It's Happening Again :-( Full circle

[paperchase]

Hey everyone. By way of background, I've been posting on and off here for a bit. In February, 2009 things were very bad. After my GF had been pulling away for some time, she finally broke it off for good and cited having a new man. While she was pulling away I was trying to fix things and I was devastated.

 

I did all the wrong things but eventually went no contact. She came back and by April we were back together, but May traveling abroad. We did a few therapy sessions too. Major issue was age difference. She's turning 23 and I'm turning 36. I'm divorced with two kids who I see once a week and every other weekend, although not always. She's young social, active in her sorority, etc. She is involved in activities where she's not comfortable inviting me clearly. It's been an issue for me.

 

So things were great for a while but started to take a turn for the worse this past December. Christmas went well but NYE sucked. She told me just a few days before that she wanted to go to NYC with her girlfriends. She had never been. I acted out like a fool because I was expecting to spend it with her. Eventually she drew the line and went to NYC anyway. I was ready to dump her over it, but of course we made up afterwards...after she got her way.

 

To add some detail, she had been living with me after her lease ended for a few months. I was looking for a new place. We discussed getting one together but she decided as the time neared that she wanted to get her own spot, citing she had never lived alone. So I got mine and she got hers but actually had to get a roommate after realizing her wants exceeded her budget. It's the second time in the past 2.5 years of our on and off again dating that she's chosen not to move in with me when the opportunity presented itself.

 

So lately she's been more testy. Less communicative. More assertive in doing her own thing. Accusing me of wanting to break up. Accusing me of cheating. She's also spending more time with her girlfriends and excluding me. Our relationship ebbs and flows this way where it seems she's either chasing me or pulling away. It's soo hard to sustain her happiness and I go way beyond the call of duty. Anyhow, let me get to the point.

 

This past weekend we had a falling out. We were supposed to go out and when I was ready she was out with her girlfriend and was being evasive about her exact whereabouts just saying to neighborhood but not the spot. Then saying she wasn't ready then shortly after saying to come and I came and made a little scene. Not an argument just not friendly and I left quickly. So that night she broke up with me and the next morning she confirmed her decision.

 

She said we needed a break, she wanted to see other people, see what it was like to be single, do things a 23 year old does and not feel guilty. After an initial shock but NO BEGGING we went separate ways. The next day, we spoke. I said I was sorry for my behavior. I also said that I know she has a range of emotions that I can't possibly understand and that it was ok for her to love me and not want to be with me. I also said it was ok if she felt like she ended things prematurely because I felt things ended prematurely. I said it's not ok for her to think because she loves me we must be together. I told her I thought we had a lot of gas left in our tank but if she didn't feel that way it was ok too. Just not meant to be.

 

So she said to just "forget everything she said...I guess...we can still be together." Not a ringing endorsement. The the next day we went to church and had brunch and hung out. We haven't been intimate again and she hasn't slept over since dropping the bomb last Friday. I told her once I wanted to and she said that it wasn't a good idea that it would cloud her judgment. I haven't tried to talk about the relationship anymore. We've had some quiet moments, some kissing, cuddling, she fell asleep on my chest for an afternoon nap but went home for the night. Unsolicited, she said I don't know what I want. Then she asked what I wanted. I told her that I wanted the world for us and I didn't want to break up but I wanted her to be happy and if it happened then life goes on.

 

i haven't gone NC because it seems draconian at this juncture. I mean if she said she had another boyfriend or if she said she was sure and that it was really over I'd go dark. I haven't tried to sell her on us either because I don't want to push her away further. I'm just not sure what to do. This is all deja vu. I'm handling it differently this time and at least for the moment it hurts a little less, but I've been here. I just don't know what to do. All of her friends/family whose opinions she respects tell her she shouldn't be with a man of my age. They say I'm controlling. i don't think that's true although I do expect honesty and respect especially because i give so much to her in return. none of her friends have any men in their lives of care about them. They go to the clubs but aren't in committed relationship. I really need some advice.

 

A year later and I'm in the same spot. Getting dumped again; perhaps, for someone else, although she swears that's not the case. i feel like she loves me but wants to find a way to stop loving me. She has said things in the past like i just can't let go or get over you for whatever reason...I don't know why. Ok, you get the drift.

Edited March 1, 2010 by paperchase

[tinktronik]

It's time to realize and accept that this relationship is not what she wants. Let her go, go NC and try to move on. We are all here for support if and when you need it.

[paperchase]

Thanks for your input. Given your seniority on here, I'm sure you are right. But then she says things like you are the best BF I've ever had. I've never loved anyone like you. You have everything a woman wants...yada yada. The last time she broke up she said you don't deserve this, I'm going to regret this, I can't picture life without you. It just seems like she's being influenced by others so she can't trust her own decision-making. But at the end of the day, I guess if I was what she wanted she would never let go. It sucks because I know that I bring a very good package to the table and if I was younger or not divorced with kids, I wouldn't be here posting and mourning. This sucks.

[tinktronik]

Thanks for your input. Given your seniority on here, I'm sure you are right. But then she says things like you are the best BF I've ever had. I've never loved anyone like you. You have everything a woman wants...yada yada. The last time she broke up she said you don't deserve this, I'm going to regret this, I can't picture life without you. It just seems like she's being influenced by others so she can't trust her own decision-making. But at the end of the day, I guess if I was what she wanted she would never let go. It sucks because I know that I bring a very good package to the table and if I was younger or not divorced with kids, I wouldn't be here posting and mourning. This sucks.

 

This isn't about older of kids, I am 30 with 3 boys, a person who is ready for a committed relationship commits to a relationship. Your GF is not committed, she wants/ doesn't want at her whim. This is not a decisions she's making based on what others want, it's what she wants, don't try to convince yourself that she can't make her own decisions. This may be an issue of your pride being hurt.

 

Let her go. You have to go NC, if you don't she will call you up every time she gets bored or afraid of being alone, that's not enough for you. There are tons of great women out there that will commit and not take you for granted. Let yourself be happy and live life on your terms and give the woman that will commit to you and what you have to offer come into your life.

[paperchase]

Ok, I'll take what you say at face value. But the theme of our relationship, even our couples counseling, was how hard it is to deal with my age, ex and kids. How this is her first grown up relationship and how sometimes she just wishes she had a simple boyfriend..how much easier things would be. I don't want to discredit you but I think you have to understand the influence of her mom and sorority sisters. She talks to her mom multiple times each day. Her mom has no man and focuses solely on her only child. She and her mom didn't talk for some time after she committed to me initially. Also she gains almost all her confidence and sense of worth largely from being in an exclusive sorority. It is her life outside of me and work. Just trying to paint a picture.

 

Having said she should be able to make her own decisions and I guess if I was the man for her she wouldn't keep waffling every 6-12 months.

[tinktronik]

Ok, I'll take what you say at face value. But the theme of our relationship, even our couples counseling, was how hard it is to deal with my age, ex and kids. How this is her first grown up relationship and how sometimes she just wishes she had a simple boyfriend..how much easier things would be. I don't want to discredit you but I think you have to understand the influence of her mom and sorority sisters. She talks to her mom multiple times each day. Her mom has no man and focuses solely on her only child. She and her mom didn't talk for some time after she committed to me initially. Also she gains almost all her confidence and sense of worth largely from being in an exclusive sorority. It is her life outside of me and work. Just trying to paint a picture.

 

Having said she should be able to make her own decisions and I guess if I was the man for her she wouldn't keep waffling every 6-12 months.

 

She's stated what she wants, a simpler relationship. But as I said, there will be plenty of women that would be happy to be involved in your life as long as you and your ex don't bicker constantly.

[paperchase]

She's stated what she wants, a simpler relationship. But as I said, there will be plenty of women that would be happy to be involved in your life as long as you and your ex don't bicker constantly.

 

You are right. She has and trying to figure out why or change it is futile. My buddy once said "reasons don't matter only results." For whatever reason, over and over again the result is that she's not choosing to take our relationship to the next level.

 

The truth is we have some issues and she's not ideal for me either but I have a very hard time moving on when I'm in love even when the circumstances aren't idea. I stayed with my wife and was miserable until she left me and I was devastated, but it turned my whole life around for the better. Funny how that works. Still, I wasn't ready to throw in the towel.

[threebyfate]

tink stated it clearly. Her actions are telling you over and over again, she's not committed. So, why do you need to make this happen?

 

If I recall clearly from last time this happened, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you stated that you need a woman who plays games, who's hard to get, who keeps you challenged.

 

Well, you have one but now you know that when someone gives you mixed signals, it's because they're not all in.

 

The two of you are at different stages in your life, regardless of age. Stop blaming this on others. She's an adult by law and is responsible for her own actions.

 

Your buddy is right, in that it's results that count, not reasons. Words to actions have to match.

[paperchase]

tink stated it clearly. Her actions are telling you over and over again, she's not committed. So, why do you need to make this happen?

 

If I recall clearly from last time this happened, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you stated that you need a woman who plays games, who's hard to get, who keeps you challenged.

 

Well, you have one but now you know that when someone gives you mixed signals, it's because they're not all in.

 

The two of you are at different stages in your life, regardless of age. Stop blaming this on others. She's an adult by law and is responsible for her own actions.

 

Your buddy is right, in that it's results that count, not reasons. Words to actions have to match.

 

No, I never said I wanted someone who plays games. I said that she responds best when I play games or play hard to get and that as soon as I'm all in her interest seems to wane. My same buddy who talks about reasons versus results believes firmly that all women need their man to play games on some level and that it's not a game but should be looked at as a way of life (i.e., remaining detached). That thought is rather sobering.

 

We are at different stages of out life apparently, but it's strange because there have definitely been times when she wants to talk about marriage and kids something I'm not ready for, although eventually open to. So really where she's at in her life seems to change annually or semi annually as the case may be. I guess the only constant is the fact that when push comes to shove I'm not the her guy....wherever she may be in her life.

Edited March 1, 2010 by paperchase

[mammax3]

Hey paperchase. This is quite a situation.

 

Reading the above posts, it seems to me that she's just not in a mature headspace for what it takes to be in (what I will call) a Real Relationship. This is her issue, and not necessarily anything that you do (or don't) bring to the table.

 

I can't figure out how to cut and paste quotes from multiple posts, so the things you've said I'll highlight:

 

Our relationship ebbs and flows this way where it seems she's either chasing me or pulling away. It's soo hard to sustain her happiness and I go way beyond the call of duty.

 

Her happiness isn't your duty to sustain. That responsibilty lies squarely on her shoulders. mature beings realize that there is no 'chasing or pulling' in a loving equal relationship. There is discussion and emotional availability and honesty.

 

you have to understand the influence of her mom and sorority sisters. She talks to her mom multiple times each day.

 

This is indicative of her 'enmeshment' with these women rather than a strong core of self-esteem. For some, it's more important to have the approval of the externals in her life rather than the two parties in the relationship.

 

Please understand that none of this is intended as a 'bash' against her. I'm just seeing you blame yourself, and I've learned that a break up isn't always about what was done or not done (I mean, sometimes it is, of course) but how the other person has reacted based on their personal history and experiences. This makes it more about fit and desire to openly and respectfully discuss emotional responses rather than bail or blame.

[threebyfate]

No, I never said I wanted someone who plays games. I said that she responds best when I play games or play hard to get and that as soon as I'm all in her interest seems to wane. My same buddy who talks about reasons versus results believes firmly that all women need their man to play games on some level and that it's not a game but should be looked at as a way of life (i.e., remaining detached). That thought is rather sobering.

I misinterpreted what your buddy meant. If he's encouraging you towards push-pull games, you're never going to find an emotionally healthy woman. Push-pull creates distrust. Distrust ruins any chance for viable relationships. End result, you're only going to hook the emotionally fracked up women.

 

We are at different stages of out life apparently, but it's strange because there have definitely been times when she wants to talk about marriage and kids something I'm not ready for, although eventually open to. So really where she's at in her life seems to change annually or semi annually as the case may be. I guess the only constant is the fact that when push comes to shove I'm not the her guy....wherever she may be in her life.

You expect too much from a 23 year old. Right now she's just learning about herself. The average person's brain isn't even fully formed, until age 25.

[kimbop]

I think others have repeated the same mantra over and over again: She's simply too young for you. She's 23, and her world revolves around sorority sisters, parties, social events and etc. She hasn't come into her own as an adult yet.

 

You know the reason why you're putting yourself in this misery. You are putting your livelihood on the whims of a 23 yr old. I don't know what you expect from her. She's not suddenly going to become mature overnight, understand repurcussions of her decisions and comprehend that she's dating a divorcee with kids who should be more important than her.

 

Don't expect a serious adult relationship with her. Obviously she's just testing the waters with you and not ready to take the plunge yet. Let her be. Be the mature adult here and let her go or else you'll continue to be in pain.

[paperchase]

I think others have repeated the same mantra over and over again: She's simply too young for you. She's 23, and her world revolves around sorority sisters, parties, social events and etc. She hasn't come into her own as an adult yet.

 

You know the reason why you're putting yourself in this misery. You are putting your livelihood on the whims of a 23 yr old. I don't know what you expect from her. She's not suddenly going to become mature overnight, understand repurcussions of her decisions and comprehend that she's dating a divorcee with kids who should be more important than her.

 

Don't expect a serious adult relationship with her. Obviously she's just testing the waters with you and not ready to take the plunge yet. Let her be. Be the mature adult here and let her go or else you'll continue to be in pain.

 

I don't think 23 is very young. I was getting married at that age, working on wall street and earning 6 figures. My then wife was doing the same. I've learned a lot since then, but I was fairly mature at that time and I knew what I wanted.

 

Like I said, there have been times, long stretches, where she does seem to comprehend the importance of us and where she does prioritize our relationship, but it's all or nothing. She either embraces her social circle or us, but she doesn't seem to be able to do both.

 

Anyhow, I don't want to live in pain that's for sure. Breaking up is painful; being together causes pain; I'm not sure what the solution is. Our relationship is in limbo right now. She calls, she texts (although not as frequently and not with the lovey dubby stuff...mostly cute friendly stuff. Lots of gratuitous lol! but not much I love you). She has invited me to a movie and asked about a concert. She hasn't spent the night since last Thursday I think and she usually stays over almost all the time. There seems to be a moratorium on sex and I'm not pushing the issue. Am I supposed to just go NC now? Do I say something? Do I pull away? It's really unclear where things technically stand although it's very clear things have changed and not for the better. I didn't even get a goodnite call or text this evening. I didn't send one either though.

 

----------------

A quick question: why does she suggest something like going out but then not ask it or try to make me take the bait? Then I'll say something like, ok are we hanging tonight and she'll say I hadn't thought about it, what do you want to do? It's like some little game. And if I say ok let's hang out, then she'll find a way to pull the deal off the table or move it to another night. What does this mean?

[paperchase]

 

you have to understand the influence of her mom and sorority sisters. She talks to her mom multiple times each day.

 

This is indicative of her 'enmeshment' with these women rather than a strong core of self-esteem. For some, it's more important to have the approval of the externals in her life rather than the two parties in the relationship.

 

 

I really believe there is truth to this. I know that others say if a person loves you they won't leave no matter what others say, but if that is the rule she is the exception because she seeks external approval more than anyone I know. I chalked it up to her youth and I told her that as she ages she will become more comfortable acting independently without the approval of others. I explained how really old people will say whatever is on their mind and not sugarcoat it, I believe, because they don't care as much a young folks about how they are perceived.

 

If our relationship is strong, she's with me to the exclusion of others. If she embraces others, there is a direct correlation with the weakening of our love and her pulling away. The funny thing is that none of her friends are in relationships but they all desperately want a man. They go to night clubs hoping to get "chose[n]" as the expression goes. How absurd. I'm wondering why you would take relationship advice from those who aren't in a relationship and haven't had any success in the regard.

 

Well, I appreciate you explaining that it's not my fault. I try not to blame myself but rejection has a way of raising doubt.

[sugarmomma]

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A quick question: why does she suggest something like going out but then not ask it or try to make me take the bait? Then I'll say something like, ok are we hanging tonight and she'll say I hadn't thought about it, what do you want to do? It's like some little game. And if I say ok let's hang out, then she'll find a way to pull the deal off the table or move it to another night. What does this mean?

 

 

Seems like she's making you more of an option instead of a priority. I would let it go since everything you guys do or don't do seems to be on her terms. Not goos for an equal mature relationship.

 

I don't think its her age as much as her unwillingness to make a comittment to you. I think there may be someone else in her ear. just my .02

[paperchase]

Seems like she's making you more of an option instead of a priority. I would let it go since everything you guys do or don't do seems to be on her terms. Not goos for an equal mature relationship.

 

I don't think its her age as much as her unwillingness to make a comittment to you. I think there may be someone else in her ear. just my .02

 

Hey sugarmomma, you have hit the nail on the head. I am no longer a top priority. Heck, even though she text me during the evening yesterday, she never called or sent an official good night text. She's making plans, but they are definitely on her terms and subject to change at a moment's notice. I haven't reacted to any of this, however, because I've seen this behavior before from her and I dealt with it all wrong by being clingy and desperately badgering her for an explanation....that was a year ago.

 

As for someone being in her ear, I think that is right on point too. It's not just someone though; it's everyone whose opinion she respects and whose approval she needs. It's just a lot to overcome it seems. I'm not sure if she's met someone else or not. My feeling is that most people don't pull away until they have a viable backup plan. When this happened a year ago she began to pull away in November 2008, by December we were barely having sex and by February 2009 she revealed she had a new BF. Then by April we were reconciling and by March we were on a tropical island together.

 

But the point is she began weaning herself off me and I was desperately trying to fix things. By the time she really made it clear things were over, she had a replacement and I was left holding the bag. I really don't want that to happen again. It hurt so much. I couldn't eat or sleep for weeks, I semi-stalked her (for which I am so embarrassed) to find answers and my entire world almost fell apart. I was going through some other things at the time that made the pressure almost insurmountable.

 

As soon as I pulled it together and got back my mojo, she returned saying all the right things on bended knee. I wish love were logical and I could explain to her why I think she feels the way she does and why her feelings are misguided. But I know that won't work to do anything but strengthen her resolve. It's like watching a big crash developing in slow motion. You can freeze the frame, but you are only delaying the inevitable. Once you eventually hit play again, the clip will have the same tragic ending.

[sugarmomma]

You have a responsibilty to yourself to protect yourself from ever being in that position again. I would let her go and consider not having her back. Its almost inevitable that when she finds someone she's hot for she will put you on the backburner until the next time.

 

You have to know that you deserve someone who won't play the push/pull game with you.

 

I play many games but not that one.

[paperchase]

You have a responsibilty to yourself to protect yourself from ever being in that position again. I would let her go and consider not having her back. Its almost inevitable that when she finds someone she's hot for she will put you on the backburner until the next time.

 

You have to know that you deserve someone who won't play the push/pull game with you.

 

I play many games but not that one.

 

The only surefire way I know to prevent vulnerability is to remain detached. I guess one could keep a woman on the side as a backup plan, but if you didn't like her as much, that wouldn't probably work either.

 

But yes, that feeling that if she could do better she would leave me is not very reassuring. Isn't this the way most people think, however? Not that they are constantly looking to upgrade, but I think most people would consider improving their situation if the opportunity presented itself, albeit the grass is often greener on the other side.

[myhearthurtsbadly]

I feel you paper chase and i know exactly what it feels like for them to be pulling away. The truth is there is nothing you can do about it. Same thing happened with me, she broke up with me when we got back to uni for the second year- "wanted to be single, be a 20 year old" which in other words means **** other boys. I begged and grovelled and got into a bad way, it was only when i manned up that she wanted me back. We are now back together and strong again (not sure how weve done it) but there is always that worry in the back of my mind that she will do it again. For this reason i am now considering ending things with her.

 

My advice to you is to play everything really cool. Go buy yourself some nice clothes something that will make her think "oh, thats different" when she sees you wearing them Try not speaking to her for a couple of days and i mean point blank ignoring her. If she runs to you then you definitly still have a chance with her. But if her response is to pull away even further then im afraid the days are numbered and you will have to end the relationship to limit pain to yourself. Theres no denying there is a large age gap between you, however im one of those people that believes if the love is there then nothing else matters. I really feel for you because i know exactly what its like to be waiting for a goodnight next, not getting it, but feeling you cant send one either. She is not giving her fair share to the relationship, sooner or later you will HAVE to realise this and know you deserve better. Good luck my friend.

[paperchase]

I feel you paper chase and i know exactly what it feels like for them to be pulling away. The truth is there is nothing you can do about it. Same thing happened with me, she broke up with me when we got back to uni for the second year- "wanted to be single, be a 20 year old" which in other words means **** other boys. I begged and grovelled and got into a bad way, it was only when i manned up that she wanted me back. We are now back together and strong again (not sure how weve done it) but there is always that worry in the back of my mind that she will do it again. For this reason i am now considering ending things with her.

 

My advice to you is to play everything really cool. Go buy yourself some nice clothes something that will make her think "oh, thats different" when she sees you wearing them Try not speaking to her for a couple of days and i mean point blank ignoring her. If she runs to you then you definitly still have a chance with her. But if her response is to pull away even further then im afraid the days are numbered and you will have to end the relationship to limit pain to yourself. Theres no denying there is a large age gap between you, however im one of those people that believes if the love is there then nothing else matters. I really feel for you because i know exactly what its like to be waiting for a goodnight next, not getting it, but feeling you cant send one either. She is not giving her fair share to the relationship, sooner or later you will HAVE to realise this and know you deserve better. Good luck my friend.

 

Wow, our situations do sound similar and your advice was well received. To update things, we have been seeing each other and dating but not every day like we used to. I've been playing it cool and her temperature changes day to day. I don't get the non-stop warm fuzzy I love yous but I do get them sometimes and the communication is daily and fairly constant. We have been intimate and she's not pulling back on that like she did the first time around. My sense is she doesn't have a new man in mind yet but she's definitely ambivalent about a long term future with me. She asked what we were (as in define our relationship) and I said I'm assuming we are bf and gf unless you tell me otherwise. She calls me at nights and most mornings to check up on me and clearly is somewhat concerned about whether I am being faithful. The night I posted that she didn't call, she called at 2am to say sorry and that she had fallen asleep.

 

As for me, my guy friends twisted my arm and made me go out with them and just talk to women. They said I had to approach at least 10 women that night and attempt to get their number. I did and walked away with 5 numbers. I was really surprised and it felt good. A part of me wants to pursue dating them so I'm not left holding the bag when my "gf" leaves me this time, but then again I don't want to cheat. I'm in a tough place because I'm having trust issues and I don't want to be blind to the signs since I've seen most of them before.

 

I'm having trouble getting a read though because it's day to day. I haven't seen any steps backward or forward really. It's like we are treading water and no rocking the boat. We went to a big concert last Wednesday that seemed to bring us closer but there's no big spark. Maybe I shouldn't be looking for one. I think she is always looking for magic and when it's not all head over heels she gets bored. I remember her saying once she knew that I was the one for her because for the first time in her life she wasn't looking but was content. I thought geeze, that's reassuring.