Would you stay in a sexless marriage?

[WalkInThePark]

Perhaps Sex is the symptom for a greater problem, it's not a healthy situation.

 

You can try to do some more creative things and surprise her, to spark the attraction you used to have. Maybe the stress from kids\family is killing her mentally and she's just exhausted. You can take her to a nice vacation without the kids so she's relax and careless..

 

Why does HE always has to do something? Why does he have to fix her? She's not disabled as she can apparently work. So why can't she think for herself: "Hey, I wish me and my man were closer."

I agree that the lack of sex is probably symptomatic. I think that if a couple feels close emotionally, there will automatically be more sex.

[giotto]

Why does HE always has to do something? Why does he have to fix her? She's not disabled as she can apparently work. So why can't she think for herself: "Hey, I wish me and my man were closer."

I agree that the lack of sex is probably symptomatic. I think that if a couple feels close emotionally, there will automatically be more sex.

 

lol... we haven't been emotionally closed for years... we were having mechanical sex, although very good... I suppose, if it were up to her, we would have sex every three/six months... she shut down many years ago and I haven't been able to resurrect our relationship... everything has turned sour now. I'm contemplating a six months break, moving out... I'm getting really depressed and I don't want that...

[WalkInThePark]

because of the children, I never even thought of separating. I hanged in there. I'm still hanging in there, but since the children are now older, I started questioning the whole relationship...

 

I think she knows very well that you are a good responsible guy. She knows that it would break your heart to divorce. And she takes advantage of that (maybe not consciously). She just does not think you will ever leave. So no impetus for her to get her act together.

 

I once came across a website for people who were left after a very long relationship. They felt of course all very wronged because there spouse had left them all of a sudden after 20, 25, 30, etc... years. And everyone was writing the same thing: it came out of the blue, he/she was responsible, yes the marriage had had ups and downs but all in all they were happy.

I presume that your wife would also sound like that if you would decide to divorce her. She would probably say something like "I knew we disagreed on certain things, but I did not know it was that bad. Well, people don't know if it is that bad because they never really listened to their spouse.

 

Somewhere in this topic it was said: "Yes but what if after you leave she changes like you wanted her to change and then some other guy takes advantage of it." Of course that would be somehow frustrating but if she can only change after you left then apparently she did not think you were worth it. Which in my book shows that she never appreciated you.

[giotto]

I think she knows very well that you are a good responsible guy. She knows that it would break your heart to divorce. And she takes advantage of that (maybe not consciously). She just does not think you will ever leave. So no impetus for her to get her act together.

 

I once came across a website for people who were left after a very long relationship. They felt of course all very wronged because there spouse had left them all of a sudden after 20, 25, 30, etc... years. And everyone was writing the same thing: it came out of the blue, he/she was responsible, yes the marriage had had ups and downs but all in all they were happy.

I presume that your wife would also sound like that if you would decide to divorce her. She would probably say something like "I knew we disagreed on certain things, but I did not know it was that bad. Well, people don't know if it is that bad because they never really listened to their spouse.

 

Somewhere in this topic it was said: "Yes but what if after you leave she changes like you wanted her to change and then some other guy takes advantage of it." Of course that would be somehow frustrating but if she can only change after you left then apparently she did not think you were worth it. Which in my book shows that she never appreciated you.

 

WITP, my wife knows perfectly well what's wrong. She admitted to it last Sunday. She said she knows it's not fair to me, that I've been suffering long enough, but she is obviously torn between something she finds almost unbearable (facing her childhood's ghosts) and the thought/fear of losing me. It will take a great effort from her part to go to therapy. She said she would something about it two weeks ago and still nothing... knowing her, I'm not holding my breath. I kind of believe she'd prefer to lose me than to go to therapy. She's learned to manage her fears, but I can't take it anymore.

 

Myself, I'm torn between waiting, frustration, the kids, fear of depression setting in... I'm also very busy with work and I can hardly concentrate...

[WalkInThePark]

WITP, my wife knows perfectly well what's wrong....

 

Yes she knows what is wrong. But she also knows that you lack the courage to divorce. So she still does not see it as a major problem. She thinks that you are now grumbling a bit and that it will pass. She does feel safe, she is convinced that you won't leave. Which is normal because she sees what we are seeing here on LS: you can't leave her. You are too responsible. Guys in general have more trouble than women to leave a marriage; I see that all the time. Women fall in love with a guy and are prepared to blow up their whole life. Guys feel responsible for their family and are afraid that they won't be as present in the lives of their children (and some women do everything possible to prevent the guy from seeing the children).

 

She admitted to it last Sunday. She said she knows it's not fair to me, that I've been suffering long enough

 

Come on, giotto, you know this is BS. This is someone who hurts you saying "Oh, I'm so sorry I hurt you but I can't help it". As someone said it very bluntly here: use some damn lube. You have 4 kids and you have had sex from time to time: that vagina is not closed... Now I am not saying that you have to force her to have sex, absolutely not. But being a woman myself, I know I can have sex when I am initially not in the mood and gradually become in the mood while having sex. Damn it, your wife makes it sound like it is the biggest sacrifice and torture there is. That's just not true. In a relationship I sometimes have sex because I really want it and initiate it. And sometimes I am more passive and it is my partner who is the more active one. But it is always enjoyable.

I am convinced that there is absolutely no reason why your wife could not have sex with you once a week. She knows that it will make you happy and I can't believe that it will make her unhappy. So why not do it.

 

But this: "Oh honey, I know it hurts so much but I still keep doing it because I can't help it." is unacceptable.

 

She said she would something about it two weeks ago and still nothing... knowing her, I'm not holding my breath. I kind of believe she'd prefer to lose me than to go to therapy. ...

 

Well her actions show what her priorities are... Why do you refuse to accept the message?

 

Myself, I'm torn between waiting, frustration, the kids, fear of depression setting in... I'm also very busy with work and I can hardly concentrate...

 

You need to do something instead of just waiting until the Mrs will take action. Make an appointment with a lawyer and tell her. That does not mean you will divorce her but it will give you the necessary info you need to do it plus it will show a clear signal to her that you are taking action. OK, that might cause even more "fear" in her but then she is clearly not capable to act like an adult, put aside whatever "fear" she has and save her marriage.

 

Your wife sounds a bit like the wife of my xMM. I think such women should never have married as they obviously have too many problems to function properly in a relationship. I can't stand them. I myself come from a dysfunctional family and instead of looking for a saviour I could get married to I felt that I first needed to be stronger as a person. The ultimate result is that I am not yet married and too old for kids but I prefer to be like that rather than to be an unhappy, depressed spouse and mother like my own mother was. The only thing that frustrates the hell out of me is that now in my forties when I feel really good about myself and ready to deeply love and cherish someone, it is as if I missed the train. Good guys are married to depressed, overweight women and the available ones of my age want women at least 10 years younger. And I don't want a guy in his late 50'ies let alone his 60'ies.

Edited March 6, 2010 by WalkInThePark

[giotto]

thanks for that, WITP... I know I need a kick in the butt, but leaving the children terrifies me. And you are right. I've allowed this behaviour to go on too long and now she doesn't believe I will ever take any action. But leaving would be such a huge upheaval that sometimes I think maybe I should be happy with what I have and stop being selfish...

Edited March 6, 2010 by giotto

[WalkInThePark]

thanks for that, WITP... I know I need a kick in the butt, but leaving the children terrifies me. And you are right. I've allowed this behaviour to go on too long and now she doesn't believe I will ever take any action. But leaving would be such a huge upheaval that sometimes I think maybe I should be happy with what I have and stop being selfish...

 

I don't have children but I think I understand how difficult this is. I said the following to my xMM. You have two identities: one as a individual who needs things and one as part of the family structure. You and your wife function well in your respective roles in the family structure. But you suppress your identity apart from that. And if you don't exist strong enough as an individual and those needs as an individual are not met, you feel bad.

Causing turbulence in the lives of your children is tough. I don't know if I could do it. But not having your needs met as a person is also tough.

 

I think that a marriage can only be good if both people can develop to become the best individual they can be. Your wife actually uses her marriage and family to not do that.

 

What about MC (although I always thing that IC is better)?

[giotto]

What about MC (although I always thing that IC is better)?

 

we've been there already... she wouldn't open up and after a few sessions I foolishly said I would never leave the children, so I reinforced her position... after a while we decided we weren't getting anywhere (I wonder why... she didn't have to do anything anymore) and we stopped going...

 

I'm thinking about IC myself... I've been in the past. The problem with this is that the wife will see it as me accepting defeat and admitting there is something wrong with myself after all... at the moment, she is against the wall...

[troggleputty]

Giotto,

 

your wife is behaving as if she may be having an affair, or at least pining away for a lover from a past affair.

 

If she is not directing her emotional energies towards you, it must be because she is directing them towards someone else, either in reality or perhaps as part of her fantasy life.

 

She is more than capable of having sex with you when she deems it advantageous to do so.

 

Therefore this is not the result of a psychological problem, phobia, past abuse, or whatever other rationalization she wishes you to believe.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Giotto,

If she is not directing her emotional energies towards you, it must be because she is directing them towards someone else, either in reality or perhaps as part of her fantasy life.

 

 

 

Dear Giotto;

 

Of course I don't know you or your wife, but it sounds like you have enough to worry about and deal with. Let me assure you that it is certainly possible AND probable that your wife is NOT directing her energies towards anyone else because she is not directing them towards you. She could well be, and sounds like she is, emotionally and sexually shut down. It could very well be from some past experiences.

 

I hope that she will do what she needs to do in order to put whatever it is to rest and be able to participate in a mutually fulfilling relationship with you - or that you are able to move in a different direction in order to have that in your own life, even if not with her.

[troggleputty]

Dear Giotto;

 

Of course I don't know you or your wife, but it sounds like you have enough to worry about and deal with.

 

None of us "know" his wife in that sense, so all we can do is look at the behavior as described and apply some basic pattern-recognition skills.

 

Compare giotto's wife's behavior for example to samantha905 (I think that's her screen name). Samantha is a woman who recently came out of an affair, is in counseling, but has never told her unsuspecting husband about the affair. She has described an unhappiness and emotional distance in their marriage, a lack of love, which is ongoing, specifically including not having sex with her spouse. IOW while the situations are obviously not identical, samantha could just as well be giotto's wife.

 

Many many descriptions of unfaithful wives on LS have similar characteristics to giotto's wife, and giotto has similar characteristics to the unknowing betrayed husbands.

 

Let me assure you that it is certainly possible AND probable that your wife is NOT directing her energies towards anyone else because she is not directing them towards you.

 

Anything is possible. However the most likely explanation for the behavior of giotto's wife towards giotto is that she is either currently in an affair (emotional or physical); or like samantha905 had an affair at some point in the past which she is unable to get over.

 

 

She could well be, and sounds like she is, emotionally and sexually shut down. It could very well be from some past experiences.

 

No. This statement is demonstrably false based on what giotto has described. His wife was more than able to voluntarily have sexual relations with him when she thought he was going to divorce her, over a span of nine months. Only when he indicated that he would never leave or words to that effect did she shut down the sex again. Giotto's wife is in complete control of the sexual relationship with giotto, including when it does or does not occur. This is not consistent with being emotionally or sexually "shut down." It IS consistent with a person who is fully functional both emotionally and sexually but does not want to share those particular aspects of her personality with the man who happens to be her husband.

 

 

I hope that she will do what she needs to do in order to put whatever it is to rest and be able to participate in a mutually fulfilling relationship with you - or that you are able to move in a different direction in order to have that in your own life, even if not with her.

 

Again you should read through some of samantha905's posts which are quite informative as to the mind-set of a cheating wife.

[xxoo]

No. This statement is demonstrably false based on what giotto has described. His wife was more than able to voluntarily have sexual relations with him when she thought he was going to divorce her, over a span of nine months. Only when he indicated that he would never leave or words to that effect did she shut down the sex again. Giotto's wife is in complete control of the sexual relationship with giotto, including when it does or does not occur. This is not consistent with being emotionally or sexually "shut down." It IS consistent with a person who is fully functional both emotionally and sexually but does not want to share those particular aspects of her personality with the man who happens to be her husband. .

 

Or a woman who has sex that she doesn't really want (pushing through emotional or physical discomfort) out of fear of losing her husband, and finally comes to a point when she just can't do that anymore.

[troggleputty]

Or a woman who has sex that she doesn't really want (pushing through emotional or physical discomfort) out of fear of losing her husband, and finally comes to a point when she just can't do that anymore.

 

 

But again, what you are stating/implying is factually a false proposition.

 

It is not that a woman in such a position "can't" do that anymore; it is that she chooses not to. Just as she chose to do it when it suited her purposes.

 

When she had sex with giotto, of course she "really wanted to" have sex with him. If she didn't "really want to," she wouldn't have. She has shown perfectly well that she WILL NOT have sex, ever, with giotto unless she WANTS to.

 

The point you seem to be missing is your assumption that your personal motive for having sex with someone is the only possible motive. You assume that because you would only have sex with someone you love, the same applies to giotto's wife. Obviously giotto's wife is willing to have sex for purposes other than love, i.e. to avoid a divorce occurring. She "really wanted to" avoid giotto divorcing her; therefore, she had sex with him.

 

I mean how much simpler can it be? Giotto's wife is a crass, very manipulative woman who uses sex, and the denial of sex, to control his behavior. And, she probably always has been this way, for their entire relationship.

 

But so what? Many women relate to sex in precisely the same way--as a commodity.

[xxoo]

But again, what you are stating/implying is factually a false proposition.

 

It is not that a woman in such a position "can't" do that anymore; it is that she chooses not to. Just as she chose to do it when it suited her purposes.

 

When she had sex with giotto, of course she "really wanted to" have sex with him. If she didn't "really want to," she wouldn't have. She has shown perfectly well that she WILL NOT have sex, ever, with giotto unless she WANTS to.

 

The point you seem to be missing is your assumption that your personal motive for having sex with someone is the only possible motive. You assume that because you would only have sex with someone you love, the same applies to giotto's wife. Obviously giotto's wife is willing to have sex for purposes other than love, i.e. to avoid a divorce occurring. She "really wanted to" avoid giotto divorcing her; therefore, she had sex with him.

 

I mean how much simpler can it be? Giotto's wife is a crass, very manipulative woman who uses sex, and the denial of sex, to control his behavior. And, she probably always has been this way, for their entire relationship.

 

But so what? Many women relate to sex in precisely the same way--as a commodity.

 

All I can say is that, as a woman who's experience low libido at times, I see very different possibilities. You may be right, but it isn't the only possibility. Giotto would know best, of course.

[troggleputty]

All I can say is that, as a woman who's experience low libido at times, I see very different possibilities. You may be right, but it isn't the only possibility. Giotto would know best, of course.

 

 

With all respect to yourself, to say someone has "low libido" implies that you do not have a psychological desire for sex. It does not mean 1) that you are unable to actually perform the act nor 2) that you are unable to have a non-sexually-based motivation (i.e. a non-libidinous reason) to have sex.

 

I never stated that giotto's wife had a sexually-based motivation (i.e. libidionous) to have sex with giotto. On the contrary I stated the opposite: that giotto's wife's use of sex and withholding of sex was decidedly non-libidinous.

[xxoo]

With all respect to yourself, to say someone has "low libido" implies that you do not have a psychological desire for sex. It does not mean 1) that you are unable to actually perform the act nor 2) that you are unable to have a non-sexually-based motivation (i.e. a non-libidinous reason) to have sex.

 

I never stated that giotto's wife had a sexually-based motivation (i.e. libidionous) to have sex with giotto. On the contrary I stated the opposite: that giotto's wife's use of sex and withholding of sex was decidedly non-libidinous.

 

Ah, ok, now I understand what you are saying.

 

Still, I can't really understand your pov.

 

My partner has always been clear to me that he does NOT want me to have sex if I am not interested. He doesn't want sex with an uninterested partner. So that is my "normal". We work around it together, and I take getting my libido back and healthy seriously.

 

Also, I believe it can create bigger issues in the sexual relationship when a woman repeatedly has penetrative sex she doesn't enjoy for her partner's benefit.

 

Where you see "using sex", I see "sucking it up for the good of the relationship". Where you see "withholding sex", I see "worn down and hit a breaking point". Obviously, Giotto has his breaking points, too. I'm very sympathetic to Giotto's position, but maybe can understand his wife's a bit, too.

[carhill]

We work around it <low libido> together, and I take getting my libido back and healthy seriously.

 

If I've read the thread right, this a key element missing in the OP's dynamic. IMO, aligning with what you've proffered, marriage should be a team effort with mutual support and understanding and empathy. Mine lacked it, so I got out. Everyone's decision is uniquely theirs. I fervently pray that the OP isn't here five years from now, similar to JamesM, and dealing with the same old thing day after day, year after year.

[giotto]

I fervently pray that the OP isn't here five years from now, similar to JamesM, and dealing with the same old thing day after day, year after year.

 

I won't be here!

 

She is not having an affair... she is unable to resolve her psychological issues at the moment, and she's been sweeping everything under the carpet... literally, all her life. She is badly affected by them. I had no idea how bad it was. She has to solve her issues on her own. I know this. It's up to me to decide if I'm prepared to wait or not. Everything is very tense, because we are stuck in a pattern...

[xxoo]

If I've read the thread right, this a key element missing in the OP's dynamic. IMO, aligning with what you've proffered, marriage should be a team effort with mutual support and understanding and empathy.

 

100% agree.

I think this is necessary for any long, successful, happy marriage. There will always be issue that need to be worked out with a team effort. If it isn't sex, it will be something else.

[troggleputty]

Ah, ok, now I understand what you are saying.

 

OK.

 

Still, I can't really understand your pov.

 

It's not really a point of view; it's a series of observations about human behavior. It may be wrong or not.

 

My personal point of view if you want to call it that, is that each partner has the obligation to the other, to both 1) make themselves desirable to the other so as to stimulate desire in the other; 2) create desire in themselves for the partner, i.e. not just say "I'm tired" etc. all the time and place the obligation on the other partner to make me feel desire.

 

IOW both partners have an affirmative obligation to do whatever they can to break a negative cycle and make a positively reinforcing cycle. What this means is it can't be tit for tat. It means that sometimes one or the other of the partners must carry more than 50% of the burden, and in fact, this is especially important when the other partner is unable/unwilling or has some kind of a problem. But, the objective is to maintain and increase intimacy.

 

You see, giotto's wife has no apparent problem with a zero sex life (at least with giotto). This is crucial and I think you may be missing the part this plays in giotto's story. This is not a case where the wife lacks desire and is distressed by the lack of desire;rather she is complacent and happy with it. Her "distress" if you want to call it that is caused by giotto's dissatisfaction with her satisfaction with her lack of desire.

 

There are times when I don't feel sexual because of stress or fatigue or whatever. But I have never ever believed that those occasions represent a satisfactory state for the marriage. Quite the contrary. And I certainly don't make my spouse feel guilty about it.

 

In terms of the whole infidelity aspect, women who are perfectly "functional" in a sexual sense, but behave the way giotto's wife has behaved towards him--denying both physically and emotionally, satisfied with that state of affairs, and attempting to impose guilt on the denied partner--quite frequently behave that way precisely because their affections are dedicated to someone outside the marriage.

 

Let's put it another way: Nothing giotto has told us about his wife, himself, or his marital situation is in any way inconsistent with the theory that his wife has been having an affair, or is having an affair, and simply has been successful in concealing it from him. In the absence of any other plausible theory to explain her behavior--and there really isn't any that has been presented--it means she's cheating now, or has cheated in the past, or wants to cheat, or some combination of the above. Not necessarily physically; perhaps just emotionally. But probably physically after all this time.

 

There are plenty of people whose spouses cheat on them for decades without the betrayed spouse finding out until, say after the kids are out of the house and the wife ups and leaves the marriage to finally be with her lover, full time. This kind of thing happens frequently. And again--nothing giotto has described is inconsistent with such a scenario.

 

 

My partner has always been clear to me that he does NOT want me to have sex if I am not interested. He doesn't want sex with an uninterested partner. So that is my "normal". We work around it together, and I take getting my libido back and healthy seriously.

 

Right. Of course he wants you to be "into" it. But the normal healthy response is not for the spouse to say: "Fine. Then we'll never have sex" (i.e. "Fine, then I have no obligation to you to ever get interested in sex with you.") The normal response is for both spouses to actively work to generate that interest, or at least sufficient interest to get through the "dry spells" in some more or less minimally adequate fashion.

 

Again giotto's wife isn't interested in doing that. At all. As far as she's concerned, the "dry spell" is the entire marriage. And she's fine with that.

 

Also, I believe it can create bigger issues in the sexual relationship when a woman repeatedly has penetrative sex she doesn't enjoy for her partner's benefit.

 

OK but the solution is for her to learn to enjoy it. That's her obligation as a spouse. By what principle do you conclude that it is the spouse who wants sex to have the primary obligation to create desire in the denying spouse? That's actually absurd when you think about it; yet it seems to be what a lot of people believe. (Those people primarily being women who lack desire for their husbands.)

 

Think of it this way: If you have a weight problem and your spouse is physically fit, is it your fit spouse's obligation to make you go on a diet or exercise program, and then make you adhere to it?

 

Of course not. Similarly if I lack sexual desire for my spouse and there is nothing obviously unattractive/repulsive about my spouse (which is not the issue in giotto's marriage at all) then it is MY primary responsbility to learn how to allow myself to generate desire for my spouse. It is no more my spouse's responsibility than it is for my spouse to go on his own diet so that I can try to lose weight. And it won't work anyway. Diets can't be done by other people for the person who needs it; nor can exercise programs; nor can developing a healthy sexual desire for one's spouse.

 

 

Where you see "using sex", I see "sucking it up for the good of the relationship".

 

But giotto's spouse has refused to suck it up for the good of the relationship. The only time she had sex with him (at least recently) was to manipulate him into not divorcing her. As soon as that threat disappeared, she stopped having sex at all. So she was unwilling to even suck it up for the good of the relationship. Which is precisely the point.

 

 

 

Where you see "withholding sex", I see "worn down and hit a breaking point".

 

Worn down from what exactly? She was NOT having sex with him.

 

 

Obviously, Giotto has his breaking points, too. I'm very sympathetic to Giotto's position, but maybe can understand his wife's a bit, too.

 

His wife's position is that she has no desire to have sex with her husband; is perfectly satisfied if she never ever has sex with him again; and further makes him feel guilty as her spouse for himself wanting to have sex with her.

 

That "position" is the same sort of position that cheating spouses take, quite frequently, anyway. Therefore I can't endorse it.

[xxoo]

Worn down from what exactly? She was NOT having sex with him.

 

She was for a while, motivated by not wanting him to leave. I'm guessing she just couldn't handle it any more.

 

I think Giotto has a good understanding of what is going on. I just hate to see the woman villianized on a message board. I think she's struggling, not manipulative. Still, Giotto has to make his own choices given the realities. He needn't be a martyr to her issues.

[BettyBoop]

leaving the children terrifies me.

 

Giotto, as a child who's dad left I have already told you this before...it is a living hell to live in a family where you know one parent is unhappy (in my case there were two. )... I said it before and I'll say it again - my parents should have divorced when I was 10, not 20.

 

IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO "HEAL" YOUR WIFE. SHE HAS TO DO IT HERSELF. SHE HAS TO WANT TO, HERSELF. (My mother had issues my dad could never fix. He sort of made it worse because he couldn't understand but he couldn't fix her - that was up to her, not him.)

 

You will cause some resentment and hurt if you leave and your kids will be upset but they will get over it! I've forgiven my dad because he is happier now than before (and my mom is happier without him too). What will you do once the kids move out and are 18? Don't you think they will be just as upset you leave their mother when they are that age?

 

Regarding your quote "She said she would something about it two weeks ago and still nothing..." I will repeat that actions speak louder than words... If she has not contacted the therapist in a month from the talk you have every right to question her motivation as to why she couldn't spend 2 minutes of her life calling the therapist and her doctor! Then I think you should take action and ask for a separation at least. Let your kids adjust to it and then follow through with a divorce if that is what you want.

 

Always remember to remind them that just because mommy doesn't make daddy happy doesn't mean his children aren't loved and adored and make him very happy...they're gonna need to hear that a lot.

[BettyBoop]

I just hate to see the woman villianized on a message board. I think she's struggling, not manipulative.

 

I don't think she is a bad person either...but without actions, her words are empty and worthless.

[ADF]

No, I would not. We human beings are risen apes, not fallen angels. Not haveing a sex life is miserable. If your partner had no interest in sex, they either need to fix that or allow you to find sex elsewhere. Otherwise, end it.

[JamesM]

I fervently pray that the OP isn't here five years from now, similar to JamesM, and dealing with the same old thing day after day, year after year.

 

I hope he is not either.

 

From what I have read, there are many similarities between us, but there are some significant differences.

 

My wife does show quite alot of physical affection towards me...plenty of hugs and kisses, plenty of caresses and touches. I may be wrong, but even the tactile expression of love is missing with Giotto and his wife.

 

When we do have sex, my wife chooses to do so out of love and not out of giving in to demands. And lately it has been more than before. Since there have been no ultimatums by me, I can only believe that it is her choice. As I have found and Giotto has found, ultimatums show great improvement in the short run but little improvement for the long run. Just as in dieting, little changes which are motivated by desire are much better motivators than a radical change "inspired" by fear.

 

I can say that I have chosen to stay for more than the kids. I stay because I do love her deeply and she is my best friend. And our sex life has been better (as far as quantity and some improvement in quality). I stay because being with her far outweighs life without her.

 

Giotto does not have that connection with his wife. He does not feel that his wife wants to change for him. I believe that most of my wife's troubles stem not from psychological pain but from physical pain caused by her fibromyalgia. My wife does not have to face any past horrors...she has done that. She simply has times where the pain erases any desire to feel sexual pleasure. She is on pain meds every day and every hour for pain. Some day are great, others are not. Most are in between. Attitude is what makes the difference.

 

The only way that I see satisfactory improvement for Giotto is if his wife begins to change out of a true desire for him and their marriage...and not out of the fear of losing her marriage and husband.

 

Time will tell.