"Thrown under the bus"

[silverplanets]

My family of origin is a dysfunctional family, my MM's family of origin is a dysfunctional family. My family with my exSO was/is a dysfunctional family, I believe so is my MM's present family. "Alike children play best".

 

I am not my MM's healer or therapist, I am his equal, I too am a human being in progress. As I have stated earlier, he helped me heal from my earlier abusive relationship. Perhaps through our relationship he can deal with some of his issues in life.

 

I believe my MM is a good man. Finding an explanation of why he still is having an affair instead of getting a divorce helps me. And it offers a chance to do something about it: therapy.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of tbone. He seems to be a classic example of the Split Self if you ask me. Silverplanets, why are you so suddenly into this cakeeater stuff? That is making me uneasy.

 

Thanks for the reply Jennie .... I appreciate it and the honesty.

 

I don't want to get distracted on the tbone thread but I just don't see how he can be splitting. He may be using Minimisation and a degree of Compartmentalisation on a day to day basis but if he was splitting he couldn't post what he did. Splitting by definition doesn't allow one to see the "grey" areas between the splits ... tbone is fully aware of the grey areas ... he is able to discuss and relate to both aspects in the same post and is fully aware and comfortable with their opposite natures. He has no split between the A and being married .. he is processing both at the same time and able to discuss both at the same time, and look at all the grey areas of each.

 

I think the main thrust of my question was not so much the adopter of a cake eater view but more an exploration of the intelectualisaiton of the MP's behaviour. As I said i'm not fully thought through it yet but, since it is normally the OW/OM who does this, then it's probably more a comment on that side if the triangle than the MP.

 

It seems to me that the basic "categories" applied to the MP by externals (and I include the OW/OM as an external) are:

 

a) they are a repeat cake eater/serial affair addict

b) they are a one off repeat cake eater

c) a situation has unfortunatley arisen that leaves them in love with two people

 

I believe I am expanding c) in my oriignal post ... when c) is presented as the scenario then there seem to be three basic classes of explaination offered for their inability to choose:

 

1) that although the situation has arisen by chance they are now actively trying to keep both options going

2) that they are fully mentally operational but unable to make a descision

3) that they are not fully mentally operational (reasons offered are splitting, affair fog, etc etc) and therefore unable to make a descision

 

 

My obervation mostly relates to our (and I include me in that for my previous position) actions as the OP if we belive any of these three to be true.

 

And I think I was getting to the point that either

a) we think they are fully mentally operational to make a descision - in which case the fact that they aren't tells us that they are making a thought out descision not to .... so as the OP we should accept that descision

b) we think they are not fully mentally operational - in which case we (as the OP) are trying to influence them to an end state that we want (ie them to be with us) when we KNOW that they are bereft of their normal mental resources to make such a descision

 

If we know that by seeing us and staying involved in their lives it's going to keep that mental instablity going and not help them heal, but we do it because we have a hope that it will "go our way" .. are we not, as I said, guilty of taking advantage of them???

 

To clarify Jennie, I am in now way throwing this one at you or your MM ... I don't doubt for one minute that he is a decent person and my comments above are not comments on you/him but just,as I said, an increasing unease that if one accepts the arguments explainig their behaviour then it seems to me to demand that we question our behaviour as the AP if we are maintaining any contact when we believe them not to be in full posesson of their mental facilities (whether temporary or permenant).

 

I know with my MW I ended up feeling for long stretches like an on-tap therapist .. and I had to admit to myself in the end that if so I was a therapist with an ulterior motive ... and that as long as I stayed in the picture she always had something else to focus on rather than working through her own issues - individual or married.

 

Hope that makes some kind of sense :)

 

Chris

[Snowflower]

I don't think the BS in my case should be kind and gracious to me. I don't know her and I don't care to know her. She sought me out after the second DDay and asked me questions I was happy to answer. I didn't expect to be her friend, but I didn't expect her to be rude and start a huge confrontation any more than I would have expected the same from myself. I just don't think either of them should be expected to act any differently than the other. I actually give a bit more to the BS than to the OW.

 

Thank you for your honesty, Mizfit. I wasn't directing my post at you but I appreciate what you have written.

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks for the reply Jennie .... I appreciate it and the honesty.

 

I don't want to get distracted on the tbone thread but I just don't see how he can be splitting. He may be using Minimisation and a degree of Compartmentalisation on a day to day basis but if he was splitting he couldn't post what he did. Splitting by definition doesn't allow one to see the "grey" areas between the splits ... tbone is fully aware of the grey areas ... he is able to discuss and relate to both aspects in the same post and is fully aware and comfortable with their opposite natures. He has no split between the A and being married .. he is processing both at the same time and able to discuss both at the same time, and look at all the grey areas of each.

 

I think the main thrust of my question was not so much the adopter of a cake eater view but more an exploration of the intelectualisaiton of the MP's behaviour. As I said i'm not fully thought through it yet but, since it is normally the OW/OM who does this, then it's probably more a comment on that side if the triangle than the MP.

 

It seems to me that the basic "categories" applied to the MP by externals (and I include the OW/OM as an external) are:

 

a) they are a repeat cake eater/serial affair addict

b) they are a one off repeat cake eater

c) a situation has unfortunatley arisen that leaves them in love with two people

 

I believe I am expanding c) in my oriignal post ... when c) is presented as the scenario then there seem to be three basic classes of explaination offered for their inability to choose:

 

1) that although the situation has arisen by chance they are now actively trying to keep both options going

2) that they are fully mentally operational but unable to make a descision

3) that they are not fully mentally operational (reasons offered are splitting, affair fog, etc etc) and therefore unable to make a descision

 

 

My obervation mostly relates to our (and I include me in that for my previous position) actions as the OP if we belive any of these three to be true.

 

And I think I was getting to the point that either

a) we think they are fully mentally operational to make a descision - in which case the fact that they aren't tells us that they are making a thought out descision not to .... so as the OP we should accept that descision

b) we think they are not fully mentally operational - in which case we (as the OP) are trying to influence them to an end state that we want (ie them to be with us) when we KNOW that they are bereft of their normal mental resources to make such a descision

 

If we know that by seeing us and staying involved in their lives it's going to keep that mental instablity going and not help them heal, but we do it because we have a hope that it will "go our way" .. are we not, as I said, guilty of taking advantage of them???

 

To clarify Jennie, I am in now way throwing this one at you or your MM ... I don't doubt for one minute that he is a decent person and my comments above are not comments on you/him but just,as I said, an increasing unease that if one accepts the arguments explainig their behaviour then it seems to me to demand that we question our behaviour as the AP if we are maintaining any contact when we believe them not to be in full posesson of their mental facilities (whether temporary or permenant).

 

I know with my MW I ended up feeling for long stretches like an on-tap therapist .. and I had to admit to myself in the end that if so I was a therapist with an ulterior motive ... and that as long as I stayed in the picture she always had something else to focus on rather than working through her own issues - individual or married.

 

Hope that makes some kind of sense :)

 

Chris

 

When I suggested AA to my alcoholic SO, was my motive then ulterior? Of course it was not only for his benefit if he would become sober, but for mine and our daughter's as well. Was I acting as a therapist when I became actively engaged in Al-Anon and learnt as much as possible about alcoholism and alcoholic marriages? No, I had a need to understand my own situation.

 

I am an intellectual woman. I like to understand my situation from as much a scientific, intellectual standpoint as possible. So when I have a personal problem I research and try to understand.

 

I don't perceive it as if you have read much about split self affairs. Perhaps you have only read what you find here on LS? If you want to, I can share some papers with you. Just PM me if that is the case.

 

What can I say, except that we are two adults who have chosen to have a relationship with each other. We learn things from every relationship we are in. Hopefully we come out wiser when/if the relationship ends. Nobody is taking advantage of anybody. We both want to be here, for now at least. The benefits are greater than the cons for both of us and have been so for years.

Edited March 6, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[RedDevil66]

Excuse me, but why is calling a cheater bad if they are cheating? You call a doctor , a doctor, you call a boxer, a boxer. In a relationship sense, if a person is cheating, then they are a cheater. They may be great people in other areas, but in the married sense, they're not. This is just my opiinion.

 

that is my opinion as well and have stated this many times here, but when one is living in a deep/sad denial of their actions, they label themselves terms they can live with

[2sure]

Something relevant.

 

My H, the narcissist serial cheater.

His old girlfriend from High school. 25 years ago.

Grew up in the same town, their families still know each other, etc.

Prior to our marriage he told me she would show up every few years, thinking she was still in love with him.

His family would give him a heads up when she was snooping around and they told me she was nuts, stalkerish, they felt sorry for her. Life just had not turned out well for her.

 

FF. I find out my H is serial cheating, go thru all of his communications.

She is in there, has been for months. He never told me.

She is professing love, wants to meet up.

She is confinding in him, she lost her kids in the last divorce, lost her job, did a stint in rehab.

They go to lunch a couple of times, he provides a shoulder.

From what I read, she blew him in his car once.

She is absolutely IN LOVE. Obsessive.

 

Meanwhile, he is forwarding her emails and proclomations to his best friend from high school. They laugh at her.

At dinners with his mom and siblings, her current circumstance are brought up with some pity but mostly mocking.

 

Prior to my discovering all of the cheating he is doing with other people, he for some reason stopped returning her emails and calls. Probably just got bored with the entertainment.

 

After D-Day. She calls ME (she has NO idea there was a D-Day) to alert me to the fact that he loves her. They have always been in love, he married me because she was then unavailable. She goes so far as to tell his family she is pregnant with his child. She is leaving horrible messages on my home answering machine which my daughter hears.

 

Should I send her the emails he wrote to his friend laughing at her, calling her a crazy pig? Should I show her the emails he sent to me referring to the lunch, the blow job?

 

No. Because if she is , like he states, some crazy pig....then what the hell does that make him??

 

I dont need to hurt this woman, even with the truth.

[Snowflower]

Prior to my discovering all of the cheating he is doing with other people, he for some reason stopped returning her emails and calls. Probably just got bored with the entertainment.

 

After D-Day. She calls ME (she has NO idea there was a D-Day) to alert me to the fact that he loves her. They have always been in love, he married me because she was then unavailable. She goes so far as to tell his family she is pregnant with his child. She is leaving horrible messages on my home answering machine which my daughter hears.

 

 

 

(((2Sure))) You have certainly been to h*ll and back with all this drama surrounding your H.

[2sure]

Truly, the woman is an inconvenience. But he brought it all on.

Its not as though he did not know from past experience that she was a nut job.

Worse, nuts or not...she is vulnerable. Worse yet...I really do not see her as harmless.

 

But the point is...she is also the victim here.

[JustJoe]

Miss 2sure, Did your own affairs, in any way, prepare you for your husband's? Were you more understanding? More forgiving? Were YOU ever"thrown under the bus"? I don't want to thread -jack, I'm just curious.

[2sure]

My own affairs with MM allowed me , to some extent, not take it personally. In that, I knew it wasnt my fault, I knew it meant nothing to him, I knew it wasnt the end of the world.

 

But those things just helped me cope. They didnt help me forgive him.

 

I was never thrown under the bus because to the best of my knowledge none of the men I knew got caught, at least not with me.

[JustJoe]

So, are you divorced? or Separated? I really don't want to get off topic, but I haven't been here long enough to private message, so I have to ask my questions on open forum. Sorry JJ. Were you ever in love with him?

[jennie-jennie]

So, are you divorced? or Separated? I really don't want to get off topic, but I haven't been here long enough to private message, so I have to ask my questions on open forum. Sorry JJ. Were you ever in love with him?

 

No worry, JustJoe, threadjacking never bothered me.

 

But may I ask you to call me Jennie, because there is already a JJ here.

[2sure]

Was I in love with my husband? Fully & Completely. I never so much as had interest to even look at another man since I met him and still do not. I would have moved heaven & earth for him. To me he was all that & more. Yes, I love him very much.

 

I am separating myself from him physically and emotionally. If he wants a divorce, I'll sign.

[GreenEyedLady]

I am an intellectual woman. I like to understand my situation from as much a scientific, intellectual standpoint as possible. So when I have a personal problem I research and try to understand.

 

I don't perceive it as if you have read much about split self affairs. Perhaps you have only read what you find here on LS? If you want to, I can share some papers with you. Just PM me if that is the case.

 

What can I say, except that we are two adults who have chosen to have a relationship with each other. We learn things from every relationship we are in. Hopefully we come out wiser when/if the relationship ends. Nobody is taking advantage of anybody. We both want to be here, for now at least. The benefits are greater than the cons for both of us and have been so for years.

 

With all due respect, I think you have a problem with your R on some level. Or you wouldn't be here asking questions and making excuses. Because when you bring up split self, dysfunctional families, that is an excuse just the same way that staying for the kids is an excuse.

 

If you were perfectly fine with your R you would be here saying this is my R and I don't care if you like it or not. You wouldn't be trying to "intellectually" argue ways to make it all right or better or not as bad.

 

I found it interesting that you said that why does a bad thing at the end of the R have to ruin everything you once had (paraphrasing from earlier in the thread)? Are you serious?! Of course it ruins everything, because the person who treated you badly showed just how little you meant to them. They betrayed you whether throwing you under the bus or discovering a d-day. The old R is GONE. Sometimes there can be a new one but that betrayal is always there. Knowing the one that you loved the most denied you, adds insult to injury.

 

I don't mean to bust your balls or anything, I just think you're not being entirely honest with yourself. And the worst thing you can do in this world of lies, is lie to the person who will never leave you, and that is you.

 

GEL

[JustJoe]

Miss Jennie or just Jennie? I have no way of knowing how old any of you Ladies are, so I'm trying to be polite. Actually, I should never have called you JJ, that was too familar. Sorry

[ladydesigner]

...why does a bad thing at the end of the R have to ruin everything you once had (paraphrasing from earlier in the thread)? Are you serious?! Of course it ruins everything, because the person who treated you badly showed just how little you meant to them. They betrayed you whether throwing you under the bus or discovering a d-day. The old R is GONE. Sometimes there can be a new one but that betrayal is always there. Knowing the one that you loved the most denied you, adds insult to injury.

 

Yes this about sums it up for me. If my XOM would have ended things in a manner that mirrored what we shared I wouldn't hate him so much now. I would still be sad we ended but I wouldn't be so bitter. It is how he ended and things that he said that make me feel bitter towards him. The fact that he told me his feelings for his girlfriend were much stronger than he thought...hmm I'm sure he felt that way all along and just strung me along because he knew he could...a**h**e

[jennie-jennie]

Miss Jennie or just Jennie? I have no way of knowing how old any of you Ladies are, so I'm trying to be polite. Actually, I should never have called you JJ, that was too familar. Sorry

 

Jennie is fine. I will be 51 in a couple of days. I was a teenager in the seventies when most young men had long hair. I have recently gotten in contact again with several of them and they are all bald or have their hair cut short! So may I ask how old you are?

[jennie-jennie]

So when I have a personal problem I research and try to understand.

 

With all due respect, I think you have a problem with your R on some level.

As you can see from my post above I agree with you that I do have a personal problem, and yes it is with my relationship being an extramarital one.

Or you wouldn't be here asking questions and making excuses. Because when you bring up split self, dysfunctional families, that is an excuse just the same way that staying for the kids is an excuse.

Here we will just have to agree to disagree, because what you feel is excuses is to me explanations and help me understand my world so I can find better ways of dealing with it.

If you were perfectly fine with your R you would be here saying this is my R and I don't care if you like it or not. You wouldn't be trying to "intellectually" argue ways to make it all right or better or not as bad.

I have never hid the fact that I would rather not be in an extramarital relationship. What makes it even more difficult to handle is that it is long distance, and it will continue to be long distance as long as it is an affair.

I found it interesting that you said that why does a bad thing at the end of the R have to ruin everything you once had (paraphrasing from earlier in the thread)? Are you serious?! Of course it ruins everything, because the person who treated you badly showed just how little you meant to them. They betrayed you whether throwing you under the bus or discovering a d-day. The old R is GONE. Sometimes there can be a new one but that betrayal is always there. Knowing the one that you loved the most denied you, adds insult to injury.

Yes, I am serious. JustJoe asked about my age, perhaps that is the reason, I have been through a lot, I have seen a lot, I have experienced a lot, I have been let down a lot by both men and other people. I treasure the good moments of my life and do not let the bad moments destroy them.

 

I was the one who ended my two prior major relationships. I believe my last exSO would be happy to complain about how our relationship ended and how he felt discarded. Does that mean I never loved him? Of course not! I loved him for decades and in a way I still do although I am not in love with him anymore.

 

By knowing who common it is that MM throw you under the bus, I do believe I will not take it as personally as I would have otherwise if it does happen to me. I will also know to wait it out because as we see on LS a lot of the MM get back to the OW after a while. Knowledge gives power.

 

I don't mean to bust your balls or anything, I just think you're not being entirely honest with yourself. And the worst thing you can do in this world of lies, is lie to the person who will never leave you, and that is you.

 

GEL

 

Sometimes I wonder if I am delusional holding more hope of a happy ending than is reasonable. But I am a pretty disillusioned woman, so I don't think that is a problem.

 

I am as honest as I am capable of being. I am the kind of person who will step back and look at myself and try to really see what is going on. Lesson learnt in Al-Anon to always check if there is something with yourself you need to reassess or improve.

 

I get the feeling that you are a bit younger than me. Is that the case?

Edited March 9, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Dexter Morgan]

Was I in love with my husband? Fully & Completely. I never so much as had interest to even look at another man since I met him and still do not. I would have moved heaven & earth for him. To me he was all that & more. Yes, I love him very much.

 

I am separating myself from him physically and emotionally. If he wants a divorce, I'll sign.

 

I was under the impression you had one affair. I take it you are a serial cheater because of your post above:

"I was never thrown under the bus because to the best of my knowledge none of the men I knew got caught"

 

Someone who was with more than one affair partner I don't believe can claim to love their spouse very much, let alone one affair partner.

[White Flower]

I was under the impression you had one affair. I take it you are a serial cheater because of your post above:

"I was never thrown under the bus because to the best of my knowledge none of the men I knew got caught"

 

Someone who was with more than one affair partner I don't believe can claim to love their spouse very much, let alone one affair partner.

I'm not sure you can quantify that but I will ask you to anyway.

 

Just because someone lived a lifestyle doesn't mean they wanted it that way throughout their life. I used to love embroidering, did it for years. I have pieces of embroidered artwork throughout my house but you wouldn't catch me near a needle and hoop to save my life now. I'm done with that phase and have moved on to something better. I'm sure 2sure loved her H deeply and may well have loved each and every one of her MM in the past for that matter.

[NoIDidn't]

... the worst thing you can do in this world of lies, is lie to the person who will never leave you, and that is you.

 

 

Great, and poignant point.

[2sure]

I was under the impression you had one affair. I take it you are a serial cheater because of your post above:

"I was never thrown under the bus because to the best of my knowledge none of the men I knew got caught"

 

Dexter - you forgot. Years ago before I remarried, yes there was a period when I dated Married Men. I was single.

 

Karma, fate, whatever you want to call it, eventually caught up with me when my H (who I have always been faithful to) serial cheated on me. The one good thing about this crisis, I suppose , is that Ive learned a lot about life, my place in it, relationships, love, respect, remorse, regret, and that Karma does have a sense of humor.

 

Someone who was with more than one affair partner I don't believe can claim to love their spouse very much, let alone one affair partner.

 

Cant say I know the answer to that.

[OWoman]

Someone who was with more than one affair partner I don't believe can claim to love their spouse very much, let alone one affair partner.

 

Cant say I know the answer to that.

 

I think there's a big difference between being the MP and having several (serial, or simultaneous) APs while M to your BS; and being an OW having As with MMs and then subsequently marrying and remaining "faithful" to your H.

 

In the first case, you're actively pursuing other love interests while M - and whether or not that undermines your love for your BS is a point for discussion, but I reckon the majority view here would be that multiple As doesn't exactly show much love for the BS.

 

In the second case, however, it can simply indicate a change of heart / lifestyle. A moving on from one kind of relating to another. And in my view, and from my experience, it's certainly possible to love a spouse very much, no matter how many previous partners one has had or what the circumstances of those Rs were.

[JustJoe]

Ms. Jennie, I'm 29. So would you think it disrespectful to just call you Jennie?......Dexter Morgan, IME love can be given to anything or anyone. One of the problems a lot of people have is confusing Love with integrity, even Cheaters are capable of love.

[JustJoe]

I think there's a big difference between being the MP and having several (serial, or simultaneous) APs while M to your BS; and being an OW having As with MMs and then subsequently marrying and remaining "faithful" to your H.

 

In the first case, you're actively pursuing other love interests while M - and whether or not that undermines your love for your BS is a point for discussion, but I reckon the majority view here would be that multiple As doesn't exactly show much love for the BS.

 

In the second case, however, it can simply indicate a change of heart / lifestyle. A moving on from one kind of relating to another. And in my view, and from my experience, it's certainly possible to love a spouse very much, no matter how many previous partners one has had or what the circumstances of those Rs were.

I agree with this post. Although unlikely, there are men and women in the adult entertainment industry, who have married , had families , ended their "porn", careers, and been completely faithful to their spouses. They changed their way of living and thinking. In the case of a WS with multiple partners, all she/he is changing is his/her underwear.

[jennie-jennie]

Ms. Jennie, I'm 29. So would you think it disrespectful to just call you Jennie?......Dexter Morgan, IME love can be given to anything or anyone. One of the problems a lot of people have is confusing Love with integrity, even Cheaters are capable of love.

 

No, I am fine with that. Everyone else does. You are sweet to be so polite. From reading your posts, you seem to be a very insightful young man.