"Thrown under the bus"

[White Flower]

LOL talk about denial. You really believe she knows and should call YOU but she doesn't want to know the truth? Maybe she trusts her husband because he gives her no reason not to but you, you know the truth.

I didn't say I believe she knows. I said she knows my number but she doesn't call me (and stay on the phone long enough to leave a message or wait for me to answer) but she has called me at least twice. If she would have asked me to call her back I would have called her back. I also said if she wants the truth she should call me.

 

People should really follow their gut instinct if they really want to know what is going on. Don't just trust someone on their word, espcially after D-day.

 

Currently, as I'm told, she follows him wherever he goes to make sure he is not with me, lol, same routine as always. Saw him today though. I guess today was one of those 'marriage is built on trust' days.

 

I don't say that to be tongue-in-cheek. I tell you to make you aware.

 

There is no denial here but I don't need to convince you.

[pureinheart]

I am thinking more and more this is the problem with many MM. They have not taken charge of their own lives. They have not stood up and claimed the right to live their lives as they prefer. Perhaps it is time now for that teenage revolt they never had?

 

 

Yes, I would agree that this is mostly the case.

[bentnotbroken]

Actually, I don't believe he 'lets her believe' anything but that is beside the point.

 

The thing that bothers me about this kind of person is that they have no problem blaming one AP but not the AP they are married to (I call us both AP because we are both in the affair therefore equal to each other in position and action). He is just as much as a @#$%$^ as I am but I get the names and he gets the begging, pleading, and forgiveness. It makes me laugh actually.

 

Especially given that her H is very selective.

 

You don't see this kind of behavior from the more intelligent BS here such as Herenow, Spark, and 2sure. They never tried to belittle the OW because they saw them just as hurt as themselves by their H.

 

 

I agree with this completely. Mr. Messy wasn't an innocent bystander. He pursued MOW, he brought her into our home, he chose to look for an A. She chose to allow the pursuit without putting a stop to it, she chose to enter my home and have sex with him there, and she was willing to engage in an A with him. He is responsible for his actions and she for hers. There is shared responsibility in the mess. Unfortunately I do believe that the blame isn't placed equally because of gender stereotypes that have been passed down from generation to generation. The woman will always get more blame, my mother calls it the "Eve syndrome".

Edited March 4, 2010 by bentnotbroken

[donnamaybe]

The thing that bothers me about this kind of person is that they have no problem blaming one AP but not the AP they are married to (I call us both AP because we are both in the affair therefore equal to each other in position and action). He is just as much as a @#$%$^ as I am but I get the names and he gets the begging, pleading, and forgiveness. It makes me laugh actually.

 

Especially given that her H is very selective.

 

So his W must be a pretty nice gal then.

[Dexter Morgan]

You don't see this kind of behavior from the more intelligent BS here such as Herenow, Spark, and 2sure. They never tried to belittle the OW because they saw them just as hurt as themselves by their H.

 

Ah, so basically because a BS might scared, hurt, confused, desperate and not in their right mind because of the betrayal that has been bestowed upon them......they aren't intelligent?

 

because the wife sees that you put yourself in that position of messing around with her husband and may not sympathize with you in the least......she is not intelligent?

[silverplanets]

Well, that is the continous debate of whether they are all cakeeaters or not. If you read tbone's thread over in Infidelity, you could see how he stated he was even pshysically sick:

 

"And I am seriously on the brink of collapse. I"m having major neck pain, migraines, and fatigue from the stress of this."

 

This I believe is the reality for many of the MM who are not cakeeaters, but deeply conflicted what to do. You can't exactly believe that any man wants to have it like that.

 

In my opinion a teenage revolt is needed to finish growing up, to take responsibility for your own life and happiness and not just live life like "you are supposed to", like your parents, church and society told you to.

 

Oh, and I am not here by choice, but I am staying by choice. I never expected to become the OW.

 

I checked out tbones thread - he's not conflicted .. he wants both ... he just can't have it .. that's not conflict .. that's reality !!! His pain is because he likes none of the choices - but again, that's the reality of choices ... this is not deep mind stuff .. this is basic reality of any choice.

 

Also .. I'm beginning to have an uneasy feeling about this idea of diminishing the MM/MW's responsibility by ascribing a third party behaviour to them .. (eg splitting, not yet had their teenage rebellion etc etc) ...

 

My issue is that all of these things indicate that the MM/MW is not "entirerly of sound mind" .. and so my question is why would one choose to have a relationship with someone who is not of sound mind?

 

At best .. if one is claiming that they are incapable of full cogniscent operation then one should also be willing to admit that one should not treat them as an adult and should simply take them to a doctor.

 

Trying to mould someone who you know is deficient in mental development could itself be interpreted as a form of abuse ...

 

I'm not getting at you .. but do you see where I am coming from ...

 

The defence that they are not "whole" in some way means that one should not be treating them as whole .. ... you can't be their healer if you have an ulterior motive/interest ... do you see my point? If you claim they are excused their behaviour because they are not fully functioning then surely it is wrong for another adult who IS fully functioning to take advantage of that ...

 

I'm not fully formed on these thoughts, as I said it's just a growing uneasiness with this line of argument .....

 

Perhaps it's best to give an analogy .. children are not fully developed/aware so therefore one's job as a parent is to protect them somewhat from adult influences that they do not have the skills and experience to cope with ...

 

If, as seems to be the suggestion, these MM/MW are defined as not being fully developed then again they need to be protected from influences (such as additional relationships) until they have developed .. and how can you protect them when you want them in a relationship with you???

 

Isn't it like seeing a shrink who has ulterior motives on you ....

 

Chris

[jennie-jennie]

I checked out tbones thread - he's not conflicted .. he wants both ... he just can't have it .. that's not conflict .. that's reality !!! His pain is because he likes none of the choices - but again, that's the reality of choices ... this is not deep mind stuff .. this is basic reality of any choice.

 

Also .. I'm beginning to have an uneasy feeling about this idea of diminishing the MM/MW's responsibility by ascribing a third party behaviour to them .. (eg splitting, not yet had their teenage rebellion etc etc) ...

 

My issue is that all of these things indicate that the MM/MW is not "entirerly of sound mind" .. and so my question is why would one choose to have a relationship with someone who is not of sound mind?

 

At best .. if one is claiming that they are incapable of full cogniscent operation then one should also be willing to admit that one should not treat them as an adult and should simply take them to a doctor.

 

Trying to mould someone who you know is deficient in mental development could itself be interpreted as a form of abuse ...

 

I'm not getting at you .. but do you see where I am coming from ...

 

The defence that they are not "whole" in some way means that one should not be treating them as whole .. ... you can't be their healer if you have an ulterior motive/interest ... do you see my point? If you claim they are excused their behaviour because they are not fully functioning then surely it is wrong for another adult who IS fully functioning to take advantage of that ...

 

I'm not fully formed on these thoughts, as I said it's just a growing uneasiness with this line of argument .....

 

Perhaps it's best to give an analogy .. children are not fully developed/aware so therefore one's job as a parent is to protect them somewhat from adult influences that they do not have the skills and experience to cope with ...

 

If, as seems to be the suggestion, these MM/MW are defined as not being fully developed then again they need to be protected from influences (such as additional relationships) until they have developed .. and how can you protect them when you want them in a relationship with you???

 

Isn't it like seeing a shrink who has ulterior motives on you ....

 

Chris

 

My family of origin is a dysfunctional family, my MM's family of origin is a dysfunctional family. My family with my exSO was/is a dysfunctional family, I believe so is my MM's present family. "Alike children play best".

 

I am not my MM's healer or therapist, I am his equal, I too am a human being in progress. As I have stated earlier, he helped me heal from my earlier abusive relationship. Perhaps through our relationship he can deal with some of his issues in life.

 

I believe my MM is a good man. Finding an explanation of why he still is having an affair instead of getting a divorce helps me. And it offers a chance to do something about it: therapy.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of tbone. He seems to be a classic example of the Split Self if you ask me. Silverplanets, why are you so suddenly into this cakeeater stuff? That is making me uneasy.

[jennie-jennie]

I was influenced by Emily Brown actually:

 

"Integrating Heart and Mind. If you're like Doug, you're probably thinking, 'All I need to do is make a decision - it doesn't make sense to get into all this other psychological stuff.' It's difficult to shift from rational analysis to your emotional self but all that analysis hasn't paid off yet. You will have to use your emotional self for anything to change. When you've grown up enough not to need a mother any more, you can risk not being a 'good boy.' An affair certainly breaks the 'good boy' mold. These affairs are akin to late adolescence when teens break their parents' rules as part of learning about how to live their own lives in the larger world."

(from Affairs)

 

And there are others who talk about new love relationships being like a revolution to your former life style.

[moaningmyrtle]

I posted something earlier that has been removed for being disrespectful. For that I'm sorry.

 

On a related note I do get upset when I see some posters who post terrible things about people who are not posters on this list. Examples of this are when people post what a terrible person (an OW, a BW, an AP, a MM) of another person must be. [in other words not their own OW, MM, BW etc but another person's]

 

Eg "your H is a ***" or "his wife is a ***" or "your AP is a ***"

 

It seems to me that the only purpose of some of these types of posts is to make another poster feel bad about themselves, for being in a relationship with such a terrible person, or even in a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with such a person.

[White Flower]

So his W must be a pretty nice gal then.

If you check throughout my two and a half years of postings you'll find I always stated she was a nice gal. Many on this thread continue to post that I am being the arrogant one when they miss the entire point. It was she who said nasty things about me without having known me. They seem to be ok with that, however.

 

Being thrown under the bus is a very painful experience. Some of the BWs here at LS have shown great compassion for someone in that position because they knew what the OW just lost the very man they themselves love. To gloat and denigrate someone when she is down smacks of ...something I could never find myself doing.

 

I was a BW and I had to confront the OW. I never kicked her when she was down and I didn't gloat when my exH called the A off. I couldn't blame her for loving the same man I did. But I did feel I had the right to tell her to stop stalking my home and my business.

 

MM's W has every right to be angry at her H for betraying her. She has every right to call him names and to punish him any way she sees fit. But to bury her head in the sand, believe his lies, and make the OW the only bad person in all of it is just wrong in my eyes. And trying to convince her H on this when he knows the truth just makes her look more like a fool IMHO.

[JustJoe]

IMO, being thrown under the bus means being discarded, like an old pair of shoes.

[White Flower]

Ah, so basically because a BS might scared, hurt, confused, desperate and not in their right mind because of the betrayal that has been bestowed upon them......they aren't intelligent?

 

because the wife sees that you put yourself in that position of messing around with her husband and may not sympathize with you in the least......she is not intelligent?

Well we can get into the whole conversation of IQ versus EQ but I don't want to go to far off the path of this thread and its subject. Sure she is allowed to go out of her mind, depending on the 'crime'. In this case it was evidence of phone calls. And she believes that's all it ever was.

 

Given that background information one would find it unusual for a W to become desperate and not in their right mind (although I might agree with your other adjectives) because of the betrayal (phone calls) that had been bestowed upon them. I agree with you that she is allowed to be scared, hurt, and confused.

 

The part I find unintelligent is standing behind her man when he is just as guilty if not worse and putting all the blame on the OW. That is just so archaic.

 

Hundreds of years ago it was believed that a woman's essence was in her body. Under this line of thinking a woman had some very evil powers; even worse, a man's arousal could be blamed on said powers. It was all the woman's fault and many times she was excommunicated, imprisoned, or even killed. This kind of thinking shouldn't exist anymore. We've come too far in our intellectual evolution.

 

And I don't think it's too much to ask someone to think things through during stressful times hence the phrase grace under pressure.

[JustJoe]

Well we can get into the whole conversation of IQ versus EQ but I don't want to go to far off the path of this thread and its subject. Sure she is allowed to go out of her mind, depending on the 'crime'. In this case it was evidence of phone calls. And she believes that's all it ever was.

 

Given that background information one would find it unusual for a W to become desperate and not in their right mind (although I might agree with your other adjectives) because of the betrayal (phone calls) that had been bestowed upon them. I agree with you that she is allowed to be scared, hurt, and confused.

 

The part I find unintelligent is standing behind her man when he is just as guilty if not worse and putting all the blame on the OW. That is just so archaic.

 

Hundreds of years ago it was believed that a woman's essence was in her body. Under this line of thinking a woman had some very evil powers; even worse, a man's arousal could be blamed on said powers. It was all the woman's fault and many times she was excommunicated, imprisoned, or even killed. This kind of thinking shouldn't exist anymore. We've come too far in our intellectual evolution.

 

And I don't think it's too much to ask someone to think things through during stressful times hence the phrase grace under pressure.

I agree with Ms. White Flower about this. For a person to accept the cheaters slant on an affair IS unintelligent, it seems to me.

[jennie-jennie]

I posted something earlier that has been removed for being disrespectful. For that I'm sorry.

 

On a related note I do get upset when I see some posters who post terrible things about people who are not posters on this list. Examples of this are when people post what a terrible person (an OW, a BW, an AP, a MM) of another person must be. [in other words not their own OW, MM, BW etc but another person's]

 

Eg "your H is a ***" or "his wife is a ***" or "your AP is a ***"

 

It seems to me that the only purpose of some of these types of posts is to make another poster feel bad about themselves, for being in a relationship with such a terrible person, or even in a relationship with someone who is in a relationship with such a person.

 

One example of this would be the very common epithets here on LS for the WS of "liar", "cheater", "manipulator" and all kinds of other nasty words. Those of us who know our MP to be a good person although he/she obviously is acting bad in relation to his/her spouse while in the affair, prefer not to have him/her defined solely by these actions.

[JustJoe]

Excuse me, but why is calling a cheater bad if they are cheating? You call a doctor , a doctor, you call a boxer, a boxer. In a relationship sense, if a person is cheating, then they are a cheater. They may be great people in other areas, but in the married sense, they're not. This is just my opiinion.

[pureinheart]

I checked out tbones thread - he's not conflicted .. he wants both ... he just can't have it .. that's not conflict .. that's reality !!! His pain is because he likes none of the choices - but again, that's the reality of choices ... this is not deep mind stuff .. this is basic reality of any choice.

 

Also .. I'm beginning to have an uneasy feeling about this idea of diminishing the MM/MW's responsibility by ascribing a third party behaviour to them .. (eg splitting, not yet had their teenage rebellion etc etc) ...

 

My issue is that all of these things indicate that the MM/MW is not "entirerly of sound mind" .. and so my question is why would one choose to have a relationship with someone who is not of sound mind?

 

At best .. if one is claiming that they are incapable of full cogniscent operation then one should also be willing to admit that one should not treat them as an adult and should simply take them to a doctor.

 

Trying to mould someone who you know is deficient in mental development could itself be interpreted as a form of abuse ...

 

I'm not getting at you .. but do you see where I am coming from ...

 

The defence that they are not "whole" in some way means that one should not be treating them as whole .. ... you can't be their healer if you have an ulterior motive/interest ... do you see my point? If you claim they are excused their behaviour because they are not fully functioning then surely it is wrong for another adult who IS fully functioning to take advantage of that ...

 

I'm not fully formed on these thoughts, as I said it's just a growing uneasiness with this line of argument .....

 

Perhaps it's best to give an analogy .. children are not fully developed/aware so therefore one's job as a parent is to protect them somewhat from adult influences that they do not have the skills and experience to cope with ...

 

If, as seems to be the suggestion, these MM/MW are defined as not being fully developed then again they need to be protected from influences (such as additional relationships) until they have developed .. and how can you protect them when you want them in a relationship with you???

 

Isn't it like seeing a shrink who has ulterior motives on you ....

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris...I think you both make sense. Possibly there are different degrees of this disability?

 

What I have in bold has always been of great curiosity in the sense of the definition. I have had points in my life where my thinking has been sound, yet that would change and make small and large mistakes...at times it would throw my thinking completely off.

 

What is a sound mind? Can we keep it? If so how do I keep it and not get thrown into wayward thinking that creates mistakes....as it all originates in the mind.

 

Dysfunctional is a nice word to describe my life and the way I grew up, yet in the most important way (IMO), was victorious in breaking the generational garbage.

 

I have been exposed to so much that I don't even know who I am, and possibly never did....I can relate to about 75% of the people in all different stages of development, backgrounds etc. as most were learned experiences....

 

Chris, this may sound extremely weird, although I really feel 19yrs old...even physically the doctors tell me I am...I've had a life over there, but I am here...it's difficult to describe. In the past couple of years the stress has caused fatigue, but that will go away and there will be restoration/rejuvination once again.

 

It has always been so difficult for me to be "prim and proper"...I like to build forts and make mud pies...you know? I like to have fun and go to concerts and freak out, yet at the same time can have the grace and poise needed for certain occasions...

 

Sorry for this tangent Chris, only God knows why I have communicated this in this way...what do you make of it?

[pureinheart]

One example of this would be the very common epithets here on LS for the WS of "liar", "cheater", "manipulator" and all kinds of other nasty words. Those of us who know our MP to be a good person although he/she obviously is acting bad in relation to his/her spouse while in the affair, prefer not to have him/her defined solely by these actions.

 

Yes...being the firey person I am have done some name calling in my own situation, and I appreciate others for allowing me that vent. It is important for my growth to tone down the name calling concerning my own matters and have.

 

An A is only part of a very big picture.

[greengoddess]

MM's W has every right to be angry at her H for betraying her. She has every right to call him names and to punish him any way she sees fit. But to bury her head in the sand, believe his lies, and make the OW the only bad person in all of it is just wrong in my eyes. And trying to convince her H on this when he knows the truth just makes her look more like a fool IMHO.

 

LOL come on white flower. You are being such a hypocrit. You are calling her a fool for believing his lies??? What about him for lying? You seem to think it's just fine that you two daily lie to her. Obviously she is not burying her head in the sand or she would not follow him. She wants the truth and he lies and lies and lies. Tell him to grow a set and TELL HER. Why are you happy to continue to sneak around helping to lie to her?

 

He must put on quite the loving act with her at home for her to trust his lies.

[greengoddess]

I agree with Ms. White Flower about this. For a person to accept the cheaters slant on an affair IS unintelligent, it seems to me.

 

I sooo totally agree. The wife doesn't know it's the cheaters slant. It is the slant of her husband over a woman she doesn't know. To the ow she knows he's cheating and lying daily but she believes his every word. Odd that.

[jennie-jennie]

Hi Chris...I think you both make sense. Possibly there are different degrees of this disability?

 

What I have in bold has always been of great curiosity in the sense of the definition. I have had points in my life where my thinking has been sound, yet that would change and make small and large mistakes...at times it would throw my thinking completely off.

 

What is a sound mind? Can we keep it? If so how do I keep it and not get thrown into wayward thinking that creates mistakes....as it all originates in the mind.

 

Dysfunctional is a nice word to describe my life and the way I grew up, yet in the most important way (IMO), was victorious in breaking the generational garbage.

 

I have been exposed to so much that I don't even know who I am, and possibly never did....I can relate to about 75% of the people in all different stages of development, backgrounds etc. as most were learned experiences....

 

Chris, this may sound extremely weird, although I really feel 19yrs old...even physically the doctors tell me I am...I've had a life over there, but I am here...it's difficult to describe. In the past couple of years the stress has caused fatigue, but that will go away and there will be restoration/rejuvination once again.

 

It has always been so difficult for me to be "prim and proper"...I like to build forts and make mud pies...you know? I like to have fun and go to concerts and freak out, yet at the same time can have the grace and poise needed for certain occasions...

 

Sorry for this tangent Chris, only God knows why I have communicated this in this way...what do you make of it?

 

There was a saying I heard when I was a member of Al-Anon. It went something like this: "Shame on your parents for what they did to you when you were a child, shame on you for not doing anything about it now."

 

That is how I look at dysfunctionality and that is why I try to understand what lies behind the WS' behaviour. I believe that if we can better understand our actions, then we have more of a chance to do something about it. Removing the sensation of guilt and instead showing compassion for ourselves and others that there might be more to it than just meets the eye makes it easier to deal with this so called "bad" behavior.

 

That is responsibility to me - to do something today about the issues you have. It might take time, but it is worth it.

Edited March 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[donnamaybe]

If you check throughout my two and a half years of postings you'll find I always stated she was a nice gal. Many on this thread continue to post that I am being the arrogant one when they miss the entire point. It was she who said nasty things about me without having known me.

 

Not so long ago in this thread, she was "small and ignorant" in your own words.

 

But the funny thing is, you claim her H never says a bad thing about you to her. How in the WORLD do you know that?

[White Flower]

LOL come on white flower. You are being such a hypocrit. You are calling her a fool for believing his lies??? What about him for lying? You seem to think it's just fine that you two daily lie to her. Obviously she is not burying her head in the sand or she would not follow him. She wants the truth and he lies and lies and lies. Tell him to grow a set and TELL HER. Why are you happy to continue to sneak around helping to lie to her?

 

He must put on quite the loving act with her at home for her to trust his lies.

I know what is going on at home and that causes me to feel sorry for her.

 

greengoddess, do I really have to point out that MM is a liar? Come on, I already said it so saying it again would be redundant. And the bolded part just cracks me up! She follows him to events she would never go to before (that I would not go to either) so she finds nothing out of order. Perhaps going to other events that might cause her to lift a finger would be more productive in finding answers but she doesn't. If she really wanted to know the truth, she would call me. But I'm too much of a @#% for her to believe in, lol. Oh well.

 

If you know what it is like being thrown under the bus then stick around. If not you really aren't relevent to the thread.

[greengoddess]

I know what is going on at home and that causes me to feel sorry for her.

 

greengoddess, do I really have to point out that MM is a liar? Come on, I already said it so saying it again would be redundant. And the bolded part just cracks me up! She follows him to events she would never go to before (that I would not go to either) so she finds nothing out of order. Perhaps going to other events that might cause her to lift a finger would be more productive in finding answers but she doesn't. If she really wanted to know the truth, she would call me. But I'm too much of a @#% for her to believe in, lol. Oh well.

 

If you know what it is like being thrown under the bus then stick around. If not you really aren't relevent to the thread.

:laugh:You do realize you are putting the blame on her, the victim of yours and his lies, that this affair continues. Would you like her to know the truth? Why don't you call her? You sound suprisingly angry with her for her not getting to the truth. Why is that?

[NoIDidn't]

I agree with Ms. White Flower about this. For a person to accept the cheaters slant on an affair IS unintelligent, it seems to me.

 

Interesting that you state this, when it is White Flower that is here "standing by her man" in believing all that this man is claiming that his W is saying.

[White Flower]

Not so long ago in this thread, she was "small and ignorant" in your own words.

 

But the funny thing is, you claim her H never says a bad thing about you to her. How in the WORLD do you know that?

I said that actions like hers were small and ignorant because BW like her tend to believe what they want rather than being bigger than that and digging for the truth including getting it straight from the source. It is just easier I suppose to believe in the lying H who minimizes a full blown A to just a few phone calls even when you have years of calls on the bill. This signifies a real desire to believe in someone rather than 'manning up' and looking at the truth.

 

It reminds me of the flock who believe their pastor and refuse to check his word against the Bible. Pretty soon they're all drinking Cyanide.

 

I never claimed that he didn't say anything bad about me; however, I do believe he wouldn't. There are things that I know that I can't say just yet but if you're really interested stay tuned.