JustJoe Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Very interesting and I can agree with almost all of it. The only exception being that, IMO, the MM is allowing the OW to treat his wife poorly as soon as she (the OW) knowing engages in the affair. Let me explain. I know that may OW believe that they don't owe the BW anything since they (the OW) didn't break any vows, I'm cool with that. However the MM does owe his wife what he promised in those vows. In allowing the affair to happen, the MM is allowing the OW to treat his wife in a demeanig fashion. When it comes to how the BW treats the OW, she (the BW) owes the OW the same, nothing. If the MM didn't protect his wife from the pain that the affair could cause her, how can you expect him to protect the OW?This is really, really good. It sums up my situation almost perfectly. The woman I was involved with, was a cheater, so how could I expect her to be honest with me, who she f**ks, if she isn't honest with her husband, who she married. I'm glad I came here!! Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 If the MM didn't protect his wife from the pain that the affair could cause her, how can you expect him to protect the OW? This is the crux about the OP feeling thrown under the bus. They think the MP should protect them from the righteous anger of their betrayed spouse. They think they should be insulated like the A was. But not so. So anything that the MP does to protect and maintain their marriage will be seen as throwing them under the bus. It is at this point that the demands for the same respect shown to the BS start getting made. And anything less, to some, is seen as being thrown under the bus on the part of the MP. Why should the MP protect the OP from the BS? Seems the OP is fine with the BSs feelings being disrespected by this protection, but not with their feelings being hurt by lack of it. Since when are the OP and the BS on the same footing? In my mind, they are not. If the OP maintains that they owe nothing to the BS, they are not on the same footing and can't demand more than what they are willing to give. Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Somebody please tell me what all of these initials stand for? Op , I get that means "other person", but the WS, BP, , I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Somebody please tell me what all of these initials stand for? Op , I get that means "other person", but the WS, BP, , I don't know. Sorry Joe. OP = Other person, in this context, but sometimes it means Original poster. WS = wayward spouse, the cheater BP = betrayed person, usually spouse OW = other woman OM = other man CS = cheating spouse A = affair AP = affair partner MP = married person I think this covers most used already in this thread. Hope it helps. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Why should the MP protect the OP from the BS? Seems the OP is fine with the BSs feelings being disrespected by this protection, but not with their feelings being hurt by lack of it. Since when are the OP and the BS on the same footing? In my mind, they are not. If the OP maintains that they owe nothing to the BS, they are not on the same footing and can't demand more than what they are willing to give. Right! I have asked this many times on this board and I never get an answer. Why is the BW held to a higher level of consideration for others than the OW or the MM? Maybe there is no answer (or excuse). Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Sorry Joe. OP = Other person, in this context, but sometimes it means Original poster. WS = wayward spouse, the cheater BP = betrayed person, usually spouse OW = other woman OM = other man CS = cheating spouse A = affair AP = affair partner MP = married person I think this covers most used already in this thread. Hope it helps. IMO - In my opinion LMAO - Laughing my a** off (I don't think this has been used on this thread yet) Link to post Share on other sites
MizFit Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Very interesting and I can agree with almost all of it. The only exception being that, IMO, the MM is allowing the OW to treat his wife poorly as soon as she (the OW) knowing engages in the affair. Let me explain. I know that may OW believe that they don't owe the BW anything since they (the OW) didn't break any vows, I'm cool with that. However the MM does owe his wife what he promised in those vows. In allowing the affair to happen, the MM is allowing the OW to treat his wife in a demeanig fashion. When it comes to how the BW treats the OW, she (the BW) owes the OW the same, nothing. If the MM didn't protect his wife from the pain that the affair could cause her, how can you expect him to protect the OW? I absolutely agree with you...the W is put into a position much pain will come from...so is the OW when DDay rolls along and the situations have almost virtually reversed. If the H has treated the W in a specific way during the A then he should treat the OW in the same way to the W after DDay. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Right! I have asked this many times on this board and I never get an answer. Why is the BW held to a higher level of consideration for others than the OW or the MM? Maybe there is no answer (or excuse). The MM usually spends so much time lying about her true character that the OW generally feels like the BW has to prove herself to be a worthy human being. But it matters not, really. Because even when the BW behaves with dignity and doesn't rail against the OW, the OW then reports that the BW is in denial or has her head in the sand. The BW can't win, and shouldn't bother trying to behave up to others standards of behavior that they have reserved for only her. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I absolutely agree with you...the W is put into a position much pain will come from...so is the OW when DDay rolls along and the situations have almost virtually reversed. If the H has treated the W in a specific way during the A then he should treat the OW in the same way to the W after DDay. Right and a MM who is having an affair is obviously treating is wife with disrespect, so the OW shouldn't be surprise when she is treated the same. But, the rolls are not exactly reversed. In the case of the OW, she knows that the affair is happening. The BW, in most cases, does not. The OW chooses, in most cases, to be part of the triangle when the BW, in most cases does not get the chance to make that choice. The OW has the chance to avoid the pain entirely. Not at all the same, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 The MM usually spends so much time lying about her true character that the OW generally feels like the BW has to prove herself to be a worthy human being. But it matters not, really. Because even when the BW behaves with dignity and doesn't rail against the OW, the OW then reports that the BW is in denial or has her head in the sand. The BW can't win, and shouldn't bother trying to behave up to others standards of behavior that they have reserved for only her. I'm fine with being held to a higher standard. It's the expectation that I don't understand. If an OW is comfortable saying that they don''t owe any consideration to the wife, then they should be just fine with however the BW decides to act. JMO. Link to post Share on other sites
MizFit Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Right! I have asked this many times on this board and I never get an answer. Why is the BW held to a higher level of consideration for others than the OW or the MM? Maybe there is no answer (or excuse). They shouldn't be held to a higher level...she should be held at the same level. I'll cite my case...first DDay W found out and sent me an email. It contained everything it should have...I deleted it and thought, fair enough. The only thing I countered was this...she said she was going to come to my house and confront me. I immediately called MM and told him this. I told him she was welcome to contact me and I'd be happy to meet her somewhere and talk to her, but I wasn't going to be party to a confrontation. I expected him to control the situation enough to make sure that didn't happen. Second DDay she rang me and started calling me all sorts. He was in the background simply stating to her that he wouldn't allow her to speak to me that way. I rang off and sent her a text telling her that I would be more than happy to meet her and answer any questions, but I wasn't going to get into a slagging match with her. If my MM had allowed her to berate me or to physically confront me then I would have been thrown under the bus. If he had lied to her about his feelings for me and our relationship I would have been thrown under the bus. We had our conversations and email exchanges...all curt and cold, but done properly. The BS is entitled to every ounce of rage and anger and fear and insecurity as they feel...it's where it's aimed that is my concern. Keep in mind...I was a BS as well so my opinion is not that of someone with only the experience of being an OW. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 WF curious and I may be way off base. Are you by chance his counsellor? LOL, no, but he might feel like I am. He can tell me anything and like a counselor, I suppose, I will not judge him. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 They shouldn't be held to a higher level...she should be held at the same level. I'll cite my case...first DDay W found out and sent me an email. It contained everything it should have...I deleted it and thought, fair enough. The only thing I countered was this...she said she was going to come to my house and confront me. I immediately called MM and told him this. I told him she was welcome to contact me and I'd be happy to meet her somewhere and talk to her, but I wasn't going to be party to a confrontation. I expected him to control the situation enough to make sure that didn't happen. Second DDay she rang me and started calling me all sorts. He was in the background simply stating to her that he wouldn't allow her to speak to me that way. I rang off and sent her a text telling her that I would be more than happy to meet her and answer any questions, but I wasn't going to get into a slagging match with her. If my MM had allowed her to berate me or to physically confront me then I would have been thrown under the bus. If he had lied to her about his feelings for me and our relationship I would have been thrown under the bus. We had our conversations and email exchanges...all curt and cold, but done properly. The BS is entitled to every ounce of rage and anger and fear and insecurity as they feel...it's where it's aimed that is my concern. Keep in mind...I was a BS as well so my opinion is not that of someone with only the experience of being an OW. Well that all sounds like it went down the way you felt it should have. I have never contacted my H's OW because my issue was with him. I blamed him 100% and he took 100% of the blame. She was not my concern. However, in some cases, the whole "bus" thing should almost be expected. If the MM knows that the OW doesn't care about his BW, then how can you expect him to stop his wife from saying or doing something that will cause pain to the OW (if that is what the BW wants to do)? The MM is aware that the OW knows how much he has hurt his wife, he isn't treating the OW any different? Equal right? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Excuse me, but why is calling a cheater bad if they are cheating? You call a doctor , a doctor, you call a boxer, a boxer. In a relationship sense, if a person is cheating, then they are a cheater. They may be great people in other areas, but in the married sense, they're not. This is just my opiinion. Forgive me for quoting you to make a point. No one is perfect, and I totally see what you are saying, although I am not understanding why there is so much emphasis put on A's. For instance, if you have ever lied, then this makes you a liar. If you have ever stolen anything then you are a thief. Why is it so easy to judge others and their actions, when all of us are technically guilty also? Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Forgive me for quoting you to make a point. No one is perfect, and I totally see what you are saying, although I am not understanding why there is so much emphasis put on A's. For instance, if you have ever lied, then this makes you a liar. If you have ever stolen anything then you are a thief. Why is it so easy to judge others and their actions, when all of us are technically guilty also? I know this isn't to me, but I would like to answer. I will have to admit that when I have told a lie, even a white lie, at that time I was a liar. When a MM is in the midst of cheating, he is a cheater. Unless you have a better word for it. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 So because I took the time to post a response to you I've created a lot of energy and took a lot of time to do so? Funny. Now I'm being blamed for being thoughful in my response, and in an insulting way at all. You are just as wrong to denigrate a woman you don't know. Like I said, everything you post about her, a woman that you don't know, applies to you. Everything. I'll refrain from responding to you further in this thread as well, as I know the posters that disagree with me and agree with you will likely be hitting that infamous "Alert Us" button right about now.... I'm not blaming you for anything but I did feel you went way off course for a while there. And I was not trying to insult you so I'm sorry if you feel that way. If BW was Black or Chinese and I called her so would you have a problem with that? I know what she tried to do and I thought it was a pathetic act even if I don't think she is a pathetic person. Have I been pathetic before? Sure I have and at least I can admit it. I don't say much about other people that I have a problem saying about myself. But relevant to this thread I found her behavior on D-day and the weeks after distasteful. Why it needs to be rehashed I just don't know. For the record MM rarely if ever says anything bad about her and that is how I know the same is held true for me. It would make him look stupid to denigrate me as so many here would love to believe because that would make himself look bad. Mizfit made some excellent points in her post and I found it most suitable to my situation. FWIW NID you once stated that you knew your serial cheating father couldn't go on forever in life the way it was. He needed to learn, grow, and overcome. Many here can't seem to fathom a MM overcoming anything except an A but in reality some have other issues to overcome. When I'm ready, I'll start my own thread on it. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I know this isn't to me, but I would like to answer. I will have to admit that when I have told a lie, even a white lie, at that time I was a liar. When a MM is in the midst of cheating, he is a cheater. Unless you have a better word for it. Yes, most definitely...and LOL...it is to you since you replied ...you are so gracious HN. Just using JustJoe's quote to make a point that I have not known how to word correctly in the past. Is this just due to this particular forum, being the OM/OW or are A's considered to be the worst thing to mankind? Or the worst possible situation that an individual can face? Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Forgive me for quoting you to make a point. No one is perfect, and I totally see what you are saying, although I am not understanding why there is so much emphasis put on A's. For instance, if you have ever lied, then this makes you a liar. If you have ever stolen anything then you are a thief. Why is it so easy to judge others and their actions, when all of us are technically guilty also? Calling a person, any person by a label does not pass judgement. It states a fact. Yes, I am a liar and an abuser. I am no longer active in those matters but I am still capable of repeating the behavior if I don't' make a conscious choice to steer clear of the situations, thought patterns and habits that lead me in that direction. I was wrong and have no trouble with anyone calling me on it, as many have here and the real world. To say someone is a cheater as the continue in the behavior that even you admit is wrong isn't judgement. It is a fact that has been stated openly. Some people call AP cheaters, others called them confused, thorn, manipulated or in JJ's words "split". They are all labels used to describe what we each see in the person involved in an A, particularly the WS. The emphasis is put on A's because we are either posting in the OW/OM, infidelity or marriage forums. The context of which the behavior what ever behavior is being discussed dictates the feelings and emotions behind the labels. If you go to a drug abuse forum I am sure you will get terms like, junkie, meth head or crack ho. Go to a political forum and you get God knows what. I have seen the terms, demonazi, neo-cons and left wingers. Go to a religious forum and you get fanatics, bible thumpers, sinners and so on. If labels equaled judgement(punishment) then we would all have some one's foot up our butt waiting for them to turn counter clockwise and pull. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Yes, most definitely...and LOL...it is to you since you replied ...you are so gracious HN. Just using JustJoe's quote to make a point that I have not known how to word correctly in the past. Is this just due to this particular forum, being the OM/OW or are A's considered to be the worst thing to mankind? Or the worst possible situation that an individual can face? I think because affairs are what is discussed in this forum, that many be the implication. If we were discussing murder or child rape, then I'm sure most would agree affairs pale in comparison. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I merely state that a BW wife is wrong to denigrate a woman she doesn't even know If the BW is aware of an OW and the OW knows the man she is having sex with is already married....then I think the BW knows the OW enough. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Well that all sounds like it went down the way you felt it should have. I have never contacted my H's OW because my issue was with him. I blamed him 100% and he took 100% of the blame. She was not my concern. However, in some cases, the whole "bus" thing should almost be expected. If the MM knows that the OW doesn't care about his BW, then how can you expect him to stop his wife from saying or doing something that will cause pain to the OW (if that is what the BW wants to do)? The MM is aware that the OW knows how much he has hurt his wife, he isn't treating the OW any different? Equal right? I know your comment and subsequent question was directed at Mizfit but since this subject began with me I'd like to make a comment on it. I never said BW comments hurt me or caused me pain. It was her tactic of denigrating the OW (it doesn't matter that it was me this time) that I thought was pointless and made her look silly to her H. H knows what he knows and to try to make the OW look like the seductress when he did the pursuing is irrelevent to him at this point. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 If the BW is aware of an OW and the OW knows the man she is having sex with is already married....then I think the BW knows the OW enough. And in that case, why would it be wrong for the BW to speak poorly about the OW. I would think most people would expect a BW to have some negative words to say about the other woman her H is having sex with. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 The part I find unintelligent is standing behind her man when he is just as guilty if not worse and putting all the blame on the OW. That is just so archaic. archaic yes, unintelligent....no. again, people are desperate to save their families in situations like this. It certainly isn't for me, and I won't stay with a cheater...I'll let the other person have their worthless butt. But I understand the desperation that comes from being f####d over by two other people. and yes, I agree, the cheating spouse is the most to blame. And I don't think it's too much to ask someone to think things through during stressful times hence the phrase grace under pressure. of course YOU don't think its too much to ask....you weren't the one being effed over, yet one of the parties doing the effing. thats like stabbing someone with a knife, then saying, "don't hate me....overcome this temporary painful time in your life" Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I know your comment and subsequent question was directed at Mizfit but since this subject began with me I'd like to make a comment on it. I never said BW comments hurt me or caused me pain. It was her tactic of denigrating the OW (it doesn't matter that it was me this time) that I thought was pointless and made her look silly to her H. H knows what he knows and to try to make the OW look like the seductress when he did the pursuing is irrelevent to him at this point. Well, whatever her tactics are, she is still married to him. However "silly" she may look to her H, he still stays married to her. Not sure why what she says or how she says it matters to you. But, again, I wish you luck with it all. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 And in that case, why would it be wrong for the BW to speak poorly about the OW. I would think most people would expect a BW to have some negative words to say about the other woman her H is having sex with. If I were to ever mess around knowingly with someone elses wife, I'd expect, and deserve, a good punch in the face. Link to post Share on other sites
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