mem11363 Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 This is where I part ways with some of the other male posters. Within the confines of our marriage my wife and I are OBLIGATED to have sex with each other to honor our marriage vow to love each other. Should she choose to stop loving me physically - then I will take a lover. No sneaking, hiding or lying about it. I am not designed to be celibate. I am also pretty confident she would not choose that path. Of course I make accomodations for medical issues just like she doesn't use medical issues as an excuse to avoid sex. I freely admit I don't understand why men or women accept celibacy when their partners unilaterally try to force a sexless marriage on them. Avoiding conflict to get laid, is an almost certain path to celibacy. No, she likes the comfort and security of her life, and I guess she loves you, but unfortunately, she doesn't want to have sex with you. This seems to be the new thing in the modern day world. It's the woman's version of the "madonna-whore complex". She loves you for the emotional support, being a good father, and to go to dinner with, but her sexual interests, if any, lie elsewhere? If you really want to see her uber happy, follow the new modern day craze for modern women of swinging. She can get a "hot young stud" and watch her pop the cork on the champagne..and maybe you can have a little fun too. SAd and pathetic, but all too true, I'm beginning to think
mem11363 Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Those wives could CHOOSE to get jobs, they just don't want the stress. Instead they choose to slowly suck the life out of their spouse - taking the money and the love and giving neither back.... Because they are more afraid of the alternative; many, MANY wives are *comfortable* with the security of their home or their family to want to be on their own. Many don't have the ability to be on their own and rely on their husbands as their caretakers.
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I'm back... Lizzie - you are a very honest and self aware person. Here is my question for you. When you are in a LTR, have you generally wanted the guy to love you more than you love him? Or do you prefer for him to love you less than you love him? I'm not sure I understand that question but from what I understood...here it is... I've always been the 'giver' in most relationships... I love to please my partner.. of course I want him to reciprocate... I don't think anyone can say 'I prefer him to love me less"... 'I want to love him more'... It's not quite the way it works.. IMO... I think, although I am a giver (sexually), always been... I want my partner to love me as much as I love him... The only thing.. if I 'sense' that the guy would do 'anything' for me.. that could be a turn-off.. All my partners were not the 'good guys' (doormats) type of guy.. so I'm not sure if I answer your question...
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 PKB, I could have written your post, almost exactly, except for some unimportant differences in the ages and years of marriage. You were wondering about w/holding sex to see if that changes anything? I have tried not initiating several times, just as an experiment to see what happens. I have learned three things from my experiments: One, we would never have sex again if I didnt start it, as she simply has no desire to do it. Two, I am a wreck after 3-4 weeks without it. So, it never ends with her initiating, but with me breaking down and ending the experiment. Three, she is a little less likely (but only a little) to say "no, I'm too tired" if its been 3-4 weeks than if its been 1 week. Maybe that means there is some slight desire there, albeit clearly not much. I really get depressed when I think that this is not an experience we share any more, and that its only something she does to keep peace in the house. As Lizzie points out, sex is something she may find as disgusting as cleaning the bathroom, but she'll never tell me directly that is what she is thinking. I guess the only thing more depressing would be if she announced we weren't doing again, ever. Even more depressing are Lizzie's observations that all women married 20+ years feel this way. If that's true, why aren't they all dumping their husbands at the 20 year mark? Does this mean my wife is going to come home one day soon and tell me we are history? Why would they? They don,t have any reason to leave.. they have a good H.. a comfortable life.. kids, security... etc... and the sexless life they want... they 'love' their H.. it's just that they do not 'desire' them anymore... It's like a partner who cheat... and doesn't leave home.. why would they.. they get the sex outside.. they have their comfortable life.. etc.. you get the point..
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Those wives could CHOOSE to get jobs, they just don't want the stress. Instead they choose to slowly suck the life out of their spouse - taking the money and the love and giving neither back.... Not necessarily.. some women choose, along with their H's appprobation, to be a SAHM... most men love that their wife stay at home to take care of their kids. the house, them.. etc..
BB07 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I'm a late drop in on this thread and it's interesting to say the least. I won't say that I've read every post but I didn't see this mentioned and I thought I'd throw this out there as it was my personal experience. I've been divorced from my ex now for almost 15 years and yes that is plenty of time to reflect on things. My ex hubby wasn't happy with the amount of sex we were having and it was a big issue. Many times since that time I've thought about it and wondered why, I've concluded that resentment was the killer of my sexual desire. Over the years I've talked to a few other women about it and most of them have agreed that if they had problems in that regard that resentment was a big factor.
mem11363 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 You just described us for the first 19 years. But I think it is even MORE abusive when the wife is a SAHM and is sexless in a 20 year marriage because: - The guy works full time / often more than full time - He is is at the peak of his career often high stress job etc - The kids are now much older, much easier - There is a growing discrepancy in workload hers is steadily getting easier his is not AND she can't be bothered (lazy) to have sex or has a sexual aversion and lies about it My take is either step up and love your spouse or step up and tell them you can't stand it. If that means you end up parting and having to get a job that is just life. People come on the board every day and bittch endlessly about how they were cheated on/deceived. I think it is just as bad to deceive lie / conceal a sexual aversion and manipulate your partner into staying with you for your own selfish reasons. Not necessarily.. some women choose, along with their H's appprobation, to be a SAHM... most men love that their wife stay at home to take care of their kids. the house, them.. etc..
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 You just described us for the first 19 years. But I think it is even MORE abusive when the wife is a SAHM and is sexless in a 20 year marriage because: - The guy works full time / often more than full time - He is is at the peak of his career often high stress job etc - The kids are now much older, much easier - There is a growing discrepancy in workload hers is steadily getting easier his is not AND she can't be bothered (lazy) to have sex or has a sexual aversion and lies about it My take is either step up and love your spouse or step up and tell them you can't stand it. If that means you end up parting and having to get a job that is just life. People come on the board every day and bittch endlessly about how they were cheated on/deceived. I think it is just as bad to deceive lie / conceal a sexual aversion and manipulate your partner into staying with you for your own selfish reasons. I guess that would be the ideal world.. but it's not.. it's not that easy... Most women in sexless marriages... are not the ones suffering.. in fact.. they're not suffering at all.. they're happy... (except for the arguments about sex )... that's exactly what they want, no sex, good comfortable life, nice home, kids..etc.. The miserable partner is the husband who constantly has to beg, nag, gets frustrated... etc.. I guess there is no miracle 'cure' for that.. it's life.. women and men are wired differently.. could be physical.. emotional... psychological.. or a combination of everything..
mem11363 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie, They are happy - until the day the guy walks out the door and it is a hostile parting because he has finally figured out she has been lying to him for a long long time. I understand your point - the women ARE happy - they ARE wired different - just saying that if the man still has his balls he doesn't tolerate a situation where his wife is happy and she doesn't even care that he isn't. I guess that would be the ideal world.. but it's not.. it's not that easy... Most women in sexless marriages... are not the ones suffering.. in fact.. they're not suffering at all.. they're happy... (except for the arguments about sex )... that's exactly what they want, no sex, good comfortable life, nice home, kids..etc.. The miserable partner is the husband who constantly has to beg, nag, gets frustrated... etc.. I guess there is no miracle 'cure' for that.. it's life.. women and men are wired differently.. could be physical.. emotional... psychological.. or a combination of everything..
SarahRose Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Not necessarily.. some women choose, along with their H's appprobation, to be a SAHM... most men love that their wife stay at home to take care of their kids. the house, them.. etc.. True, a lot of men seem to love the dependent female. It makes them feel powerful and in charge.
SarahRose Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie, They are happy - until the day the guy walks out the door and it is a hostile parting because he has finally figured out she has been lying to him for a long long time. I understand your point - the women ARE happy - they ARE wired different - just saying that if the man still has his balls he doesn't tolerate a situation where his wife is happy and she doesn't even care that he isn't. I think the one who doesn't want the sex is happy. I suspect it is a bit one-sided in that person usually gets their needs met while the other usually doesn't probably in several areas. I do feel lied to and deceived in my situation.
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie, They are happy - until the day the guy walks out the door and it is a hostile parting because he has finally figured out she has been lying to him for a long long time. I understand your point - the women ARE happy - they ARE wired different - just saying that if the man still has his balls he doesn't tolerate a situation where his wife is happy and she doesn't even care that he isn't. Oh OK.. I totally agree ... it's not fair for the guy.. plus it's true.. those women are devastated when their H either walk out or cheat... go figure.. :rolleyes:
mem11363 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 There are also many guys who truly really do not listen to their wives and are completely NOT receptive to feedback/suggestions to change until their wife walks out the door at which point the guy is like "wait, please come back I LOVE YOU, I will do anything to make you happy" Go figure. People often just do what they think they can get away with. Thats why I say a "healthy fear" of your partner is a beautiful thing.... Oh OK.. I totally agree ... it's not fair for the guy.. plus it's true.. those women are devastated when their H either walk out or cheat... go figure.. :rolleyes:
WalkInThePark Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Because they are more afraid of the alternative; many, MANY wives are *comfortable* with the security of their home or their family to want to be on their own. Many don't have the ability to be on their own and rely on their husbands as their caretakers. EXACTLY! They know their H is a catch because he really wants to be a good H and a good familyman. So he won't just cheat if his needs are not met, no, he tries to find a solution (and comes to LS to ask for our opinion). They know that if they would leave they have little chance of finding a guy who is as good as their H. Plus if they would meet another man, he will want sex (and they don't want to reopen that book). I think Lizzie is an exception because she really sounds like a vibrant, dynamic lady who can perfectly survive on her own. I also think they still love their H, they just don't desire him. My xMM's W told him "Hey, you need too much attention because you did not get enough from your mother." and "Hey, we are not 20 anymore." so this shows she sees sex simply as something you do when you are young and you want to have kids. A very sad attitude in my opinion and unloving as well...
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Don't you know mem11363 it is like a lottery.... I could just as easily have met a Lizzie60 or your wife..... You don't seem to understand that you simply are LUCKY.... Did you create that luck??? Yes you have. But at the end of the day there are so many variables, which you do not seem to realize as you repeat your mantra over and over..... Do I want males happy.... More then anything. Do I rejoice in their unhappiness and "sexless" marriage.... Of course not. Lizzie is the one on this site, neither in a marriage or a relationship who seems to take great joy in explaining why the marriages are "sexless" and what wives think about their husbands, faking orgasms and not enjoying sex (orgasm or not). Really to Lizzie, women are lying to themselves if they actually do love their spouses and enjoy sex with them after 5/10/20+ years..... And you mem attack me!!!! My wife has plenty of interests as do I. We spend much time together and apart. My job does not require travel, so yes we are often in close proximity, but that means absolutely nothing when it comes to sex. When I talked about friends and their sex lives, it was obviously a comment as to "new" relationships, discovering one another, not living together, exciting settings/dinners/travel not the day to day tedium of bills, family, mortgage, outings..... and frankly these were younger women (i.e. 10-15 years). I forgot to comment on the bold part.... I never said that all women fake.. some don't and they just withhold sex.. period with no explanations (or weak ones .. like 'I'm too tired, etc.')... But when a H who is complaining about sex with his W tells us that his wife, although she doesn't like sex.. will reach orgasm in less than 5 minutes... come on... give me a break.. Let's say I was the wife who doesn't want sex... and would really reach orgasm in 3-5 minutes, which, btw.. is the most incredible sensation in the world (nothing feels better)... I would have sex EVERY single night.. That just doesn't make sense to me.. Plus.. let's say that my H has doubts that I'm faking it... H: I think, since we rarely have sex .. that you are not really having an orgasm... Me: WTF are you talking about? (angry tone).. you're being totally ridiculous.. why would I fake.. gosh I can't believe you sometimes... how dare you say I'm lying... who do you think you are? God... really... gosh you make me angry sometimes.. anyway... if you can't feel it when I get it... you're the one having the problem.. not me... End of discussion.. (Get my point?)
Toodamnpragmatic Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I don't understand women whatsoever..... What I do know is my spouse would not bother faking an orgasm with me to assuage my male ego.... She just doesn't think that way. As much as you enjoy orgasms, and I think my wife does too, it just is not all consuming to her. Just the way she is wired. All the conversations where I ask if she enjoys it, then why is it not a priority falls on deaf ears.... LS has confirmed that I am not alone feeling this way and my spouse is not an anomaly. You Lizzie60 on the otherhand, are one of a kind, and the biggest troublemaker on this website.....
Whateverelse Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Why would they? They don,t have any reason to leave.. they have a good H.. a comfortable life.. kids, security... etc... and the sexless life they want... they 'love' their H.. it's just that they do not 'desire' them anymore... It's like a partner who cheat... and doesn't leave home.. why would they.. they get the sex outside.. they have their comfortable life.. etc.. you get the point.. Lizzie, this is right on. My wife is not one who does not leave b/c she would have difficulty supporting herself, as she works and could easily make it alone financially. She doesn't leave b/c we are GREAT friends and roommates, who get along great, have common interests and do fun things on weekend together, and she seems totally comfortable with that. Why does a woman who thoroughly enjoyed sex in her 20's become repulsed by it in her 40's?
WalkInThePark Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie, this is right on. My wife is not one who does not leave b/c she would have difficulty supporting herself, as she works and could easily make it alone financially. She doesn't leave b/c we are GREAT friends and roommates, who get along great, have common interests and do fun things on weekend together, and she seems totally comfortable with that. Why does a woman who thoroughly enjoyed sex in her 20's become repulsed by it in her 40's? The question is if she really enjoyed it in her twenties. My take is that a lot of women have sex in order to land a husband. To have the nice house, the kids, other couples in the same situation to be friends with. It's about the life they want, not about the man they want. And often in such a circle of friends, when one couple divorces, the others divorce too... Because the structure is no longer in place to keep up the appearance. I think that the only couples who will remain happy and passionate after 20 years, are those where the love and desire becomes more and more profound with time. In order to achieve that, you need to have an authentic interaction and communication and I think that rarely happens. Many people marry just to get married, with somebody they like but who is quite interchangeable. I've always wanted more and I think it is one of the reasons I am not married (yet). I need more than some practical arrangement, I want a soulmate.
mem11363 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 OK - and this is where we part. If wife said "I really like sex with you/and KNOW you are seriously upset because we aren't having enough and simply can't explain why I don't bother" Then I would relentlessly stay on that subject until I got an answer that made sense. ALL other conversation and joint activity would end until this question was answered. I would not raise my voice, or use mean words, I would just be firm. LOL - As for Lizzies tactic of reversal - and attacking the guy asking the questions - it is beautiful and I admit it would make me uncomfortable if wife did that - but I would stay on point and stick with "until this conversation proceeds in a logical way - and your words and actions align - rest of our life is on hold" And IMO that is simply being assertive. I don't understand women whatsoever..... What I do know is my spouse would not bother faking an orgasm with me to assuage my male ego.... She just doesn't think that way. As much as you enjoy orgasms, and I think my wife does too, it just is not all consuming to her. Just the way she is wired. All the conversations where I ask if she enjoys it, then why is it not a priority falls on deaf ears.... LS has confirmed that I am not alone feeling this way and my spouse is not an anomaly. You Lizzie60 on the otherhand, are one of a kind, and the biggest troublemaker on this website.....
CarrieT Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie is a decade or so older than I am but she and I are VERY similar in our histories so I feel confident in responding to a few points... I was involved in a 12-year relationship and often faked orgasms to "keep the peace." I also got to a point where having sex was annoying and repulsive, but I was comfortable in the relationship in every other way. Ironically though, *I* was the breadwinner so I was not staying in the relationship because he was the caretaker. But it was the discovery in my 40s that I desired more and actually wanted sex but at that point, there was no interest in having it with the guy "who was my best friend." The spark had died and I was not interested in figuring out how to rekindle it; I just wanted out. It is not rational. Why did it change from my 20s to my 40s? Age, experience, growth, etc. But because my partner and I did not keep open lines of discussion from my late 20s until my 40s, there was no way to backtrack and explain HOW I changed. It just happened and because he was not aware or involved in that change, there was no way to include him at that point in my life. It might be why many men are "suddenly" dealing with their wives' diminished desire. It has happened over time and is now more catastrophic and anguishing because of the time lapse when, in fact, it is a situation that has had time fester and develop and is now harder to deal with. Ironically for me, now in my mid-40s, I am having even more difficulty finding someone with whom I can share my life and desires. The men my age are coming out of these sexless marriages and want to catch up to years of celibacy and abstinence without full disclosure and communication. Very frustrating, let me tell you...
crazycatlady Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I know several women who do get off sexually, but still don't want it more then 4 to 10 times a year. Its just all they need even when they have really good orgasms. I don't get it because I love sex, I love getting off. I need it at least 3 times a week to feel emotionally optimul or I start getting bitchy. I've talked to them about it and for some they just arent into it the same way I am. Sure they get off, but its not a drive. And then I know some where there is some resentment for the spouse for whatever reason, and some who do use sex as a means of control -I think its a low thing to do and once you start using sex as a weapon it ceases to be fun ever to do again. And I think those women tend to come to view sex as a chore maybe. I also think women who fake, and fake on a fairly regular basis, are also setting themselves up for the same problem. Faking is lying, it also lets both partners to be come lazy in love making. I don't fake with H, if that means I have to finish myself by hand afterwards I do. H always helps. And next time maybe he will do things a little differently to make sure I get there first, though mornings are almost always done this way because I have a harder time getting into mornings, but he loves it and I love the closeness and getting him off. Its not a duty, its something I could avoid by getting up earlier when I wake up instead of laying there dozing off and on waiting for him to wake up so we can do it. Its one of the ways I can show him how much I love him. But its very different from the duty that Lizzie felt with her ex. So the more I read the more I think frequent faking orgasms is a horrible idea, a dangerous practice for a healthy sexual relationship. WalkInthePark - I think you are on a good track about what keeps it real over the years. But nothing is great all the time, it has ups and downs, but both partners have to be willing to work on it and honesty in a HUGE must. No faking orgasms. Just don't be upset and offended when they don't get there. Which is why I hear most women say they do it. If I'm not going to make it, I let him know that its not working that way, and he can finish and then help me. Sometimes I just ask for holding afterwards. He understands that. He also understands when before hand I tell him I want several that night because I was feeling realllllly orgasmic and does his best to get me there. Honesty honesty honesty. Cant fake it. CCL
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie, this is right on. My wife is not one who does not leave b/c she would have difficulty supporting herself, as she works and could easily make it alone financially. She doesn't leave b/c we are GREAT friends and roommates, who get along great, have common interests and do fun things on weekend together, and she seems totally comfortable with that. Why does a woman who thoroughly enjoyed sex in her 20's become repulsed by it in her 40's? The doctor/psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist/Lizzieist who will find the answer to that mystery.. will become millionnaire..
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I don't understand women whatsoever..... What I do know is my spouse would not bother faking an orgasm with me to assuage my male ego.... She just doesn't think that way. As much as you enjoy orgasms, and I think my wife does too, it just is not all consuming to her. Just the way she is wired. All the conversations where I ask if she enjoys it, then why is it not a priority falls on deaf ears.... LS has confirmed that I am not alone feeling this way and my spouse is not an anomaly. You Lizzie60 on the otherhand, are one of a kind, and the biggest troublemaker on this website..... Yes I am one of a kind.. that's why men love me so much.. biggest troublemaker.. I don't think so... I'm trying to help you guys.. I'm simply honest.. that's the difference.. you just don't like to hear the truth..
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Lizzie, this is right on. My wife is not one who does not leave b/c she would have difficulty supporting herself, as she works and could easily make it alone financially. She doesn't leave b/c we are GREAT friends and roommates, who get along great, have common interests and do fun things on weekend together, and she seems totally comfortable with that. Why does a woman who thoroughly enjoyed sex in her 20's become repulsed by it in her 40's?[/QUOTE] On the other hand.. a woman in her 20's hasn't spent 20+ years with the same partner.. so it's not the same as a woman in her 40s or 50s who HAS spent most of her life with the same man... I think .. so far it's the only answer I can come up with ... it's the length of time.. the passionless... the everyday life.. the monotony that kills passion..
Lizzie60 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I know several women who do get off sexually, but still don't want it more then 4 to 10 times a year. Its just all they need even when they have really good orgasms. I don't get it because I love sex, I love getting off. I need it at least 3 times a week to feel emotionally optimul or I start getting bitchy. I've talked to them about it and for some they just arent into it the same way I am. Sure they get off, but its not a drive. And then I know some where there is some resentment for the spouse for whatever reason, and some who do use sex as a means of control -I think its a low thing to do and once you start using sex as a weapon it ceases to be fun ever to do again. And I think those women tend to come to view sex as a chore maybe. I also think women who fake, and fake on a fairly regular basis, are also setting themselves up for the same problem. Faking is lying, it also lets both partners to be come lazy in love making. I don't fake with H, if that means I have to finish myself by hand afterwards I do. H always helps. And next time maybe he will do things a little differently to make sure I get there first, though mornings are almost always done this way because I have a harder time getting into mornings, but he loves it and I love the closeness and getting him off. Its not a duty, its something I could avoid by getting up earlier when I wake up instead of laying there dozing off and on waiting for him to wake up so we can do it. Its one of the ways I can show him how much I love him. But its very different from the duty that Lizzie felt with her ex. So the more I read the more I think frequent faking orgasms is a horrible idea, a dangerous practice for a healthy sexual relationship. WalkInthePark - I think you are on a good track about what keeps it real over the years. But nothing is great all the time, it has ups and downs, but both partners have to be willing to work on it and honesty in a HUGE must. No faking orgasms. Just don't be upset and offended when they don't get there. Which is why I hear most women say they do it. If I'm not going to make it, I let him know that its not working that way, and he can finish and then help me. Sometimes I just ask for holding afterwards. He understands that. He also understands when before hand I tell him I want several that night because I was feeling realllllly orgasmic and does his best to get me there. Honesty honesty honesty. Cant fake it. CCL May I ask you how old you are Crazycatlady.. how long have you been with your H? I agree that a woman who fake it ALL the time is denying herself great pleasure.. but on the other hand.. a woman who just CAN'T come (a big percentage of women cannot reach orgasm through penetration) will fake it at one point.. cause she knows her husband gets very frustrated that she is un-orgasmic (by penetration).. and to prevent arguments.. she will fake it.. For some reason.. some men think it's THEIR fault if the woman cannot cum.. and it's totally false...
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