Does God exist?

[SportyChick7]

Well whatever you "define" as a miracle is up to you, but there is documented accounts of Jesus turning water into wine at a wedding ceremony, raising from the dead, which is documented, and also making a blind man see. There are many other instances, but these are a few

[jenny]

if it defies physics, which have been empirically proven, then the burden of acceptable proof is on the proclaimer of the miracle. no miracle has ever been objectively and scientifically documented or proven.

 

if you believe in them, that's terrific. more power to you. that makes it a belief or a feeling, or for some people, an idea. but it does not make it a fact.

 

there's nothing wrong with metaphysical anecdotal evidence. i don't know why it seeks to redeem itself on scientific grounds; the two are just apples and oranges.

 

to use the cliche example, let's say i believed in elvis. i can prove he existed, and i can prove he was very popular.

 

i cannot prove he came back from the dead, or that he turned my tuna sandwich into a heated BLT, but if i believe those things, hopefully i would not rely on science to help my case.

 

i would instead insist: 'well, i saw him, and he touched my heart. according to the various books about elvis, elvis will live forever helping people with his music.'

 

you could not disprove my experience nor my faith-based text. why would you want to? if it helps me to believe that elvis is still alive and watching me, well, more power to me. and, indeed, if it gave me comfort to tell others about the powers of elvis, well, why not?

 

the difficulty comes when others don't believe in elvis because my methods of proof are so wildly different. elvis might exist for me, i might see him everyday in a taco and feel his burning love, but at some point i'm going to have to accept that you don't see or feel elvis anywhere, even in tacos. i'll be sad for you, because elvis was a great man, and everyone should feel his love. i'll offer to you his immense popularity as proof of his greatness, promise you that you'll get to visit graceland when you die, and even play a psalm or two - maybe 'wooden heart.' it's so moving when children sing it.

 

and you'll probably just think: so what? that didn't prove anything at all. i still have no experience seeing or knowing elvis at all. my snack food is still totally lacking visions of divinity.

 

in this case, we would just be using different systems of belief. i don't try to demonstrate newton's laws with the bible; why try to demonstrate matters of faith with science?

[Tony T]

Every moment of life is a miracle. The unverse is a miracle. I just can't prove it.

[bark]

Every moment of life is a miracle. The unverse is a miracle. I just can't prove it.

 

Very Zen...

[BlockHead]

SportyChick7

Well whatever you "define" as a miracle is up to you, but there is documented accounts of Jesus turning water into wine at a wedding ceremony, raising from the dead, which is documented, and also making a blind man see. There are many other instances, but these are a few

Maybe this is the problem. All of you are reading the bible too literally. Historically, the Gospels were written decades after Jesus’s time. If you compare Paul’s letters to Acts, you will see that the two disagree on many things. For example, Paul never talked about a shipwreck, and the author of Acts says that he was in one.

 

The Gospels were originally communicated by word of mouth. Of course they were subjected to exaggeration, and I’m sure some of it was made-up. Too many people fail to realize that the Bible has many authors, and they agree and disagree on many issues. The letters and books weren’t written for us, but for a certain audience.

jenny

if it defies physics

Once again, science is a religion. How many of you put your faith into that?

[jenny]

hmmmm. ok, yes, agreed again. let's work out the point - are you suggesting that what we must do in life is choose which religions we will follow, and that some are better than others? i accept your premise so far, where does it go?

[BlockHead]

You have to believe in something.

[moimeme]

Even if it's believing there's nothing to believe in.

[Tony T]

The only thing that matters to me is that God believes that I exist (assuming God exists, of course). I think that position is consistent with the general mindset of people today.

[Wandering Jew]

 

 

I came upon this forum while I was looking for the answer to another unrelated question, and I noticed that nobody who is Jewish had responded yet, so I thought I would put in my two cents.

 

I am a non-Orthodox Jew living in North America. Although non-Orthodox, I do consider myself religious. Most Jews are Jewish by birth, but I had only one Jewish parent, so I chose to convert as an adult. There is no distinction in Judaism between a convert and a Jew by birth.

 

I am not a rabbi or religious leader, and I don't read or speak Hebrew beyond the level needed to say prayers. If I were an ultra-orthodox or chassidic Jew, I would write the word "God" as G-d, or use an indirect Hebrew name such as "Hashem," which means simply, "the name." I don't wish to offend anyone who is more religious than I am, and I have many friends who are, but I am going to write the word out so that text is easier to follow for all.

 

By tradition, Judaism was the first monotheistic religion, and the sacred writings of Judaism, beginning with the Torah (the first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament) describe the evolving relationship between the Jewish people and God. The fundamental statement of belief in God from the Torah or Bible is the Shema, a sacred prayer from Deuteronomy, that reads ...

 

shema israel adonai eloheinu adonai echad

 

translation ...

 

o hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

 

This single sentence is the only statement in Judaism that might be described as a creed. In other respects, Jews are free to believe almost anything they want to about the nature of God. In modern times, many Jews have seen God as a transcendent spiritual force rather than as a corporeal being.

 

In practice, Jews place emphasis on a second role that God has played in the world. God is not only the creator of the universe and humankind, but also a liberator. God brought the Jews out of slavery in Egypt, and He is the liberator too of all of humanity. As humans we are meant to have free will, to make moral choices, even though we may at times choose evil by our free will.

 

Another fundamental tenet of Jewish belief is the statement from Genesis that humans are made "in the image of God." In modern times this has been interpreted to mean not that humans literally look like God, but rather that humans have some kind of imperfect ability to make the kind of moral choices that God makes.

 

Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism is not a faith-based religion. A Jew is not saved because he or she believes in God, and it is often said that God cares more about what we do than about what we believe. It is considered perfectly acceptable for a Jew to question the nature or existence of God. Indeed skepticism is said to be a process that can lead to greater faith and understanding.

 

Judaism is universalist. Jews believe that all righteous people have a place in the "world to come." If a potential convert approaches a rabbi, the rabbi is obliged to advise the convert that his own religious tradition can be an equally valid path to salvation.

 

A commonly heard aphorism is that God left creation unfinished. Jewish tradition includes an obligation to engage in activities to "heal the world" ("tikkun olam"). Since God is all powerful, He could have created a perfect world, but He did not. Even though we do not have the power to finish His work ourselves, we are obligated to do what we can to improve the world.

 

Like Christianity and Islam, traditional Judaism also believes that its most important scriptures were literally drafted and handed over by God. However Jewish tradition holds that at the time of revelation, under the leadership of Moses at Mt. Sinai, there was both a written and an oral Torah. The oral tradition that accompanies the Torah is considered to be an essential part of understanding the Torah.

 

Any rabbi from the most chassidic or orthodox to the most liberal or reform would agree that the written Torah is full of challenge and contradiction. It is through study and also debate about meaning of Torah, and other spiritual writings, that one arrives at greater understanding. There can be many different ways to look at even a simple question, and no single right answer.

 

Christians are sometimes surprised to discover that Jewish editions of the Torah contain notes and commentary. Although the Torah scrolls one sees in a synagogue are copied folio-for-folio, and are identical in their content, the written Torah is considered incomplete without reference to oral tradition. Oral tradition is embodied in thousands of years of sacred writings, including laws, commentaries, rabbincal responsa, quasi-folkloric stories, and even mystical writings.

 

This process of scholarship and commentary continues to the present day. It would be impossible to study in one lifetime all the volumes of commentary on the Torah, which are written in many languages besides Hebrew. Some of the most sacred works are still not available in English. Although a relatively small portion of the Jewish population is actively involved in this kind of study today, it is traditional for a child to be trained in and participate in study at least in some small way before becoming b'nai mitzvah.

 

Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist rabbis engage in an analysis of the Torah and Biblical texts as works of literature and law written over a long period time by multiple authors, and sometimes in obviously different styles. Even though they may profess more traditional beliefs, some modern Orthodox authorities are very much a part of this discussion and debate. The different denominations of Judaism are not sects, and are not separated by any kind of creeds or statements of faith. All Jews are Jewish.

 

In earlier times, some Christian theologians made the mistake of thinking that Judaism was a dead or fossilized religion, unchanging for thousands of years. From this, it was easy to imagine that Judaism was incomplete, and that Christianity was its completion. Jews happily accept the existence of other monotheistic faiths, and many Jews are proud of the common origins that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam share. But Jews do not consider efforts to convert Jews to Christianity to be friendly or well meaning.

 

This is a good point to sum it all up. If you are reading this from the perspective of another faith, I believe that you can learn more about your own religion by studying Judaism. But don't expect Judaism to have the answers. Judaism asks every question you can imagine, but in the process it only uncovers more questions. Put two Jews in a room, and you will have at least three opinions.

 

I began this commentary as a statement about faith or belief in God, so here are my two favorite statements of faith. One is a famous quotation that was found on a wall in Cologne, Germany, in a basement where Jews had hidden from the Nazis:

 

I believe in the sun, even when it is not shining.

I believe in love, even when I do not feel it.

I believe in God, even when God is silent.

 

The other is from a famous poem called Adon Olam, written in medieval Spain, and now incorporated into the Sabbath (Shabbat) service. Adon Olam, which translates roughly as "master of eternity," is another name for God. It should be noted that the Hebrew words for "world" and "eternity" are the same ("olam"). No wonder it was Einstein, a Jew, who first viewed the universe as if it existed on a continuum of space and time.

 

Adon olam, asher malach,

b'terem kol y'tzir nivra.

L'et na'asah v'cheftzo kol,

azai melech sh'mo nikra. ...

 

(You can easily find the rest of the Hebrew on Google. Here is an English version, which I have adapted from several sources.)

 

Master of Eternity, who was King before anything was created. When the world was created, everything was created through His will, and His Name Almighty was proclaimed.

 

After the world is ended, He alone will reign

He was, he is, and he will be in splendor.

 

He is One, and there is no second, to compare to Him or be His equal.

Without beginning, without end, to Him is the power and rulership.

 

He is my God and my living Redeemer, and the Rock of my fate in times of distress.

He is my banner and He is a refuge for me, my portion on the day I cry out,

 

In His hand I entrust my spirit, when I sleep and when I wake.

And my soul shall remain with my body, God is with me and I am not afraid.

 

Adon Olam is sometimes sung like a hymn or anthem, in many different and beautiful melodies, at the end of Saturday services. It is also sung as a popular song, and has probably been recorded hundreds of times, with hundreds of melodies, in every musical style. Sometimes it is sung light heartedly, to the tune of popular songs. If you go to Berkeley Hillel on the night before a big Stanford game, you'll probably hear Adon Olam sung to the tune of the Berkeley fight song. I've never heard anyone say that there is anything disrespectful about this.

 

Good night. It's bedtime.

 

Wandering Jew[color=blue][/color]

[jmargel]

Granted I didn't read any of your posts because I wanted to respond to this in another 'sort' of way. By the way I am catholic and do believe in God.

 

Now looking at this as in terms of for the good of 'you' as a person. What good would it do for you if you didn't believe in God? For example, say the time came when you died, and you didn't believe in God, but he did exist. When you got to him, he would be asking 'Why didn't you believe in me? If you did there would be a spot waiting up in the heaven's above for you'. So unfortunetly you goto hell

 

Now, if it was your time to die, and you did believe in God but he didn't exist. What would happen then? Nothing. There is no heaven, no hell, etc.. You are just dead and nothing else exists after that. It didnt harm you in the least bit while you were alive to believe in God. In all actuality you just believing in God made you a better person for society. You were more observant to the feelings of others.

 

So with that said there is only benefit to believe in him. Also there is no true way to prove he exists. You can quote all the bibles you want but there is no physical proof. Now with that said religion relies on the 'faith' you have. When you goto the grocery store & buy a can of soup, you have 'faith' that what is in the can is what it says on the label. You have 'faith' in your friends and family that they love you & won't let you down. This is the kind of 'faith' you need to have in God.

 

I won't say one religion is right over the other, because I don't know that for myself. All I know is that not beliving in him could only mean bad things for you & for the rest of society in general.

[moimeme]

Wandering -

 

Thanks for that; it was really interesting.

[Bronzepen]

I believe that God or the concept of god is something that we as human beings are not ment to understand or will never understand.

 

You can quote scriptures and ask all the questions you want or try to find scientific proof. In the end you will still be left with more questions or just not understand. For some people this is incomprehensible.

 

With God we are trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

 

 

Faith in God is believing in the unbelievable.

[quankanne]

GOOD topic, guys, and y'all give a wonderful array of thoughts to chew on ...

 

first things first: does God exist? my answer is a very, very subjective 'yes, he does.' There have been too many times when I have felt His presence that I cannot deny that he is real to me.

I'll amend bronzepen's statement to "Faith in God is believing in the unseeable" ...

 

Dora has an interesting point in which she notes the differences between being spiritual and being religious. I'll take that one step further by saying that to me, spirituality is that relationship a person has with God (or a Supreme Being or whatever name you give Him), while being religious is claiming a vehicle which you can profess your beliefs (sort of like picking your favorite football team to cheer for -- you like the players, you like how they perform and you really, really just like them). You can be spiritual without necessarily adopting a religion; I believe that someone who is raised without a set or definite religion still hears the same call to goodness and is capable of responding to it. It's that person's free will that gets him sent to Heaven or to the Hot Box.

 

Wandering Jew, you've done a wonderful job enlightening me to a religion that we Catholics see as the basis of our own faith. From the translation of the Adon Olam, the phrase "God is with me and I am not afraid" rings very true with this chick! This I will copy for putting on my bulletin board here at work, it's simply wonderful to contemplate.

[SoleMate]

God exists, but he hasn't posted on Loveshack for a long time.

[Errol]

Great responses and an interesting thread. One of my children has recently begun asking about God and attending various churches. I could only give my own point of view and have enjoyed reading others views -- especially Wandering Jew--that was a great post! I have not found any anwers to some specific questions that I had (or rather my child had) other then from a ministerial perspective. We'll keep looking.

 

I think I will suggest a synagogue for this weekend - it should be interesting and there is one not too far from home.

[quickmorph]

A short addendum to Wandering Jew's thoughtful post. I'm a stone-cold atheist and still consider myself a Jew. In the same the same way that an Apache who doesn't subscribe to the tribe's spiritual beliefs is no less of an Apache. As far as I'm concerned, a Jew who converts to any other religion is still a Jew, just one that doesn't believe in the Jewish religion.

 

Judaism is far more than a religion and has a long history of fervent non-believers. As an example, many of the Jews who fought back against the Nazis in the Warsaw ghetto were dedicated socialists and had no interest in the religious aspects of our tribe. But if these heroic folks weren't Jewish, I don't know who is.

[God]

Of course I exist. What the big deal? I usually don't respond to posts on Internet forums but this one caught my attention. If I became addicted to the Internet, I wouldn't have time to keep the planets aligned, answer prayers and perform all my other Godly duties. It's not easy you know. After busting my butt for millions of years without a break, it's sort of unsettling to see people wondering if I exist. No, I don't take it personally but being God is not an easy job. Wait until I decide to take a vacation. You will all miss me big time.

 

I really don't care what religion you happen to subscribe to. I'm way too busy to care about that. You don't even have to believe in me if you don't want to. That's why I gave you a free will. Just appreciate the things I do. Don't try to understand me, either. I made people in my likeness and how many of them do you understand?

 

Even if you don't believe I exist, pray sometime and see how fast I produce. On a good day, I move instantaneously. On lottery days, I get backed up a little. But everybody gets an answer. I hear a lot of people use my name to swear. I forgive them pretty quickly. I figure I can use all the publicity I can get and, besides, devil damn sounds a little weird and it gives the devil undeserved time.

 

Anyway, this thread is a waste of time. The people who believe in me do so because they see me when they look in the mirror. The people who don't, well, they don't have a clue but I still let them in on the party. It's OK.

 

This Internet thing is something else. I'm sorry I didn't think of it a lot sooner but I had one hell of a time trying to make planes and automobiles and just didn't have the time. Oh, yes, those porn sites. If I'd planned things a little better, I would have created people with clothes on and figure the reproduction thing out a different way. But it's done now and if you want to run up your charge card bill on those sites, that's your business.

 

Next time you wonder if I exist, go to a hospital and look in the maternity ward. Look into the eyes of a newborn. That's as close as you can get to proof. Who else could create on of those nine months after you did you know what? And, by the way, don't you think that was a pretty good trick on my part? It feels pretty good, you know, making those babies. I figured if I was going to get a kick out of it I ought to pass that right along.

 

See you soon, or soon enough. Have fun in the meantime.

[dyermaker]

Great post, God. Comedic, yet impactful. You've done it again--good job refraining from complex metaphors, we've had our share of misinterpretations, yes?

[Wandering Jew]

 

 

What a great on-line community this is! Most on-line communities eventually get ruined. I hope this one never goes away and never gets spoiled. I see there is a request for contributions for a new server for Love Shack. I'm going to give.

 

I come back to visit the thread I posted on two days ago and there is development in the thread, some serious, some comedic. Thank you "God" for your light-hearted comments. What a great way to make a few pithy remarks that actually have a lot of truth in them. In all seriousness, though, you don't sound like God to me. You must be Santa Claus.

 

Errol, if you attend a synagogue this weekend, you will be treated to a minor Jewish holiday, Tu B'Shevat ("The 15th of Shevat"). This holiday, called "The New Year of the Trees," has been adapted in modern times as a Jewish day for commemoration of environmentalism. New rituals and prayers have been created for Tu B'Shevat, such as a seder, that mirror aspects of Succot and Passover. The rabbi will probably comment on passages of the Torah and other Jewish texts that reflect an obligation to protect the Earth and the environment. You might want to call the synagogue in advance to see if there is a communal seder, so that you can reserve a place for yourself and your family.

 

Thanks also to Quickmorph, for his comments. Quickmorph, bei mir bist du Yiddish! ("To me you are a Jew."). What Quickmorph says about Judaism is absolutely correct. A Jew who is an atheist is still a Jew. There is a joke among Reconstructionist Jews (the most liberal of the Jewish movements theologically) that if you are a Reconstructionist Jew, you can believe in at most one god.

 

A Jew who professes to be an atheist does not suffer the kind of opprobrium that an atheist might suffer amongst fundamentalist Christians. I have even read of a discussion among [Conservative] rabbis on this issue. According to one rabbi, an atheist who wishes to convert to Judaism, who in other respects meets the requirements (such as circumcision for men), and most importantly, feels a desire to be connected with and a part of the Jewish people, can be converted to Judaism, and become a member of the Jewish people. Judaism is based upon deed, on performing mitzvot ("commandments"), and not on faith.

 

Quickmorph's analogy that Jews, like the Aztecs, are a tribe and a people with a shared spiritual heritage, is also a good one. In the 1930s, 40s, and 50s, in New York City, both Communism (capital "C") and socialism (small "s") were almost like Jewish movements. Although formally atheistic or secular, Jews who became Communists were clearly the heirs to a Jewish tradition of God as a liberator as well as a creator. Many red diaper and pink diaper babies I have known (the children of former Communists and socialists) have returned to more formal Jewish practices, often with some new twists such as a feminist or socialist haggadah.

 

(The hagaddah is a text that accompanies the Passover meal, which is usually celebrated in the home rather than in the synagogue. Part of the uniqueness of Passover is that it is possible to write your own haggadah, or choose from hundreds that are available. While following a common set of rituals in a standard order, each haggadah can emphasize its own traditions and themes.)

 

I only partially agree with Quickmorph on another point, however. If a Jew converts to Christianity or another religion, he is no longer Jewish. He still has a Jewish heritage, of course. And if he wishes to return to Jewish practices and be a full member of the Jewish community again, any rabbi would welcome him back. In an Orthodox congregation, and probably in a Conservative congregation, he would be welcomed back as an apostate rather than as a convert. There is actually some [private] ritual for returning to Judaism, but I don't know the details. A Reform or Reconstructionist rabbi would probably suggest this ritual too, but they might not require it. Once an apostate returns to Judaism, he is once again a Jew.

 

Quickmorph is right though that many people, both Jewish and non-Jewish, would continue to regard a former Jew as being Jewish. Indeed, a number of famous writers and intellectuals of the 19th century converted from Judaism to Christianity to gain acceptance or entry into the larger world ... Mendelsohn, Mahler, Heine, Disraeli. In some cases (Mendelsohn) they were probably sincere converts, while others (Mahler) were probably opportunists. Most Jews and non-Jews continue to view both Mendelsohn and Mahler as Jews.

 

I'll wander back again.

 

Wandering Jew

[lost_in_chgo]

I DO BELIEVE

WRITTEN BY WAYLON JENNINGS

 

 

Go here for lyrics: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/I-Do-Believe-lyrics-Waylon-Jennings/CE08921C0481C98E48256D9F001611F2

[amorvincintomnia]

The answer is undeniably YES!

Then why do bad things happen to good people? Why do innocent babies die? why Hitler? Why Osama?

Try to think of God this way--all powerful, unlimited, infinite in every way...which means infinite also in love. Now, stay with me on this because it gets complex here, if God is infinite in love that means God even loves the evil one (we call Satan). After all, wasn't Satan part of God's kingdom many mega-eons ago (probably before God lit the fuse that began the Big Bang)? IMHO, God wants Satan back into the heavenly fold, in communion with Him. But, being all-loving, he cannot demand Satan's robotic obedience...just as we cannot demand robotic obedience from those we love (a spouse, for instance, or a rebellious child). They must voluntarily give us love if love is really the definition of love. All of us, I imagine, has suffered the grief of a broken heart (I know I have) over someone we loved that betrayed us. Satan betrayed God; St. Peter denied Jesus; that didn't mean they stopped loving them...God loves us, but he also loves Satan, therefore evil exists.

We are nothing more than pawns in a galactic chessmatch between the good of God and the evil of Satan. God's good will win in the end (chess takes a lot of time of course) but Satan will take a lot of God's chessmen in losing. My belief is when the game is over, Satan will relent and go back to God.