MM flip-floppers

[Brokenlady]

As many of you know, I've been reading a lot to try to figure out wtf happened in the affair, the post-A relationship, and in my life since then. Recently I saw something that may be of interest to folks here, so I thought i'd get another discussion going.

 

Interestingly, it's well documented n social psychology that people have a tendency to "upgrade the chosen option and downgrade the unchosen option" after a decision has been made. Here on LS there's evidence for this - there are plenty of fWS who talk about how they now see the AP in "reality" and how much better their spouse is than the AP. There's also W's to fMM whose H's are apparently happy with their action to the leave the 1st M and downgrade the xW.

 

Because of this tendency to downgrade the unchosen option, people who are told after the decision that they can choose again usually opt for a third choice, not to the originally rejected choice. So, why doesn't this work for MM who leave a M? If it did, we'd expect them to go to a new girlfriend rather than back to the W when things got unpleasant, but yet it appears they more often return to the W (or never really cut ties).

 

So I wondered about the flip-floppers - the ones who made a decision to leave the M and then after some interval return to the W (or fail to cut ties with the W). Finally it hit me (duh!)- they never really made a definitive decision to begin with, they just gave the appearance of such.

 

I don't think "trial togetherness" with an OW works any better than "trial seperation" in a marriage, they both seem to cause the relationships to invariably fail, which I suspect is the point. Trial anything is bascially a lack of full investment one way or the other. The trouble is that OW's often aren't given the heads up that it's just a trial, let alone a trial-togetherness that's concurrent with a trial seperation from the marriage.

 

So basically what I take from all of this is that all xDM's talk about how he "sacrificed" so much for me, that he left "for" me, that he "chose" me, is bull. The proof is in the pudding that he never really chose at all. In a way, that makes me feel more worthless than ever because at least I could hold onto the idea that he chose to be with me. Ugh. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Mino]

Hi broken lady, Just want to give you my expirence with the flip flopper. My mm had moved out 3 times. I do believe he had made up his mind before moving, no he didnt do much planning the first two times. But I know he thought in his heart that he had the strength. Problem was he didnt think it through. Guilt took him home again. Each time inbetween, he did put in the work, meaning therapy, reading self help book, had even taken medication for his issues. The third time, he planned more, MC before the move, and getting his own place verses living with me. I watched him go into deep depression... to were I finally walked out, 6 weeks later he ran home again.. He didnt have the strength, and he ran what he called his "safe Place" Running home, stilled his guilty towards his child. So I do disagree with you, to make the choice to leave and actually do it does not come easy, but the outcome depends much on their inner strength. Many of these MM are, lets face it weak and cowardly people. They wouldnt be in a affair in the first people if they were strong. Its sad for them... But I do know my xmm gave it his all, it just wasnt enough.

[White Flower]

Anyone else have any thoughts?

That is why I strongly encourage the MP to seek counseling before leaving. They need to work out the issues that made then wander in the first place. They need to be strong in order to build a strong foundation with the person they are leaving for.

 

Further, they shoud be leaving a marriage that is not working for them, not leaving 'for' somebody else. The person waiting in the wings needs to accept whatever is revealed in counseling. He/she may not leave the M. If he/she does leave, he/she is a better person for himself and for his future R and hopefully honest with the person in the last R.

[White Flower]

Hi broken lady, Just want to give you my expirence with the flip flopper. My mm had moved out 3 times. I do believe he had made up his mind before moving, no he didnt do much planning the first two times. But I know he thought in his heart that he had the strength. Problem was he didnt think it through. Guilt took him home again. Each time inbetween, he did put in the work, meaning therapy, reading self help book, had even taken medication for his issues. The third time, he planned more, MC before the move, and getting his own place verses living with me. I watched him go into deep depression... to were I finally walked out, 6 weeks later he ran home again.. He didnt have the strength, and he ran what he called his "safe Place" Running home, stilled his guilty towards his child. So I do disagree with you, to make the choice to leave and actually do it does not come easy, but the outcome depends much on their inner strength. Many of these MM are, lets face it weak and cowardly people. They wouldnt be in a affair in the first people if they were strong. Its sad for them... But I do know my xmm gave it his all, it just wasnt enough.

We posted at the same time! Your exMM, it seemed, did not complete work in IC IMO. If he needed to run home to a 'safe place' then he did not complete IC in order to find that HE was his safest place. In the long run, you won because he wasn't even strong enough for himself let alone you!

[Spark1111]

Hi BL, a BS here.....

 

I think the flip-flopping is a MM's sign of inner confusion, and probably has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

 

I believe that his xW meets some needs of his, and you meet the others.

 

I think that until he identifies those needs within himself and figures out why one woman provides a, and the other b, he will continue to flip-flop.

 

Is he in IC?

 

Interesting comments about if it isn't woman a, or b, it is then woman c.

 

Wonder why that is?

 

As for the concept of affairing-down or up, I think it is in direct relationship as to the WHY of the affair.

 

If the marital relationship is over, I would assume a MM affairs up in the sense that he chooses a kinder, better, (fill-in-the-blank) woman who treats him better.

 

If the reason for the affair is for self-validation or ego-boosting, than he might choose a partner he feels superior to, hence, affairing down.

[Spark1111]

And that is why NC is such a great concept in that both women or one woman severing ties to the MM forces him to choose, or at least identify the needs that woman met within him.

 

And IMHO, the flip flopping at that point, MUST come to an end, for better or for worse.

[Brokenlady]

Hi broken lady, Just want to give you my expirence with the flip flopper. My mm had moved out 3 times. I do believe he had made up his mind before moving, no he didnt do much planning the first two times. But I know he thought in his heart that he had the strength. Problem was he didnt think it through. Guilt took him home again. Each time inbetween, he did put in the work, meaning therapy, reading self help book, had even taken medication for his issues. The third time, he planned more, MC before the move, and getting his own place verses living with me. I watched him go into deep depression... to were I finally walked out, 6 weeks later he ran home again.. He didnt have the strength, and he ran what he called his "safe Place" Running home, stilled his guilty towards his child. So I do disagree with you, to make the choice to leave and actually do it does not come easy, but the outcome depends much on their inner strength. Many of these MM are, lets face it weak and cowardly people. They wouldnt be in a affair in the first people if they were strong. Its sad for them... But I do know my xmm gave it his all, it just wasnt enough.

 

Mino,

I remember you writing that your xMM mowed his W's lawn when he was seperated and that he moved back in with his W right before the D would have been final. I guess I look at that as failure to cut ties and avoidance of the final decision of divorce - much like it was with my xDM. I'm not saying the choice is ever easy, I think that's why so many resist making a definitive choice at all.

 

For my xDM, I don't think of it as a question of strength to handle the situation created by the decision, rather it was an inability to handle the decision-making. I know he did the best he could. The problem is that his best wasn't going to meet my emotional needs and was only going to keep hurting me because it was indecisive (in his failure to cut ties with his xW).

[Brokenlady]

Hi BL, a BS here.....

 

I think the flip-flopping is a MM's sign of inner confusion, and probably has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

 

He kept saying that, but it's hard not to internalize it when he kept talking about how unhappy his xW made him and how badly she treated him and then to watch him stab me in the back just to please her.

 

I believe that his xW meets some needs of his, and you meet the others.

 

I think that until he identifies those needs within himself and figures out why one woman provides a, and the other b, he will continue to flip-flop.

 

Sadly, I think he already knows what they are. His xW met his need to be a knight-in-shining aromor (savior), and has an inextricable place in his unshakable picture of what a family should look like. I am more independent, but that's scary for him because I don't "need" him. I supply "apssion and love" that he said he never got from xW. There's other things, but you get the gist. The problem is that I couldn't magically become the mother of his kids, nor be with him without him first breaking his marriage up. He never managed to find a way to see how things could look in his mind because he was so set on ideas that couldn't mesh with me in his life.

 

Is he in IC?

 

He was. He went for almost 2 years and then dropped out with a convienient excuse. I expected it because I felt him pulling away from it and looking for excuses for quite some time. He said he figured he'd do ok with just the couple's therapy we were doing, but he knew that he had much left to deal with. He just didn't want to pursue it further. Guess it was getting hard to look inside himself.

 

Interesting comments about if it isn't woman a, or b, it is then woman c.

 

Wonder why that is?

 

I think it makes sense - if you've sufficiently downgraded woman a to be with woman b, and it doesn't work out with woman b, woman a still doesn't look good. It works this way with other choices in people's lives, but not so much for MM in choosing women. I chalk it up to no choice being made in the 1st place - woman a isn't downgraded as much (if at all), so when it doesn't work out with woman b, woman a still looks good.

[NoIDidn't]

The thought that therapy "fails" is interesting.

 

I think in both the cases mentioned here, it "failed" because the people in it weren't planning to be totally honest with themselves. And if they were doing it while in affairs, and at the behest of their OP, I think I can see why they were doing it and it wasn't to work on themselves but to make it look that way to the OP.

 

BL, I think your MM kept stabbing you in the back because of the affair dynamic, even after he divorced, and the fact that you stayed in spite of it. It seems that he went to therapy to be a better partner for you without thought of what would be best for him. He was stuck playing perfect for two women and it just got to be too much. He seems to have picked the one that would put up with the most.

 

In Mino's case, his mental issues got the best of him. His finishing therapy had nothing to do with failure. Mino shared a lot of his mental history here and the nature of one of his illnesses makes it very hard to them to find a "new" place as safe as the "old" one. Especially when children are involved. I'm not saying it isn't possible, its just that the situation would have ended up just like it did until he found the strength to fight himself - not his marriage.

 

All MM that flip-flop aren't doing so solely because of anything the BW says, or the OW says, or does. Its because they are so internally conflicted. Sometimes one of the women sticks around and sees him through his confusion. Sometimes one of the women gets fed up with his coping mechanisms (lying, obfuscation, playing both women off the other to get a feel for which one may be the better choice) and cuts out one of his choices. But believe them when they say "it has nothing to do with you", because it doesn't. They have to do it for themselves and within themselves, or whatever R they stick to just won't work.

 

(All of this is MO, not at all meant to come off as statements of fact. )

[Brokenlady]

The thought that therapy "fails" is interesting.

 

I wasn't implying that the therapy itself failed. Therapy is like school, you get out of it what you put ito it. One could argue that insufficient effort was put into it to get the desired results. I used the word "failure" in terms of boundary setting, not therapy results.

 

I think in both the cases mentioned here, it "failed" because the people in it weren't planning to be totally honest with themselves. And if they were doing it while in affairs, and at the behest of their OP, I think I can see why they were doing it and it wasn't to work on themselves but to make it look that way to the OP.

 

Quite possibly. Although, I had tried to get him into therapy long before he went - he didn't do it until he was good and ready. But there was certainly an element of lying involved at the outset. The initial purpose of therapy was to help him make a decision (despite the fact that at the time he told me it was to help him figure out "how" as he already had promised to leave the M). xDM was astonished when his IC told him that he would be happier with me (he had met both the xW and me in seperate sessions). In some ways, I think xDM was hoping the IC would encourage him to stay in the M because that would prevent any guilt he'd had about leaving. That guilt became overwhelming, and I think he knew that would happen.

 

The couples counseling was absolutely just to pacify me. As far as he was concerned, he was doing all he could and I just needed to shut up, chill out and wait for him to be fully available to meet my needs.

 

BL, I think your MM kept stabbing you in the back because of the affair dynamic, even after he divorced, and the fact that you stayed in spite of it. It seems that he went to therapy to be a better partner for you without thought of what would be best for him. He was stuck playing perfect for two women and it just got to be too much. He seems to have picked the one that would put up with the most.

 

Definitely the A dynamic lingered, and that always bothered me. In many ways, things got worse when he left and divorced because I thought it meant he was "free" to be with me. I could no longer blame the "situation"/marriage for his casting me aside, it was a simple inability on his part to be available to me, whether in or out of the M. You may be right that he was more concerned about how to be a good partner to me, but I do believe he was plenty concerned about what was best for him. He just had a tendency to act against what even he knew was his own best interests to preserve the idea that he was a good person.

 

I disagree that he chose her...yet. I don't think he chose anything. He's still biding his time to see if I come back (yet again). To my knowledge, he's still alone. I'm fairly certain he will eventually try to go back to her, and if that's what they both decide, God help them both because they are terrible together.

 

In Mino's case, his mental issues got the best of him. His finishing therapy had nothing to do with failure. Mino shared a lot of his mental history here and the nature of one of his illnesses makes it very hard to them to find a "new" place as safe as the "old" one. Especially when children are involved. I'm not saying it isn't possible, its just that the situation would have ended up just like it did until he found the strength to fight himself - not his marriage.

 

True, and that's also quite possible to be the case with xDM as well.

 

All MM that flip-flop aren't doing so solely because of anything the BW says, or the OW says, or does. Its because they are so internally conflicted. Sometimes one of the women sticks around and sees him through his confusion. Sometimes one of the women gets fed up with his coping mechanisms (lying, obfuscation, playing both women off the other to get a feel for which one may be the better choice) and cuts out one of his choices. But believe them when they say "it has nothing to do with you", because it doesn't. They have to do it for themselves and within themselves, or whatever R they stick to just won't work.

 

Agreed.

[ladydesigner]

If the reason for the affair is for self-validation or ego-boosting, than he might choose a partner he feels superior to, hence, affairing down.

 

Wow Spark111 this hit a spot for myself (sorry if this is TJ) I was definitely in the position of "affairing down". What doesn't make sense to me is if I wanted an ego-boost wouldn't it be better to affair up? But you hit the nail on the head in my situation. I was seeking self-validation and probably ego-boosting and the affair partner I chose was someone who I normally would never have been interested in or even looked twice at...WOW

 

Sorry again for the TJ. It was an enlightening moment for me.

[Fallen Angel]

As many of you know, I've been reading a lot to try to figure out wtf happened in the affair, the post-A relationship, and in my life since then. Recently I saw something that may be of interest to folks here, so I thought i'd get another discussion going.

 

Interestingly, it's well documented n social psychology that people have a tendency to "upgrade the chosen option and downgrade the unchosen option" after a decision has been made. Here on LS there's evidence for this - there are plenty of fWS who talk about how they now see the AP in "reality" and how much better their spouse is than the AP. There's also W's to fMM whose H's are apparently happy with their action to the leave the 1st M and downgrade the xW.

 

Because of this tendency to downgrade the unchosen option, people who are told after the decision that they can choose again usually opt for a third choice, not to the originally rejected choice. So, why doesn't this work for MM who leave a M? If it did, we'd expect them to go to a new girlfriend rather than back to the W when things got unpleasant, but yet it appears they more often return to the W (or never really cut ties).

 

So I wondered about the flip-floppers - the ones who made a decision to leave the M and then after some interval return to the W (or fail to cut ties with the W). Finally it hit me (duh!)- they never really made a definitive decision to begin with, they just gave the appearance of such.

 

I don't think "trial togetherness" with an OW works any better than "trial seperation" in a marriage, they both seem to cause the relationships to invariably fail, which I suspect is the point. Trial anything is bascially a lack of full investment one way or the other. The trouble is that OW's often aren't given the heads up that it's just a trial, let alone a trial-togetherness that's concurrent with a trial seperation from the marriage.

 

So basically what I take from all of this is that all xDM's talk about how he "sacrificed" so much for me, that he left "for" me, that he "chose" me, is bull. The proof is in the pudding that he never really chose at all. In a way, that makes me feel more worthless than ever because at least I could hold onto the idea that he chose to be with me. Ugh. Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

I think you are being much too hard on yourself for HIS actions... oh wait, you had nothing to do with HIS actions, so you have NO part in taking the beating (even the self inflicted one) for HIS actions.

 

Now, I really do not know your whole story, i have come and gone from the board, and sometimes find it hard to keep track of everyone's story.. but perhaps he is struggling with the "split-self", from what i have read, they often will "flip-flop" several times before making a clean break from either woman... but it has nothing to do with him not loving you, or him wanting her more etc etc... it is an internal war for him, that really is about doing what he thinks is "right" and what his emotional self tells him will make him "happy".

 

I am sure jennie can direct you to some good reading on this topic. ((hugs to you))

[Spark1111]

Wow Spark111 this hit a spot for myself (sorry if this is TJ) I was definitely in the position of "affairing down". What doesn't make sense to me is if I wanted an ego-boost wouldn't it be better to affair up? But you hit the nail on the head in my situation. I was seeking self-validation and probably ego-boosting and the affair partner I chose was someone who I normally would never have been interested in or even looked twice at...WOW

 

Sorry again for the TJ. It was an enlightening moment for me.

 

Then according to what I have read, affairing down puts you instantly at eas with the person, validates your ego and allows you to feel somewhat superior, which are all good feelings.

 

Affairing up can be nerve-wracking, in that you have an attraction to someone sort of "out of your league," and consequently always feel a little lacking in their presence.

Sorry for the TJ.

[pureinheart]

Hi broken lady, Just want to give you my expirence with the flip flopper. My mm had moved out 3 times. I do believe he had made up his mind before moving, no he didnt do much planning the first two times. But I know he thought in his heart that he had the strength. Problem was he didnt think it through. Guilt took him home again. Each time inbetween, he did put in the work, meaning therapy, reading self help book, had even taken medication for his issues. The third time, he planned more, MC before the move, and getting his own place verses living with me. I watched him go into deep depression... to were I finally walked out, 6 weeks later he ran home again.. He didnt have the strength, and he ran what he called his "safe Place" Running home, stilled his guilty towards his child. So I do disagree with you, to make the choice to leave and actually do it does not come easy, but the outcome depends much on their inner strength. Many of these MM are, lets face it weak and cowardly people. They wouldnt be in a affair in the first people if they were strong. Its sad for them... But I do know my xmm gave it his all, it just wasnt enough.

 

Hi Mino/BL,

 

My exDM flip flopped in his mind and behavior rather than location. It seems my story is the closest to Minos as he always referred to his home as being his "safe place"....he in fact got her to leave, which I don't believe she cared for their location anyway...he moved them out to BFE about 15yrs prior. He wanted me to go out there...nope.

 

He is in IC only (at first) to play the game with SDI, now with the co. that he went out on medical from because they give him money also...he got a really good deal financially out of this...also I might add he did this so that during the D his W wouldn't get any of his retirement because he was out on Disability. He followed suit right after me (mine was real) after hearing what I did...funny then his sister and her daughter did the same thing....I'm like WTF.

 

It's sad, but this guy has a string of A's and who knows, he doesn't know. He's lived his life in a state of seeming confusion, his W told him all the time (and did leave a couple of times) that she was done, only to have him beg her back, threaten to commit suicide and so on. He did the same thing with me after they separated.

 

Did he make the entire family crazy? Were they both crazy? Did he make her crazy? I realalise we make our own bed per say, although can someone drive you to these legnths? WOW!

 

I understand what "safe place" means to me, as I am messed up now. What does safe place mean to them? Is it different?

 

I am not trying to threadjack, these are questions I am asking myself, so that I can see the typewritten words.

 

Excellent post BL....

[White Flower]

And that is why NC is such a great concept in that both women or one woman severing ties to the MM forces him to choose, or at least identify the needs that woman met within him.

 

And IMHO, the flip flopping at that point, MUST come to an end, for better or for worse.

Even better if he moves out on his own while in IC. That way, he is not persuaded by one or the other and he can truly focus on himself.

[NoIDidn't]

Even better if he moves out on his own while in IC. That way, he is not persuaded by one or the other and he can truly focus on himself.

 

I think this is something that mainly the OP would suggest. To get him away from the influence of the marriage and W (family, kids, etc.), to see that he really could survive without those things.

 

But I don't think that's fair to him because he entered the AR as MM, not as a single guy, so why should he have to give up everything to make the OP think he was really free to make up his mind. I think the OPs actually feel this helps them, but it seems to really only cause more problems in the highly conflicted about leaving.

 

I could be wrong in this opinion, but I really see this hurting the OP more than helping them. It just seems to me that the thing that benefits the OP the most is really a counterintuitive action, not something you'd do in a *normal* R.

 

I read this, and other, forums and seen this enough to think that telling the MM to split from his W, just to placate the OW and make her think he was actually able to focus on the merits of the AR vs. the M, really only seems to blow up in their faces more than anything else. Plus, both women tend to cheat and sneak try to influence him with visits and meals, and etc, etc, until they are still just as in his face when we was at home with the W and still in the A. And help the OW who suggests this knowing that there are minor children involved.

 

This really only starts the real flip flopping in my mind, even though OPs seem to always think it will work out in their favor. It rarely ever does.

[pureinheart]

Wow Spark111 this hit a spot for myself (sorry if this is TJ) I was definitely in the position of "affairing down". What doesn't make sense to me is if I wanted an ego-boost wouldn't it be better to affair up? But you hit the nail on the head in my situation. I was seeking self-validation and probably ego-boosting and the affair partner I chose was someone who I normally would never have been interested in or even looked twice at...WOW

 

Sorry again for the TJ. It was an enlightening moment for me.

 

Were you affairing down or were you vulnerable....two different things/issues.

 

I affaired down in a sense, although I was vulnerable too....soooo

[wheelwright]

As many of you know, I've been reading a lot to try to figure out wtf happened in the affair, the post-A relationship, and in my life since then. Recently I saw something that may be of interest to folks here, so I thought i'd get another discussion going.

 

Interestingly, it's well documented n social psychology that people have a tendency to "upgrade the chosen option and downgrade the unchosen option" after a decision has been made. Here on LS there's evidence for this - there are plenty of fWS who talk about how they now see the AP in "reality" and how much better their spouse is than the AP. There's also W's to fMM whose H's are apparently happy with their action to the leave the 1st M and downgrade the xW.

 

Because of this tendency to downgrade the unchosen option, people who are told after the decision that they can choose again usually opt for a third choice, not to the originally rejected choice. So, why doesn't this work for MM who leave a M? If it did, we'd expect them to go to a new girlfriend rather than back to the W when things got unpleasant, but yet it appears they more often return to the W (or never really cut ties).

 

So I wondered about the flip-floppers - the ones who made a decision to leave the M and then after some interval return to the W (or fail to cut ties with the W). Finally it hit me (duh!)- they never really made a definitive decision to begin with, they just gave the appearance of such.

 

I don't think "trial togetherness" with an OW works any better than "trial seperation" in a marriage, they both seem to cause the relationships to invariably fail, which I suspect is the point. Trial anything is bascially a lack of full investment one way or the other. The trouble is that OW's often aren't given the heads up that it's just a trial, let alone a trial-togetherness that's concurrent with a trial seperation from the marriage.

 

So basically what I take from all of this is that all xDM's talk about how he "sacrificed" so much for me, that he left "for" me, that he "chose" me, is bull. The proof is in the pudding that he never really chose at all. In a way, that makes me feel more worthless than ever because at least I could hold onto the idea that he chose to be with me. Ugh. Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

 

This pulls at the heart strings I have tried to ignore.

 

But I would stand against some of it. Sometimes we feel love and it goes the whole way. We would move mountains. In this case there is no real sacrifice.

 

Where the trials fail, it is because the infidelity crisis was based on a personal crisis, rather than love.

 

I guess in my case, I fell in love. My AP just fell in crisis. It was good though, because I tested that hypothesis about whether love can be unrequited. I found it could.

 

And now I spend my evenings wondering if he was a NPD etc.. Maybe he was, but at the end of the day he didn't love me enough.

[White Flower]

I think this is something that mainly the OP would suggest. To get him away from the influence of the marriage and W (family' date=' kids, etc.), to see that he really could survive without those things..[/quote']There are no kids at home but there is definitely influence from the W. There are so many activities booked on the calendar that literally he has to do homework for his counselor in the car 5 minutes before he goes in to see her. If he were living alone he may have written a book instead of a few words. I don't believe he is truly doing meaningul work in counseling due to living at home.

 

But I don't think that's fair to him because he entered the AR as MM, not as a single guy, so why should he have to give up everything to make the OP think he was really free to make up his mind. I think the OPs actually feel this helps them, but it seems to really only cause more problems in the highly conflicted about leaving.

It doesn't really matter that he entered the AR as MM because he is no longer happy as the MM. He shouldn't be in counseling to make the OP 'think' he was really free to make up his mind. He should actually be free to think things through which is very difficult to do when constantly being asked how counseling is going and can you take the trash out and let's not forget dinner with the Joneses on Thursday after you finish painting that fence. How can anybody do the hard work with all these distractions? Men aren't usually multi-taskers (sorry, no offense to the guys).

 

I could be wrong in this opinion, but I really see this hurting the OP more than helping them. It just seems to me that the thing that benefits the OP the most is really a counterintuitive action, not something you'd do in a *normal* R.

Such as?

I read this, and other, forums and seen this enough to think that telling the MM to split from his W, just to placate the OW and make her think he was actually able to focus on the merits of the AR vs. the M, really only seems to blow up in their faces more than anything else. Plus, both women tend to cheat and sneak try to influence him with visits and meals, and etc, etc, until they are still just as in his face when we was at home with the W and still in the A. And help the OW who suggests this knowing that there are minor children involved.

Perhaps that is the difference--I sincerely DON'T want him to placate me. I want him doing the REAL work of healing and being strong for US. If he cannot be strong for himself, there will not be a strong R in our future. I don't believe he is working on the M in fact I know he is working on himself.

 

Haha, I enjoyed the sneaking in stuff to the segregated MM, that was funny. I must admit, I'd probably do that! And I'm sure she would too.

 

This really only starts the real flip flopping in my mind, even though OPs seem to always think it will work out in their favor. It rarely ever does.

What an interesting response and I hadn't considered my OP to be taken as such a manipulative standpoint.

 

I didn't think having MM taking a separation as something that would cause a flip-flop. Honestly, though, I don't neccessarily think it would work in my favor, but I do think it would work in MM's favor and because I love him, that is what I want for him.

[NoIDidn't]

There are no kids at home but there is definitely influence from the W. There are so many activities booked on the calendar that literally he has to do homework for his counselor in the car 5 minutes before he goes in to see her. If he were living alone he may have written a book instead of a few words. I don't believe he is truly doing meaningul work in counseling due to living at home.

It doesn't really matter that he entered the AR as MM because he is no longer happy as the MM. He shouldn't be in counseling to make the OP 'think' he was really free to make up his mind. He should actually be free to think things through which is very difficult to do when constantly being asked how counseling is going and can you take the trash out and let's not forget dinner with the Joneses on Thursday after you finish painting that fence. How can anybody do the hard work with all these distractions? Men aren't usually multi-taskers (sorry, no offense to the guys).:pSuch as?

Perhaps that is the difference--I sincerely DON'T want him to placate me. I want him doing the REAL work of healing and being strong for US. If he cannot be strong for himself, there will not be a strong R in our future. I don't believe he is working on the M in fact I know he is working on himself.

 

Haha, I enjoyed the sneaking in stuff to the segregated MM, that was funny. I must admit, I'd probably do that! And I'm sure she would too.

 

What an interesting response and I hadn't considered my OP to be taken as such a manipulative standpoint.

 

I didn't think having MM taking a separation as something that would cause a flip-flop. Honestly, though, I don't neccessarily think it would work in my favor, but I do think it would work in MM's favor and because I love him, that is what I want for him.

 

I responded generally to a general statement that you made, and you respond specifically as if I were talking about your situation. This makes no sense, WF. Too much spinning going on here. I didn't mention you or your MM specifically so it seems that something has triggered you.

[jennie-jennie]

I responded generally to a general statement that you made' date=' and you respond specifically as if I were talking about your situation. This makes no sense, WF. Too much spinning going on here. I didn't mention you or your MM specifically so it seems that something has triggered you.[/quote']

 

Still, I would say, that WF's post is more general in nature than NID's. I don't identify with much in NID's post, but I do with WF's. I think it is due to misconceptions of what OW want. We don't want the MM to placate us, we want him to find out what it is he really wants. Of course we hope that will be us, but if it is not then we will live with that, the important thing being that he finds out what he is all about.

[pureinheart]

As many of you know, I've been reading a lot to try to figure out wtf happened in the affair, the post-A relationship, and in my life since then. Recently I saw something that may be of interest to folks here, so I thought i'd get another discussion going.

 

Interestingly, it's well documented n social psychology that people have a tendency to "upgrade the chosen option and downgrade the unchosen option" after a decision has been made. Here on LS there's evidence for this - there are plenty of fWS who talk about how they now see the AP in "reality" and how much better their spouse is than the AP. There's also W's to fMM whose H's are apparently happy with their action to the leave the 1st M and downgrade the xW.

 

Because of this tendency to downgrade the unchosen option, people who are told after the decision that they can choose again usually opt for a third choice, not to the originally rejected choice. So, why doesn't this work for MM who leave a M? If it did, we'd expect them to go to a new girlfriend rather than back to the W when things got unpleasant, but yet it appears they more often return to the W (or never really cut ties).

 

So I wondered about the flip-floppers - the ones who made a decision to leave the M and then after some interval return to the W (or fail to cut ties with the W). Finally it hit me (duh!)- they never really made a definitive decision to begin with, they just gave the appearance of such.

 

I don't think "trial togetherness" with an OW works any better than "trial seperation" in a marriage, they both seem to cause the relationships to invariably fail, which I suspect is the point. Trial anything is bascially a lack of full investment one way or the other. The trouble is that OW's often aren't given the heads up that it's just a trial, let alone a trial-togetherness that's concurrent with a trial seperation from the marriage.

 

So basically what I take from all of this is that all xDM's talk about how he "sacrificed" so much for me, that he left "for" me, that he "chose" me, is bull. The proof is in the pudding that he never really chose at all. In a way, that makes me feel more worthless than ever because at least I could hold onto the idea that he chose to be with me. Ugh. Anyone else have any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

 

 

Sounds like more of a guilt trip than anything.

 

You know BL, people need other people to blame when things don't go their way or they are making difficult decisions. I've played the blame game....this is really bad though....

 

Ok it's like if someone steals your wallet, you might have a suspect if they have been known to steal...so let's say they really didn't steal your wallet and you blamed them either outwardly or in your mind...this is a mistake, a misjudgement. Although with your situation he cannot blame you or put guilt trips on you for HIS decision...I totally agree with FA

 

Also with the split self thing....

[jennie-jennie]

And that is why NC is such a great concept in that both women or one woman severing ties to the MM forces him to choose, or at least identify the needs that woman met within him.

 

And IMHO, the flip flopping at that point, MUST come to an end, for better or for worse.

 

Sure, the flip-flopping will end, because the affair ends, because a choice has been made FOR the MM without him having to make one. So if all you want is for the affair to end, then NC is great. If you want the MM to find out what he is all about, then no, NC won't do it.

[jennie-jennie]

Very interesting, Brokenlady, about upgrading the chosen option and downgrading the unchosen option. Sure enough we see this all over Loveshack.

[NoIDidn't]

Still, I would say, that WF's post is more general in nature than NID's. I don't identify with much in NID's post, but I do with WF's. I think it is due to misconceptions of what OW want. We don't want the MM to placate us, we want him to find out what it is he really wants. Of course we hope that will be us, but if it is not then we will live with that, the important thing being that he finds out what he is all about.

 

Yet, your response shows that you misunderstood what I actually posted. I didn't say that the OP wanted the MP to placate them. I said they do things TO placate the OP. Big difference.

 

Most of the time, the MP isn't interested in finding out what they really want, as they already have it. As long as there is an A, they don't have to make a choice. And once the OP starts demanding that they make one, most MPs assume that means that the OP wants them to choose the OP and not the marriage. It is under this assumption that most will do just about anything TO placate the OP under the guise of making a decision.

 

Moving out and away from their family, placates the OP and gives them a false sense of security. It rarely ever works out in the favor of the OP. I've seen this happen most of the time, on LS, other sites, and IRL.