"Karma" and Choice

[greengoddess]

I’ve been the WP and the OW. I don’t think one had any influence in the type of Rs I chose to have. Whatever position I was in, cheater or OP/OW, was by choice. I believe the vast majority of what people (adults) experience (good and bad) is through choice. IMO, there’s no such thing as karma, and “chance” only makes things happen in a particular way without any apparent cause. It doesn’t carry over to a person’s use of that chance to make certain choices. I think my experience of being the OW currently will only impact not wanting to be the OW in the future.

 

The karma since you were both the wanderer and the ow will be when you finally fall totally in love, marry, start a family and then you find out he, the love of your life, is cheating on you.

[herenow]

I think "Karma" can mean different things to different people at different times.

 

For example, as I get older, I never wish bad on others. As a kid, it seemed like every time I would send negative energy out there, bad things would happen to me. Was it "karma" or did my negative thinking bring me down with it? Possibly a bit of both.

 

Then there is the do unto others... If we (the general we) treat others poorly, are we just getting the same treatment back because of our own actions? Or, is it "karma" at work. Again, maybe both are in play.

 

Are we creating our own negative energy because of our personal choices? If we thought more about the big picture and looked beyond what makes us feel good maybe "karma" would shine upon us with good.

 

I personally believe that each of us creates our own "karma". It's not up to the universe to make my life good. It's up to me. "Karma" doesn't make choices for me, I make them for myself. And when I make bad choices, there are consequences to pay. I own the consequences because I made the choice. IMO, we are our own "Karma". Call it whatever you want, but when you (the general you) make choices that cause preventable harm to you or others, be prepared to pay the consequences.

[White Flower]

 

I personally believe that each of us creates our own "karma". It's not up to the universe to make my life good. It's up to me. "Karma" doesn't make choices for me, I make them for myself. And when I make bad choices, there are consequences to pay. I own the consequences because I made the choice. IMO, we are our own "Karma". Call it whatever you want, but when you (the general you) make choices that cause preventable harm to you or others, be prepared to pay the consequences.

IMO Karma is predestiny. The Golden Rule is choice. If we get hit by a car and become paralyzed, we had no choice in the matter. Than can be considered Karma or fate. It is what we do about it after that gives us freedom from the fate (whether good or bad fate). So yes, I agree one should be prepared to face the consequences based on the way we choose to treat people because those are immediate reactions to our actions but predestination is a whole other thing.

[Fallen Angel]

The karma since you were both the wanderer and the ow will be when you finally fall totally in love, marry, start a family and then you find out he, the love of your life, is cheating on you.

 

Okay, so then by your own "Karmac theory" (karmac?? where in the h3ll did I pull that word from?) , since I spent 15 years as a BW, karma owes me 15 guilt free years as the OW.. afterall, karma owes me!

[ladydesigner]

Okay, so then by your own "Karmac theory" (karmac?? where in the h3ll did I pull that word from?) , since I spent 15 years as a BW, karma owes me 15 guilt free years as the OW.. afterall, karma owes me!

 

That is a good one FA and I do hope you have many great years after all the crap you went through in your past relationship.

[Fallen Angel]

That is a good one FA and I do hope you have many great years after all the crap you went through in your past relationship.

 

Thanks Lady D.. we have started this year off well. And I look forward to the rest of it being every bit as good as it has been so far.

[herenow]

Okay, so then by your own "Karmac theory" (karmac?? where in the h3ll did I pull that word from?) , since I spent 15 years as a BW, karma owes me 15 guilt free years as the OW.. afterall, karma owes me!

 

Yes, enjoy those 15 years, because based on your theory the tides will turn again.

 

Ever see the movie "The Box", based on a Twilight Zone called "Button, Button"? A person pushes a button, gets a crap load of money and someone they don't know dies. When the next person (who the first person doesn't know) gets the box and pushes the button, guess who is next to die?

 

Play that game and it's bound to come back to you. Wow, I guess that is what Karma is all about after all.

 

If you were a BW for 15 years and you feel it's OK for you to now be the OW, so be it. It's your life and I wish you happiness.

[Fallen Angel]

Yes, enjoy those 15 years, because based on your theory the tides will turn again.

 

Ever see the movie "The Box", based on a Twilight Zone called "Button, Button"? A person pushes a button, gets a crap load of money and someone they don't know dies. When the next person (who the first person doesn't know) gets the box and pushes the button, guess who is next to die?

 

Play that game and it's bound to come back to you. Wow, I guess that is what Karma is all about after all.

 

If you were a BW for 15 years and you feel it's OK for you to now be the OW, so be it. It's your life and I wish you happiness.

 

I don't believe in "karma"... so I am not worried.

 

My husband (now ex) cheated on me because he wanted to, because our marriage was broken, because he was broken, because I was broken, because I was willing to put up with it, because I was abused and ashamed and afraid to do anything about it. Nothing I have done before or since caused the Universe (Karma) to "pay me back, what i had coming to me".

 

And for GG to tell someone that she hopes that "karma" will repay her later for what GG percieves as her "wrong-doing" now, well.. all I can say to that is that I wish Karma was real.. cause then I would walk around smiling knowing people really do get just exactly what they deserve..

[herenow]

I don't believe in "karma"... so I am not worried.

 

My husband (now ex) cheated on me because he wanted to, because our marriage was broken, because he was broken, because I was broken, because I was willing to put up with it, because I was abused and ashamed and afraid to do anything about it. Nothing I have done before or since caused the Universe (Karma) to "pay me back, what i had coming to me".

 

And for GG to tell someone that she hopes that "karma" will repay her later for what GG percieves as her "wrong-doing" now, well.. all I can say to that is that I wish Karma was real.. cause then I would walk around smiling knowing people really do get just exactly what they deserve..

 

Some Karma can be self inflicted. For example: There are some OW on this board who feel being an OW was a mistake and they take responsibility for their actions. The guilt that can come with knowing that your (the general your) actions have hurt another person can be a form of self-inflicted karma.

 

Then there are those who feel that they are "karmically safe" because they didn't break the vows and take no responsibility for the fact that a third person may get hurt. Maybe there is future karma, maybe not. IMO, it really doesn't matter. As far as I am concerned, all I need to do is live my life proud. If I am happy with my choices, then I feel fine. If I make a choice that hurts someone or is a bad choice for me, it makes me feel bad. That is my own personal karma.

 

FA, if you are happy being the OW, then I guess it's all good.

[skylarblue]

Originally Posted by greengoddess

The karma since you were both the wanderer and the ow will be when you finally fall totally in love, marry, start a family and then you find out he, the love of your life, is cheating on you.

 

Originally Posted by White Flower

…If we get hit by a car and become paralyzed, we had no choice in the matter. Than can be considered Karma or fate…

 

No, that’ll just be the decision of a man to cheat on his W. Or the result of one or two parties not paying attention to their surroundings while driving and/or walking. If karma existed then good things wouldn’t happen to bad people, and bad things wouldn’t happen to good people. To me, so-called karma is just the cause and effect of a person’s (not necessarily the person receiving the results) actions.

[OWoman]

Just noticed this...

 

And, why was the box so eye-opening Owoman?

 

It was very interesting in a number of ways. Partly to have a window on what kind of a person he was back then (young, naive, emotionally gauche) and what kind of a person she was back then (confused, manipulative, egocentric, disturbed) and how much - in his case - and how little (in hers) has changed.

 

But mostly... because of the insight it gave me into their R. How she was guilty of far worse (in the way she treated her H, and the way she treated him) than he ever was - and how that experience didn't temper in any way how she acted when confronted with his subsequent A. How she was perfectly capable of holding two entirely different standards and moral universes in her head, simultaneously - one which applied to her, and one which applied to everyone else. How completely unable she was to imagine, understand or empathise with, anyone else's perspective but her own. And how her narcissism caught others in her web.

 

Reading the letters from her 1st H, I got a vivid insight into just what a BS goes through after discovering the extent of what the person you loved - and he really did claim to love her very much - has done to you, how they've twisted your reality and your mind to cause you to doubt your senses and your thoughts and how they've taken the love you gave them and perverted it into something ugly and used that as a weapon to beat you with. It was really shocking!

 

It made me think - could a R that started out like this - based on so little honesty, so little self-awareness and so much manipulation - really end up any other way than to come full-circle? Did she ever have the self-awareness to be honest with him? Did he ever have the voice to be honest with her? Could he - my H - having seen how her modus was deception and manipulation - ever have succeeded had he tried to run things in an honest, open way with her? Was its dooming not obvious from the outset?

 

And for her - was how badly she treated everybody (and continued to treat them... though it does raise questions about my H's claims that she "wasn't always as bad" as she is now) really sustainable, in a way that wouldn't ultimately bite her on the bum? Did she really think it was OK to treat everyone else that way, without someone somewhere along the line learning from her and doing a little of the same back?

 

And... for my H... How little agency he seemed to have, back then. How open he was to her manipulation and manoeuvering. How guileless and naive, how he had no clue how he was being used.... Did I perhaps take advantage of him in the same way when I pounced on him, back at the start of our A? (Admittedly, he was several decades older and wiser then - and certainly no longer a minor!) And, did he somehow remember the love in those almost illegible letters from her H, where he ceded her to my H and said he wouldn't stand in her way, that he understood why and how someone else could love her, because he loved her too... did he somehow hope for something similar when his own A played out? That his BW might reconnect with the "love" she must once have felt for him (though, beyond the teenage discourse, there's no evidence of actual love in her letters) once she realised the M was genuinely under threat? That she might back off and cede him to someone who's love claims were as legitimate and as easy to understand? That she might realise that his future, his growth and his self-actualisation lay beyond her, and wish the best for him? Was he really still that naive boy he'd been when she pounced on him?

 

I've no idea how long they've been up in the dust - I'm sure that, had he had access to them years ago, they'd have made his IC a lot easier, his separation less clouded, his struggle a lot lighter... if he were able to read them with today's eyes, and really see what they said.

[White Flower]

I've no idea how long they've been up in the dust - I'm sure that, had he had access to them years ago, they'd have made his IC a lot easier, his separation less clouded, his struggle a lot lighter... if he were able to read them with today's eyes, and really see what they said.

Wow, OWoman, so many answers hidden in the dust. What an interesting story.

[Fallen Angel]

But mostly... because of the insight it gave me into their R. How she was guilty of far worse (in the way she treated her H, and the way she treated him) than he ever was - and how that experience didn't temper in any way how she acted when confronted with his subsequent A. How she was perfectly capable of holding two entirely different standards and moral universes in her head, simultaneously - one which applied to her, and one which applied to everyone else. How completely unable she was to imagine, understand or empathise with, anyone else's perspective but her own. And how her narcissism caught others in her web.

 

This is something that should not shock you. You see it everyday.

 

Just take the OW/OM board as an example. You have former OW/OM/MM/MW/MOW/MOM who come here and are down-right abusive to current OW/OM/MM/MW/MOW/MOM. They can effectively keep the two different standards going by saying "But I learned my lesson and don't do it anymore." Thing is, if they were still in the affair, they would still most likely look down upon others in thier same situation and find another reason why it is okay for them and not for someone else.

 

As another example, just look at grandmothers... when they were our mothers, they would spank us without hesitation, yell at us, embarrass us in public. But watch how that same insane mother you had reacts to you raising your voice to her grandchild, or threatening to swat their behind. You will be lucky if she doesn't compare you to Hitler!! Two completely different sets of standards.

[OWoman]

This is something that should not shock you. You see it everyday.

 

True - I guess, but I also tend to credit people with the ability to learn from their experience, so I am often disappointed when that doesn't happen.