Aonz Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 When I say God I mean the God created the universe and now awaits us in Heaven. The idea is to simply agree on a very broad definition in order that we will be of the same mind when we talk about 'God'. Many, many people over the centuries have claimed to be prophets of God, it doesn't mean they were. Jesus claimed that he was the son of God, but it doesn't mean he was, or that he even believed it himself. That thousands of his followers believed he was the son of God doesn't mean he was. People of that era believed in prophets and prophecies, they were desperately waiting for events to happen, just as prophesied. They saw 'signs' in everything which encouraged their expectations, a classic example of a 'self fulfilling prophecy'. The bible is very persuasive, but not proof, of the existence of God, but a very strong case for arguing for the existence of a man called Jesus. If God created the universe and all the laws of nature, do you think it possible that He can change those laws once they are in place? In just one location, for a brief period of time, and then change them back again? And all this having no lasting effect? The universe carries on just as before as if nothing had happened? If He can, why not feed the starving masses. He was happy to intervene in the past, according to the bible. Miracles of this sort, 'real 'miracles, have not taken place for over 2000 years, if we are to believe they ever took place at all. Why is that? Perhaps there was a God once, perhaps there is now, perhaps there isn't. Maybe there never was one. Maybe it's all just wishful thinking. Perhaps if God ever did exist He doesn't exist now. There is no indication that He is. No messages booming down from the sky, no miracles, no sign whatsoever. Why not? If He expects us to believe in Him, surely it is not asking too much that He gives us a sign every once in a while? Is it? To expect us to take it on trust for over 2000 years is asking a bit much. Perhaps He died, maybe He can't, so where is He then? I suppose He could be busy elsewhere, making another universe or something. Doesn't seem very God-like to abandon us in this way though does it, we could use a little help just now. If you believe in God then you presumably believe in heaven. Here's a question: Had I been raised in a secluded society where nobody believed in God or had ever heard of religion, would I, by my own experiences and philosophy, have come to believe in the existence of God? The answer is, I believe, no. I would have no reason to. The next question I ask myself is: Having been raised in total ignorance of any religion or God, when I die, would I go to heaven? If He refused me entre into Heaven that presumably means I would go to hell and I would consider that to be grossly unfair. Another thing at what stage of development do we 'qualify' for judgment. At birth, before we have actually done anything? At one year of age or 22 weeks in the womb? Define 'bad'. It's all a bit arbitrary isn't it. So there you have it. You either believe or you don't. Logic has nothing to do with it. It seems to me that it really does not matter one way or the other what we happen to believe, the truth is the truth regardless of belief. There are so many different religions to choose from, and if any of them are right it can only be one of them. All the others are wrong. The mathematical odds dictate that you have probably chosen the wrong one! Does that make you a bad person? Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 You're just now considering these questions? Hmmm. You'll have to figure out the answers for yourself, I'm afraid. I guess you did that already, sorry! Link to post Share on other sites
TUSCAN Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 if god exists.. who created god??? what was before god?? you can go insane pondering the questions.. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Does God exist? No. Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 god did exist, but he left the forum a month or so ago. here is a very fine and thorough web site on your topic, Aonz - it discusses your specific questions and others; see what you think: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/overview.html some of your particular arguments are discussed here: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html you may have already seen it. cheers Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted January 2, 2004 Author Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by jenny http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/overview.html some of your particular arguments are discussed here: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html you may have already seen it. Afraid not Sometimes I wish I did have faith, it would make some things a lot easier. But there is to much suffering in this world for me to accept that a God with presumably unlimited power would sit idly by and do absolutely nothing to help. Hell is another concept that I can't accept, how could a so called loving God send anyone to suffer forever? that isn't the act of a just God if you ask me. I don't think people truly comprehend how long forever is or what it would mean. Link to post Share on other sites
yes Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 "does God exist?", you asked. "why do you care?", I ask. -yes Link to post Share on other sites
befuddled11 Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by Aonz Hell is another concept that I can't accept, how could a so called loving God send anyone to suffer forever? that isn't the act of a just God if you ask me. I don't think people truly comprehend how long forever is or what it would mean. Who said God sends anyone to hell? It is totally up to us, humans, where we spend eternity. God has given us "free will." It's very clear in the Bible, on how to get to heaven one day. It's about salvation. Read John 3:16..it doesn't get any more basic than that. God doesn't dictate how we live our lives, we're the ones who choose that. How can you blame God for anyone who makes the decision to turn away from God and have no use for him in their life? He sent his son Jesus down to earth, to live as a man, to die on the cross so that all of us, if we believe in him and follow him, can have everlasting life in heaven. If that's not proof of his love for us as humans, I don't know what is. He doesnt' want any of his children (us humans) to spend eternity in hell.....he loves us all like a human father would love us....(even more!)....but he gives us free will and choice. Don't blame him for the choices that you or others make?! Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 my mates and i call ourselves born again logicians the best response to uncertainty is indefinite investigation Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 the best response to uncertainty is indefinite investigation Shouldn't that be flipped: The best response to an indefinite investigation is uncertainty. But then, I'm much too linear. It's the lawyer in me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted January 2, 2004 Author Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by befuddled11 Who said God sends anyone to hell? It is totally up to us, humans, where we spend eternity. God has given us "free will." It's very clear in the Bible, on how to get to heaven one day. It's about salvation. Read John 3:16..it doesn't get any more basic than that. God doesn't dictate how we live our lives, we're the ones who choose that. How can you blame God for anyone who makes the decision to turn away from God and have no use for him in their life? He sent his son Jesus down to earth, to live as a man, to die on the cross so that all of us, if we believe in him and follow him, can have everlasting life in heaven. If that's not proof of his love for us as humans, I don't know what is. He doesnt' want any of his children (us humans) to spend eternity in hell.....he loves us all like a human father would love us....(even more!)....but he gives us free will and choice. Don't blame him for the choices that you or others make?! I've turned away from Him so I'm going to Hell right? Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 lol; sweet. nicely done; i sit corrected! Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 The concept of God and the interpretation thereof.....is a personal call between you and 'your' God. Each person has a right to chose or not to chose a form of religion. I respect everyone's personal choice in this matter. I would never try to change someone else's belief....nor could they change mine. Personally, I DO believe in God and follow the faith of Christianity. I believe in Jesus, being Born Again and MY God's Word....which is the Bible. I try to live up to MY God's expectation and often fail miserably. Thankfully MY God....is a God of great love and grace. The problem with discussing religion is that it often seems like finger pointing and being judgemental....I refuse to do that. I figure it's HIS job...not mine. If I were you and had specific questions regarding the interpretation of the Christian Bible....I would visit some of the sites which are designed to give you some answers based. If you want some of those sites, feel free to PM me. Link to post Share on other sites
Skittles Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 For me she does... Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 it can only be one of them Says who? Maybe everybody's got a piece of the truth but we're too stupid to put it all together to get the real story. The best response to an indefinite investigation is uncertainty. LOL! So true Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted January 2, 2004 Author Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by Arabess I try to live up to MY God's expectation and often fail miserably. Thankfully MY God....is a God of great love and grace. The problem with discussing religion is that it often seems like finger pointing and being judgemental....I refuse to do that. I figure it's HIS job...not mine. I try to live up to my own expectations I live by the rules I set for myself. I think I'm a good person but I have no God telling to do the right thing, no expectation of a possible reward in the after life. I'm good person because I want to be because I choose to be. I'm afraid of dying, but not of death. Why should I if there is no Hell? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted January 2, 2004 Author Share Posted January 2, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme it can only be one of them Says who? Don't most religions claim to be the "One True Faith"? Maybe everybody's got a piece of the truth but we're too stupid to put it all together to get the real story. Yes humans are stupid. But we still have a long way to go yet this is only the beginning. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Does God exist? Post: 14 | Quote: For me she does... A little feminist theology on LS: God the "Mother." Why not! Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Don't most religions claim to be the "One True Faith"? And your point would be? They do, and that does not change my answer that they could still be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 I always figured God had to be at least as creative as Henry Ford...providing different kinds of vehicles for different kinds of lifestyles and people's personal needs. The important part is for us all to have a way to arrive at the point we want to be at... in whatever vehicle we are comfortable in. Then there are those who choose to bicycle or walk......it's ALL good!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Curt Posted January 2, 2004 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2004 Of Course He does!!! He does, just as the ocean, the mountains, etc., exist. Whether you choose to believe that or not is, I'm afraid, irrelevant in the larger context. Curt Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 For me she does...I think God is the “nice guy.” The kind of generous guy that everybody takes for granted. Satan is the seductress. The kind of person that is willing to sucker and manipulate people to get what she wants. I guess Satan got bitchy so God sent her packing. The bible is very persuasive, but not proof, of the existence of God, but a very strong case for arguing for the existence of a man called Jesus.You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. You will find out for yourself when you die. Link to post Share on other sites
SoleMate Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Yes, God exists. Like Arabess said. Wise lady, she. The questions the original poster asked have all been answered, like about 1700 years ago. The best way to explore is to read St. Augustine, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, C. S. Lewis, folks like that. They ask and answer the questions way better than we (I) can. Link to post Share on other sites
greyskies Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 I do it this way... I believe in a higher power some kind of leader whom has created all kinds of really cool stuff. In his own likeness he made us and they say your body is your temple. So this is how I live and I feel is the easiest way. Be a good person follow the ten commandments and do your best to survive in this crazy world we live in. I believe Adam and Eve sealed our fate long ago. Made there be sin and there fore we are very sinful people by nature, so seeing this he sent a son to die for these sins so that they could be forgiven. I don't think you have to go to a building on Sunday and worship any god nor do I believe in giving money to God either. To me thats such crap. So I just live the best to my ability to be a good human being to everyone I interact with. And hopefully thats all it takes to go to the promised land if not well thats on me. Link to post Share on other sites
youngandhopeful Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 I have no religious beleifs and i am happy that way. I'm not against other people being religious, but i personaly think you should live your life the way YOU want to. not how other people set rules for you. There is no evidence of a god so why devote your life to one? just my opinion, feel free to put me right where i am wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
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