indecisive coward

[Brokenlady]

Your kids will probably not feel as warm and fuzzy about HER like you do, let alone your wife. I highly doubt your wife will be OK allowing the OW to play stepmom, especially if you divorce and move in with the OW right away. It would be pretty selfish and cruel of you to make your kids have to deal with the OW so quickly after having their lives turned upside down.

 

The thing is, his wife doesn't get to have a say in that anymore than he gets a say in her boyfriends once they've split up. Obviously his kids need time to adjust to the divorce before the OW comes into the picture. But why did you jump all over this? He didn't say he intended to do anything at all let alone bring OW immedicately into the kids lives.

[fooled once]

The thing is, his wife doesn't get to have a say in that anymore than he gets a say in her boyfriends once they've split up. Obviously his kids need time to adjust to the divorce before the OW comes into the picture. But why did you jump all over this? He didn't say he intended to do anything at all let alone bring OW immedicately into the kids lives.

 

NOT entirely accurate.

 

Depends on the state, depends on the level of nastiness in the divorce, etc.

 

The wife could easily put a "no overnights" clause in the divorce, she could make life hell for the OW, the children could see that dad cheated on mom with OW and therefore make the OW's life hell when at dad's, etc.

 

I understand why this was brought up because he stated that

I am completely at ease wtih OW having relationship with my kids and she is comfortable with that as well.

 

I mean, what a naive statement to make. I am a stepmom and there was no cheating involved in my H's divorce by my step kids made their new stepfather's life H*LL. Absolute h*ll!!

 

So for the OP to think so naively that the kids will welcome her or warm up to her is almost laughable.....especially after they find out dad was cheating. And more than likely, they will find out. Kids aren't stupid.

 

So OP, did you have that counseling you said you were having this week?

[tbone]

NOT entirely accurate.

 

Depends on the state, depends on the level of nastiness in the divorce, etc.

 

The wife could easily put a "no overnights" clause in the divorce, she could make life hell for the OW, the children could see that dad cheated on mom with OW and therefore make the OW's life hell when at dad's, etc.

 

I understand why this was brought up because he stated that

 

 

I mean, what a naive statement to make. I am a stepmom and there was no cheating involved in my H's divorce by my step kids made their new stepfather's life H*LL. Absolute h*ll!!

 

So for the OP to think so naively that the kids will welcome her or warm up to her is almost laughable.....especially after they find out dad was cheating. And more than likely, they will find out. Kids aren't stupid.

 

So OP, did you have that counseling you said you were having this week?

 

I am comfortable based on her as a person. I do not expect the kids to naturally welcome her or warm up to her automatically. I'm sorry if it seemed i insinuated such, as that is not realistic.

 

Counseling is this Saturday.

[Brokenlady]

NOT entirely accurate.

 

Depends on the state, depends on the level of nastiness in the divorce, etc.

 

The wife could easily put a "no overnights" clause in the divorce, she could make life hell for the OW, the children could see that dad cheated on mom with OW and therefore make the OW's life hell when at dad's, etc.

 

In most places, parents have equal rights, so his W would have real difficulty implmenting such a clause. Unless he is a safety risk to the children, there is no reason to do that. And, even if the OW is around the kids, the W would have to prove that SHE is a safety risk.

 

Now, I agree that a bitter xW can make things real difficult, but that isn't exclusive to divorces that result from cheating. And I really don't think fear of that is a good reason to stay married.

[bentnotbroken]

Fear isn't a reason to stay married for anyone. I think he should absolutely leave and give his wife a chance at finding a person who will respect her.

[tbone]

In most places, parents have equal rights, so his W would have real difficulty implmenting such a clause. Unless he is a safety risk to the children, there is no reason to do that. And, even if the OW is around the kids, the W would have to prove that SHE is a safety risk.

 

Now, I agree that a bitter xW can make things real difficult, but that isn't exclusive to divorces that result from cheating. And I really don't think fear of that is a good reason to stay married.

 

State law varies. My greatest fear would be her taking the children several states away. This is her "go to" threat, along with telling me she'd lie to human services. I sought some legal counsel and this is POSSIBLE, difficult yes, but possible.

 

I believe right now things have reached "critical mass". For me, the BS, and the OW. I think everyone is balancing on the precipice. Things won't continue on like this for any real significant period of time (days/weeks).

 

I wish I had better considered the ramifications before entering into this. I was in a fog of selfishness and delusion from reality. There will be a lot of pain to go around regardless.

[Brokenlady]

State law varies. My greatest fear would be her taking the children several states away. This is her "go to" threat, along with telling me she'd lie to human services. I sought some legal counsel and this is POSSIBLE, difficult yes, but possible.

 

You know, I've seen several BS's that make that threat to move - but it's just a threat. IMO, It's awfully sad if you have to manipulate someone to stay married to you.

 

Regarding the threat to lie to child welfare - that's shocking. No wonder those romantic feelings are gone. Maybe you can remind her that doing such is neither in the kid's best interests, and will most likely result in it backfiring on her. It's astonishing that she'd throw your kids in the fire just to manipulate you into staying with her. Wow. Just wow.

 

I believe right now things have reached "critical mass". For me, the BS, and the OW. I think everyone is balancing on the precipice. Things won't continue on like this for any real significant period of time (days/weeks).

 

Are you still waiting for fate to step in? xDM use to say all the time "it can't go on like this" - except it did (after d-day), for over a year before he finally moved out. You have a chance to be able to take ownership and control some of this if you set the wheels of decision in motion. If you don't act, you will lose that ability.

 

I wish I had better considered the ramifications before entering into this. I was in a fog of selfishness and delusion from reality. There will be a lot of pain to go around regardless.

 

It seems to be almost universally true that people never imagine exactly how distressing the conseuqences are when they embrak on affairs. But - the time to make the decision to not have an affair has passed. Focus on what reality is now, and go from there.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Brokenlady

[tbone]

OW and I broke it off today. This will be the 2nd real attempt to do so. Very mixed emotions and obviously having a difficult time dealing. We'll see how this goes. NC is hard after 6 months of constant communication. Especially when neither is sure it is what they want.

 

Basically she is tired of less than 100%. I can't continue to put her through this either right now as much as I'd like her to stay with me (crazy as that sounds).

 

What now? I don't know. Counseling tomorrow.

Edited March 5, 2010 by tbone

[tbone]

Wow. That had to have been hard. For both of you. And will continue to be hard for awhile.

I know ive been really ugly to you, but I sure wish you all the best in making your decision.

 

Thanks. I still have no idea where I'm at and what I want. Maybe that will become clearer if I can withstand NC?

[PhoenixRise]

You know, I've seen several BS's that make that threat to move - but it's just a threat. IMO, It's awfully sad if you have to manipulate someone to stay married to you.

 

Regarding the threat to lie to child welfare - that's shocking. No wonder those romantic feelings are gone. Maybe you can remind her that doing such is neither in the kid's best interests, and will most likely result in it backfiring on her. It's astonishing that she'd throw your kids in the fire just to manipulate you into staying with her. Wow. Just wow.

 

 

 

Are you still waiting for fate to step in? xDM use to say all the time "it can't go on like this" - except it did (after d-day), for over a year before he finally moved out. You have a chance to be able to take ownership and control some of this if you set the wheels of decision in motion. If you don't act, you will lose that ability.

 

 

 

It seems to be almost universally true that people never imagine exactly how distressing the conseuqences are when they embrak on affairs. But - the time to make the decision to not have an affair has passed. Focus on what reality is now, and go from there.

 

 

Saying that she will move away with the children may not be an empty threat or a manipulation.

 

I moved away. Several states away from my H. We have a child. It wasn't a manipulation to get him to do anything. I didn't expect him to do anything. It was a response to the actions he had taken that I believed ended our marriage.

 

I had been a SAHM (at my H's request) and in order for me to rebuild my career, get myself on my feet, and prepare to be a divorced mom I needed to move closer to my family where I had job contacts and a family support system.

 

OP not saying that you should stay married because of threats or fear, just pointing out that sometimes what might be perceived as a manipulative threat is actually just a statement of fact.

 

Regarding the whole child services, I can't imagine that any good mother would make something up out of whole cloth and involve child services. After all, after a report like this is made, the parents have no control over child services observations or decisions. She could lose the kids too. They could end up in foster care. It would take somebody pretty reckless to play around with this. Is your W a reckless person? Is she a good mother?

[wheelwright]

Thanks. I still have no idea where I'm at and what I want. Maybe that will become clearer if I can withstand NC?

 

Yes, but don't expect quick results. Especially as you are someone who thinks things through, rather than being spontaneous about this issue.

 

It was all so easy when we were young. We knew it wasn't right, and we walked away.

 

M and kids in the equation, and you have to question what's decent, are you messed up because your M isn't working, were you messed up before it got to this, is society messed up for expecting you to feel that way, will you suffer whatever you choose, will the people you are committed to suffer, are you a selfish p****, is your partner incompatable long-term or is it that you are basically a serial monogamist who will end up cold and lonely because you didn't get what was important. What will make you happy, will that really make others happy/unhappy?

 

And a whole load of other stuff. It's HARD.

 

I don't think you can work it out properly. You have to make choices based on personal values, faith and compassion. And your own heart, your gut instinct and your rationality.

 

Those choices involve dissonance.

 

A friend said to me that in a perfect world we should make our choices based on love and not fear. Where would love lead you?

 

A choice based on fear will always feel wrong. One based on love will feel right.

 

And I don't just mean romantic love, I mean the kind of love that wants the best for others, that is generous, has compassion, and strength.

 

Good luck with NC.

[tbone]

I had been a SAHM (at my H's request) and in order for me to rebuild my career, get myself on my feet, and prepare to be a divorced mom I needed to move closer to my family where I had job contacts and a family support system.

 

Regarding the whole child services, I can't imagine that any good mother would make something up out of whole cloth and involve child services. After all, after a report like this is made, the parents have no control over child services observations or decisions. She could lose the kids too. They could end up in foster care. It would take somebody pretty reckless to play around with this. Is your W a reckless person? Is she a good mother?

 

She is in the exact postion you mention Phoenix. With the exception of "at the H's request". I supported her in that regard, but not to the extent I think she expects to fill this role even after they all are in school. That was never part of the agreement. But her current postition of SAHM is why it is not out of the question. She would move with an aunt and sister and have a bettter shot at job prospects, have more family support, etc.

 

In terms of her being a good mother? Yes. She is a good mother. I don't agree always with her parenting philosphy or methods, but she always has what she believe are the children's best interests in mind in her decision making.

 

There are large conflicts in our ideologies though that lead to real and substantial conflicts in child rearing from time to time.

[PhoenixRise]

She is in the exact postion you mention Phoenix. With the exception of "at the H's request". I supported her in that regard, but not to the extent I think she expects to fill this role even after they all are in school. That was never part of the agreement. But her current postition of SAHM is why it is not out of the question. She would move with an aunt and sister and have a bettter shot at job prospects, have more family support, etc.

 

In terms of her being a good mother? Yes. She is a good mother. I don't agree always with her parenting philosphy or methods, but she always has what she believe are the children's best interests in mind in her decision making.

 

There are large conflicts in our ideologies though that lead to real and substantial conflicts in child rearing from time to time .

 

 

OK

 

Just trying to get a handle on the wife here....

 

With the conflicts in your ideologies regarding child rearing, is there something in your ideology that she could see as worthy of a call to child protective services (I am not saying she is right) but is it, in her mind a legitimate concern? Or do you think it is just pure manipulation?

 

AND

 

Regarding the marriage, I don't think ending things with the OW is going to get you off the hook regarding you making a firm decision about the marriage. If you can't decide to be "all in" you will take back up with this OW or another OW down the road.

 

Do you think it is possible for the marriage to improve?

[tbone]

OK

 

With the conflicts in your ideologies regarding child rearing, is there something in your ideology that she could see as worthy of a call to child protective services (I am not saying she is right) but is it, in her mind a legitimate concern? Or do you think it is just pure manipulation?

 

AND

 

Regarding the marriage, I don't think ending things with the OW is going to get you off the hook regarding you making a firm decision about the marriage. If you can't decide to be "all in" you will take back up with this OW or another OW down the road.

 

Do you think it is possible for the marriage to improve?

 

PURE manipulation. She admitted as such. She'd LIE to human services were her words to me.

 

Ending things with the OW certainly isn't going to get me off the hook. And it hasn't cleared my mind of much either. Do i think its possible for the marriage to improve? Certainly, it wouldn't take much for it to be an improvement. Right now it doesn't really exist. But I don't know if ultimately I could tolerate it or not. But I haven't ever tried to make it better per se. Right now I don't know if its in my heart to make the effort that it is going to take. Just being honest about my state of mind RIGHT NOW.

[tbone]

Is your wife open to counseling?

 

Absolutely. We'd been twice before I put a halt to it due to needing to confess to therapist. Right now, I know this sounds horrible, I'm trying to muster any desire to go.

 

Honestly, at this very moment I very much miss the OW.

[Brokenlady]

In terms of her being a good mother? Yes. She is a good mother. I don't agree always with her parenting philosphy or methods, but she always has what she believe are the children's best interests in mind in her decision making.

 

PURE manipulation. She admitted as such. She'd LIE to human services were her words to me.

 

Surely you see the contradiction here. Good mothers don't offer to turn the kid's worlds upside down to get what they want. Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people to try to use child services as a custody tool, and usually it backfires big time.

 

Ending things with the OW certainly isn't going to get me off the hook. And it hasn't cleared my mind of much either. Do i think its possible for the marriage to improve? Certainly, it wouldn't take much for it to be an improvement. Right now it doesn't really exist. But I don't know if ultimately I could tolerate it or not. But I haven't ever tried to make it better per se. Right now I don't know if its in my heart to make the effort that it is going to take. Just being honest about my state of mind RIGHT NOW.

 

That's fair. I don't think I'd feel real warm about someone who just told me they'd hang my kids out to dry just to manipulate me. Yikes.

[Brokenlady]

If it's meant to be, the OW will still be there, trust me.

 

I wouldn't bet on that. Quite often the OW has moved on by the time the MM gets himself together. But - If you worry about missing the boat, remember the Titanic.

 

But you are not doing her any favors by contacting her until you know what you want.

 

Very true. The kindest thing you can do for her is leave her alone until you decide you can invest 100% in your realtionship with her. However, I also think the same is true for your wife. Maybe try living alone for a month or so (contact with W limited to what is needed for kids) and figure out what you really want.

[tbone]

I wouldn't bet on that. Quite often the OW has moved on by the time the MM gets himself together. But - If you worry about missing the boat, remember the Titanic.

 

 

 

Very true. The kindest thing you can do for her is leave her alone until you decide you can invest 100% in your realtionship with her. However, I also think the same is true for your wife. Maybe try living alone for a month or so (contact with W limited to what is needed for kids) and figure out what you really want.

 

I don't know. I'm two hours from my counseling session and honestly I'm beside myself. I feel the OW moving on and I'm crushed. Whether or not it was reality it is quite painful to experience this sudden complete separation. I'm borderline despondant and want her back so desperately.

[2sunny]

Of course that is a fear. So is losing my children. Ridiculous as it sounds since I'm the one who made the choice to put myself in this position.

 

Breaking it off sounds easy, but it only sounds easy.

 

if you address you W with honesty and put your truth out there... it can only initiate a change. a change that will either improve your marriage through hard work - or cause it to end... either outcome is what you need to face.

[2sunny]

the counselor is coming from a place that says - if there isn't honesty, there is nothing to work with. so you, in actuality, have created a farce and there is no way out of it without revealing the truth so that everyone knows what you are all dealing with. complete transparency will make everything play out the way it's supposed to - instead of your agenda and the way you want it to.

 

this is key! being honest is the only way from here forward.

[tbone]

Had the session today. The counselor asked my opinion of where i wanted to go. I told him honestly I still didn't really know.

 

But, if I were to confess today I would pretty much have to say that I could not commit to doing what is required to make the marriage work.

 

That would be what I would have to say today. Is that as a result of my emotions since the OW and I called it quits? Am I experiencing anxiety of wanted to run to her and save that R?

 

He thinks this is the perfect time to decide. I think that's crazy.

 

He thinks I know what the RIGHT thing is to do since I get very emotional when I talk about my oldest son and how disappointed he will be and also when I bring up my father and how disappointed he will be. He thinks these are the things to hang my hat on, even though I don't get that emotional when discussing the wife. I get very emotional when talking about my oldest son and my father.

 

We are arranging a 2 hour session a week from today so that I can reveal my feelings with the wife there.

 

He wants me to visit with my father again and communicate with him what I'm going through to try and gain some clarity.

 

I"m holding on to two things right now. 1) I"m worried my judgement is clouded with desperately missing the OW 2) the feeling I"ve had all along that I"m not sure my heart would truly be in re-creating the marriage.

 

Assuming of course that she even wants to try.

 

Well, I have 6 days and 22 hours.

[2sunny]

it's not fair to your wife that she doesn't have the truth.

 

it's also not fair to pretend to work on the M when your thoughts and energy are on "what might have been" with your OW.

[FryFish]

it's not fair to your wife that she doesn't have the truth.

Since I have had difficulty expressing this exact same feeling while staying within what is considered acceptable for the forums I would just like to agree with 2sunny.

[Mr. Lucky]

If the OW is no longer there, then it wasn't meant to be.

So since the OW was there for the affair, does that mean it was meant to be? You seem to be leaving out free will. Everybody - WS, BS and OW all have their own choices to make and reasons for making them. Fate doesn't have much to do with it...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Brokenlady]

If the OW is no longer there, then it wasn't meant to be.

 

Personally, I don't buy the "meant to be" thing. It's romantic drivel, IMO. To sit back and place everything in the hands of fate instead of making hard choices is to abdicate responsibility and agency in life.