How an Emotionally Neglectful Childhood Can Leave Someone Vulnerable for an Affair

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting theory... I certainly had - and have - a better R with my father, and with his W, than with my mother. But I can't say I ever felt I was competing (with my mother) for my father's attention - OTC, their R was so bad I was begging them to D. (Nor did I ever feel I was competing with my H's xW, during the A...) I wonder how this theory would resonate with other OWs - perhaps, Jen, you could start a thread on it in the OW forum?

 

I hear you, OWoman, I was not competing either. That part I got mixed up. I had my father's undivided attention. My mother was jealous of our relationship.

 

I read something that resonated with me long ago, that my father was "married" to me, in the sense that I was his confidant and the one he trusted. Dysfunctional family pattern, where I had the role my mother should have had, but her mood swings made it impossible for my father to rely on her.

 

I did have to share my father's attention with his work, and what do you know, MM is a workoholic as well.

 

I checked the book where I read about the OW, and it says nothing about competing. This is what it says:

 

"With long term affairs, an inappropriately close attachment to the opposite sex parent is more common, such as when a daughter becomes her father's primary companion and confidante."

(Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment by Emily Brown)

 

Fits me to a T, it does.

 

I will copy this post and start a thread in the OW forum.

[OWoman]

I had typed a long, considered reply, but because of the time it took me to type it, the system logged me out and then wouldn't let me post it until I logged in - at which point it had lost it...

 

So, I hope I can recapture what I'd written. And I hope I don't come across flippant or superficial, given the courageousness of this post.

 

My father and mother married because my mother was pregnant with me at 18. so right off the bat my father entered a relationship with a woman that he did not want to be married to. As I look back now I marvel at the thought that these two were ever married...it makes almost no sense. So, my father is working full time, is a full time student, and the sole bread winner. So, he starts to have affairs.

 

I'm trying to stifle my inner pedant, but I'd like to pick p on this, DI. Did you use "so" as a conjunction, simply to aid the flow ("and soon he starts to have affairs") or to imply causality ("and therefore he started to have affairs")?

 

Why I ask is to gain some sense of your understanding of the reasons behind your father's As - the narrative you constructed about why he did what he did, and how that may or may not have shaped the narrative you've constructed about the reasons for your own A.

 

It's often cited that children of parents who have As are statistically more likely to have As themselves (I don't recall the exact source, but there were studies published in Science in the mid to late 90s, and discussion over whether it was "nature" or "nurture" or both).

 

Growing up before the D I had no real memory of my father. He was always gone "working." My mother, started to become depressed. She has some emotional disorder in her family and I think she suffers from some emotional disorder herself. She is very passive, and I think she knew what was going on. As my father withdrew into affairs she withdrew into a depression.

 

So you have a choice of depression (passive) or As (active) as responses to an unhappy situation. Which - either, or both - would you choose, cognitively, if you found yourself unhappily married?

 

My father was a workaholic and womanizer. He was also extremely intolerant of incompetence and impatient. I tired as hard as I could to win his approval, but always fell short.

 

The "appropriate amount of attention" and the "controlled and sweet" love you get from your W - is that in response to your attempts for approval, or is that given spontaneously and unconnected from any attempts for such from you?

 

So as a result of this a few things happened to me. One, I learned that the best way for me to deal with my emotions and need for intimacy and affection was to bury them. I could not allow myself to be vulnerable to anyone ever. The minute I needed someone was the minute they would screw me over. So even though these feelings and needs were there..they were buried deep, and they were never met because I was not in an environment that could provide them, and in time I wouldn't allow them to even be expressed.

 

You frame this as though structure was everything, agency nothing. That's a common narrative that adults project back on their views on children, rendering them powerless. Children, however, seldom see themselves as powerless (often the opposite - they see themselves naively as omnipotent) - I can clearly recall how I experienced that as a child, and from my experience of counselling adult survivors of child abuse that's a common theme. Children have agency. They are pretty skilled at manipulating their environments to have their needs met.

 

If you chose a strategy of "no expressing of emotional needs" it's usually because (consciously or not) you've decided that alternative strategies (eg, "express emotional needs, gain sympathy") are less likely to deliver desired outcomes, or to deliver them at greater costs.

 

It might, from the vantage point of adulthood, appear to have been a suboptimal strategy - but at the time it was the one that made the most sense.

 

Another thing that happened was that I had a deeply ingrained belief that all people that you count on will eventually let you down and leave you. Yup...good old abandonment issues. So what happens is if anyone gets too close I start to push them away consciously and subconsciously.

 

As an aside - why is this considered so pathological? It happens. Surely it's better to believe that this happens, and not take it personally, than to personalise it as something you've done wrong? People change. They move on. Is it not better to acknowledge that, and not fall apart when it does happens because you've already made peace with that possibility?

 

So I come into life with these deeply rooted and well disguised insecurities and needs. On the surface I appeared to be a person that needed an appropriate amount of affection and expression of love. Not at all clingy or in need of outside validation. I appeared to have healthy self esteem. Nothing could be further from the truth. I married a woman that is healthier than me.

 

Others have commented on this already, so I won't climb on that hobbyhorse, but I do want to pick up on something related.

 

DI, you speak about how you struggled - in vain - for your father's love and affection - yet you do exactly the same to yourself. While you decry your father's inability to give you the love and affection you need - you do exactly the same, putting yourself down and talking everyone else up. It's as if by channeling your father you are hoping to earn his approval.

 

She gives me an appropriate amount of attention and expresses love in a controlled and sweet manner. I tried to convince myself this was enough. However, my soul is a grand canyon. I need so much love, affection, and affirmation that my wife never had a chance. As time went on I felt this chasm grow and grow. I tried to express to her that I needed more, but a part of my dysfunction is that I have trouble asking for what I want, and honestly I do not think there are many women that can actually provide the love I so desperately desire.

 

Once you are able to learn to love yourself, the "chasm" of love you require from someone else will be significantly reduced. And the amount of love you are able to reciprocate will be that much greater.

 

So..enter my xAP. She came in and gave me that which I desired. She showered me with attention, affection, and made me feel desired. The problem was that beyond her ability to do this there was not a lot there. She was also broken, and unlike me, she did not do a good job of covering this. The whole time I was with her I knew she was not the right "one" but she made me feel so good that I could not say goodbye.

 

If you check back on your earliest posts, you will see that this position has not been as constant as you portray here. There has been movement.

 

As I look back I realize how my inability to express what I needed was a set up for me to have an affair. The combination of me needing a very high level of affection and not being able to express it left my wife in a no win situation.

 

OTC - it left YOU in a no-win situation. Your W had options, and she exercised them (having As). Painting her as lacking agency might strip her of any complicity, any guilt, etc, and pile it all onto the evil, needy DI... but it does nobody any favours. Not your W, who's acting in a rational way choosing what's best for herself, and not you, poor broken DI who forces healthy people into situations that not even a saint could cope with... neither narrative is realistic nor helpful, outside of a co-dependent R.

 

 

Truth be told, my W is probably not going to be able to make me happy. It is going to take a very special woman to help me feel whole. It is also going to take me continuing on this path growth and self discovery.

 

You'll find plenty of healthy, normal women from which to choose once you've learned to love yourself appropriately.

[Snowflower]

I have similar feelings. I am just 6mths past d-day, though affairs happened years prior. I struggle daily with my thoughts of I don't care how awful your childhood was, how could you do this to ME........and the compassion and understanding I have for the trauma my H experienced. It's a line that I can't figure out completely which side I am on. I feel like I am betraying myself for understanding on some level what influenced his very poor decisions.

 

I am curious how long it has been for you sunflower? and how do you feel when you express this compassion to your H? I find it is so normal for me to put his emotional needs first that it is just what I do....then I feel angry that I am again putting my needs aside. My worry is that I will 'let him off the hook' too easily. Let his childhood be an 'excuse'. And I have to say that my H takes responsibility for his actions and stresses that he does not blame his childhood, but it obviously plays a role in who is is/was.

 

I'm rambling......

 

Thanks DI for your OP...

Gabriele

 

It has been a little over 14 months for me.

 

Actually, it makes me feel better to be compassionate toward my H. No matter what he did to ME, I can't even imagine how it felt to have been basically abandoned by my mother. I didn't experience anything like that growing up and it had to be difficult. I mean after all, a mother is supposed to represent unconditional love and complete acceptance. I don't think my H has ever had that.

 

So, at least for me, it helped with my own pain to try to empathize with my H's. It's complicated.

 

And actually, my H has never used his childhood as an 'excuse' or a rationalization for his decision to have an affair. He has been slow to realize that there were some issues for him. However, he accepts that his A was bad way of dealing with/avoiding issues within himself and with our marriage.

 

Not sure if any of that helps gabrielle. But I did learn a lot about myself in the process of figuring out my marriage and helping my H with his issues.

[NowhereToHide]

Hmmm... I have mixed feelings reading your posts, DI. You and I go way back, and I understand your story pretty well.

 

To me, however, these posts seem to indicate a continuation of your same patterns all over again.

 

It is great that you are now coming to some acceptance with the fact that your xAP was not who you portrayed her to be. It's a true sign that you are ready to move on from that pain. Seeing her as she truly was rather than what you needed her to be is invaluable. No one can exist that long on a pedestal. And having that perspective can help you come to the understanding of what exactly she was providing you that you needed (but I suspect that it wasn't truly what you needed after all).

 

Yet, now, you are continuing to project the same things onto your wife -- these beliefs that you are at fault for EVERYTHING that has gone wrong and that your W is the innocent victim in all of this. That somehow being who you are is the cause for this mess you now find yourself in. That she is emotionally "healthier" than you, how it was YOU and you alone that was unable to provide what was needed in your marriage, that what YOU are asking for and needing is too much.

 

The fact of the matter is, your xAP didn't leave you. YOU left her. And as for your wife, she holds 50% responsibility in the dissolution of your marriage.

 

Yeah, your wife went to counseling. But coming out of that, she isn't "healthier" than you. She is in denial as to the true state of her marriage. And more importantly, she is in denial as to her role in all of it. She hasn't gleaned some newfound self-acceptance over the course of a couple of therapy sessions.

 

A couple of points:

 

-- She has decided that she can live without having her needs met and she's accepted it. There isn't something wrong with you if you want more than this.

 

-- You may be unable to provide your W with what she wants and/or needs. But guess what? She, too, has decided to not give you what you want/need.

 

-- You know what you want and need. That doesn't make you selfish. It makes you self aware. What you choose to do with that information is up to you.

 

One of the most endearing things about you is your ability to turn the microscope on yourself. The flip side of that, though, is that you often take that introspection too far. Accepting oneself and understand oneself also requires a realistic view of the world around us and our role in it. You, DI, tend to put the fault of so much on your shoulders, when some of it most certainly belongs elsewhere. It puts you squarely in the roles of both the bad guy AND the victim... which is, of course, a safer place for one to exist as it doesn't require changing one's situation... it only requires self-sacrifice (usually motivated by fear).

 

You've come a long way with your perceptions of your xAP. Now it's time to address the cognitive distortion surrounding your views of your wife and your marriage. You haven't ruined your wife's life. There isn't something inherently wrong with you because you aren't happy. You need to spend some time evaluating what it is that you truly want.

 

You can be happy, DI. Once you let go of the fear, you will be.

[Devil Inside]

I think some of the other posters may be right when they say you should think about your W's part in all this. You are such a kind person, and very quick to back down and see yourself in the wrong. I know if my M is to work out, it will be both of us who address all the combined baggage.

 

 

Theme alert..theme alert. Yes, I have a huge tendency to put all the blame on myself. However, it is not out of kindness. It is about control. It is about making it seem as if I face insurmountable odds so I can have an excuse to fail. It's about playing the victim. There have been some outstanding posts...and I am getting some messages loud and clear. I will get back to everyone in time...and as I muster the courage to look this old devil in the mirror.

[hotmarriedchick]

Theme alert..theme alert. Yes, I have a huge tendency to put all the blame on myself. However, it is not out of kindness. It is about control. It is about making it seem as if I face insurmountable odds so I can have an excuse to fail. It's about playing the victim. There have been some outstanding posts...and I am getting some messages loud and clear. I will get back to everyone in time...and as I muster the courage to look this old devil in the mirror.

 

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]Hi Devil Inside,

 

(Before I start, I need to point out that my community/forum savvy husband has already told me that I should change my user name I admit that I registered in response to a troll thread and could now be considered one)

 

That said.

 

I'm a lurker at heart. Reading everyone's journey here has helped me in ways I can't begin to explain. DI, you have been a clear voice and huge support to more people than you probably even know. I just need to chime in now...

 

I can relate to your childhood conditioning. While our circumstances were different in how they played out, I believe our "wiring" was pretty similar. Processor of others' emotions? Yep, that happened a lot. I believe you were (and are) the person to manage other people's disowned psychic property. It takes one to know one That means that the boundaries between what's yours and what's anyone elses' are loosely held. It becomes almost automatic to acquiesce to the "greater good" in an effort to feel comfortable in your own skin. Much more comfortable that way.

 

I met my husband in college--20 years old. I finally had a bit of distance from my family (of origin) and intuitively knew that he would hold the space to help me emerge into a greater sense of myself. But we fell into co-dependency too, even as I was finally starting to individuate and find out who I was. (Yes, marriage and 2 babies in quick succession within 5 yrs of graduation).

 

But there comes a point where the soul need to get your attention and remind you that it's time to up the game. I believe that's when circumstances/people animate the missing elements of ourselves. For me it was my voice. My directness. My needs and my will. Oh--and I didn't live in my body--my sexuality/feminity had been pushed down and even violated as a child and I didn't know how to reclaim it despite my introspection.

 

Enter the affair partner. But honestly, I never had an affair. For me, it was an attraction/animation that was probably mutual--but I never went there. I woke up tho. I examined/introspected what was kicking up in me all this turmoil. Dug into my marriage and turned it upside down. Complete hell for about 3 years (yeah, I'm 38-the text book mid life crisis)

 

DI, I *so* appreciate your self reflective insight--as well as what you generously witness back to so many people here. If it's true that your wife is as emotionally healthy as you reflect her to be, than i believe you have a safe place to fully and authentically reclaim the whole of yourself in a beautiful family dynamic. It's not your job to take on what's not yours, however.

 

Really wish you the best!

 

HMC (soon to be some other clever name)

 

[/sIZE][/FONT]

[Devil Inside]

Yes SN, this stuff stays with you and it's no excuse for cheating. I for one can personally say I struggle often with the void in my life. The problem becomes, did I chose my H when I was out of touch with that part to fill it. If I heal, is my H still appropriate for me? These are really big questions to be answered, through IC and OUTSIDE of an affair (which is just escapism from that reality IMO). A wise person once said to me, you may need that new car, spouse, address after you heal yourself first. So in my opinion those, both WSs and BSs who really have the courage to face themselves, their partners, and their marriages, and not just settle going through the motions for life will have to answer these questions.

 

It does take courage. The more I think about it...the more I realize...I am petrified. I am afraid. I am afraid to really answer the questions. A part of me feels that I know what the answers are, I am just trying to get to the point where I can accept them, and the consequences that will follow.

[Devil Inside]

Another thing I remember is my sister telling me after the fact she was surprised I married my husband because she didn't think I was in love with him. We should have had that talk earlier. Not blaming her, of course.

 

Presently I feel like I love my husband very much as a person. He's a good man. I just don't feel I have an intimate relationship with him nor am I sexually attracted to him.

 

I am in a similar boat. I wonder if her infidelity and my infidelity have lead to a destruction of the trust in our M. Hard to have intimacy without trust.

 

I also wrestle with feeling that I am a shallow person to consider D over not having intimacy or sexual attraction in my M. We get along fine, but I really want to have the whole package. Does this make me selfish and immature?

[Devil Inside]

Love this thread....and if it's ok with DI, throwing out another nugget for thought and comments.

 

The IMAGO therapy originated by Dr. Hendrix claims we fall in love with a more improved version of the parent we had the least successful relationship with in childhood.

 

Why?

 

Because we are trying to heal those old wounds, and if we do not know what we are doing, (who does?!) we bring a level of neediness to the marital or "love" relationship that we bring to no other in our lives.

 

Our expectations of now receiving love and validation from our partner, which we did not receive in our childhood, are HUGE and possibly unfair, and sets the relationship up for a dynamic to.....fail.

 

Thoughts, DI?? Anyone?

 

Let me expand a bit on this. Dr. Hendrix says that we fall in love with someone that has a combination of attributes of both of our parents (our primary caretakers) both good and bad...but for some reason we are especially drawn to the attributes that were most difficult for us to deal with as a child. This is a subconscious process.

 

We do this for a few reasons. For one, it feels natural and comfortable for us to be with someone like this. We meet them and for some reason, we don't exactly know why, we feel like we have known them our whole life. We also want to be with someone that gives us the chance to work through some of our old stuff. We finally have the chance to get love from the person that was like our parents. So for example, maybe you had a father that was very rigid and controlling. Someone that was not very empathic. You may find that you fell in love with someone similar. Your subconscious desire if for them to give you the love you so desperately craved from your father.

 

As you say Spark, it is a lot to put onto our spouses. It is a lot of pressure. The other thing that makes it even crazier is that we are the same thing for them. We are a combination of the attributes of their parents. It sounds like a recipe for disaster no? This is why each individual person in a couple must go through a process of self discovery and growth. It is vital to the relationship. I think the breaking point for many couples is when one person grows much faster then the other...it causes a lot of tension and stress...and often results in the end of the relationship.

[jennie-jennie]

I am in a similar boat. I wonder if her infidelity and my infidelity have lead to a destruction of the trust in our M. Hard to have intimacy without trust.

 

I also wrestle with feeling that I am a shallow person to consider D over not having intimacy or sexual attraction in my M. We get along fine, but I really want to have the whole package. Does this make me selfish and immature?

 

In my opinion it is the other way around, DI. Staying in the marriage when you don't have intimacy and sexual attraction is immature, not taking responsibility for your own happiness and welfare. We only have one life, we deserve to find love and happiness during that life.

 

I always felt that the position my MM is in is one that I left as a teenager when my life was still controlled by my parents. It is time to grow up and take responsibility for your own life and happiness. This in no way conflicts with the happiness of your children, although I have come to understand that many Americans do think so.

Edited February 14, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Devil Inside]

 

I was having an interesting talk with my mom the other day. I was frustrated because H was having an extremely bad weekend. I mean if it could go wrong it went wrong. When he gets so frustrated he vents. His venting is always short term, and he gets over it quickly. But at the same time, it really hurts my feelings. He will say everyone is out to get him and that everything in his life sucks. And on in that vein of it. Just one huge pity party. And this happens every time something goes against him. And has for always. It really bothers me when he does this. It makes me feel like me and the kids are just one more thing he has to deal with and we aren't worth anything but a burdon to him. Now logically I know he doesn't mean us (usually ). But hearing it hurts me. A lot. I have a very difficult time (try impossible) telling him that it hurts. I don't want to bring it up when things are good, and I'm afraid to bring it up when he's in the middle of his pity party.

 

So my mom was saying one day this is going to get to much for you and you are going to leave him. I was like that's not fair to him because I never told him how much it hurts me. She said that doesn't mean I should have to take his **** when he's feeling like that. And we kept going on and on around in circles. So I know I need to sit down with him some time when he's not feeling like this, and let him know really really know how much it hurts my feelings when he does this. And I know that I'm overly sensitive, and that's my from background from feeling not wanting though I always "knew" I was I didn't always "feel" it.

 

CCL

 

I think this happens a lot. His trigger is disappoint or getting discouraged...it's starts a cycle and before you know it the sky is falling. His venting then triggers your insecurities. I think a lot of couples have complimentary triggers.

 

You should talk with him. You should do it when he is in a good mood, and when you are too.

 

Good luck.

[Devil Inside]

I have similar feelings. I am just 6mths past d-day, though affairs happened years prior. I struggle daily with my thoughts of I don't care how awful your childhood was, how could you do this to ME........and the compassion and understanding I have for the trauma my H experienced. It's a line that I can't figure out completely which side I am on. I feel like I am betraying myself for understanding on some level what influenced his very poor decisions.

 

I am curious how long it has been for you sunflower? and how do you feel when you express this compassion to your H? I find it is so normal for me to put his emotional needs first that it is just what I do....then I feel angry that I am again putting my needs aside. My worry is that I will 'let him off the hook' too easily. Let his childhood be an 'excuse'. And I have to say that my H takes responsibility for his actions and stresses that he does not blame his childhood, but it obviously plays a role in who is is/was.

 

I'm rambling......

 

Thanks DI for your OP...

Gabriele

 

Gabriele...for what it's worth...as someone that has cheated and had a childhood deprived of emotionally nurturing...you don't HAVE to forgive him. You don't have to put your emotions second to his. You are giving him a gift...and he is lucky.

[OFGnomore]

It does take courage. The more I think about it...the more I realize...I am petrified. I am afraid. I am afraid to really answer the questions. A part of me feels that I know what the answers are, I am just trying to get to the point where I can accept them, and the consequences that will follow.

 

Scared of divorce? Why don't you just articulate it?

[Spark1111]

Gabriele...for what it's worth...as someone that has cheated and had a childhood deprived of emotionally nurturing...you don't HAVE to forgive him. You don't have to put your emotions second to his. You are giving him a gift...and he is lucky.

 

I second this! My H and I both had emotionally neglectful childhoods, however, I never tried to cure mine by having an affair and hurting the one person who loved me most of all!

 

Maybe I WAS blessed in having psychotherapists in junior high take me under their wing, which made me a life long advocate of fixing myself through introspection and therapy!

 

As the old adage goes: "When you grow sick and tired of being sick and tired, do something about it!"

 

I understand his childhood, I have empathized with it, but AT WHAT POINT DOES IT STOP BEING THE EXCUSE for the unexcusable?????

 

Deal with it, mourn it, learn from it, bury it: Then grow up and be the person you want to be!

 

I did. And I always remind myself that there are those out there with horrific tales of abuse and SOME have grown up to lead honest, authentic and loving lives. If they can do it, anyone who wants to badly enough can also.

[Brokenlady]

I also wrestle with feeling that I am a shallow person to consider D over not having intimacy or sexual attraction in my M. We get along fine, but I really want to have the whole package. Does this make me selfish and immature?

 

If you truly feel like your needs aren't being met, and if those needs are very important to you, the mature thing to do is accept that fact. You are not looking for anything unreasonable, and denying those needs has previously resulted in an affair. I am certain you don't want to repeat that behavior, so something has to give here. Perhaps I read in too much here, but it sounds as if you are fairly cetain that you are not going to be able to get your needs met within your current M. So, contemplating D seems pretty logical to me.

 

When my M was ending I came to realize a lot of things that were not so important to me at the beginning were of great importance later. We grew in different directions, and to be fair, we weren't super-compatible to begin with. Once I realized that I would never be able to get my needs met within the M, I really felt like I had no choice but to end the M. It was making me very unhappy, and making me vulnerable.

 

How do you view people who D? Do you think of others close to you who have divorced as selfish or immature? Is it possible you are holding yourself to a impossibly high standard that you don't hold anyone else to?

[foreal]

As I look back I realize how my inability to express what I needed was a set up for me to have an affair.

 

You were set up for an affair...many (if not most) people are.

 

The question is, why did you choose to spike the ball?

[foreal]

DI

 

I have read your posts from the time you started here on LS.

 

You are very introspective..but I cannot understand why you have not started divorce or at least separation? (maybe you have..I have been away for awhile)

 

I mean, you sound miserable, not in love. and to say you are looking for the whole package?? Aren't you a shrink? Surely you know there is no such thing....the only whole package you will ever find is the one inside of YOU..and until that time, why are you suffering and dragging your W and kids along for the ride? (the kids know- they always do)

 

Are you going to make your W do it?

 

I remember looking at my H and thinking, shyt, I'm gonna have to pull this trigger- he'll never do it himself! And so I did. But doing that made me lose even more respect for him than I already had lost...Dunno, just sayin'

 

I mean this with all sincerity- it just seems you are struggling with pulling the trigger...like your M is like that movie "Weekend with Bernie"..draggin a corpse along day by day...it is exhausting.

[Brokenlady]

Are you going to make your W do it?

 

I remember looking at my H and thinking, shyt, I'm gonna have to pull this trigger- he'll never do it himself! And so I did. But doing that made me lose even more respect for him than I already had lost...Dunno, just sayin'

 

 

I read somewhere that women file something like 3/4 of all the divorces. Men seem to have real difficulty with doing it in general, even when they're the ones that want out.

 

xDM for instance, found it easier to sleep at night knowing xW divorced him despite the fact that he moved out and basically pushed her to it. I always thought it it was funny he tried to tell me that he was "different" because he got divorced - but he didn't drive the process at all. I really wanted to feel like he was invested in the process of moving on to a new life (with me), and it just never happened. For whatever reason, he needed his xW to drive the process. And then, he'd end up flailing around, miserable beause he felt she was still controlling every aspect of his life. (And she was, because he was basically begging her to!).

 

I guess at a basic level, it's a way to avoid making a definitive choice at all, and to avoid having responsibility for the consequences. I can understand that, but I would think that eventually this could lead someone to feel very disenfranchised, like they have no control in their own lives, even if it is by choice. But, as we've all seen, there's always consequences for doing nothing too.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Brokenlady

[OWoman]

I also wrestle with feeling that I am a shallow person to consider D over not having intimacy or sexual attraction in my M. We get along fine, but I really want to have the whole package. Does this make me selfish and immature?

 

DI - are you prepared to lead a stunted life of quiet desperation? Given your profession, and given what you say every day to your clients, are you prepared to live a life you KNOW is inauthentic, out of kilter with what you urge them every day to strive for? Are you prepared to dress yourself each morning in your plastic smile as you don your hairshirt, taking one for the team - and NOT feel the slightest regret, resentment or longing? because if you're going to feel any yearning for what might else have been, then forget it! Resentment will eat away at your being one fibre at a time until all that is left is your plastic smile.

 

"selfish"? "immature"? Is that what you call your clients who are striving to be in touch with their fullest, most self-actualised versions? Or is that what your father called you if you ever mentioned having a desire or a preference that wasn't in line with what he - the superego - the societal norm - God - the Pentagon - <insert authority figure of your choice here> decreed you should want, and have?

 

I think it's pretty selfish and immature to want something strongly enough to know and recognise that, and then to stand around doing nothing about it and whining that you don't have it... as if it's somebody else's job to find and deliver it to you. If it really is what you want, or need, then NOT doing something about that in full knowledge that you want / need it is immature. My mother played the martyr game for years, and none of us thanked her for her "sacrifices". Rather, we resented her weakness and her manipulation, seeking to control through stealth what she lacked the courage to stand up and claim openly and honestly.

[Brokenlady]

I think it's pretty selfish and immature to want something strongly enough to know and recognise that, and then to stand around doing nothing about it and whining that you don't have it... as if it's somebody else's job to find and deliver it to you. If it really is what you want, or need, then NOT doing something about that in full knowledge that you want / need it is immature. My mother played the martyr game for years, and none of us thanked her for her "sacrifices". Rather, we resented her weakness and her manipulation, seeking to control through stealth what she lacked the courage to stand up and claim openly and honestly.

 

Another excellent post OWoman!

[Spark1111]

I read somewhere that women file something like 3/4 of all the divorces. Men seem to have real difficulty with doing it in general, even when they're the ones that want out.

 

xDM for instance, found it easier to sleep at night knowing xW divorced him despite the fact that he moved out and basically pushed her to it. I always thought it it was funny he tried to tell me that he was "different" because he got divorced - but he didn't drive the process at all. I really wanted to feel like he was invested in the process of moving on to a new life (with me), and it just never happened. For whatever reason, he needed his xW to drive the process. And then, he'd end up flailing around, miserable beause he felt she was still controlling every aspect of his life. (And she was, because he was basically begging her to!).

 

I guess at a basic level, it's a way to avoid making a definitive choice at all, and to avoid having responsibility for the consequences. I can understand that, but I would think that eventually this could lead someone to feel very disenfranchised, like they have no control in their own lives, even if it is by choice. But, as we've all seen, there's always consequences for doing nothing too.

 

So true....and it IS called conflict avoidance and it is learned very early in childhood, especially a disfunctional one: Mom and Dad are often volatile or not in tune with MY feelings, so I better not rock the boat.

 

It is also/can be a common trait among WS's, which is how I guess this whole thread started, right DI?

 

Yes, I agree BL, not making a choice, whether it be to spare your own feelings or the feelings of others, even if you know it to be NOT in your best interests, is ultimately having a choice made for you by what ever external pressures exist.

[Samantha0905]

It does take courage. The more I think about it...the more I realize...I am petrified. I am afraid. I am afraid to really answer the questions. A part of me feels that I know what the answers are, I am just trying to get to the point where I can accept them, and the consequences that will follow.

 

I think our feelings are a lot alike. However, you grew up with a troubled childhood and I grew up feeling very happy. I was very close to my parents. I find this interesting.

 

I am in a similar boat. I wonder if her infidelity and my infidelity have lead to a destruction of the trust in our M. Hard to have intimacy without trust.

 

I also wrestle with feeling that I am a shallow person to consider D over not having intimacy or sexual attraction in my M. We get along fine, but I really want to have the whole package. Does this make me selfish and immature?

 

I know this sounds awful and forgive me if it does, but sometimes I wish my husband had an infidelity. That's crappy of me I know. I just want to have a reason to not feel shallow that it bothers me there is no intimacy or sexual attraction. Why isn't he just as unhappy about the situation as me? I guess that's what I'm wondering. We get along fine also. I also feel extremely selfish and immature. So what if I'm not sexually satisfied or totally comfortable being held by him? Isn't this just little stuff compared to the fact he's a great father, and a very nice and honorable, hard working man? I'm not asking you. These are just thoughts that run through my head a lot.

 

Let me expand a bit on this. Dr. Hendrix says that we fall in love with someone that has a combination of attributes of both of our parents (our primary caretakers) both good and bad...but for some reason we are especially drawn to the attributes that were most difficult for us to deal with as a child. This is a subconscious process.

 

I've not read Dr. Hendrix. So, I'm not sure I fell in love -- but I was very attracted to traits in my husband that were very opposite of my father. My father was a responsible person, but an artist and more free spirited. He often asked me how I thought and encouraged communication. My husband was a hard working, "do what you're supposed to do" type person. He's very regimented. My father was respectful of others, but all others -- he didn't discriminate towards those who didn't think like him -- if that makes sense. They're very different -- my husband and my father -- he has trouble with people he thinks are different from him. He's not mean to them, but he really struggles with it. I've never thought of how my husband compares to my mother. She was very responsible (raising 14 children), but also more fun-loving and free spirited. She loved my husband. I think she thought he represented stability for me - which he certainly did.

 

I was very close to both my mother and my father. I find it interesting I picked someone a lot different from them to marry as far as communication and intimacy are concerned. Admittedly, they were (my parents) and are (my husband) very reliable in the love department. I mean, I knew they would be there for me and I've always known my husband would be.

 

We do this for a few reasons. For one, it feels natural and comfortable for us to be with someone like this. We meet them and for some reason, we don't exactly know why, we feel like we have known them our whole life. We also want to be with someone that gives us the chance to work through some of our old stuff. We finally have the chance to get love from the person that was like our parents. So for example, maybe you had a father that was very rigid and controlling. Someone that was not very empathic. You may find that you fell in love with someone similar. Your subconscious desire if for them to give you the love you so desperately craved from your father.

Gosh, I must be like the toys on the island of misfit toys. ha,ha I certainly did not choose a mate in this pattern.

 

As you say Spark, it is a lot to put onto our spouses. It is a lot of pressure. The other thing that makes it even crazier is that we are the same thing for them. We are a combination of the attributes of their parents. It sounds like a recipe for disaster no? This is why each individual person in a couple must go through a process of self discovery and growth. It is vital to the relationship. I think the breaking point for many couples is when one person grows much faster then the other...it causes a lot of tension and stress...and often results in the end of the relationship.

I am nothing like my husband's parents. They are very rigid.

 

Maybe we chose opposites -- my husband and I?

 

Anyway, I'm rambling about me in your thread. I love this thread. It's helping me a lot.

 

I do think a lot of stress occurs when one person grows in a different direction from another. I don't know if I want to call it faster growth. We're just all different, you know? Either way, it certainly causes confusion.

[jennie-jennie]

I also feel extremely selfish and immature. So what if I'm not sexually satisfied or totally comfortable being held by him? Isn't this just little stuff compared to the fact he's a great father, and a very nice and honorable, hard working man? I'm not asking you. These are just thoughts that run through my head a lot.

 

Samantha, we can look at our neighbor's husband and be content that he is a great father and an honorable, hard working man, but when we look at our own partner we need to see a man we are comfortable being held by and whom we desire sexually.

[Samantha0905]

Samantha, we can look at our neighbor's husband and be content that he is a great father and an honorable, hard working man, but when we look at our own partner we need to see a man we are comfortable being held by and whom we desire sexually.

 

True Jennie. I do wonder if strong sexual desire (or desire period) stays for the length of a long term marriage? It seems eventually the mundane feeling of being together every day throughout life would sneak up on a couple. I'm pretty sure long term marriage is supposed to be about a lot of other things. I wonder, just like DI, if it's selfish to expect more when already marriage to a nice and responsible person.

[Spark1111]

Yes, it is possible to sustain passion in a long term marraige if both partners put the marriage first! before job, kids, chores, extended family.

 

The secret is to not grow complacent about the marital relationship and to treat each other as when you were first dating; bring your BEST self to the relationship, have fun, and really listen to each other.

 

However, DI, I believe first you must work on you and your own issues. Then you can work on the marriage and see if it will meet your needs.

 

I think you can also undertake MC too soon, as you are as of yet unwilling to make necessary changes because you are still in the process of individual change.

 

The rule of thumb? One year after you have decided to life-altering decision, re-visit and see if you still feel the same way; after intensive therapy.

 

I personally, could not stay in a loveless marriage with a nice person for any reason.

 

If you are incapapble of restoring passion after 1 year (and only you can decide when that year begins and ends) than you can leave with your integrity and self-respect knowing you exhausted all attempts to make it whole.

 

That's worth a lot of peace of mind, IMHO.