Solution?

[Hazyhead]

I really need to use less parethesis!

 

Here's me chucking all my brackets away - )))))))) ((((((((

[White Flower]

Well, HH, I tried.....and I tried....and then 2 years post DDay I succeeded.

 

And I was vastly disappointed I must say.

 

She held a certain opinion of me in her head (I'm sure knowingly or unknowingly aided by WS:eek:) and needless to say, it did not go well. I am convinced she still harbors feelings for him (I get that) but really could not handle me being a mature and kind woman. I sensed she still needs to vilify me as the horrible wifey, or that he returned simply because he adores his children. I guess I get that too.

 

So, it depends on the type of woman you are dealing with.

 

Would a BS lie? I am sure many would!

 

Would an OW? Again, I am sure many would! Mine did)

 

But think on this: One reconciliation web site says whatever the BS needs to heal, they need.

 

One woman asked her WS to arrange a meeting between the three of them to sit and talk and disclose, and he did!

 

Can you imagine it? I think that is three very highly evolved people to agree to that.

 

No more secrets and lies left unrevealed between all parties involved in an affair. Amazing!

That IS quite amazing. I could see myself and MM doing such, but not his W. He says she is very emotional, blunt, and...not IQ gifted. I hope that comes off as nice as it is intended.

 

Spark, you and I have discussed this before. I think you and I could have been successful at a meeting such as the one you described above. It sounds as though that the meeting with your H's exOW didn't go so well because IMHO she was less gifted in IQ as you, as well as EQ. You caught her lying, and you observed her behavior in the past (meeting at the beach on vacation where she imposed). THAT experience hinted to me that your meeting with her wouldn't go so well but at least you got a meeting.

 

She probably couldn't handle that you were mature and kind because 1) it made her feel less of a woman, and 2) she may not have been told of your true nature. A third possibility is that the love she thought she had with exMM did not mature as she had hoped (and believed in), making her feel used. She may have felt she had a future with your H when really all she became was a casualty. I'm sure in light of that the meeting with you was difficult for her.

 

Just thinking out loud here. If the W is the thinker, has the higher EQ, plus IS the love of her H's life, and she wins MM, does the OW with the same qualities including being the love of MM's life have the same chances of winning?

[PhoenixRise]

Exactly. If the goal is to merely get the info in order to save the M they might learn a few things that would turn them away forever! And that is the reason I think most BS don't want to take that meeting. The truth would hurt too much and D would be inevitable. Believing MP and burying the head in the sand will save the M.

 

 

I see many times here, other forums, and IRL that it is the BS (usually BW) who wants to talk to the AP. On this forum it is usually other OW who advise the AP not to talk to the spouse and instead direct her to talk to her husband.

 

I know in my case I talked to the FOW more than once. She never dodged me at all as far as I can tell. Every time I called she answered or if she missed my call she called me back pretty quickly. It humanized her to me. There was a time or two when she initiated contact with me and I always took her call. It was always civil and we both learned truths that had been hidden.

[Hazyhead]

xMM's W asked for this after the 1st DDay, HE talked her out of it, I wonder why??

I can see now that he kept me sweet to stop me from talking to his W and now he has talked his W into not contacting me so they can put it all behind them....yeah right whatever!!

 

Did she really do that? I'll bet if she is that way inclined she will never be able to just put it behind her. The undisclosed will eat at her over time.

[White Flower]

I can see how this could happen. It makes me sad. Still, a lot of people cope better like that, maintaining the status quo as much as they can is what keeps them going.

It makes me very sad too. Angry in fact because depending on the reasons for cheating this burying the head in the sand repeats the cheating cycle. If sex addiction is a factor, for example, not dealing with it forces it to continue. Accepting the lies and 'forgiving' what you don't really know exists triggers the pattern to repeat itself. It is ignorance at its best and the addict knows it.

[Spark1111]

Thanks, HH....but here is my point:

 

I refused to engage in the win-lose mind set. I gave him the freedom to choose her, if he so wanted. I only had empathy in my heart for her intially; three people in a triangle, three get hurt.

 

But two years later, I sense she loves/hates him (depending on her audience?) and really despises me.

 

So, why the avoidance of my calls? They were kind and mature and totally non-threatening.

 

Because she still needs to believe whatever her perceptions were during the affair ARE STILL TRUE; he pines for her still, and I must be a b***ch!

 

Some people refuse to grow and change and introspect. Doubt she is here posting at LS or any other relationship site.

 

Be proud of yourself that you are!

[White Flower]

Did she really do that? I'll bet if she is that way inclined she will never be able to just put it behind her. The undisclosed will eat at her over time.

And she will allow it to because whatever unknown is eating at her feels slightly better than dealing with the truth and risking ultimately losing him.

[White Flower]

I would have taken that meeting in a heartbeat. I am the BS. I couldn't seem to get the other two parties on board though. ;)

 

WF, it would have been horribly hurtful to the OW too, in many instances, and it would have been the ultimate humiliation for the WS.

 

But the truth would have set everyone free to choose their future as they saw fit, IMHO.

 

Two years later, I am in a better place. I do not think she is, though. As for him, he is in IC for it all.:o:o

You are right about that, it must be said. A lot of OWs believe they are the 'go to girl' for the relief of stress and the pouring out of the heart from MM but in reality they could be and often are gaslighted just as much.

[White Flower]

It's unfortunate that you dealt with an OW like that, Spark. (God, get that! It's unfortunate that you dealt with an OW at all!) If I put myself in the place of the BS (definitely something I do more post A than during) I think I would want details, even destructive ones probably. Wouldn't be able to help myself. I hate not knowing things (maybe that's a control thing) so I can't imagine how hard it is when you can't get the full truth no matter how you try. Frustrated ain't the word!

 

For what it's worth Spark, you're clearly many times the woman she is. I'd better anything on your husband being aware of that constantly.

 

(I can't believe that wife-swap style meeting actually happened! OMG! )

Not so sure it is a control thing as much as an analytical thing. If you're the type that wants to know, then you're the type who likes to deal with things, work them through, and make them better. You're an acheiver.

 

I have a friend who is very controlling and even admits it. Yet, she wants to know absolutely nothing of her WH's behavior. She has found numbers in his cell phone and refuses to call them. Don't ask, don't tell. She just isn't analytical and she doesn't look for solutions.

[hopeless4u]

And she will allow it to because whatever unknown is eating at her feels slightly better than dealing with the truth and risking ultimately losing him.

 

Yep, got it in 1 WF and I said that to him. This is the kind of woman he wants, 1 who will except the man(if you can call him that) he is.

 

I actually asked him what he would do if she said she wanted to D him....his answer was...'I wouldn't try to change her mind' WTF!!

[Hazyhead]

It makes me very sad too. Angry in fact because depending on the reasons for cheating this burying the head in the sand repeats the cheating cycle. If sex addiction is a factor, for example, not dealing with it forces it to continue. Accepting the lies and 'forgiving' what you don't really know exists triggers the pattern to repeat itself. It is ignorance at its best and the addict knows it.

 

More often than not, I'll bet. My xMM was on his second strike and so if she forgives this one too easily I fear for him that he will not do the necessary work to improve himself so that he does not repeat the pattern. It's a shame.

[White Flower]

I see many times here, other forums, and IRL that it is the BS (usually BW) who wants to talk to the AP. On this forum it is usually other OW who advise the AP not to talk to the spouse and instead direct her to talk to her husband.

 

I know in my case I talked to the FOW more than once. She never dodged me at all as far as I can tell. Every time I called she answered or if she missed my call she called me back pretty quickly. It humanized her to me. There was a time or two when she initiated contact with me and I always took her call. It was always civil and we both learned truths that had been hidden.

That is quite amazing that the fOW in your case willingly communicated with you. My guess is that you are an approachable and level-headed woman and that you made it a safe place for her to open up. I've been told by MM that his W would gladly cause a scene in public, yell and scream at me to keep my paws off him as if I am some great seductress who has evil powers over him. I don't think we'd have such luck as you did. BTW, she has called me twice but left no message. I'm told if I would have answered, she would have screamed at me to leave her H alone and then hung up. It would have been a one way conversation. I am told she is the angry and pushy type and would draw a line in the sand then storm off. She knows my number, but does not call. My guess is she would be surprised to find that I was the level-headed one, the one she would have to control her emotions in front of.

[Hazyhead]

Not so sure it is a control thing as much as an analytical thing. If you're the type that wants to know, then you're the type who likes to deal with things, work them through, and make them better. You're an acheiver.

 

I have a friend who is very controlling and even admits it. Yet, she wants to know absolutely nothing of her WH's behavior. She has found numbers in his cell phone and refuses to call them. Don't ask, don't tell. She just isn't analytical and she doesn't look for solutions.

 

Maybe with your friend it's something she feels is out of her control and to face it would be admitting so and a real struggle for her to gain control. If she is not comfortable with that maybe that's why she doesn't face it.

[Hazyhead]

That is quite amazing that the fOW in your case willingly communicated with you. My guess is that you are an approachable and level-headed woman and that you made it a safe place for her to open up. I've been told by MM that his W would gladly cause a scene in public, yell and scream at me to keep my paws off him as if I am some great seductress who has evil powers over him. I don't think we'd have such luck as you did. BTW, she has called me twice but left no message. I'm told if I would have answered, she would have screamed at me to leave her H alone and then hung up. It would have been a one way conversation. I am told she is the angry and pushy type and would draw a line in the sand then storm off. She knows my number, but does not call. My guess is she would be surprised to find that I was the level-headed one, the one she would have to control her emotions in front of.

 

I agree with this; you made it safe for her to open up to you. Good for you, PR. Even though I only spoke to the BS once and very briefly in my situation, she was certainly not approachable! I wouldn't intitiate contact with her, put it that way.

[White Flower]

More often than not, I'll bet. My xMM was on his second strike and so if she forgives this one too easily I fear for him that he will not do the necessary work to improve himself so that he does not repeat the pattern. It's a shame.

You are absolutely right in fearing that. MM did the same over and over again until I came along.

 

I am not a head-burier. I noticed things, investigated, and discovered the truth. I confronted him and we talked it all out over a year and a half length of time. While becoming self-aware and wanting to make positive changes, he did not pick up books or go to counseling even though all this communication and self-discovery solidified our R.

 

He did not get himself into counseling until our last D-day. I know he is doing the work this time because I'm getting regular reports which have been amazing. He needed this D-day and I'm glad it happened. This time, he will have to tell her everything or walk away. either choice will be difficult but will be life-altering for sure.

 

If he does leave her, I'm not sure it would serve any justice to tell her of the years of infidelity. I would want to know, but not so sure she could handle it.

[Fallen Angel]

I can understand that and I too was guilty of it during the affair. Now, I'm open with anyone who asks, which is shocking some people close to me, but i've been amazed at their support and I have to say it makes me feel... relieved almost, that the truth is out. My truth anyway. I know if I did this it would burn my bridges to xMM forever and a part of me would find relief in that too - that, as exciting and wonderful it was for the two of us whilst in it, it's now not just hurtful to us two but those around us. It would be better, in my opinion, to deal with the truth all at once rather than bit by bit as it drips out. It could be organised like that tv show Wifeswap where we all sit around a table and discuss it

 

LMAO... You should pitch the idea to one of the networks.. for a new reality show... you just need to think of some really catchy name for it.

 

(I know if they had that show I would never miss an episode.. I would buy a TIVO to make sure! :lmao:)

[White Flower]

LMAO... You should pitch the idea to one of the networks.. for a new reality show... you just need to think of some really catchy name for it.

 

(I know if they had that show I would never miss an episode.. I would buy a TIVO to make sure! :lmao:)

Do you know I have thought of creating a reality show on this??? I'm sure it would have the highest ratings.

[Hazyhead]

LMAO... You should pitch the idea to one of the networks.. for a new reality show... you just need to think of some really catchy name for it.

 

(I know if they had that show I would never miss an episode.. I would buy a TIVO to make sure! :lmao:)

 

Do you know I have thought of creating a reality show on this??? I'm sure it would have the highest ratings.

 

Yes!!! God, I'll be furious if it appears on tv now, I'll be like 'THAT'S MY IDEA!' (Even though it was technically yours FA)

[Hazyhead]

You are absolutely right in fearing that. MM did the same over and over again until I came along.

 

I am not a head-burier. I noticed things, investigated, and discovered the truth. I confronted him and we talked it all out over a year and a half length of time. While becoming self-aware and wanting to make positive changes, he did not pick up books or go to counseling even though all this communication and self-discovery solidified our R.

 

He did not get himself into counseling until our last D-day. I know he is doing the work this time because I'm getting regular reports which have been amazing. He needed this D-day and I'm glad it happened. This time, he will have to tell her everything or walk away. either choice will be difficult but will be life-altering for sure.

 

If he does leave her, I'm not sure it would serve any justice to tell her of the years of infidelity. I would want to know, but not so sure she could handle it.

 

I'm not a head burier either and if I confront something or someone that is not good for me and I can't work it out with that conflict then it would be best to eradicate it from my life as much as possible.

 

It's good that your AP is getting his counseling now. It will be interesting what is uncovered!

[White Flower]

I'm not a head burier either and if I confront something or someone that is not good for me and I can't work it out with that conflict then it would be best to eradicate it from my life as much as possible.

 

It's good that your AP is getting his counseling now. It will be interesting what is uncovered!

Trust me, I await with bated breath! And when I know, you'll know.

[Hazyhead]

Trust me, I await with bated breath! And when I know, you'll know.

 

I look forward to it. From what you say about his wife maybe she should have a little bit of it herself too.

[White Flower]

I look forward to it. From what you say about his wife maybe she should have a little bit of it herself too.

They are both in IC. She felt compelled to go since he wasn't reporting his sessions back to her. I'm glad she is getting support.

[StillFighting]

I absolutely would want to sit down and have a conversation with the OW. Though of course part of me rages on the inside and has thought about decking her in the face if I had the chance (sorry, but it's true), I know that I am and have always been a logical and rational person. Even with all of this emotional terror I am going through, if I let it slip that "I hate" either of them, I automatically feel guilty. I am not one to hate anyone or wish harm, despite how much pain I am going through. If I were to sit down with her, it would really be just to get the truth. For both of us. I have no idea what stories he has been telling her and vice versa. And at this point, I trust strangers to tell me the truth more than I trust what my H says. Plus, it would just be interesting to see things from her perspective. Realistically, I know that she is probably a nice person. My H is generally a good judge of character, so in a different situation, I would probably like the woman.

 

In fact, I did propose the three of us sitting down together. I do not know her personally, so I am not sure how she would feel/react, but the limiting factor is my H. There is no way he would be able to set aside his own discomfort for this to happen. I actually just met the OW recently. He had tried to prevent us from being at the same function, but I demanded that I attend. The primary reason was that I want to be part of his whole life, which includes work events. Secondarily, I wanted to meet her. I wanted to to make myself believe that it was all real. He says he was not sure how I would react, but realistically, I know he just wanted to avoid an uncomfortable situation for himself.

 

I remember after Dday, I thought it was so strange because even only a day into finding out that my H was having the A, I immediately put myself into both their shoes. I wanted to understand why the A was happening and what to do about it. I always try to see every situation from each person's perspective. I contacted her right away with an email, no rude words, no insults, just asking her to let my husband and I deal with our personal issues and for her to do the same with her husband. I told my H he needed to stop playing both of us. If he truly did love her/care about her, then by spending time with me and supposedly trying to work on our marriage while still telling her he loved her and cared about her, he was actually hurting her also. He was keeping both of us hanging on for so long and I honestly did, and to a degree still do, empathize with her. As someone mentioned in another post, we are both in love with the same man...so we have that in common. Plus, he loves us both which means we probably have a lot of the same qualities. Bizarre actually.

[White Flower]

I absolutely would want to sit down and have a conversation with the OW. Though of course part of me rages on the inside and has thought about decking her in the face if I had the chance (sorry, but it's true), I know that I am and have always been a logical and rational person. Even with all of this emotional terror I am going through, if I let it slip that "I hate" either of them, I automatically feel guilty. I am not one to hate anyone or wish harm, despite how much pain I am going through. If I were to sit down with her, it would really be just to get the truth. For both of us. I have no idea what stories he has been telling her and vice versa. And at this point, I trust strangers to tell me the truth more than I trust what my H says. Plus, it would just be interesting to see things from her perspective. Realistically, I know that she is probably a nice person. My H is generally a good judge of character, so in a different situation, I would probably like the woman.

 

In fact, I did propose the three of us sitting down together. I do not know her personally, so I am not sure how she would feel/react, but the limiting factor is my H. There is no way he would be able to set aside his own discomfort for this to happen. I actually just met the OW recently. He had tried to prevent us from being at the same function, but I demanded that I attend. The primary reason was that I want to be part of his whole life, which includes work events. Secondarily, I wanted to meet her. I wanted to to make myself believe that it was all real. He says he was not sure how I would react, but realistically, I know he just wanted to avoid an uncomfortable situation for himself.

 

I remember after Dday, I thought it was so strange because even only a day into finding out that my H was having the A, I immediately put myself into both their shoes. I wanted to understand why the A was happening and what to do about it. I always try to see every situation from each person's perspective. I contacted her right away with an email, no rude words, no insults, just asking her to let my husband and I deal with our personal issues and for her to do the same with her husband. I told my H he needed to stop playing both of us. If he truly did love her/care about her, then by spending time with me and supposedly trying to work on our marriage while still telling her he loved her and cared about her, he was actually hurting her also. He was keeping both of us hanging on for so long and I honestly did, and to a degree still do, empathize with her. As someone mentioned in another post, we are both in love with the same man...so we have that in common. Plus, he loves us both which means we probably have a lot of the same qualities. Bizarre actually.

I don't think it's too bizarre. You are both in love with the same man and there were bound to be similarities as well as differences between both of you.

 

You have a lot of empathy which tells us that have a lot of understanding for everyone involved. I have noticed that most BSs who do empathize tend to end up saving the M. That may be a factoring quality, along with wanting to understand all the dynamics of the A, which is successful in saving Ms after an A.

[fooled once]

Responding to Hazy's original post here -- that would be great BUT each person have "their view" and they won't allow (probably) to be told that they meant nothing, the MM made fun of them behind their backs, threw them each under the bus, etc.

 

The OW is going to continue to think she was loved best, the wife is going to think she was loved best.

 

I think both parties could provide insight, but in all honestly, I think both will come away from the meeting thinking the other is crazy and a liar.