Solution?

[White Flower]

Responding to Hazy's original post here -- that would be great BUT each person have "their view" and they won't allow (probably) to be told that they meant nothing, the MM made fun of them behind their backs, threw them each under the bus, etc.

 

The OW is going to continue to think she was loved best, the wife is going to think she was loved best.

 

I think both parties could provide insight, but in all honestly, I think both will come away from the meeting thinking the other is crazy and a liar.

That would depend on their level of intelligence and judge of character. I'm not so sure they would go into a meeting of that nature with that ideology in advance. If they are going to find the truth, bets are that they would be sharing the truth. Neither of them believe MM so each must rely on the truth of the other.

[wheelwright]

The OW is going to continue to think she was loved best, the wife is going to think she was loved best.

 

I think both parties could provide insight, but in all honestly, I think both will come away from the meeting thinking the other is crazy and a liar.

 

After being thrown under a bus, what sane OW thinks she was loved best?

 

She is thrown into the kind of turmoil we see here on LS. Like OMG he really didn't love me, or did he? The hell of not knowing, which mirrors the BSs not knowing. Only the WS knows, and often times he is too split to make any sense of it.

 

Nature of the beast.

 

I would dearly love to talk to my xAPs BS but no chance. They did a combined throwing under the bus. They closed ranks.

 

I want to know why she is so hurt when she had said she never loved him. I want to know why it was such a big deal to her when this is what she felt.

 

I want to know if she is grateful that the A re-opened the connection between her and her WS (which I know it did, at least temporarily).

 

I want to know if she forgives him, because him splitting with me broke my heart, but for him it was seeing that his family may be split that broke his heart.

 

I want to know if she cares about my broken heart. I want to know if I should care about hers if she has one.

 

I want to tell her that he never bad mouthed her to me, that it cost him much angst to have the A. I want her to know that he thought he loved me, even if he doesn't think that now.

 

I want her to know that I wouldn't have had an A with her H if it had been a happy R between them. That I respect a love bond above a M one. That I didn't want to desroy her family, but that I loved her H like I had never loved before.

 

I want to say sorry.

 

I want her to understand (i know I have no right).

 

I want to discuss with her how far she thinks her H has NPD!

 

She wants to keep me at a great arms length.

 

I am sure all BSs react differently. I am someone who wants to know all sides, and for others to do the same.

 

But their closing ranks was very effective. It was a loud and clear message that it was about them and I had nothing to do with it.

[fooled once]

After being thrown under a bus, what sane OW thinks she was loved best?

 

She is thrown into the kind of turmoil we see here on LS. Like OMG he really didn't love me, or did he? The hell of not knowing, which mirrors the BSs not knowing. Only the WS knows, and often times he is too split to make any sense of it.

 

Nature of the beast.

 

I would dearly love to talk to my xAPs BS but no chance. They did a combined throwing under the bus. They closed ranks.

 

I want to know why she is so hurt when she had said she never loved him. I want to know why it was such a big deal to her when this is what she felt.

 

I want to know if she is grateful that the A re-opened the connection between her and her WS (which I know it did, at least temporarily).

 

I want to know if she forgives him, because him splitting with me broke my heart, but for him it was seeing that his family may be split that broke his heart.

 

I want to know if she cares about my broken heart. I want to know if I should care about hers if she has one.

 

I want to tell her that he never bad mouthed her to me, that it cost him much angst to have the A. I want her to know that he thought he loved me, even if he doesn't think that now.

 

I want her to know that I wouldn't have had an A with her H if it had been a happy R between them. That I respect a love bond above a M one. That I didn't want to desroy her family, but that I loved her H like I had never loved before.

 

I want to say sorry.

 

I want her to understand (i know I have no right).

 

I want to discuss with her how far she thinks her H has NPD!

 

She wants to keep me at a great arms length.

 

I am sure all BSs react differently. I am someone who wants to know all sides, and for others to do the same.

 

But their closing ranks was very effective. It was a loud and clear message that it was about them and I had nothing to do with it.

 

Regarding what I bolded, I can tell you two OW right off the bat (members here) who have POSTED that exact stuff -- that the MM will NEVER love the wife like he loves her, even though she just got hit by a SEMI driven by the MM;)

 

And once again - these are MY views. No one has to agree with them, but after reading here and there -- and knowing a few OW (including myself) - I am just speaking what *I* feel/know.

[pureinheart]

Absolutely not. Both women have way too much incentive to lie. When xDM's xW called me, she did so with the intent to hurt me, to get me out of the way - not because she wanted to clear the air. Some of what she told me was true (and I was glad to have my gut confirmed), but much was not true (and independently verifiable). She did successfully disrupt my relationship with him, but she didn't get what she wanted - him to come back to her.

 

For my part, I was completely honest - perhaps more so than I should have been. Frankly, the truth was bad enough! But I could see where an OW might want to lie to get the W so angry she'd "get out of the way". When one or both woman are still very emotionally attached to the MM, this is just a recipe for increasing, rather than decreasing any insecurity and mistrust.

 

 

Totally agree...both women would have to have total objectivity, and even if they do, unconsciencly would have their own agendas/interests.

 

I was also honest, although I see little point in having every gory detail, and in a sense is torment to the OP.

[pureinheart]

Responding to Hazy's original post here -- that would be great BUT each person have "their view" and they won't allow (probably) to be told that they meant nothing, the MM made fun of them behind their backs, threw them each under the bus, etc.

 

The OW is going to continue to think she was loved best, the wife is going to think she was loved best.

 

I think both parties could provide insight, but in all honestly, I think both will come away from the meeting thinking the other is crazy and a liar.

 

In my case, this is the best answer...

[pureinheart]

After being thrown under a bus, what sane OW thinks she was loved best?

 

She is thrown into the kind of turmoil we see here on LS. Like OMG he really didn't love me, or did he? The hell of not knowing, which mirrors the BSs not knowing. Only the WS knows, and often times he is too split to make any sense of it.

 

Nature of the beast.

 

I would dearly love to talk to my xAPs BS but no chance. They did a combined throwing under the bus. They closed ranks.

 

I want to know why she is so hurt when she had said she never loved him. I want to know why it was such a big deal to her when this is what she felt.

 

I want to know if she is grateful that the A re-opened the connection between her and her WS (which I know it did, at least temporarily).

 

I want to know if she forgives him, because him splitting with me broke my heart, but for him it was seeing that his family may be split that broke his heart.

 

I want to know if she cares about my broken heart. I want to know if I should care about hers if she has one.

 

I want to tell her that he never bad mouthed her to me, that it cost him much angst to have the A. I want her to know that he thought he loved me, even if he doesn't think that now.

 

I want her to know that I wouldn't have had an A with her H if it had been a happy R between them. That I respect a love bond above a M one. That I didn't want to desroy her family, but that I loved her H like I had never loved before.

 

I want to say sorry.

 

I want her to understand (i know I have no right).

 

I want to discuss with her how far she thinks her H has NPD!

 

She wants to keep me at a great arms length.

 

I am sure all BSs react differently. I am someone who wants to know all sides, and for others to do the same.

 

But their closing ranks was very effective. It was a loud and clear message that it was about them and I had nothing to do with it.

 

It would be the ideal WW...to talk like adults such as the things you suggested...now I feel this way , although at the time and I know this is going to sound extremely strange, but this is what happened.

 

His family stayed away from me UNTIL he conveniently left up the email that said "YOU ARE MARRIED, stay away from me"....which I think this was the green light for them to attack, and they did.

 

Which IMO was very stupid on their part as I was on their side per sey...so I shut down and realised they were crazy and would not talk with the exception of an email that was short and to the point. They began to start a series of attacks concerning my job, home, ect...

[pureinheart]

Concerning the OP...I have two learned experiences that I think are very relevent...

 

One must be careful as you do not know what exactly is being dealt with...

 

The first one is partially described in a reply to WW...the second was my fiancee was murdered by the jealousy of an ex-gf who was M to his cousin and couldnot handle seeing him with me...so she informed her H and father that she could not live with him and me being together...hence his murder...

 

Trust me, you never know what you are dealing with...it just happened that I had gotten a job and started the night he was killed...would I be dead too?

[White Flower]

Concerning the OP...I have two learned experiences that I think are very relevent...

 

One must be careful as you do not know what exactly is being dealt with...

 

The first one is partially described in a reply to WW...the second was my fiancee was murdered by the jealousy of an ex-gf who was M to his cousin and couldnot handle seeing him with me...so she informed her H and father that she could not live with him and me being together...hence his murder...

 

Trust me, you never know what you are dealing with...it just happened that I had gotten a job and started the night he was killed...would I be dead too?

 

That is some pretty heavy stuff to contemplate pureinheart. What an experience. I'm glad you're ok and that you're able to pass on the story. How did it change your life?

[Spark1111]

Well, I think you do get an idea of who you are dealing with over time....Most BS and OW do not go to great lengths to harrass each other after DDAy, IMHO.

 

The ones that do get arrested or make the newspapers for destruction of property, harrassment, etc. Some people are really JUST crazy and capable of anything in this very volatile triangle.

 

But I too wanted to understand the affair and had only empathy in my heart for a single mom.

 

Over time, I thought we could discuss it all in a mature manner.

 

When we did finally speak two years later, here was what was most intriguing to me; she did not ask me ONE single question, not one.

 

So, I can only assume she still thinks she knows it all, he came back for the kids, blah, blah, blah....as if I WOULD ALLOW THAT; as if I did not have higher standards, as if I didn't have a bag packed and a foot out the door for over a year.....

 

She knows nothing about the real me, and I can only assume does not want to.

 

And I find that unevolved. Don't you want to know what the hell happened after almost two years of your life?

 

Some do. Some REALLY do not.

[Spark1111]

And WW, as for the family splitting apart; well, that may be true in some cases.....but it is also a very convenient excuse to end an affair, IMHO.

 

The MM/MW can continue to look like the hapless hero in his AP's eyes. How noble! Self-sacrifice for the family unit, the children. Our great unrequited love remains forever true.

 

I had a plan for my future that did not include him, and my children were on board and extremely supportive.

 

I also told them that if this is who your father chooses to spend his life with, I expect all of you to treat her with respect.

 

Doubt he told her that.

[OWoman]

And WW, as for the family splitting apart; well, that may be true in some cases.....but it is also a very convenient excuse to end an affair, IMHO.

 

The MM/MW can continue to look like the hapless hero in his AP's eyes. How noble! Self-sacrifice for the family unit, the children. Our great unrequited love remains forever true.

 

I had a plan for my future that did not include him, and my children were on board and extremely supportive.

 

I also told them that if this is who your father chooses to spend his life with, I expect all of you to treat her with respect.

 

Doubt he told her that.

 

Spark, your emotional maturity and generosity really are impressive - I'd like to be like you when I grow up

[Hazyhead]

I don't think it's too bizarre. You are both in love with the same man and there were bound to be similarities as well as differences between both of you.

 

You have a lot of empathy which tells us that have a lot of understanding for everyone involved. I have noticed that most BSs who do empathize tend to end up saving the M. That may be a factoring quality, along with wanting to understand all the dynamics of the A, which is successful in saving Ms after an A.

 

I can see how empathy could help heal broken bonds - it takes an extremely emotionally mature person to do that, I think. Spark and Still Fighting, I don't know that I could hande your situation remotely as well as you did.

 

I think its possible to stay together without the empathy (I can't imagine the BS of my xAP has much of it), but the emotional connection between the two spouses may not be as strong.

[Hazyhead]

Responding to Hazy's original post here -- that would be great BUT each person have "their view" and they won't allow (probably) to be told that they meant nothing, the MM made fun of them behind their backs, threw them each under the bus, etc.

 

The OW is going to continue to think she was loved best, the wife is going to think she was loved best.

 

I think both parties could provide insight, but in all honestly, I think both will come away from the meeting thinking the other is crazy and a liar.

 

This may be the case in a lot of As but I agree with WF, it would be unlikely that participants with that motivation would arrange to meet in the first place, because it would have to be from at least one of them; I can't really see the WS saying 'Hey ladies, how's about we all sit down and really sort these issues out'. Unless, he has a whole other motivation altogether!

[Hazyhead]

Concerning the OP...I have two learned experiences that I think are very relevent...

 

One must be careful as you do not know what exactly is being dealt with...

 

The first one is partially described in a reply to WW...the second was my fiancee was murdered by the jealousy of an ex-gf who was M to his cousin and couldnot handle seeing him with me...so she informed her H and father that she could not live with him and me being together...hence his murder...

 

Trust me, you never know what you are dealing with...it just happened that I had gotten a job and started the night he was killed...would I be dead too?

 

How awful, Pure. A story like yours should be enough of a warning to anybody.

[White Flower]

Spark, your emotional maturity and generosity really are impressive - I'd like to be like you when I grow up

I'll second that motion:cool:

[seren]

In response to the original question posed as to whether a solution would be for AP and BS to sit and discuss 'things'. The difficulty, IMHO, is that both want answers and the truth about a situation they are experiencing in a very different way. DDay for the AP, depending on the outcome, can be either a relief or hell. For the BS it is nearly always hell, simply because of the hurt and betrayal, OK perhaps not so different for the AP if there were expectations of WS leaving, but AP always knew about BS. So, discussion at this point, from BS point of view would always be tinged with hate (and yes mean that). With time, and rationality of blame shifting onto WS, discussion can take place. Hope this makes sense, thinking aloud.

 

From my experience, first conversation went something like:

 

OW: I don't believe him when he says it is over, I know him and he loves me.

BW (me): Well I don't control him and I have been with him 20+ years and I thought I knew him - did he tell you he loved you?

OW: No. But I know your marriage was over.

BW: Well, I didn't know it was over so until I know, then surely it is still on.

OW: You hadn't had sex for some time

BW: Umm no, I had treatment for ovarian cancer

OW: The bastard

BW: Yes on that we can agree.

 

Numerous conversations later and with me making some pretty life changing decisions based on what H had told me about the A, I rang OW and said that before I did that I wanted to base the next stage of my life on truth - did I feel at that point that H would give me that, well I would have been pretty stupid to think he had told me all as he was busy trying to save our marriage. OW kindly filled in the gaps, and I thanked her for her honesty, actually wished her well, still do. OW apologised, not her place to, but she needed to, I listened while she told me about her marriage and when she asked me not to tell her husband, I agreed not to. Yes I know all say it is the right thing to do, but it was my call and hers (I digress) thing is, she helped me to see the A for what it was - 2 people (AP and H) both caught up in feeling not wanted (my and her H's bad) and finding each other, trouble was she fell in love and so based her version of the A differently to H - she actually told me she knew H was never leaving me, loved me and I felt very sorry for her, and actually would not allow H to bad mouth her.

 

Thing is, the only person with a true handle on the A was my H and he would have said anything post D Day to save our marriage - I got the truth, sure OW could have lied her arse off but the only real truth was H had affair, he and I wanted it to work and anything else was really irrelevant, the where, how, was not so important, just the why, but have come to realise that with hindsight and the distance of D day. Saying all that, I couldn't have sat at a table with her, yes afraid I would have punched her in the face (not rational just primal) but it would have stopped my not being nice to people in supermarkets 'just incase' it was her. Sorry have rambled on - again!!

We really aren't all that different.

[RedDevil66]

My ex's cheater came to me to talk to me. He left me, came back two weeks later telling me he made a mistake, I took him back, 5 months into it, she came to me to ask me if I was still with him because she was.

I let her into my home, she saw flowers he sent me. She told me he sent her the same ones and she told me everything.

We confronted him together (in his new apartment) the next day. They confessed some REALLY SICK sh&t to me, I got up to leave. She asked me to drive her home,

I did and she told me "I'm really in love with him"

 

I said "Then God help you, he's all yours"

 

After 11 yrs, I walked away.

 

I'm glad the trash bag had the sense to approach me since she had HIV and was screwing my ex for a yr unprotected and he (trash bag #2) came home to have sex with me unprotected.

 

Had she not confronted me with this truth, I may have gotten aids.

 

Bless her heart.

 

If it happened today with my current BF, I would hope the cheater would have the courage to tell me also.

Living in a lie is sad as hell!

[pureinheart]

That is some pretty heavy stuff to contemplate pureinheart. What an experience. I'm glad you're ok and that you're able to pass on the story. How did it change your life?

 

Thanks WF....I came back extremely angry (this took place in a small town in Louisiana)...later on in life a councellor told me I had survivors guilt, I was 19 yrs old at the time.

 

It's a good thing my dad sent me an airline ticket asap as I was out to hurt someone...my friend that I went to LA with, that I recently caught up with after all of these years told me that I went looking for his murderer(s)....I don't remember but we tore up his house bad and my friend took the rap and when going to bail her out of jail I saw his murder....it took two cops and my other guy friend to hold me back from ripping this guys head off.

 

I went to visit the town 20 yrs later and nothing had changed....even the displays at the EZ Mart that I worked at for 1 day were still the same...a little eeri if you ask me....

 

I am just now delving into the deeper areas of effect concerning the survivors guilt...I would assume that I beat myself up a lot....it's interesting how these things set the stage for self destruction....

[bentnotbroken]

I'll second that motion:cool:

 

 

Ditto.

[bentnotbroken]

I would have taken that meeting in a heartbeat. I am the BS. I couldn't seem to get the other two parties on board though. ;)

 

WF, it would have been horribly hurtful to the OW too, in many instances, and it would have been the ultimate humiliation for the WS.

 

But the truth would have set everyone free to choose their future as they saw fit, IMHO.

 

Two years later, I am in a better place. I do not think she is, though. As for him, he is in IC for it all.:o:o

 

 

I asked for a meeting with the 4 of us right after d-day. I wanted to see if I would get the truth(didn't figure I would so I had filed a few weeks before d-day)needless to say Mr. Messy nor the OW wanted to met with the us. I did take an opportunity later to met with her, no I didn't get the truth but I didn't expect to either. I just wanted her to face look me in the face and lie.

 

I finally came to the conclusion that I won't ever know the truth and the reason is the 2 of them have lied to themselves so much, they don't know the truth. They believe their own lies. You can't provide the truth if you can't even be truthful with yourself.

 

One would hope that at some point in they will seek whatever help they need to heal, but I wouldn't count on it. I know Mr. Messy believes that he is the exception to every rule and that the world is the one wrong not him. I suspect ow is the same way.

[pureinheart]

I would just suggest caution as these can be explosive situations. I meantioned two and remembered two more...for quick referrence:

 

First) Fiancee murdered by exgf (jealousy)

 

Second) ExH's new gf was extremely jealous of me, with no reason, I didnot contact him at all. I had to call the cops on those two quite often as she would get him riled up continually. I eventually wrote off all back child support because she was crazy and didnot encourage a R with the kids until he was done with her....after one of their fights he was taken to jail and spent 4 mo and I know she lied.

 

Third) A guy from work was continually asking me out...he lied to me and said he was broken up with his gf (she was an aquaintance, we worked in the same field)...well he wasn't. I found out later she was driving by my house, calling me and hanging up and had followed both he and I.

 

Fourth) EA...broke it off with MM and his family came after me, my job, everything.

 

I would take precautions if one is going to have any type of contact with the OP....

 

Meet at a safe, populated location and make sure that no one is following you when you leave.

 

I wouldnot give a phone # as these can be traced and your address can be identified...this can happen with email addys also.

 

Only one of my situations was due to an A...imagine the heightened emotions with an A and try not to kid yourself that all is well with the BS or OW/OM....oh and BTW this is for BS's too....there have been threads in the past here concerning OW pestering ect the BS....I remember at least 2.

 

Jealousy is jealousy no matter how one looks at it.

 

Actually in most cases someone is gonna lie or protect the other and there have been some priddy stable people who have been provoked to violence....more lying could provoke violence.

 

The only case I would even remotely say there should be any communication would be notification of an STD or pregnancy and both can be done through the authorities.

 

IMO what more truth is needed...he/she cheated, he/she has a spouse.

Edited February 26, 2010 by pureinheart

[White Flower]

Thanks WF....I came back extremely angry (this took place in a small town in Louisiana)...later on in life a councellor told me I had survivors guilt, I was 19 yrs old at the time.

 

It's a good thing my dad sent me an airline ticket asap as I was out to hurt someone...my friend that I went to LA with, that I recently caught up with after all of these years told me that I went looking for his murderer(s)....I don't remember but we tore up his house bad and my friend took the rap and when going to bail her out of jail I saw his murder....it took two cops and my other guy friend to hold me back from ripping this guys head off.

 

I went to visit the town 20 yrs later and nothing had changed....even the displays at the EZ Mart that I worked at for 1 day were still the same...a little eeri if you ask me....

 

I am just now delving into the deeper areas of effect concerning the survivors guilt...I would assume that I beat myself up a lot....it's interesting how these things set the stage for self destruction....

It does sound eery, I agree, and the rest of it sounds unthinkable. So much violence in one lifetime. I hope you're dealing ok with the survivor's guilt, I've heard of that. It happens a lot when soldiers come back from war unhurt while their comrades were killed or maimed. So far, though, it sounds like you turned out all right.

[RedDevil66]

I would think it would be a great strategy on the ow's part to confront the wife/gf and tell the whole truth, since, I would think, most wives/gf's would leave the chump if they knew the truth and the ow could get "her man"?!

[pureinheart]

It does sound eery, I agree, and the rest of it sounds unthinkable. So much violence in one lifetime. I hope you're dealing ok with the survivor's guilt, I've heard of that. It happens a lot when soldiers come back from war unhurt while their comrades were killed or maimed. So far, though, it sounds like you turned out all right.

 

LOL thanks again WF...ya this is a major connection, never have even went there, although will....

[Spark1111]

 

I finally came to the conclusion that I won't ever know the truth and the reason is the 2 of them have lied to themselves so much, they don't know the truth. They believe their own lies. You can't provide the truth if you can't even be truthful with yourself.

 

.

 

This is true in my case certainly. Two years later I believe I have all heard all the truth that he remembers...truly.

 

There is a lot more there, but HE does not want to remember it, or to closely examine it.

 

He repeats many of the same statements over and over again; it is as if, he remembers the fantasy of the feelings, or the feelings and statements that fueled the fantasy....and that is the only truth he has now.