Morgued Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So I was browse'n around on the forums and was looking at a few comments to lead me to the question...If you believe in god, isn't it said that he has a "Divine Plan" for all of us? If so, then doesn't that contradict the whole 'Free Will' thing? I would think it would because our lives are already pre-determined. Any thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
Angel1111 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I suppose that if you believe what the bible says and believe in traditional religion, then I would guess that this divine plan is something that the person wants to do anyway. If not, then I would think that free will would be about choosing to accept the divine plan or not. I think it's all nonsense, personally. I think when a person is truly happy with what they're doing, then they feel enriched and are prone to say that it must be God's divine plan. A lot of New Age teachings say that we're all spiritual beings who set out goals for ourselves before we came to earth. It's just a matter of what you choose to believe, what makes the most sense to you, because there's no evidence to back any of it up. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 The "divine plan" is only ever post hoc rationalisations; nobody who goes on about their god's plan knows what they are talking about. They kind of admit it when they will often say that humans can never comprehend the ways of god, because we're too small and he is too awesome. So the two statements don't jive. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's just a matter of what you choose to believe, what makes the most sense to you, because there's no evidence to back any of it up. Bingo. Its called faith for a reason. You have to believe without any physical proof to back it up. It sounds crazy to some but in my heart and mind what faith I have feels right. Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So I was browse'n around on the forums and was looking at a few comments to lead me to the question...If you believe in god, isn't it said that he has a "Divine Plan" for all of us? If so, then doesn't that contradict the whole 'Free Will' thing? I would think it would because our lives are already pre-determined. Any thoughts? Religion and free/critical thought are not compatible. Prepare yourself for 50 pages of circular logic. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Religion and free/critical thought are not compatible. Fundamentalists perhaps, but otherwise this statement is just flat-out wrong. Free thought is not the sole domain of skeptics. I know they love to parrot that bilge over at Secular Web, but it just doesn't fly. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Simon Attwood Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So I was browse'n around on the forums and was looking at a few comments to lead me to the question...If you believe in god, isn't it said that he has a "Divine Plan" for all of us? If so, then doesn't that contradict the whole 'Free Will' thing? I would think it would because our lives are already pre-determined. Any thoughts? What if the divine plan was to offer the opportunity to transcend the determined and discover free will? Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Fundamentalists perhaps, but otherwise this statement is just flat-out wrong. Free thought is not the sole domain of skeptics. I know they love to parrot that bilge over at Secular Web, but it just doesn't fly. Cheers, D. What about the inevitable cases where your own beliefs or thoughts directly contradict the teachings of your religion? How do you reconcile that? Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 People handle that in their own way. Sometimes they never manage to reconcile it. What, however, does that question have to do with free thought and religion being incompatible? Or are you assuming that every religious person just jettisons their own opinions and follows doctrine blindly? Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 People handle that in their own way. Sometimes they never manage to reconcile it. What, however, does that question have to do with free thought and religion being incompatible? Or are you assuming that every religious person just jettisons their own opinions and follows doctrine blindly? Cheers, D. It seems that a lot of people do, and the real danger is that they don't know they're doing it! So sometimes you believe and sometimes you don't? Are you allowed to cherry pick that way? If you ask me, it's all random chance. I do not believe in predestination. Things DON'T happen for a reason, but you can certainly FIND reason in something after it has happened. Link to post Share on other sites
Ronni_W Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I think, yes, there is some type of Divine Plan...and we keep screwing with it through our Free Will. I don't think there's any schedule or methodology attached to the Plan...the Universe has no interest in when or how we get there, and I'm not even sure it cares *if* we get there. It probably doesn't (in my personal belief system.) Kind of like, parents have all these noble and worthy aspirations for their kids but we can't really say that the kids' lives/experiences are predetermined just because the parents envisioned a kind-of 'plan'. And it ain't necessarily that the kids will actually get to be, do and have all the good stuff that their parents had hoped for them. Parents care and often take it personally when kids exercise their free will and mess with the parents' hopes and dreams. But I don't think that is happening about the 'Divine Hopes and Dreams'. Needless to add, this is just my personal. I'm totally open to the fact that there are billions other belief systems...and who knows how many Realities. Link to post Share on other sites
Toki Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 replace the word "plan" with "interest" and the ideology should make more sense. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 It seems that a lot of people do, and the real danger is that they don't know they're doing it! So sometimes you believe and sometimes you don't? Are you allowed to cherry pick that way? Why not? And isn't that an exercise of critical/free thought? If not, what is? Furthermore, there are a lot of non-theists who are really no different: they pimp and cheer for science without really knowing much or anything about it. I'd go so far as to say in some extreme cases that without religion to oppose they probably wouldn't even know what their opinion was. Avoid making blanket generalisations. Life's too interesting for that. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Malenfant Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 the idea that a divine plan exists for us all is all well and good when people say that it doesnt conflict with free will, as we were only doing what we were supposed to do in the first place, according to that 'plan' But for me, that comes unstuck when people do horrendous things. How can anyone accept that god's plan was for someone to be a murderer? in what way would that plan benefit anyone? Then, its turned on it's head and comments are given along the lines of 'god created us to have free will' and that is how the atrocities are explained away. so its god's will if people do great things and are generally nice to each other, and even when people have accidents 'god works in mysterious ways' etc. But when a person does bad things just for the sake of it, they have forsaken god and his will. But how can any of us forsake god's will if there is a divine plan? and how can that plan involve people doing awful things? I just cant reconcile the two things. Link to post Share on other sites
Toki Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Victor Hugo put it best: "Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made you in his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly." Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Why not? And isn't that an exercise of critical/free thought? If not, what is? Furthermore, there are a lot of non-theists who are really no different: they pimp and cheer for science without really knowing much or anything about it. I'd go so far as to say in some extreme cases that without religion to oppose they probably wouldn't even know what their opinion was. Avoid making blanket generalisations. Life's too interesting for that. Cheers, D. It would be great if people used critical thought to cherry-pick, but most people do whatever they feel like and never make decisions about what they believe. In fact, a lot of people believe several things that contradict each other, and when you point this out they get ANGRY, and start quoting scripture at you. Ayn Rand said it best. "As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation — or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wings should have grown." Link to post Share on other sites
Ronni_W Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 But for me, that comes unstuck when people do horrendous things. How can anyone accept that god's plan was for someone to be a murderer? Yes, exactly! To me, that's when we are NOT sticking to 'the plan', when we're messing it up -- it's a (mis)use of free will that takes us further away from whatever are the ultimate visions and goals of 'the plan'. It is humans doing bad crap to other humans with no "divinity" in sight or mind. For the moment, I do believe in a 'bigger plan' and in free will. To me it speaks to humans' (free will) power to act outside of the plan, to override it and act without knowledge or regard of it. The challenge is that humans can also be greedy, violent and vengeful...our free will often works from these but, to me, they certainly were not envisioned and are not part of the 'bigger plan' (at least, not the one in which I currently believe.) Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 It would be great if people used critical thought to cherry-pick, but most people do whatever they feel like and never make decisions about what they believe. In fact, a lot of people believe several things that contradict each other, and when you point this out they get ANGRY, and start quoting scripture at you. I'm seeing a lot of this, and to be honest I don't believe you. Granted, some people are exactly as you describe, but most? I think you have a long way to go before your argument is compelling. I think you are letting encounters with a handful of people colour your perceptions rather too easily. Bottom line: some people are intellectually lazy and others are not. This does not, however, have much bearing on whether they are religious or not. Agree or disagree? Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I'm seeing a lot of this, and to be honest I don't believe you. Granted, some people are exactly as you describe, but most? I think you have a long way to go before your argument is compelling. I think you are letting encounters with a handful of people colour your perceptions rather too easily. Bottom line: some people are intellectually lazy and others are not. This does not, however, have much bearing on whether they are religious or not. Agree or disagree? Cheers, D. Most religiously dedicated people that I have encountered are like this. They follow the rules blindly. To me, this whole debacle about gay marriage is a perfect example. How and why a RELIGIOUS issue ever made it to government is completely beyond me. If two people are in love they have the right to get married. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 So I was browse'n around on the forums and was looking at a few comments to lead me to the question...If you believe in god, isn't it said that he has a "Divine Plan" for all of us? If so, then doesn't that contradict the whole 'Free Will' thing? I would think it would because our lives are already pre-determined. Any thoughts? Not a crazy thought at all, in fact a very insightful, intelligent question. I don't quite understand it all, although God knows the present, past and future...(before I formed you in the womb, I knew you)....He knew the mistakes, failures, victories, ect....because of this pre-determined "knowledge" per sey, the divine plan is followed, in spite of us. His will, will be accomplished no matter what. I walk in His divine plan daily, even with my imperfection, because it is not about me, it is about Him. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 To me, this whole debacle about gay marriage is a perfect example. Like when in Canada, the church permitted gay marriage before the government did? Oh, wait... Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
torranceshipman Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 A religion says that. Depends on whether you believe a religious order consisting of humans, or accept that we really don't know this stuff and that the best idea might be to take the mind and body that we were given and do our very best to do something very good with it all. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves...thats what I believe. I do think God is up there giving us a good hand along though Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts