Would you stay in a sexless marriage?

[SarahRose]

How did it make you feel to hear that? I guess he told you as a concession to your concerns...what did you say?

 

I wasn't sure what to say as I was surprised but said, well that's good. It seems like you were really enjoying the sex this morning as did I.

[quankanne]

If she really loved me, she would have sex with me and she wouldn’t be “scared” of me. I’m sure she cares deeply about me, but not enough to see what she is doing to me. Or she knows very well, but she is so busy thinking about her issues that she has lost sight of mines.

 

I sense a little bit of a "poor, pitiful me" moment going on right now. While it's good to let those pouty feelings out (and I've had my share of those moments), you've got to think past that stage and look at it from every angle. Not just from one of hurt and confusion.

 

you've got to be patient as she works through those issues, and my though is that once she gets past the feeling of fear, it'll work itself out more quickly. You cannot force something like this unless you want your relationship full of festering recriminations – YOU should have been more patient, SHE should have been more trusting, etc. The only thing I can advise is that it's going to happen when it happens. Maybe not as quick (or often) as you'd like, but you're going to appreciate the difference between her feeling she's "got" to do it with you so that your needs are met, and her coming freely to you, wanting to love you in the fullest sense.

 

pretty much, it's about letting go of those expectations and starting afresh. It's not easy, and it's definitely not fun, but it'll save your sanity

[Jeff1962]

Gioto. Dude. Work on thyself. You are half of this relationship. Ask your wife to follow in suit.

 

No, I could not live out to the end of my days in a sexless marriage.

 

Sex is not really the issue here though. It goes deeper than this. There could be regret, hurt feelings, stubborness, hormonal issues. Sex is just not sex. Sex is a build up of emotions, of actions, of interaction throughout the day or week or whatever. We are not robots. I think that you are expecting your wife to perform. This is a NO GO JOE.

 

I have to ask you this gioto. Why is your wife afraid of you? Your wife should feel cherished by you and totally safe when with you. You should both feel that there is no judgement between the two of you.

 

As you may know, I have PTSD but my wife is not afraid of me in any way. My wife is my girl and I honor her as a person. Thankfully, my wife and I are working thru our issues but gioto dude, where there is fear there cannot be love, nor intimacy, nor openess.

 

I'm going to be crude here. I think your wife feels that you just want to f**k and not make love. This is how you come across.

 

I really appreciate your responses toward me and Ihope you do not take offense in my response to you.

 

Good luck mate.

[troggleputty]

I cannot believe people haven't jumped on you for this before now. You are telling men to rape their wives if they are in a sexless marriage! Absolutely disgusting.

 

LOL. No I didn't advise anyone to "rape their wives." Re-read my post.

 

 

Sex should not be viewed as a commodity that men just get to take from women; it should be viewed as an experience that 2 people share.

 

You've got it precisely backwards. It's the spouse who denies sex who treats their sexuality as a "commodity." That's why in all of these stories the withholding spouse WILL have sex but only for the right "quid pro quo." And I never suggested a man should "take" anything from a woman. Again--re-read what I actually posted.

 

I made some suggestions as to things giotto should say to his wife to persuade her to have sex with him. That's not "rape." It's "persuasion." If giotto's wife thinks it's fair game to use emotional blackmail to dissuade him from even asking her for sex, why should he not be able to use verbal persuasion to change her mind?

 

 

If you don't like that you're not getting any sex, talk to your significant other and see what's wrong.

 

LOL. What's wrong is that he's not getting any sex. There's no need for further conversation about that particular issue. She knows she's withholding sex from giotto and she's emotionally blackmailing him to feel guilty for even wanting to have sex with her. That's ridiculous. We already know that giotto's wife is willing to have sex with him if she feels the stakes are sufficiently high. She had sex with him when she thought he was serious about leaving her. Giotto needs to try some things that will persuade her to have sex with him short of actually leaving the marital home, if at all possible.

 

 

If it's something you two can work on, great, work on it. If not then separate.

 

Giotto already separated from his wife and it was only then that she took him seriously enough to have sex with him. She is playing hardball and dirty pool with him, emotionally blackmailing him, and "hardball" is the only thing she apparently understands.

 

Do Not Force Your Wife To Have Sex With You.

 

Why not? You don't think some women like a little bit of forcefulness from their man? That kind of thing excites plenty of women; it's part of foreplay for a lot of couples.

 

 

If anyone ever did that to me I would fight every step of the way and leave them as soon as I was able and press rape charges.

 

Hysterical much? Do really envision giotto of all people as being prone to committing rape? There's a big range between being a weak spineless jellyfish and a rapist. Unfortunately giotto falls towards the jellyfish side of that spectrum. He needs to move a couple of notches towards the macho side.

 

 

Also the idea that women choose to not have sex with their husbands and if they are physically able to have sex then they are obligated to do so is such a bunch of sh**.

 

Wow you really know how to make a reasoned argument, don't you? You don't think having sexual relations with a person's spouse is a marital obligation? But I'll bet you think it's a husband's obligation to do 50% of the household chores, 50% of the child care, 50% of the income earning, right? Your idea of "marriage" doesn't include sex--but it does include doing the dishes? Do you realize how inane that is?

 

 

 

If a woman is not aroused (which usually means emotionally as well as physically) it hurts to have a penis going in and out of you. So if a woman doesn't "feel" like sex she shouldn't be obligated to lay back and take it.

 

Why not? If I don't feel like taking the garbage out, doing the dishes, changing the baby's diaper, or getting up out of bed in the morning to go earn wages, then I shouldn't have to do that either. By your logic. If I don't feel like doing something that is considered part of a normal marital relationship, then I have no obligation to do it.

 

Giotto and other "nice guys" who post these threads, who are victims of totally unjust sexual denial, aren't some imaginary ogres that you're envisioning in your feminist-agitprop poisoned mind. They are the opposite. They are "nice guys." They would never hurt their spouses, ever. They are afraid of their spouses.

 

Part of the reason they are afraid of their spouses is that they have internalized the kind of ridiculous nonsense spouted by people like yourself--people with absolutely no real life experience who don't know how to have a loving, meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex.

 

People who think spouses have no right or expectation to have sex with the person they're married to. You're wrong, and you're wrong because you don't know how to think. You're not relating your own ideas; you're relating meaningless propaganda that you learned from other people who do not know what it takes to have successful relationships with other people.

 

 

 

I have had sex before where I didn't really want to (tired, had to wake up early) but my guy made sure that I was fully aroused before sex.

 

LOL yes of course you did. That's the point.

 

 

He did not just stick fingers or his cock in there and let the body make lubricant as a safety mechanism. He would not have continued to push to have sex if I couldn't get aroused enough.

 

You obviously can't read. Where did giotto ever say he didn't do everything in his power to get his spouse "ready" for sex? They're not having sex because she will not let him have sex with her. It has nothing to do with whether or not she is properly lubed up.

[troggleputty]

The question is...how good was the sex? And by that I mean, how well did she enjoy it?

 

Umm...who really cares whether she "enjoys it"? You can't "enjoy it" if you don't ever have it in the first place.

 

 

Was it a reaction to the possibility of losing you? Or did she suddenly develop a new interest in sex? Was she doing it to please you or as an expression of love?

 

Again...who cares? Giotto's wife attitude towards sex is totally dysfunctional. Her personal feelings to performing the sex act are not a sound measurement of anything. That's what a lot of folks don't seem to understand. She needs to learn how to have sex as an enjoyable marital experience rather than using denial of sex as a tool of marital power. The only way she can do that is for giotto to teach her. And the first lesson she needs to learn is that he, not she, determines when, where, and under what other circumstances sex will happen, or not happen.

 

She's been setting all the rules, but the problem is, her rules are "no sex." So she's forfeited her right to have any say at all in the matter, because she's psychologically disturbed and completely unreasonable. It is not a case of two mature loving adults being able to reach a reasonable compromise. It is a case of an immature, selfish, psychologically disturbed woman attempting to misuse her sexuality via denial to exert power and control over her spouse. You can't let the lunatic run the asylum.

 

 

 

 

Since you gave an ultimatum, did you feel that you "reenergized" her sexuality? Or do you feel that you struck a fear inside of her?

 

Again this doesn't matter. The issue is one of behavior modification. Sex is a behavior. Giotto's wife's aversion to sex is like any other neuroses or phobia.

 

 

 

[quoteI must be missing something, but when you force someone to have sex, then isn't that rape?

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/wiferape.shtml

 

It depends on what level of "force" is being used. I'm perfectly well allowed to have a couple of drinks with my spouse; then, when she's loosened up, physically grab my spouse, kiss her hard, stick my tongue in her mouth, hug her passionately, and squeeze her sweet sweet ass with both hands while pressing my erection into her groin, all the while pushing her into the bedroom, if I think that will be "stimulating" to her.

 

That's "force." But it's not "rape." I'm allowed to use that kind of "force" on my spouse because she's my spouse.

 

If I'm in bed with her, I'm perfectly well permitted to roll over to her side, and start kissing and caressing her. I'm allowed to pin her arms over her head while I stimulate her with my tongue. I'm allowed to flip her over and penetrate from behind. Those are all "force" yet somehow, because I'm married to her, and we have a "normal" relationship, none of those things are considered to be a "crime."

 

By your distillation of the idiotic "feminist" viewpoint, I'm not even allowed to kiss my wife, or hug her, without first getting her consent. Because that's "force."

 

 

 

 

 

Catch 22. If he is a clod and that is why she no longer likes sex, then is she going to start having sex with him so he can practice? Highly doubtful. So how should he practice?

 

Well that's not the issue because she hasn't said that's the issue. She hasn't told him she doesn't like sex because he's not doing it right. She's withholding sex from him because she's on a sick power trip.

 

 

 

Sorry. Maybe it is because I am a nice guy, but telling your wife "We are going to have sex no matter what you say" does not sound like the answer to anyone's problems.

 

LOL. Again please re-read my post to see what I actually wrote. Obviously if his wife refuses to have sex with giotto under any circumstances, then trying to do anything is pointless, and they should divorce. However that doesn't happen to be the case. She will have sex with him under the appropriate circumstances. But why should he have to threaten divorce/separation just to have sex? That's her doing, not giotto's.

 

By the way why don't you think it's worth simply telling the wife that sex will happen, no ifs and or buts. All she can do is say "No." But right now she's coerced giotto to feeling so guilty he can't even ask her. Screw that. Don't ask her, tell her. The language of coercion is the only thing she understands. Don't you get that? That's speaking to her in her language, not giotto's "nice guy" language.

 

 

And if a woman experienced rape or abuse in her past, then I doubt that this will be anything but a reminder of that abuse.

 

I doubt that, but if that's the problem, maybe she's so twisted and sick that she associates force and coercion with sex, but not "nice guy" behaviors. Maybe she only gets turned on when she's "forced" to have sex on some level. That's not giotto's fault but if those are the cards he's dealt then those are the cards he has to play.

 

(By the way if she does blame her lack of sexuality on past rape or abuse then it's her obligation to get therapy for that, and she hasn't done that. So in reality that's just another excuse even if it's true.)

 

Giotto, your wife needs help. Perhaps if you seek a counselor for yourself, then he or she may give you answers on how to proceed.

 

A competent therapist will tell giotto and his wife that they need to start having sex more often even if she "doesn't feel like it." You don't get good at any type of physical activity without lots of practice.

[SarahRose]

A competent therapist will tell giotto and his wife that they need to start having sex more often even if she "doesn't feel like it." You don't get good at any type of physical activity without lots of practice.

 

Obviously you are male.

 

I find it hard to take you seriously when you lambasted me for my marriage counselor telling us to have sex 2 times a week for four weeks and it was terrible to force him to do something he didn't want to do.

 

What's with your double standard?

[troggleputty]

Interesting update.

 

I did get some loving from my husband this morning.

 

Afterwards he told me that he hadn't done anything for the past 2 weeks at all. No hand party, nothing.

 

Since he moved the computer to the bedroom, I figured he hadn't been able to watch porn and whack off like he usually does.

 

Why do you think he told me that?

 

I am guessing that apparently he isn't comfortable with going without any sexual activity that long either.

 

Apparently he wasn't all that upset at my grown kids were here either as he just got up and closed our bedroom door.

 

 

Hey excellent.

 

Now I'm going to make a little suggestion about how you can cure him once and for all of his porn habit. Hopefully anyway.

 

This may take you (and him) a little bit out of your comfort zone but it might be worth a try.

 

Now, you've got to talk to him when he's really relaxed and not feeling defensive, when he's feeling really "safe." This will be tough because your urge will be to throw criticism at him. But you can't do that.

 

Maybe you can have this conversation with him when you are both lying around in bed with nothing to do and no pressure...just talking. Maybe right after you've had sex with him so he's really relaxed.

 

What you need to try to find out is 1) what kind of porn really gets him off; and 2) what he is thinking about/fantasizing about when he is self-pleasuring.

 

A difficult conversation indeed, as you will essentially be asking him to expose his innermost psyche. This may be stuff he has never ever told anyone else in his entire life. He may be embarrassed, ashamed. But if you can find out what is actually going on in his head when he is self pleasuring, then you can really open up a new world for yourselves.

 

It's tough though because he may have some really bizarre fantasies, not stuff he would actually do in real life, just fantasy stuff. I.e. having sex with his sister or other relatives. Or with some teacher he had in the seventh grade.

 

An awful lot of people develop "masturbation habits" or "fantasy habits" at a pretty early age, i.e. adolesence, and continue those into adulthood simply because they're comfortable and familiar.

 

So he may not be able to disclose whatever "it" is right away, it might take a number of conversations.

 

You need to ask him what his sexual fantasies are, and specifically, what he thinks about when he masturbates.

 

Hopefully it's not anything too far out that might be disgusting to you, i.e. goat porn or something like that. But who knows? it might be, you need to be ready for it.

 

Most likely, it's probably stuff that's far more conventional, but stuff that's still embarassing/shameful to him. I.e. sex with his sister, or your sister. Or maybe certain kinds of kinky sexual activities that you're not comfortable with or that he's not comfortable with. He may be fantasizing about doing a certain sexual act with you, that you won't do with him, but that's a hangup for him because he can't get you to ever do it with him. Maybe if you do it with him once or twice that will resolve that compulsion. (Maybe if you both like it enough you will make it a regular part of the repertoire.)

 

So if you can finally get him to tell you all his fantasies, his real fantasies, then what you do is....you be the one to give him his fantasies. So he doesn't have to fly "solo" to experience them.

 

Now that doesn't necessarily mean you let him actually have sex with your sister (if that's his fantasy), I'm not suggesting that. But it might mean that when you and he are having sex, you let him talk about his fantasy/fantasies while he is having sex with you. Or maybe something else that he wants to do with you but has been afraid to broach.

 

But if his biggest fantasy is say you giving him a sloppy bj and swallowing (assuming you don't like to do that, just as an example) and he's very frustrated by not being able to get that (or whatever it is that he wants), you may have to compromise by giving it to him at least from time to time.

 

Make him feel safe in being able to share his fantasies with you, both by talking with him about them, and maybe actually sharing them with him while being intimate.

 

You want to modify his behavior so that his first impulse when he feels horny is not to go masturbate to whatever his fantasy is, but rather, to come to you for "relief."

 

I'm not trying to be kinky or anything, but guys learn about masturbation as a generally shameful and secretive act--something to do in private, furtively, and not get caught. It's a hard habit to break.

 

I would also encourage him to masturbate while you are right there next to him and vocalize what he is thinking/fantasizing about when he is doing it, and then "helping" him.

 

Without a doubt he is sexually frustrated to some extent which is a cause of his excessive masturbation but he doesn't know how to express his needs to you because he maybe ashamed of them. This is hard stuff to talk about even when you are married to the person.

[mem11363]

Tink - good move.

 

 

James,you have hit it on the head. This is a fantastic question. After 8 years with my s/o in a basically sexless relationship [2x per year] I finally had heard how I was pressuring him for sex and that if I really needed sex I should get it elsewhere, so I went and got it elsewhere. Since I told my s/o about it and that I've had it and am leaving this year, he is suddenly "attentive" and "interested". I understand this to be fear from him that I really am going and just am done. Nothing runs long on fear and I sincerely just want something mutual and fun and a little sweet sexually, nothing necessarily extravagant. But all this push and pull for sex has just become too much.

 

 

 

OP I would consider this question well. What is it that you actually desire sexually from your wife?

[troggleputty]

 

Obviously you are male.

 

I find it hard to take you seriously when you lambasted me for my marriage counselor telling us to have sex 2 times a week for four weeks and it was terrible to force him to do something he didn't want to do.

 

What's with your double standard?

 

 

How is it a double standard? I don't think women should be laying down the sexual ground rules in a marriage, simply because it never works out right. Giotto's wife is trying to impose celibacy on him, and that won't work. Just as you trying to impose sexuality on your h won't work either.

 

The man has to take the lead, or else the woman doesn't have any respect for him.

 

Giotto's wife doesn't respect him because he doesn't take the lead in having sex with her.

 

You don't respect your h because he doesn't take the lead in having sex with you.

 

In both cases, giotto's and your marriage, the males are too passive sexually.

 

In giotto's case marital counseling might help if his wife actually listens to the counselor, because the advice to have more sex would coincide with what giotto wants.

 

In your case, unless your h becomes less passive sexually, a counselor forcing him to be more sexual against his will, will be counter productive.

[SarahRose]

 

 

How is it a double standard? I don't think women should be laying down the sexual ground rules in a marriage, simply because it never works out right. Giotto's wife is trying to impose celibacy on him, and that won't work. Just as you trying to impose sexuality on your h won't work either.

 

The man has to take the lead, or else the woman doesn't have any respect for him.

 

Giotto's wife doesn't respect him because he doesn't take the lead in having sex with her.

 

You don't respect your h because he doesn't take the lead in having sex with you.

 

In both cases, giotto's and your marriage, the males are too passive sexually.

 

In giotto's case marital counseling might help if his wife actually listens to the counselor, because the advice to have more sex would coincide with what giotto wants.

 

In your case, unless your h becomes less passive sexually, a counselor forcing him to be more sexual against his will, will be counter productive.

 

 

Umm he is forcing celibacy on me just the same as Giotto's wife is forcing celibacy on him.

 

Why on earth would this sexual fantasy stuff work on a male who you claim is passive and he needs to be the aggressor?

 

Men may love to watch freakish things in porn but many don't want to do it in real life. It is too intimidating.

 

Anyway the porn he watches is very typical non freakish things like MILF and creampie and certainly nothing I haven't already done in bed with him.

 

He may actually feel more comfortable if I laid there like a starfish.

[plrs199]

LOL. No I didn't advise anyone to "rape their wives." Re-read my post.

 

I've read all your posts and I really liked this line "Basically in so many words you may have to literally drag her by the hair into the bedroom and stick it into her. Over and over and over. Until she comes to accept, and expect it, as a "normal" part of your relationship."

Yeah, doesn't sound like rape to me at all.

 

 

You've got it precisely backwards. It's the spouse who denies sex who treats their sexuality as a "commodity." That's why in all of these stories the withholding spouse WILL have sex but only for the right "quid pro quo." And I never suggested a man should "take" anything from a woman. Again--re-read what I actually posted.

 

They are not treating it as a commodity they are treating it as an experience that they do not have the desire for. When they have the desire for it they will want sex. You are seeing it as a commodity because you feel you are entitled to this sex and if you don't get it you feel that the wife is obligated to give it up to you even if she wants no part of it.

 

I made some suggestions as to things giotto should say to his wife to persuade her to have sex with him. That's not "rape." It's "persuasion." If giotto's wife thinks it's fair game to use emotional blackmail to dissuade him from even asking her for sex, why should he not be able to use verbal persuasion to change her mind?

 

Why do you feel that she is using emotional blackmail? Do you not think that it is possible that she just doesn't want it anymore no matter the reason? If that is the case giotto needs to decide for himself whether not having sex anymore is tolerable for him. If not he should move on.

 

Not saying that they shouldn't try counseling and try to see if there is a problem that they can solve but if it's not something that they can solve they should divorce.

 

 

 

 

LOL. What's wrong is that he's not getting any sex. There's no need for further conversation about that particular issue. She knows she's withholding sex from giotto and she's emotionally blackmailing him to feel guilty for even wanting to have sex with her. That's ridiculous. We already know that giotto's wife is willing to have sex with him if she feels the stakes are sufficiently high. She had sex with him when she thought he was serious about leaving her. Giotto needs to try some things that will persuade her to have sex with him short of actually leaving the marital home, if at all possible.

 

There is a reason that she does not want to have sex be it hormonal, emotional, physical or anything else. That is what needs to be talked about in a conversation. Get to the actual cause of the problem and see if it can be worked out.

 

She was willing because she still wants the marriage (for financial stability, because she loves her husband, children, etc.)and perhaps did it out of desperation. She may still love her husband very much but just does not desire sex.

 

 

Giotto already separated from his wife and it was only then that she took him seriously enough to have sex with him. She is playing hardball and dirty pool with him, emotionally blackmailing him, and "hardball" is the only thing she apparently understands.

 

Again that does not mean that she wanted that sex and if she had not been desperate to keep the marriage from breaking apart would not have had it.

 

 

 

Why not? You don't think some women like a little bit of forcefulness from their man? That kind of thing excites plenty of women; it's part of foreplay for a lot of couples.

 

I completely agree with you on this, but (and that is a big but) those types of things are talked about beforehand as sexual preferences. Just because some women like forcefulness does not mean you can force someone that does not want to have sex, to have sex. Assuming that she'll like it because that's how women are. Everyone has their own sexual preferences.

 

 

Hysterical much? Do really envision giotto of all people as being prone to committing rape? There's a big range between being a weak spineless jellyfish and a rapist. Unfortunately giotto falls towards the jellyfish side of that spectrum. He needs to move a couple of notches towards the macho side.

 

Of course I do not envision giotto doing that. I was responding to your allusions to rape in your posts. I wanted to show that not all women are going to, as soon as you start forcing yourself on them, just melt in your arms and thank you afterward for making them feel sexual again.

 

 

Wow you really know how to make a reasoned argument, don't you? You don't think having sexual relations with a person's spouse is a marital obligation? But I'll bet you think it's a husband's obligation to do 50% of the household chores, 50% of the child care, 50% of the income earning, right? Your idea of "marriage" doesn't include sex--but it does include doing the dishes? Do you realize how inane that is?

 

I do not think a wife or husband have any obligations to the other. Marriage means to me that two people have decided that they would like to have a long term commitment and they feel love towards each other. I don't think that marriage means that I married a person that must do everything that I ask of them because they would just do it if they loved me enough.

 

People can have standards like splitting everything 50/50 and if someone doesn't want to do their fair share of the work then the 2 people can have a conversation about why they don't want to. If they can work it out, work it out. If not, separate.

 

It makes sense to me to not stay in a marriage where your needs are not being met and you've tried working out the issues.

 

 

 

Why not? If I don't feel like taking the garbage out, doing the dishes, changing the baby's diaper, or getting up out of bed in the morning to go earn wages, then I shouldn't have to do that either. By your logic. If I don't feel like doing something that is considered part of a normal marital relationship, then I have no obligation to do it.

 

Read response above

 

Giotto and other "nice guys" who post these threads, who are victims of totally unjust sexual denial, aren't some imaginary ogres that you're envisioning in your feminist-agitprop poisoned mind. They are the opposite. They are "nice guys." They would never hurt their spouses, ever. They are afraid of their spouses.

 

I understand that these men are decent human beings. But I do not think they are (on average) victims of unjust sexual denial. I was responding only to your responses about forcing, coercing, and obligations to having sex.

 

I don't think they are afraid of their spouses either. They may be afraid of losing someone they love in a divorce. They are caring guys that don't want to make their wives give up their body to them to have fun with. They want a partner that they have sex with, not a semen receptacle.

 

 

Part of the reason they are afraid of their spouses is that they have internalized the kind of ridiculous nonsense spouted by people like yourself--people with absolutely no real life experience who don't know how to have a loving, meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex.

 

I have a very loving, meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex. I love having sex and enjoy sharing intimacy with my partner. You have no idea about my real life experience.

 

People who think spouses have no right or expectation to have sex with the person they're married to. You're wrong, and you're wrong because you don't know how to think. You're not relating your own ideas; you're relating meaningless propaganda that you learned from other people who do not know what it takes to have successful relationships with other people.

 

I'm wrong because I don't know how to think. Really? Wow.

I'm relating my opinions just like you are.

 

 

LOL yes of course you did. That's the point.

 

How is that the point? I was not in the mood but my partner who would like to have sex with me decided to try and get me aroused to the point that I would want to have sex with him. I did and we had sex. That is not the same as a guy saying that "if you don't have sex with me there will be consequences" or a guy pulling me in the bedroom and sticking it in me over and over.

 

 

You obviously can't read. Where did giotto ever say he didn't do everything in his power to get his spouse "ready" for sex? They're not having sex because she will not let him have sex with her. It has nothing to do with whether or not she is properly lubed up.

 

I wrote that because you brought up this idea

 

"By the way she will enjoy it if you have any knowledge of female anatomy. You can tell she's enjoying it if her skin flushes, if her nipples harden, if her clit hardens, etc. etc. etc.

 

Did you know that women can sometimes orgasm even if they are being raped? The physiological response is the easy part. You just have to rub the naughty bits the right way."

 

Just because a woman can orgasm during a rape doesn't mean that she's enjoying it and having your body flushed and nipples harden doesn't mean she's enjoying it either. You get those same symptoms when you're fighting sometimes and you're usually not enjoying that.

 

I was trying to say that a man needs to arouse his partner to the point that she wants it not just make her body physically react to insertion.

[giotto]

Thank you for your insights.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t have a plan at the moment. I have a very sneaky feeling that we might have left this “let’s fix sex now” thingy too late... maybe the damage is irreparable?

I’m a normal guy and she is quite messed-up... I’ve put up with it for a long time because of the children and because I thought that, once they’d grown up a bit, it would get better... I was fooling myself.

 

I’m pretty sure that everything I do she is relating it to me wanting sex. To be honest, I’m quite worried about her, because of her mental state, and I’m being a bit more attentive towards her, asking her if she is ok, etc. I’m sure she is thinking that I’m being nice to her so she can fix herself and then we can have sex.

 

I think our relationship is broken... there’s too much baggage... it will never be normal again. She needs to fix her issues, otherwise there is no way ahead... Next week I will ask her what she is doing about it... and about her meds... hopefully, she won't see this as being pushy...

[JamesM]

You mention her working third shift....how long has she been on third shift?

 

Has this made her mental condition worse, better, or the same?

 

Have you had sex problems before she worked third shift?

 

My wife worked third shift for many years and this did make our sex diminish even more. Now that she is on a normal shift, we do have it more often. Obviously our problems did not disappear. But wed do have sex more often.

 

Even more so of importance, my wife's mental state is so much better. She is much happier. She gets better sleep. She has much fewer physical problems.

 

Point is...can her working third shift be related?

[giotto]

You mention her working third shift....how long has she been on third shift?

 

Has this made her mental condition worse, better, or the same?

 

Have you had sex problems before she worked third shift?

 

My wife worked third shift for many years and this did make our sex diminish even more. Now that she is on a normal shift, we do have it more often. Obviously our problems did not disappear. But wed do have sex more often.

 

Even more so of importance, my wife's mental state is so much better. She is much happier. She gets better sleep. She has much fewer physical problems.

 

Point is...can her working third shift be related?

 

James, she is working shifts, which change all the time... once every three weeks she does the third shift... 3 nights a week. It's a fairly physical job and she is on her feet all the time. The third shift usually gives her a migrane... I suppose she finds it difficult to adjust. I do believe that her working shifts is contributing to our difficulties... it's more difficult to find the right "window" for sex. Also, she is 47, so it takes her a lot longer than let's say a 18 year old to recover...

 

She was very unhappy in her previous job, so she changed career and she loves her present one... for me, it's been a lot worse, since I have to look after the kids when she is at work, like in the evenings, week-ends, etc. and also when I'm suppose to work as well.. I did look after the kids before, obviously, but it was less intensive (her previous job was a 9-3 job).

 

So, it's a factor, but I don't think it's the reason...

 

I would like to add that comparing sex as marital duty to taking out the garbage is ludicrous... my wife owns her body and she can do what she likes with it... taking out the garbage doesn't usually involve sticking something your body...

[troggleputty]

Thank you for your insights.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t have a plan at the moment.

 

You have to have some kind of a plan, even if it's: "Doing nothing" for now.

 

 

I have a very sneaky feeling that we might have left this “let’s fix sex now” thingy too late... maybe the damage is irreparable?

 

If so then you have nothing to lose by trying anything and everything to save your marriage.

 

 

I’m a normal guy and she is quite messed-up...

 

You need to re-evaluate this perspective. She may be messed-up but you've played a part in this relationship, too.

 

 

 

I’ve put up with it for a long time because of the children and because I thought that, once they’d grown up a bit, it would get better... I was fooling myself.

 

Maybe not fooling yourself...you did what you thought was correct at the time, but it didn't work. Therefore you should try something different.

 

 

I’m pretty sure that everything I do she is relating it to me wanting sex.

 

You can't control what she thinks. This is about her behavior towards you.

 

 

To be honest, I’m quite worried about her, because of her mental state,

 

Well if the problems in your marriage stem from actual mental illness that she suffers from, then there's not much you can do other than help her try to get professional treatment.

 

 

and I’m being a bit more attentive towards her, asking her if she is ok, etc.

 

 

This is a mistake. This is "nice guy" behavior and your wife for whatever reason reacts negatively towards "nice guy" behavior. The answer is in one of your earlier posts in which you indicated that it was only when you separated from her that your wife started to be more generous, sexually speaking, at least for a while. Your wife has decided that it's OK to make you, her husband, feel guilty because you want to have sex with her. Why do you think being more attentive towards your wife is the correct approach to take at this point?

 

I’m sure she is thinking that I’m being nice to her so she can fix herself and then we can have sex.

 

I doubt it. She's probably thinking that she's got you over a barrel and that you are too intimidated by her drama to try to impose your will on the marital relationship. Your wife is using denial of sex as a weapon to control you.

 

"Being nice" isn't working, it's never worked for you. You're not "being nice." That's something you tell yourself to justify your own role in this dysfunctional relationship and to keep you in your comfort zone so this status quo you have will never change. You're blaming your wife for all the problems in your relationship.

 

What you are, is too passive.

 

Sex or no sex...it's almost beside the point. When your wife started to manipulate you to not even be able to ask for sex, you should have told her that was simply unacceptable. No she doesn't have to give you sex if she doesn't want to. But she's not entitled to make you feel guilty just for asking for sex. She's got you thoroughly brainwashed.

 

 

I think our relationship is broken...

 

Obviously.

 

there’s too much baggage... it will never be normal again.

 

It doesn't have to be "normal." It just has to work for both of you. It doesn't right now. At some point in the past, it did work. So it's possible to make it work again but only if both of you want it to work.

 

 

She needs to fix her issues, otherwise there is no way ahead...

 

Yes she does. But you need to fix your own issues. You think that the appropriate response to being emotionally blackmailed by your wife is to cave in to that emotional blackmail. All your passivity does is to reinforce your wife's dysfunctional behavior. IOW you are co-dependent.

 

 

Next week I will ask her what she is doing about it... and about her meds... hopefully, she won't see this as being pushy...

 

Why do you care whether she sees it as "pushy"? If the right thing to do is to make sure she is getting and taking her "meds," then why are you so afraid that she will perceive your efforts as "pushy"?

 

Why are you afraid of being "pushy"? What do you think she will do to you if you are "pushy"? Cut off sex? Oh wait...she's already done that.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess right now giotto. I'll bet your wife is exactly the same way emotionally speaking that your mother was.

 

Right?

[troggleputty]

 

 

Umm he is forcing celibacy on me just the same as Giotto's wife is forcing celibacy on him.

 

Actually I think your situation is different from giotto's. Your h has some kind of a porn addiction which is impairing his ability to be sexual with you. That's not an issue with giotto's wife as far as I can tell. If you solve the porn addiction of your h you solve the entire problem.

 

 

 

Why on earth would this sexual fantasy stuff work on a male who you claim is passive and he needs to be the aggressor?

 

Because in his mind and in his fantasies, i.e. porn/self pleasuring, your h is not "passive." He's the aggressor. He's expressing himself in his fantasy life in a way that he does not feel comfortable expressing to or with you. That's why he's using porn as a constant outlet even though you say you are readily available to him.

 

Men may love to watch freakish things in porn but many don't want to do it in real life. It is too intimidating.

 

I have no idea what type of porn your h likes or whether he would actually want to play out those fantasies IRL. All I suggested was that it might be very helpful to your relationship to actually try to find out what those fantasies are, i.e., communicate with your h. You don't have to if you don't want to. If it was me I would be very curious what is so great about his porn, or his fantasies, that he would rather use them than have sex with you.

 

Anyway the porn he watches is very typical non freakish things like MILF and creampie and certainly nothing I haven't already done in bed with him.

 

I think you are missing the point and seeing only what you want to see. You have an "issue" with your h's use of porn. (If you didn't care then fine it wouldn't matter.) The porn must be giving your h something, some type of gratification (possibly psychological rather than sexual)that he feels he is not getting from you. It may be something that is very easy to correct or address--if you find out what it is. That's why I suggested you ask him about what his actual fantasies are. Or ask him why he sometimes prefers porn to you, if (as you claim) you are "available" to him.

 

 

 

He may actually feel more comfortable if I laid there like a starfish.

 

I don't know if you're just being sarcastic because you disagree with what I've posted, or whether you actually have this kind of attitude of resentfulness and disrespect towards your own husband.

 

Do you actually regard your h as so uncaring of you and so indifferent to your needs that you seriously believe he would prefer it if you laid there like a starfish?

 

If so then your attitude of disdain and resentment as to your h's ability to please you in bed must surely be communicating itself to your h. It certainly communicates itself in your posts.

 

Start with that. It doesn't surprise me that your h might not be the most eager sexual partner in the world, and might seek frequent recourse to self-pleasuring, if he senses your disdain and disrespect for him.

[troggleputty]

 

Just because a woman can orgasm during a rape doesn't mean that she's enjoying it and having your body flushed and nipples harden doesn't mean she's enjoying it either. You get those same symptoms when you're fighting sometimes and you're usually not enjoying that.

 

You're missing the point. It's not "rape" if a husband gets his wife in the mood to have sex by using rather standard foreplay techniques. It's the opposite of "rape." It's called being a good lover. The point being, that if even rape victims can be physically stimulated by certain types of physical touching, then obviously one's marital partner should not have all that much of a problem getting to sufficient state of arousal to permit intercourse.

But, according to some of the reasoning I've seen expressed on this thread, any physical touching of one's spouse without first asking for and receiving explicit verbal permission would be considered "force," "non consensual," and hence "rape" or "attempted rape."

 

That's not how normal, healthy partners who are married to each other, have had children with each other, live together, etc., relate to each other.

 

Do I have to ask my life partner whether I'm permitted to hug her before I do that? Or kiss her? Because if I don't ask first, I'm impermissibly using "force" to try to stimulate her sexually? Is that what you really think? If so, then I'm afraid you do not understand normal healthy human relationships.

 

Giotto has now been instructed by his wife that he is not even allowed to express the desire to have sex with her anymore. Forget about "touching" her without her consent. He's not even allowed to talk to her about having sex anymore. Because merely hearing the words of sexual desire expressed by giotto is apparently viewed as an impermissible "assault," a form of "mental rape."

 

Giotto and his wife are where they are I suspect in large part because they both bought into the type of "reasoning" that I think you believe to be correct, but which I think is incorrect.

 

I was trying to say that a man needs to arouse his partner to the point that she wants it not just make her body physically react to insertion.

 

Why is it the "man's job" to arouse his partner? Do you or do you not believe in "equality of the sexes"? Why isn't it the woman's job to get herself aroused, and to do whatever is necessary to arouse the man?

 

Double standards indeed.

[troggleputty]

James, she is working shifts, which change all the time... once every three weeks she does the third shift... 3 nights a week. It's a fairly physical job and she is on her feet all the time. The third shift usually gives her a migrane... I suppose she finds it difficult to adjust. I do believe that her working shifts is contributing to our difficulties... it's more difficult to find the right "window" for sex. Also, she is 47, so it takes her a lot longer than let's say a 18 year old to recover...

 

Giotto you are rationalizing the issue now. Now you're claiming that your marital problems stem from scheduling and work issues.

 

Really? If that's what the problem is, I would think your wife would be eager to try to mutually address it. Has she? Have the two of you sat down and discussed work schedules, including blocking out a few hours each week for "alone" time?

 

She was very unhappy in her previous job, so she changed career and she loves her present one...

 

Is her job more important than her marriage? If the problem really is her job and there's no other solution, couldn't she change jobs?

 

 

 

for me, it's been a lot worse, since I have to look after the kids when she is at work, like in the evenings, week-ends, etc. and also when I'm suppose to work as well.. I did look after the kids before, obviously, but it was less intensive (her previous job was a 9-3 job).

 

It seems to me that barring any other available solution, you could hire a baby sitter for one evening a week to watch your kids, and take your wife to a non-expensive motel. Maybe this would cost $100 a week?

 

 

 

So, it's a factor, but I don't think it's the reason...

 

Your wife has told you that she doesn't even like it when you talk to her about sex. How can her job be to blame for that?

 

 

 

 

I would like to add that comparing sex as marital duty to taking out the garbage is ludicrous...

 

Your certainty that my analogy/comparison is "ludicrous" is contradicted by the fact that your marriage is failing and you don't seem to have a clue what to do about it.

 

Sex with one's spouse is a marital duty in the sense that we all have a duty in marriage not only to make ourselves happy; but also to try our best to make our spouse happy.

 

One of the problems you are having is that your wife apparently does not perceive that she has any obligations in her marriage to make you giotto happy. It is all about "her" happiness. It is about what you can do for her.

 

I'll tell you what, giotto. Stop taking out the garbage. Stop doing any chores around the house. Stop doing any child care. Stop looking after the children. See how long that lasts. And, when asked why you've stopped, tell your wife that you've stopped doing them because you find it unpleasant to do those things.

 

 

 

my wife owns her body and she can do what she likes with it...

 

This is the key to your problem, you have been fully inculcated in feminist propaganda/agitprop and don't even realize it.

 

What does it mean to say that your wife "owns her body"? No one "owns" a human being. And no...she can't do whatever she likes with her body. Not as long as she's married and has children she's responsible for. You see, you and your wife seem to believe that your wife has rights, but no responsibilities (i.e. "obligations") associated with those rights.

 

If you literally mean what you say, giotto...that your wife "can do what she likes" with her body, because she "owns" it...then you must also agree that she can freely have sex with any other person she wants to.

 

And by inference, giotto, do you really believe that YOU can do whatever you want with your own body? If you do believe that, then all well and good. Find someone else to have sex with, your problems are solved.

 

 

taking out the garbage doesn't usually involve sticking something your body...

 

You talk about your wife, and sex with your wife, as if you and she both perceive you as a crazed rapist jumping out at her from behind the bushes.

 

As noted, she has you thoroughly brainwashed.

[silverfish]

Thank you for your insights.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t have a plan at the moment. I have a very sneaky feeling that we might have left this “let’s fix sex now” thingy too late... maybe the damage is irreparable?

I’m a normal guy and she is quite messed-up... I’ve put up with it for a long time because of the children and because I thought that, once they’d grown up a bit, it would get better... I was fooling myself.

 

I’m pretty sure that everything I do she is relating it to me wanting sex. To be honest, I’m quite worried about her, because of her mental state, and I’m being a bit more attentive towards her, asking her if she is ok, etc. I’m sure she is thinking that I’m being nice to her so she can fix herself and then we can have sex.

 

I think our relationship is broken... there’s too much baggage... it will never be normal again. She needs to fix her issues, otherwise there is no way ahead... Next week I will ask her what she is doing about it... and about her meds... hopefully, she won't see this as being pushy...

 

Why not go with James' suggestion (I think it was) of booking some couselling for her? You can always cancel it if necessary.

 

I can relate to the shifts...that's what did for my exH & me, when our children were smaller, we both worked 45-50 hours, with no childcare...just took it in turns to work / sleep. It was a nightmare.

 

We never had time to eat or relax together. It was just get in from work, a ten minute chat, then one of us would leave for work. Sometimes when you have children you do whatever it takes to keep going financially, without stopping to think about the long term point of it all.

 

If you talk to her, maybe say that you are very worried about her, to the point you have booked some counselling, and want her to take a couple of weeks off sick. Also tell her that you are close to leaving if you are serious about that, but that you want to explore every avenue before you do.

 

I've been in a similar situation to you, which ended up with my exH in a pretty serious state - don't want to go into too many details, but I wish I'd done something sooner.

[mem11363]

Insisting on sexual fidelity without offering sexual love is simply abusive.

 

The real marital obligation is emotional. You can't have a healthy marriage where one of the partners is indifferent to the misery/pain they are causing the other.

 

The side effect of this type situation is deceit - and self deceit. Everyone starts trying to pretend something different is happening.

 

This situation is so fraught for G - that he is now digging for scheduling reasons - work reasons. You cannot really stay sane while at one level you know that one thing is happening and yet you try to convince yourself something totally different is going on.

 

She won't accept G as a husband - sexually

She won't accept G as a roommate - free him to pursue sex outside the marriage.

 

G - I sincerely hope you plan to leave when youngest turns 18 at the latest.

 

Giotto you are rationalizing the issue now. Now you're claiming that your marital problems stem from scheduling and work issues.

 

Really? If that's what the problem is, I would think your wife would be eager to try to mutually address it. Has she? Have the two of you sat down and discussed work schedules, including blocking out a few hours each week for "alone" time?

 

 

 

Is her job more important than her marriage? If the problem really is her job and there's no other solution, couldn't she change jobs?

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that barring any other available solution, you could hire a baby sitter for one evening a week to watch your kids, and take your wife to a non-expensive motel. Maybe this would cost $100 a week?

 

 

 

 

 

Your wife has told you that she doesn't even like it when you talk to her about sex. How can her job be to blame for that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your certainty that my analogy/comparison is "ludicrous" is contradicted by the fact that your marriage is failing and you don't seem to have a clue what to do about it.

 

Sex with one's spouse is a marital duty in the sense that we all have a duty in marriage not only to make ourselves happy; but also to try our best to make our spouse happy.

 

One of the problems you are having is that your wife apparently does not perceive that she has any obligations in her marriage to make you giotto happy. It is all about "her" happiness. It is about what you can do for her.

 

I'll tell you what, giotto. Stop taking out the garbage. Stop doing any chores around the house. Stop doing any child care. Stop looking after the children. See how long that lasts. And, when asked why you've stopped, tell your wife that you've stopped doing them because you find it unpleasant to do those things.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the key to your problem, you have been fully inculcated in feminist propaganda/agitprop and don't even realize it.

 

What does it mean to say that your wife "owns her body"? No one "owns" a human being. And no...she can't do whatever she likes with her body. Not as long as she's married and has children she's responsible for. You see, you and your wife seem to believe that your wife has rights, but no responsibilities (i.e. "obligations") associated with those rights.

 

If you literally mean what you say, giotto...that your wife "can do what she likes" with her body, because she "owns" it...then you must also agree that she can freely have sex with any other person she wants to.

 

And by inference, giotto, do you really believe that YOU can do whatever you want with your own body? If you do believe that, then all well and good. Find someone else to have sex with, your problems are solved.

 

 

 

 

You talk about your wife, and sex with your wife, as if you and she both perceive you as a crazed rapist jumping out at her from behind the bushes.

 

As noted, she has you thoroughly brainwashed.

[giotto]

 

G - I sincerely hope you plan to leave when youngest turns 18 at the latest.

 

If things don't change, I plan to leave a lot earlier than that... my youngest turned 9 last Tuesday...

[silverfish]

Ok. I agree with Mem's post...however..you said yourself G that you are worried about your wife right? Despite everything that's going on with you, you are worried about her mental health..

 

If you are married to someone who is mentally ill - potentially, then I think you owe it to your kids at least to try and help get that part sorted out. I'm not saying she's right, or behaving well...nothing like that. Just, what if you leave her?

 

Say you do leave, and she has a nervous breakdown, or worse...say she gets sectioned for her own protection. I don't know how serious it is, but all I can tell you is that it's UNLIKELY that you know either at this point in time. it's not up to you to try and 'sort her out' at this point in time - she needs to get professional help to do that, but from what you said it's unlikely she is going to do anything about it.

 

At the moment it seems like you are the stronger one emotionally, so it falls on you to act on this. It's not a great position to be in, and it may cause you further hurt. You honestly should try to sort it out though because whatever happens you still have to function as parents even if you decide it is over.

 

That part - the practicalities, the day to day, work and so on....that just gets harder when you are apart. Please be careful...I know you're very hurt yourself (and you should get some outside help too), but to do nothing, and just leave her would be something you could regret in the long run.

 

Is there anyone she trusts or is close to that you can talk to - Mum, sister or friend? Maybe you should get a second opinion from someone close if you're not sure.

[threebyfate]

I suggested taking "week-end holidays" from the ADs, but she refused. She also tried to get off them, but she says that the anxiety and recurrent thoughts come back with a vengeance and that she cannot live without the ADs... when she was off them, we were having sex 3 times a week, as opposite to once every other week... it was dream come true for me! She won't budge on this and she says that her lack of libido is also partially due to the ADs... what can I do? Nothing. Unfortunately, she's been on them for a long time and when she started taking them our problems started as well... the thing is, she knew this, but couldn't or wouldn't do anything to fix it... my pressure made things worse... I just couldn't understand why she wouldn't put a little effort into our relationship. Result? We are separated now...

giotto, I'm going to remind you of this post, which appears to encompass the entire issue. Your wife is on libido killing meds. She's not doing this to hurt you deliberately. But if she goes off the meds, she's living a life full of anxiety.

 

What a horrible position to be in.

[SarahRose]

 

Actually I think your situation is different from giotto's. Your h has some kind of a porn addiction which is impairing his ability to be sexual with you. That's not an issue with giotto's wife as far as I can tell. If you solve the porn addiction of your h you solve the entire problem.

 

 

 

 

 

Because in his mind and in his fantasies, i.e. porn/self pleasuring, your h is not "passive." He's the aggressor. He's expressing himself in his fantasy life in a way that he does not feel comfortable expressing to or with you. That's why he's using porn as a constant outlet even though you say you are readily available to him.

 

 

 

I have no idea what type of porn your h likes or whether he would actually want to play out those fantasies IRL. All I suggested was that it might be very helpful to your relationship to actually try to find out what those fantasies are, i.e., communicate with your h. You don't have to if you don't want to. If it was me I would be very curious what is so great about his porn, or his fantasies, that he would rather use them than have sex with you.

 

 

 

I think you are missing the point and seeing only what you want to see. You have an "issue" with your h's use of porn. (If you didn't care then fine it wouldn't matter.) The porn must be giving your h something, some type of gratification (possibly psychological rather than sexual)that he feels he is not getting from you. It may be something that is very easy to correct or address--if you find out what it is. That's why I suggested you ask him about what his actual fantasies are. Or ask him why he sometimes prefers porn to you, if (as you claim) you are "available" to him.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if you're just being sarcastic because you disagree with what I've posted, or whether you actually have this kind of attitude of resentfulness and disrespect towards your own husband.

 

Do you actually regard your h as so uncaring of you and so indifferent to your needs that you seriously believe he would prefer it if you laid there like a starfish?

 

If so then your attitude of disdain and resentment as to your h's ability to please you in bed must surely be communicating itself to your h. It certainly communicates itself in your posts.

 

Start with that. It doesn't surprise me that your h might not be the most eager sexual partner in the world, and might seek frequent recourse to self-pleasuring, if he senses your disdain and disrespect for him.

 

Your issues against women are clearly showing in the completely different way you respond to me and to a male poster having the same problem.

 

You are blaming me for the issue saying I'm resentful and angry and that is why he isn't having sex with me and questioning how willing I really am. Ridiculous. You should work on your own issues before giving anyone else advice.

[SarahRose]

BTW another update. We did it again this morning! Yay!

 

I am thinking that him staying up all night on the computer and not coming to bed at the same time and the porn is what is causing the problem.

 

Since he moved the computer into the bedroom, we are closer and more time together as when I come in, he turns it off and spends time with me.

 

With me and the computer being in the bedroom, there is no chance for him to be looking at porn.

 

Maybe this is simply a bad habit and laziness?