"Thrown under the bus"

[wheelwright]

I think we can agree Myrtle. It is only a cowardly act if he didn't want to do it but felt forced. It can also be said that he is cowardly for not leaving his W when he would rather do so. It is a measure of his fear (lack of agency) against that of his preferred choice under sudden pressure.

 

But that pressure is really the pressure he puts himself under.

 

Really it is a choice in responding to various pressures. It is more cowardly to not make a choice, rather than to make one you have doubts about.

 

But I don't know if I agree with myself already!

 

I find this topic confusing, so I'll revert to personal experience of cowardice. It is cowardly to abandon someone to a bad fate if we know we shouldn't and fear reprisals (I have often come out of this test well). It is also cowardly to not do what we know is right for ourselves because we fear reprisals (I find this harder).

 

But what if the first becomes conflicted with the second? What if you are a coward whatever the choice? What if you must either abandon when you feel it is wrong, or abandon yourself (what you feel is right for yourself without the other pressure)? Then the altruistic choice, so often made by MAPs is surely right? So the non-cowardly WS makes the choice based on what they feel to be right rather than on fear of reprisals (even though those reprisals are there either way).

 

I think the WSs put themselves in an impasse of cowardice from the start. It is not fear in the end which leads these decisions, but love. Because we don't fear so much when love is the deciding factor. Any lack of agency emerges from this conflict, and ultimately the MM who goes back to his (non-abusive) W knocks the socks off a MM who will abandon his family for a more selfish love. He chooses the better way to be a coward.

 

And that quite uplifting version of thrown under a bus actually makes me feel (temporarily I'm sure) better.

 

Not sure what this means for fence-sitters, and feel a whole new area of cowardice/bravery is open to interpretation there.

Edited March 15, 2010 by wheelwright
edit

[pureinheart]

I beg to differ. If she doesn't throw him out on D-day and forces him to make the NC call, she is indeed helping (making) him throw the OW under the bus.

 

Precisely...I am sure the majority of D-Day's throws the MM off guard, and there is usually more to the story than meets the eye, meaning there is a lot more involved than can actually be discussed even in forum settings.

 

Sure, there are just some plain cowards out there, but most are just confused and are not sure what to do...

 

I had a friend that used to tell her H that she would take him for everything they owned if he tried to leave her. He was miserable and drank a 12 pack of beer everyday. Certainly this isn't the case for all BW's, although it does happen.

[Samantha0905]

But that pressure is really the pressure he puts himself under.

 

Really it is a choice in responding to various pressures. It is more cowardly to not make a choice, rather than to make one you have doubts about.

 

But I don't know if I agree with myself already!

 

I find this topic confusing, so I'll revert to personal experience of cowardice. It is cowardly to abandon someone to a bad fate if we know we shouldn't and fear reprisals (I have often come out of this test well). It is also cowardly to not do what we know is right for ourselves because we fear reprisals (I find this harder).

 

But what if the first becomes conflicted with the second? What if you are a coward whatever the choice? What if you must either abandon when you feel it is wrong, or abandon yourself (what you feel is right for yourself without the other pressure)? Then the altruistic choice, so often made by MAPs is surely right? So the non-cowardly WS makes the choice based on what they feel to be right rather than on fear of reprisals (even though those reprisals are there either way).

 

I think the WSs put themselves in an impasse of cowardice from the start. It is not fear in the end which leads these decisions, but love. Because we don't fear so much when love is the deciding factor. Any lack of agency emerges from this conflict, and ultimately the MM who goes back to his (non-abusive) W knocks the socks off a MM who will abandon his family for a more selfish love. He chooses the better way to be a coward.

 

And that quite uplifting version of thrown under a bus actually makes me feel (temporarily I'm sure) better.

 

Not sure what this means for fence-sitters, and feel a whole new area of cowardice/bravery is open to interpretation there.

 

Maybe we should not define it as cowardice or bravery? Words to make us feel bad or good. Maybe we should own up to our feelings, understanding they may cause pain. Or maybe we should suck it up and not? Why do we refer to either as cowardice or bravery?

[NoIDidn't]

I think the WSs put themselves in an impasse of cowardice from the start.

 

I think so. It was fear of dealing with things in the marital relationship that led to the false bravado displayed by many WSs in the AR.

 

Its been said before that the throwing the marriage, and all it entails, under the bus is what leads to the OP being thrown under the bus.

 

Both the MP and the OP sign up for the outcome. Someone is always discarded because of the way the R came about. And I think that the AR came about primarily because of "cowardice" on the part of the WS.

[White Flower]

Maybe we should not define it as cowardice or bravery? Words to make us feel bad or good. Maybe we should own up to our feelings, understanding they may cause pain. Or maybe we should suck it up and not? Why do we refer to either as cowardice or bravery?

Speaking for myself here, but that is exactly what MM told me when I asked him why he didn't just fess up on D-day. He said he was a coward.

 

He's been in IC for quite a while now trying to figure out why he was such a coward on that day. When I get the final answer I will start a thread and let you all know. For now, it appears that while he knew what he wanted there were things he/we had not discussed thouroughly about our lifestyles and our future, finances being an important subject. He didn't know what our lifestyle would be if he was paying alimony and he only had a rough figure on my income. I don't want to t/j but I did want to answer your question.

 

Oh, and another subject was that of support from friends and family. He had kept our A a secret from everyone for 4 years, except for one friend who only knew of us in the last 4 months. Since D-day, he has told family members, more friends, and has been openly engaging with my friends too. I suppose he needed to know how accepted he would be if people knew which he is now finding out. His biggest hurdle in this area will be with his adult kids, one of which is pretty judgmental he says.

 

To sum it up, knowledge (bravery in this case) is power. Had we worked out every detail prior to D-day (which we knew was inevitable and had been working on) he may have been more courageous in owning up to the truth, knowing he had a place to go and that there was a (financial) solid future there as well as the solid emotional/physical future.

[pureinheart]

Maybe we should not define it as cowardice or bravery? Words to make us feel bad or good. Maybe we should own up to our feelings, understanding they may cause pain. Or maybe we should suck it up and not? Why do we refer to either as cowardice or bravery?

 

This is an excellent point

[pureinheart]

Speaking for myself here, but that is exactly what MM told me when I asked him why he didn't just fess up on D-day. He said he was a coward.

 

He's been in IC for quite a while now trying to figure out why he was such a coward on that day. When I get the final answer I will start a thread and let you all know. For now, it appears that while he knew what he wanted there were things he/we had not discussed thouroughly about our lifestyles and our future, finances being an important subject. He didn't know what our lifestyle would be if he was paying alimony and he only had a rough figure on my income. I don't want to t/j but I did want to answer your question.

 

Oh, and another subject was that of support from friends and family. He had kept our A a secret from everyone for 4 years, except for one friend who only knew of us in the last 4 months. Since D-day, he has told family members, more friends, and has been openly engaging with my friends too. I suppose he needed to know how accepted he would be if people knew which he is now finding out. His biggest hurdle in this area will be with his adult kids, one of which is pretty judgmental he says.

 

To sum it up, knowledge (bravery in this case) is power. Had we worked out every detail prior to D-day (which we knew was inevitable and had been working on) he may have been more courageous in owning up to the truth, knowing he had a place to go and that there was a (financial) solid future there as well as the solid emotional/physical future.

 

Actually your MM has a lot of courage...there is a lot of fear involved. The entire 3rd paragragh describes exDM's situation and fears, although he never discussed it much back then. The "bold" was the biggest fear.

[White Flower]

Actually your MM has a lot of courage...there is a lot of fear involved. The entire 3rd paragragh describes exDM's situation and fears, although he never discussed it much back then. The "bold" was the biggest fear.

I have spent 4 years trying to convince MM that his kids will accept him if he D's, and that his D does not have to be focused on an A. I know I accepted my dad after discovering an A. In fact, I found that no matter what I needed my father as well as loved him. Most adult kids find this to be true especially after having kids of their own.

 

Yes, MM has overcome a lot already. His courage grows daily. We'll see where that leads.

[jennie-jennie]

I still don't understand with your beliefs of monogamy why you did get married this time. This is not an insult. You have made it quite clear you don't really believe in marriage.

 

Quite simple - we wanted to be together. We're citizens of different countries, so the only way for that to happen was to get M, so that we could each legally reside in the other's country for longer than a few months at a time.

 

So what are your views about marriage, OWoman? It would be interesting to hear you elaborate a bit on that.

Edited March 17, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[OWoman]

So what are your views about marriage, OWoman? It would be interesting to hear you elaborate a bit on that.

 

It's been done:

 

here,

 

here,

 

here,

 

for starters...

[jennie-jennie]

It's been done:

 

here,

 

here,

 

here,

 

for starters...

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I will check it out.

[White Flower]

But that pressure is really the pressure he puts himself under.

 

Really it is a choice in responding to various pressures. It is more cowardly to not make a choice, rather than to make one you have doubts about.

 

But I don't know if I agree with myself already!

 

I find this topic confusing, so I'll revert to personal experience of cowardice. It is cowardly to abandon someone to a bad fate if we know we shouldn't and fear reprisals (I have often come out of this test well). It is also cowardly to not do what we know is right for ourselves because we fear reprisals (I find this harder).

 

But what if the first becomes conflicted with the second? What if you are a coward whatever the choice? What if you must either abandon when you feel it is wrong, or abandon yourself (what you feel is right for yourself without the other pressure)? Then the altruistic choice, so often made by MAPs is surely right? So the non-cowardly WS makes the choice based on what they feel to be right rather than on fear of reprisals (even though those reprisals are there either way).

 

I think the WSs put themselves in an impasse of cowardice from the start. It is not fear in the end which leads these decisions, but love. Because we don't fear so much when love is the deciding factor. Any lack of agency emerges from this conflict, and ultimately the MM who goes back to his (non-abusive) W knocks the socks off a MM who will abandon his family for a more selfish love. He chooses the better way to be a coward.

 

And that quite uplifting version of thrown under a bus actually makes me feel (temporarily I'm sure) better.

 

Not sure what this means for fence-sitters, and feel a whole new area of cowardice/bravery is open to interpretation there.

WW I don't know how I missed this post.

 

The last bolded statement I find confusing (and I know you stated you were confused yourself;)). I would like to think all decisions were based on love but quite frankly when caught off guard decisions can be made in fear. Yes, love is the opposite of fear but we cannot always determine what emotion we will be feeling when faced with a sudden forced decision.

 

An altruistic choice may seem 'right' but often is not the case; it just feels safer hidden under altruistic wrapping paper. MM may feel he has made the 'right' (right by who???) choice in everybody else's eyes because of societal norms and pressures. What is left sometimes is a very unhappy man who feels cowardly and foolish for not standing up for himself. Again, it's all about agency.

 

My MM is in counseling currently dealing with childhood issues that stripped him of his agency. Whatever happened back then determined how he needed to be viewed later. Looking prim and proper became very important to him and also very safe. I know this is not the case for all MM but it can be. We just don't like to talk about it unfortunately.

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I will check it out.

 

OWoman, I see you don't believe in monogamy and exclusivity. So would you call your marriage an open marriage then? Or are you at the present time exclusive by choice?

[pureinheart]

I have spent 4 years trying to convince MM that his kids will accept him if he D's, and that his D does not have to be focused on an A. I know I accepted my dad after discovering an A. In fact, I found that no matter what I needed my father as well as loved him. Most adult kids find this to be true especially after having kids of their own.

 

Yes, MM has overcome a lot already. His courage grows daily. We'll see where that leads.

 

WF *frustrated tone*, this mostlikely was the thing that caused our R not to work. If I remember correctly, your MM's kids are grown...exDM's kids were grown. Even if they are not (in my situation), the toxicity of the R was much worse than the A issues.

 

I used to hear how his kids were "councelled", and would think OMG those kids will be a mess if there is not proper intervention, BTW will say again, they were grown, although "kept" as little kids, not given skills to adapt to the "big world". Both parents kept these kids captive per se.

 

I wanted so bad to councel those kids myself...in past very old threads I communicated their behavior and this would not have been tolerated with my kids, no matter what the circumstances...anyway, I could write a book on this subject alone.

 

I would venture to say that your MM's fear of loosing his kids are very real, as the kids could be "hearing" personal things that they should not. I have seen kids used as a weapon grown or not...{I want to state that this is by no means is experience from this board...it is my own personal experience being communicated, and I am seeing a correlation with WF's experience}.

 

Separately exDM and his exW try to teach the kids morals...BUT when it concerns the exM every moral flies out the window...they were toxic together...WF after being on the other end of this thing...from beginning to end, this is the observation that I have seen and am concluding with.

 

It is amazing that exDM has any morals at all, due to the way he was raised, although concerning his kids I was surprized at the high level. His exW was raised fairly well so that is where hers comes from.

 

ExDM worked (about 25yrs) as a contractor for the AF, so was exposed to a great deal of morality and desired that for his life.

 

Your MM's exposure is at extremely high levels based on one of your posts...this could be being used against him. I hope his IC is on Base as the councellors there know how to deal with the transitonal issues of civillian/enlisted (that is not the word, as I think he is on an officer level).

 

It is difficult, and I know this will sound strange to some, although he might need to separate his "job" from his "home" life as I think they are conflicting concerning the "duty" part.

 

WF, all of my family was military (both sides), I worked for the military all of my life, or a part thereof, the bases have some of the best councellors I've ever seen ....

 

My mother and father both had A's...they kept personal business from me...they were both honorable. They tried their best to let me be a kid. I was not drug into their fight with each other. I transitioned well.

 

Change is hard even if it is good change...I may never know the real truth concerning exDM, BUT they both had the courage to say enoughs enough, and they are now working together (maybe for the first time)...peace finally....

 

Oh and BTW, I have been in contact with exDM since yet another NC episode. It is over for us, our time is gone...I didn't want to say anything because of the wonderful people who helped me in extremely distressed times...this swinging pendulum is finally about to balance out.

 

I have one more bad choice issue from the past to fix, but after that it's time to PARTY.

 

Anyway, sorry for the book, although now it is time for your MM to live HIS life...(((((WF)))))

[White Flower]

WF *frustrated tone*, this mostlikely was the thing that caused our R not to work. If I remember correctly, your MM's kids are grown...exDM's kids were grown. Even if they are not (in my situation), the toxicity of the R was much worse than the A issues.

 

I used to hear how his kids were "councelled", and would think OMG those kids will be a mess if there is not proper intervention, BTW will say again, they were grown, although "kept" as little kids, not given skills to adapt to the "big world". Both parents kept these kids captive per se.

 

I wanted so bad to councel those kids myself...in past very old threads I communicated their behavior and this would not have been tolerated with my kids, no matter what the circumstances...anyway, I could write a book on this subject alone.

 

I would venture to say that your MM's fear of loosing his kids are very real, as the kids could be "hearing" personal things that they should not. I have seen kids used as a weapon grown or not...{I want to state that this is by no means is experience from this board...it is my own personal experience being communicated, and I am seeing a correlation with WF's experience}.

 

Separately exDM and his exW try to teach the kids morals...BUT when it concerns the exM every moral flies out the window...they were toxic together...WF after being on the other end of this thing...from beginning to end, this is the observation that I have seen and am concluding with.

 

It is amazing that exDM has any morals at all, due to the way he was raised, although concerning his kids I was surprized at the high level. His exW was raised fairly well so that is where hers comes from.

 

ExDM worked (about 25yrs) as a contractor for the AF, so was exposed to a great deal of morality and desired that for his life.

 

Your MM's exposure is at extremely high levels based on one of your posts...this could be being used against him. I hope his IC is on Base as the councellors there know how to deal with the transitonal issues of civillian/enlisted (that is not the word, as I think he is on an officer level).

 

It is difficult, and I know this will sound strange to some, although he might need to separate his "job" from his "home" life as I think they are conflicting concerning the "duty" part.

 

WF, all of my family was military (both sides), I worked for the military all of my life, or a part thereof, the bases have some of the best councellors I've ever seen ....

 

My mother and father both had A's...they kept personal business from me...they were both honorable. They tried their best to let me be a kid. I was not drug into their fight with each other. I transitioned well.

 

Change is hard even if it is good change...I may never know the real truth concerning exDM, BUT they both had the courage to say enoughs enough, and they are now working together (maybe for the first time)...peace finally....

 

Oh and BTW, I have been in contact with exDM since yet another NC episode. It is over for us, our time is gone...I didn't want to say anything because of the wonderful people who helped me in extremely distressed times...this swinging pendulum is finally about to balance out.

 

I have one more bad choice issue from the past to fix, but after that it's time to PARTY.

 

Anyway, sorry for the book, although now it is time for your MM to live HIS life...(((((WF)))))

Wow, thank you Pure!

 

I had no idea that bases had counselors and will ask him about that.

 

MM's kids are wonderful, mature, and successful adults in their own right but I have noticed a couple of family issues that are different than most and I'm not sure I want to critisize it now as I see their tactics as ones with good intention yet overly in-your-face and pushy where control is a concern. If son in his 30s forgets to bring a card along with flowers for mom on her birthday, for example, dad will make grown son go out and by a card and come back to the house! No dinner is served without that card! I can see this guidance being offered to a 12 year old son but to one in his 30s? And to be told in front of his new wife he didn't do right by mama might be a little humiliating. I wouldn't have done it yet I do see that it would have been nicer if son showed up with a card on his own.

 

My guess is from watching this over the years is that MM's W was going to make a big deal out of it and MM didn't want the day ruined (because that too would have been HIS fault) so MM put the pressure on son to make it right. This kind of thing goes on all the time at MM's home and it is interesting to watch. Yet, with the micro-managing of everyone involved one can see how the pressure is on MM at any given moment since he is commander-in-chief; if something goes well, praise to the chief. If something goes wrong, the chief's ass is grass.

 

And if chief cheats, all the micro-managing will be turned on him by those who have been trained oh-so-well to micro-manage.

 

MM feels that W would initiate calls to the kids who would then in turn call dad and parrot words and feelings BW says to him. He feels they would be coached into saying they will have nothing further to do with him, don't call, don't write, and don't visit ever again.

 

You and I both know that children of D can be very understanding and forgiving but with the lack of agency (due to MM's childhood) and being M to an overpowering W makes him think different. To him his fears are very real while to us (through our own experiences) they are nothing but mere threats that die in the aftermath.

 

But there is good news. MM's counselor feels they are making progress in this area.

[pureinheart]

Wow, thank you Pure!

 

I had no idea that bases had counselors and will ask him about that.

 

MM's kids are wonderful, mature, and successful adults in their own right but I have noticed a couple of family issues that are different than most and I'm not sure I want to critisize it now as I see their tactics as ones with good intention yet overly in-your-face and pushy where control is a concern. If son in his 30s forgets to bring a card along with flowers for mom on her birthday, for example, dad will make grown son go out and by a card and come back to the house! No dinner is served without that card! I can see this guidance being offered to a 12 year old son but to one in his 30s? And to be told in front of his new wife he didn't do right by mama might be a little humiliating. I wouldn't have done it yet I do see that it would have been nicer if son showed up with a card on his own.

 

My guess is from watching this over the years is that MM's W was going to make a big deal out of it and MM didn't want the day ruined (because that too would have been HIS fault) so MM put the pressure on son to make it right. This kind of thing goes on all the time at MM's home and it is interesting to watch. Yet, with the micro-managing of everyone involved one can see how the pressure is on MM at any given moment since he is commander-in-chief; if something goes well, praise to the chief. If something goes wrong, the chief's ass is grass.

 

And if chief cheats, all the micro-managing will be turned on him by those who have been trained oh-so-well to micro-manage.

 

MM feels that W would initiate calls to the kids who would then in turn call dad and parrot words and feelings BW says to him. He feels they would be coached into saying they will have nothing further to do with him, don't call, don't write, and don't visit ever again.

 

You and I both know that children of D can be very understanding and forgiving but with the lack of agency (due to MM's childhood) and being M to an overpowering W makes him think different. To him his fears are very real while to us (through our own experiences) they are nothing but mere threats that die in the aftermath.

 

But there is good news. MM's counselor feels they are making progress in this area.

 

Hi WF...your MM's assessment of what would happen is mostlikely correct...given that he really can't win, and is basically set up to fail just like exDM was.

 

You described an interesting dynamic....and yes they will die as you sais in the aftermath...I saw it with my own eyes. At first the kids were "not allowed" to talk to him (granted the youngest kid is 26 or 27 now), if they did they were considered "traders" (her exact words) and then excommunicated (no lie)...this has faded now that the D is final and they are working together where the kids are concerned.

 

ExDM used the kids to "communicate" to his exW during the D because she put a restraining order on him, so he was afraid to get into anymore trouble...a lot of drama that did not need to be...for me I just got D'ed and that was it...told exH to take what he wanted ....done...no drama as I hate drama.

 

ExDM is still treating his kids like they are 5yrs old...he has an extra house that he lets his oldest son live in along with some other people...no lie WF he has the house wired, meaning he has cameras on the house and a sensor that sounds when someone comes to the door so that he can monitor who goes over there...

 

I asked him when was he gonna have his own life???? This is why I can not be with him, he won't let go, I think he enjoys monitoring his other house...oh well, if it works for him, then I wish him all of the happiness.

 

I am soooo glad MM is progressing in this area, so that you won't have to go through hell and back

[OWoman]

OWoman, I see you don't believe in monogamy and exclusivity. So would you call your marriage an open marriage then? Or are you at the present time exclusive by choice?

 

We're currently both exclusive, by choice. I don't have the hots for anyone else, so why would I jump their bones?

[JustJoe]

MS Owoman, you seem to have commitment issues. Is this the result of negative , past experiences? BTW, would both you and your partner inform the other, if your "exclusive", status changed? I, myself am very leery of Marriage, and IMO, "forever", is a very long time. I do insist, however, on personal integrity in my partner. I would expect her to be honest about any "outside", male interest, if such should happen, just as I would inform her about the reverse.

[pureinheart]

MS Owoman, you seem to have commitment issues. Is this the result of negative , past experiences? BTW, would both you and your partner inform the other, if your "exclusive", status changed? I, myself am very leery of Marriage, and IMO, "forever", is a very long time. I do insist, however, on personal integrity in my partner. I would expect her to be honest about any "outside", male interest, if such should happen, just as I would inform her about the reverse.

 

Forgive me as this was directed at OWoman, although this sentance caught my eye.

 

When I was younger there was NO desire to M, yet I railroaded myself into it a couple of times (under duress of course...lol).

 

Now, I think I might want the happily everafter...in fact I know it. Most men, especially at my age are discouraged where M is concerned and want no part of it.

 

This makes me sad right now because I get real sentimental late at night, but regain my disdain in the morning and become once again despondant to feelings of this nature, as there is nothing I can do about my situation.

 

SOOO, I will Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. Thanks for the vent...lol....am feeling much better.

[pureinheart]

It's been done:

 

here,

 

here,

 

here,

 

for starters...

 

Your first "here" was the environment I worked in. I was unable to keep up with who's with who today (both gay and lesbian R's also). I learned quick to remain silent and not ask 'so-and-so' how 'so-and-so' is doing~~~

 

This could be why I did not freak out when my H was seeing someone else. Actually it seemed more important to find out where the next party was...hey I was young.

Edited March 19, 2010 by pureinheart

[OWoman]

MS Owoman, you seem to have commitment issues. Is this the result of negative , past experiences?

 

Joe, you seem to have difficulty distinguishing between political choices and psychological hang-ups. I hope that that does not colour your behaviour at the polling booth.

 

BTW, would both you and your partner inform the other, if your "exclusive", status changed?

 

I'm very upfront in my Rs, and I insist on absolute honesty with, and from, my partners - and always have done. My M is no different to any of my other Rs. Everyone must know exactly where they stand at all times, must own their decisions and their choices, and must live with whatever consequences flow from those. If that makes me "rigid", so be it - it's the only way I can operate.

[JustJoe]

Owoman, I know, my spelling sucks, but my heart is in the right place, politically as well as psychologically. My comment about your"rigidity", was more about your defensive, somewhat puritanical attitude to posters who disagree with you, rather than any serious disagreement with your opinions. What you believe, seems to work for you, but qualitatively isn't superior to anyone else's beliefs. I've never been so certain, that I couldn't at least try to relate to other opinions. I may change my feelings about marriage, but there is only one woman , who could get me to the altar, If only.

[Got it]

Owoman, I know, my spelling sucks, but my heart is in the right place, politically as well as psychologically. My comment about your"rigidity", was more about your defensive, somewhat puritanical attitude to posters who disagree with you, rather than any serious disagreement with your opinions. What you believe, seems to work for you, but qualitatively isn't superior to anyone else's beliefs. I've never been so certain, that I couldn't at least try to relate to other opinions. I may change my feelings about marriage, but there is only one woman , who could get me to the altar, If only.

 

Joe, can you show where OWoman has indicated that her viewpoint was superior towards others? In what manner can she show that she "relates to other's opinions? Is it because she disagrees with your viewpoint?

 

I am confused by your comment about her "puritanical attitutude to posters who disagree with you . . . " Puritanical means very strict in moral or religious matters, often excessively so; rigidly austere. Can you indicate where OWoman showed the above? Do you think have shown the above?