Girls Night Out?

[Twenty-ten]

Interesting, I've been clubbing quite often (obviously not twice a month, like I said it's probably more like 3 or 4 times a year and maybe twice a year with my husband).

 

I've never once exchanged phone number or bumping/grinding longer than 2 seconds (so the second the guy grab my hip, I would move away). If you want to cheat, you will find a way. You don't need to go clubbing for that.

 

cuppa I totally get what you are saying and I even agree, just because a girl is married does not mean her life is over! In moderation you can still have a little "single-style" fun here and there sure.

 

The only difference is that some women are extroverted. yes, I can take zumba class & kickboxing class to blow off some steam in my sweat pants but I do love dressing nice, with heels, makeups, and my jewelries. I love the part where my girlfriend and I do our hair together, put smoky eye shadows, and put some nice jewelries on. Do I do this for other guys? Not necessarily, some women are just extroverted. I dress up everyday to my office, I do this because I feel good. I don't dress up thinking oh maybe so so will notice my legs in this skirt...eww no, tbh, I sometimes dress up for other girls because we love fashion.

But see this is the thing I get that as a married person it is nice to once in a while be in an environment that makes you feel alive, young and sexually appreciated by the opposite sex. But let's be honest then and admit that is mostly what we feel when we are in these singles environments. Infidelity can happen at the most benign of places, if there is will to cheat of course you will find a way to do so regardless of where you are. But it does raise a lot of questions when a married person craves this kind of "attention" on a regular basis. What exactly are they after?

 

This kind of reassurance from the opposite sex or "excitement" is not something that a happily commited person should be seeking away from their spouse on a frequent basis. I know people say that they like to dance that is why they go, but seriously if you take away men and alcohol from the equation where this dancing happens what you are left with is the same as what happens in "dance class". So really are people there because they love to dance or because of what the whole environment does for them?

 

 

Sure 2 times a month is probably way too often. But my original post is to respond to someone who said married woman should never go clubbing because it's outside the marriage script which I don't agree.

I don't agree either. You are married not exiled from society.

[cuppa]

Oh come on who are you trying to convince? I don't buy that for a second. It is attention seeking behavior and you admitted you liked the compliments so lets be honest here. What does extroversion have to do with it? The problem is that many women do not WANT to cheat but they do anyway. Alcohol and a clubbing environment certainly make it more likely. Judgment is impaired and men are in heavy pursuit mode. Just look at the posts on these forums. Women (and men) will throw out all sorts of rationalizations like "it just happened", "I never intended to cheat", "He came along at the right time and place", etc....

 

I am not implying anything about your intentions, but I am saying that men have good reason to be concerned about these outings sometimes.

 

Seriously? Attention seeking behavior? of course women like compliments, who don't? I guarantee you, every woman wants to be noticed, even the engineers or the so called "tomboy" in my dept who wear jeans &t-shirt & sneaker everyday, they actually come to me for make up tips & how to dress better. Guess who confessed to want to have an affair? the quiet one, the one who never goes clubbing, she actually actively look for an opportunity to have an affair!

 

Even my husband loves compliment, the only difference is that people don't compliment men often so typically only I (the wife) compliment him while women compliment other women (even men can randomly say I love your shoes).

 

I've been going clubbing since I was 21 (so that's been like 11 years) and believe it or not, I never once hook up with anyone in the club. A group of my gfs love to go clubbing too and they don't cheat, it's less now because most of us are married.

 

So we have to agree to disagree. I'd think lounges are more dangerous for affairs than clubbing, it's the same alcohol and people actually approach you and buy you drinks while in the club, it's really too loud to have any kind of conversation.

[Hop_prophet]

I've been going clubbing since I was 21 (so that's been like 11 years) and believe it or not, I never once hook up with anyone in the club. A group of my gfs love to go clubbing too and they don't cheat, it's less now because most of us are married.

 

So we have to agree to disagree. I'd think lounges are more dangerous for affairs than clubbing, it's the same alcohol and people actually approach you and buy you drinks while in the club, it's really too loud to have any kind of conversation.

 

I think you handle it fine and your behavior would not bother me. Of course everyone likes compliments (even introverts!). Part of the intention of getting all dressed up and going to a club is for the attention. You want to be noticed and admired. That isn't really a bad thing as long as the relationship is respected.

 

I do agree with you that lounges are just as likely to bring about infidelity. The point I was making is that certain environments are more conducive to it then others and going to these places excessively is a cause for concern.

[Dexter Morgan]

My single girlfriend wants to go there and we do know how to protect each other. It's not exactly a meatmarket perse, it's an upscale club, we go there for dancing and it's not our fault that guys are hitting on us.

 

uh huh, but I'm sure you don't see it as a bad thing.

 

you are getting hit on? Well what gives the guys the idea that you are not already taken?

 

They hit on you because they think you are single, and there is a reason, whatever it may be, that they think you are single.

 

point is, guys go to these places because of the women, and women go because of the men there. Its about putting yourself in a situation where the number 1 reason to go is to get hit on or hook up.

[Dexter Morgan]

The only difference is that some women are extroverted. yes, I can take zumba class & kickboxing class to blow off some steam in my sweat pants but I do love dressing nice, with heels, makeups, and my jewelries. I love the part where my girlfriend and I do our hair together, put smoky eye shadows, and put some nice jewelries on. Do I do this for other guys? Not necessarily

 

Not necessarily huh?

[carhill]

So, boys, how about a nice night of salsa dancing with some lovely and proficient Latin ladies? Our better halves won't mind in the least since we're doing it for ourselves in the quest to become better dancers, husbands and lovers. No alcohol will be consumed, though a bit of sweat might be shed. I love equality.

 

OP, you still reading?

[cuppa]

Not necessarily huh?

yes, I don't know why some men are full of themselves. majority of women dress for other women, it's a known fact.

[cuppa]

uh huh, but I'm sure you don't see it as a bad thing.

 

you are getting hit on? Well what gives the guys the idea that you are not already taken?

 

They hit on you because they think you are single, and there is a reason, whatever it may be, that they think you are single.

 

point is, guys go to these places because of the women, and women go because of the men there. Its about putting yourself in a situation where the number 1 reason to go is to get hit on or hook up.

 

I always wear my wedding ring + engagement ring and it's quite hard to miss it.

[NervisPervis]

Yes Carhill. I'm still reading. Every word. I was going to be selfish and take all of this great banter and only use it to help my situation, but knowing how it is reading other threads, I'm sure you all would like an update

 

As I mentioned, we've talked. She wasn't so much accusing me of an interrogation as much as revealing so little in response to my simple questions, that if I asked for details to her evasive answers, it would turn into an interrogation, so I backed off. I'm trying to take the high road here as best I can before it has to turn into something ugly. Most of you posters have convinced me that my gut is right here. The other clubbing defenders have their heads up their asses. They are being disingenuous of their motives for going out to meat markets (good job to you guys on calling them out on that). I think clubbers like to cover their butts for when their husband/BF start accusing them of desiring the attraction of strange men they'll have a history of claiming innocence: "even when I was SINGLE it was all wholesome fun".

 

And yes. I have spied. Or tried to anyhow. But they weren't at the two local clubs they could have been at. They've expanded their horizons, I guess. I live in a large metropolitan area and there are many bars and clubs they could have gone to. Since she doesn't tell me where she's going, she doesn't have to defend not being in any particular place at any particular time.

 

Tonight is "every other week". I've got a friend I've been confiding in. He's got kids also, so unlike my wife, he is home every Saturday night. I've got him on call so when she's heading out the door and telling me she's leaving (she has to tell me. She has an infant and toddler at home) I am going to tell her I have plans with "Bill". "Sorry, it's my turn. Why didn't I tell you? I didn't think we had to do that". At which point I'll go to a movie, then get a bite to eat, then just drink at a sports bar until closing. Home at 2AM w/ no explanation. She doesn't know Bill that well, but even if she were to call him, he has directions to tell her that we both went home after the movie. "No, I thought he was just going home after he dropped me off".

 

Now that I've typed this novela, I realize you will all need an update tomorrow also. So until then, thanks for the advice and keep hammering those clubbing defenders.

[NervisPervis]

yes, I don't know why some men are full of themselves. majority of women dress for other women, it's a known fact.

 

Thats BS and you know it.

 

And as for the wedding ring, I'm guessing the guys are looking for that. No expectations of a phone call the next day. No commitments. I'm guessing she gets more action by leaving her ring on.

[cuppa]

Thats BS and you know it.

 

And as for the wedding ring, I'm guessing the guys are looking for that. No expectations of a phone call the next day. No commitments. I'm guessing she gets more action by leaving her ring on.

 

Keep hammering club defender huh? you know what...I'm not your wife and I just throw my 0.02. I have other things to do other than being hammered by bunch of strangers in a message board.

 

this will be my last post in this thread and yeah, I wish you luck with your marriage. Have a nice life!

[zwieback.toast]

I would not have a problem with her going out but her secretive behavior would worry me. She is distancing herself from you and that is more of an issue than the clubbing.

 

 

There may be "clubbing" going on, but it really sounds to me like OP's wife is getting "clubbed" with another man's salami on a bi-weekly basis.

 

Private Investigator? Definitely.

 

Seriously.

 

That she is having an affair is a 100% certainty based on the behavioral clues provided by OP.

[imagine]

Nervis, please have a look at the Marriage Builders site and check out their articles. They do not share in the concept of independant activities, rather they boost a minimum of a 15 hours alone time with your good lady.

 

They also share some very good ideas about marriage and a POJA (Policy Of Joint Agreement) Give us a call!

[zwieback.toast]

Yes Carhill. I'm still reading. Every word. I was going to be selfish and take all of this great banter and only use it to help my situation, but knowing how it is reading other threads, I'm sure you all would like an update

 

Your wife is a cheater. There is no doubt. It has already happened and she is currently in an on-going affair. It is possible that her late nights started out with random guys but she is definitely having an affair with a specific other man. This is what explains the regularity of the bi-weekly nights out. She is having her trysts on those nights. Perhaps other times as well which you don't know about.

 

 

As I mentioned, we've talked. She wasn't so much accusing me of an interrogation as much as revealing so little in response to my simple questions, that if I asked for details to her evasive answers, it would turn into an interrogation, so I backed off.

She is "gaslighting" you. "Evasive." Blameshifting (i.e. making you feel guilty). Prime characteristics of a cheater.

 

 

I'm trying to take the high road here as best I can before it has to turn into something ugly.

There is no "high road." You are now in street fight for your marriage, if you still want it. This plays out in the gutter, not the high road.

 

 

Most of you posters have convinced me that my gut is right here.

Well right or wrong, you have to trust your gut. The intangible/unconscious holistic clues that you are picking up that you can't even begin to convey over a "cold" medium like the internet.

 

But aside from that every single thing you have specifically described about your wife and what she is doing is a red flag, positive indicator for a cheater. Further, by a process of exclusion, there is no alternative explanation for her behavior, other than cheating.

 

The principal of Ockham's Razor (sometimes spelt "Occam's") tells us that the simplest explanation for a set of events is usually the most likely. The simplest explanation for what is going on is that your wife is having an affair. Perhaps she has had multiple affairs by this time, if you include one night stands, making out, and/or other physical contact short of full on intercourse. Also if you include emotional affairs which can be just as bad.

 

 

The other clubbing defenders have their heads up their asses. They are being disingenuous of their motives for going out to meat markets (good job to you guys on calling them out on that). I think clubbers like to cover their butts for when their husband/BF start accusing them of desiring the attraction of strange men they'll have a history of claiming innocence: "even when I was SINGLE it was all wholesome fun".

This is irrelevant. Other people have their own perspectives and their own agenda, they are entitled to it. You know what you know. Your wife is cheating, and you know that.

 

I also know that your wife is cheating from the behavior patterns that you have described. There is no doubt. I hereby give you permission to consider your wife to be a cheater and not be gaslighted, blameshifted, emotionally abused, and deceived into feeling guilty about designating your wife as a cheater.

 

She IS cheating on you. The issue now is what to do about it. I.e. do you feel you need to gather proof. (I don't really think proof is necessary other than to try to get her to stop or to confront her with. But you know what you know.) The easiest way is to hire a P.I. because your wife has a predictable behavior pattern. So it should not be TOO expensive. The PI can follow her, take photos, etc., and determine the other man's identity.

 

Indeed if you were to actually consult with a matrimonial PI and describe what you have described here, he will shake his head, smile ruefully, and say: "Sh*t not another cheater." He (she? maybe a woman would blend in better?) will have heard your exact same story 1000 times before.

 

 

And yes. I have spied. Or tried to anyhow. But they weren't at the two local clubs they could have been at. They've expanded their horizons, I guess.

Which is why you need a PI. You're not a professional. Get the right professional to do the job. Also, the mere fact that you don't know where they are on these nights out is a 100% positive red flag that she is cheating. As a matter of fact for all you know she could be at her boyfriend's house, not at any club at all.

 

 

I live in a large metropolitan area and there are many bars and clubs they could have gone to. Since she doesn't tell me where she's going, she doesn't have to defend not being in any particular place at any particular time.

Another 100% red flag for cheating is her complete opacity. What could she possibly be hiding other than cheating? She's sure as he*ll not working a second job to earn money to buy you a nice surprise Christmas present.

 

 

Tonight is "every other week". I've got a friend I've been confiding in. He's got kids also, so unlike my wife, he is home every Saturday night. I've got him on call so when she's heading out the door and telling me she's leaving (she has to tell me. She has an infant and toddler at home) I am going to tell her I have plans with "Bill". "Sorry, it's my turn. Why didn't I tell you? I didn't think we had to do that".

....and if you do this, you will very likely experience a tirade/tantrum/explosion from your wife which will frighten you. She will be cussing you out like a sailor, throwing crockery, the whole nine yards. I would not be surprised if she physically attacks you in her storm of rage that her little worm of a husband is doing anything to stand up for himself and interfering with her bi-weekly f*ck-fest.

 

 

 

At which point I'll go to a movie, then get a bite to eat, then just drink at a sports bar until closing. Home at 2AM w/ no explanation. She doesn't know Bill that well, but even if she were to call him, he has directions to tell her that we both went home after the movie. "No, I thought he was just going home after he dropped me off".

Be very careful. Do not be surprised if she simply goes where she is going anyway and disregards her child care responsibilities. Women like this one do exactly that when they need their p*ssy filled. Be prepared to back down so that the children are not left alone. It can, and does, happen all the time that a cheating women (or man) will ignore their childcare obligations. You must protect the children above all and you can deal with the skank at a later time once you have marshalled your evidence.

 

 

 

Now that I've typed this novela, I realize you will all need an update tomorrow also. So until then, thanks for the advice and keep hammering those clubbing defenders.

I suggest investing in a bullet proof vest and hiding the stainless steel kitchen knife set because you are likely to have a very explosive confrontation. Be sure you have witnesses (your buddy?) and a voice activated recorder because a woman like this WILL physically attack you, possibly injure herself deliberately, call the police and have you arrested, and file false abuse charges against you.

 

Be very, very careful. Never reveal your sources.

 

Edit: Keyloggers on all computers she uses; check all cell phone bills going back as far as you can for strange numbers and texting usage; try to crack all e-mail accounts; look for "secret" cell phones/cell phone chargers; search her personal belongings/closets/drawers for stashes of affair related materials; check all credit card bills as far back as you can (yours and hers) for unexplained charges at restaurants, lingerie stores, hotels, travel, etc.

 

 

Double Edit: See if you can retain a PI to follow her TONIGHT. There's no time like the present. If she senses you're really onto her, she may change her behavior patterns/go "underground" with the affair.

 

Triple Edit:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycroft_Holmes

 

 

"Possessing deductive powers exceeding even those of his younger brother, Mycroft is nonetheless incapable of performing detective work similar to that of Sherlock since he is unwilling to put in the physical effort necessary to bring cases to their conclusions."

Edited February 6, 2010 by zwieback.toast

[jnj express]

Hey Nervis OK you are gonna get some payback, it might make you feel better for tonight----but guess what tomorrow the problem is still gonna be there.

 

You are not addressing the problem here. Why does your wife wanna be single at least 2 times every month.

 

If she needs time out, it is to be with the girls, in pursuits that are achieved w/out males being involved. If she needs dancing then YOU take her dancing. Cut off her reasons for a need for the single lifestyle.

 

Previous poster says she is cheating--she well may be---but you can't confront, cuz you have absolutely no proof. If you confronted now, and she is cheating, you would just drive her underground.

 

You need to stop playing games, and face a major fact. You mge., has problems, and the 2 of you are not sitting down and addressing what is wrong, and what is causing your wife to want to act like a single, AND PUT HER SELF IN HARMS WAY IN BARS, CLUBS, AND PICK UP JOINTS.

 

You can go thru tons of posts by betrayed innocent spouses, most of the time there were marital problems, that they were clueless about. Then the storm hits, lives are wrecked and all of a sudden they rushed to change things and try to fix the problems. Way too late.

 

You are lucky you know there is a problem, make your wife help you fix it, and if she absolutely won't then you deal from there.

[NervisPervis]

Sorry to disappoint, but nothing last night. Keep in mind this hasn't been a regular enough occurrence for it to be a hard scheduled girls night out every other weekend. But it is the first time since this whole thing started that the time between parties was extended instead of shortened. One small abberation is promising, but hardly spells the end to this madness. Maybe what little talking we've done was enough for her to realize I'm on to her. That I know "going out dancing" means a little more than going out dancing. I don't know. I'll have my friend on call for next weekend as well.

 

JNJ. There is obviously a problem here, but I'm not sure talking about it can do anything. We can have the most perfect marriage in the world. But one thing I will never be able to be for her is the excitement of partying with new, strange men every couple of weeks. And as clubbing deniers such as cuppa have pointed out, I will NEVER be able to get her admit to what she's doing. It's all innocent. Even if I were to end this, it would be my fault for stifling her creativity, or whatever she'll claim. As zwieback (i think) pointed out, I'll get a lot more information from her by "legitimately" standing in the way of one of her parties at the last minute than I will by telling her not to go. Or even from a rational discussion. I want to see what raw emotion tells me when I tell her no, not logical discussion.

 

Zwieback. I'm guessing you're Butnutter reurned from you censorin/banning. I know you're thinking I'm being naive when I say that my wife isn't the kind of person to have a planned affair, but if you knew her, you'd agree. There is nothing in her life for me to think she would. Possible? Of course. But so unlikely that I'm not going to spend my energies worrying about it or trying to prove it. Now, there is history that makes her wanting to party at nightclubs possible. And since I'm not a clubber, that urge has been repressed since we've been married. Keep in mind that my naivete doesn't extend to anything that could happen on a crowded, sweaty, alcohol infused dance floor at 1:30 AM. And althought I don't think she's looking to suck someone's toungue or whatever else can happen there, it is always possible. The right guy, the right mood, the right song, and her husband doesn't even know where the fu.ck she is. And only her wingwoman as a witness.

 

Thanks again everyone. You're all giving me the strength to get through this. Thank god people like cuppa are the exception or I'd never feel I had a right to challenge this.

[jnj express]

Hey Nervis---you do this the way you need to do it----I will tell you this----When she took her vows all the single BS went out the window, and she willingly agreed.

 

Mge. is hard work especially as time wears on---older mge.,s 10 years and longer, are dull, boring, same old thing, but that is what mge. is---the partners try to keep it interesting for each other. She doesn't get to go out looking for men, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If she wants that then she gets a divorse, and does what she wants as a single and no one cares.

 

You had better be able to talk to her, for again that is what mge. is----DO NOT FORGET THE TWO OF YOU HAVE TWO SMALL CHILDREN, WHOSE LIVES WILL BE WRECKED IF YOU CAN'T GET YOUR MGE., in order. In all mge., it is hot passion in the early years---It is now and later on where the hard work comes in.

[amerikajin]

She's married with a child. I don't know of any parent whom I would consider to be of high caliber who goes out and parties until 2 a.m. on a regular basis. I would think that this parent - male or female - needs to grow the hell up and think of her responsibilities first. That's the first thing.

 

The second thing is the evasiveness. She's going to great lengths not to be found, to cover her tracks. She can't tell you where she's going or when she's coming back. All good relationships are based on transparency.

 

How do you deal with it? Man up. Don't ask, tell. You need to pick the time right and the words carefully, but you're going to have to start preparing yourself for a strong and decisive course of action - and you're going to have to stick to your guns no matter how hard this gets. Be prepared to put your foot down, and be prepared to both deal, and live with, consequences.

[Dexter Morgan]

yes, I don't know why some men are full of themselves. majority of women dress for other women, it's a known fact.

 

but you said, "not necessarily". IOW, you DO dress for other men on occasion.

 

Otherwise, you should have said, "no" to your own question

[Dexter Morgan]

I always wear my wedding ring + engagement ring and it's quite hard to miss it.

 

I can give you that one. Seems that the guys that hit on you are too stupid to look at your left hand, or they simply don't care and see it as a conquest to try to hook up with a married woman.

 

but then again, it just helps to prove the point, that is exactly why people go to clubs.

[Dexter Morgan]

She's married with a child. I don't know of any parent whom I would consider to be of high caliber who goes out and parties until 2 a.m. on a regular basis.

 

dayum amerikajin!! I absolutely agree with you!! (politics may be another story - peace:cool:)

 

Nervis, here is your litmus test. Tell your wife you don't like her going to clubs and shutting them down and then some. Tell her you know what goes on at clubs and that it doesn't sit well with you.

 

You aren't forbidding her to go, you are telling her how you feel about it.

 

See what her reaction is. If a woman of mine said she is uncomfortable with me going to a club(if I in fact went to them) and I loved her, then she would mean more to me that clubbing. There are other things I can do with my buds that she shouldn't have a problem with, going to a casino, fishing, a ball game, etc.

 

If she gets defensive, then there is your answer. She is either messing around, or hoping to and your feelings are signaling to her that you might try to stop her from getting male attention or physical contact.

[amerikajin]

So we have to agree to disagree. I'd think lounges are more dangerous for affairs than clubbing, it's the same alcohol and people actually approach you and buy you drinks while in the club, it's really too loud to have any kind of conversation.

 

I agree that there can be harmless clubbing. But I think it really depends on some of the circumstances. I don't mind my woman hanging out with other females, even if another male is involved, as long as I know who she's hanging out with. There should be disclosure and transparency in any relationship. If one person is hiding things, then you've got problems. As Woggle pointed out, I think the bigger problem here isn't just the clubbing, but the below-the-board manner in which this is being conducted.

[amerikajin]

dayum amerikajin!! I absolutely agree with you!! (politics may be another story - peace:cool:)

 

I'm actually not as liberal as you might think. I'm an economic "liberal", and a semi social/civil libertarian, but with age, I'm becoming more and more of a social conservative - at least in some ways.

[carhill]

OP, if you're still reading, do you, your wife's 'wingwoman' and her H socialize together? Do you have them (or they you) over for dinner, together or separately? If yes, what's your read on her/her H/their M? Within our social circle, I got strong impressions of healthy and unhealthy dynamics by personal interaction. What are your impressions, accepting that you're uncomfortable with your W 'closing down' clubs?

[jnj express]

Nervis----maybe you should try to get a tail on your wife, before doing anything else. Others say it is allright to go and mess around in bars, IF, she is with the right group of friends. That may be so, but even in that situation you don't really know who she is with, and where she has gone.

 

What if an emegency comes up in/re: your children, you can't even get ahold of your wife to tell her what is going on, and to help you out.

 

You can read thru thousands of stories thru time where the cheating party said they were going one place with friends, and used that as a coverup to work their Affair.

 

Somehow or other, get a tail on her next time she goes barhopping. Does she give you enuff warning to get someone in place to follow her????

 

What she is doing is not proper for a married woman, but you probably do need to find out what exactly she IS doing, and then you go from there.