TaraMaiden Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'm not sure who advanced that idea of a middle ground. I think you'll find the Buddha might have a claim on that one, with regard to advocating the Middle Way....neither to live as an ascetic, nor to live to excess.... The Buddha stated that both extremes were pointless and did nothing to enhance or further one's spiritual foundation.... Though I agree, 52" plasma TVs are getting pretty cheap, so I'm sure it's okay to just have the one. Cheers, D. I'm sure you're right. But middle-of-the-day TV is crap, so maybe there's room for manoeuvre....! Link to post Share on other sites
Fouts Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Interestingly, nowhere in what you just mentioned is charity mandated or even encouraged though. The 10 Commandments is just a brief list of things you shouldn't do (as opposed to what you should) and how to go about worshipping god. The "deadly" sins are just a list of things you REALLY shouldn't do (all sins are equal before god, but some are more equal than others, perhaps?). Cheers, D. Living in excess and spending a disproportionate amount of disposable income on yourself would comfortably qualify as a sin of man. I'm not putting myself above anything D, just using the word of God as a guideline to define what I believe to be a true Christian and true Christian lifestyle. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I think you'll find the Buddha might have a claim on that one, with regard to advocating the Middle Way....neither to live as an ascetic, nor to live to excess.... Sorry, I should have emphasised the word "that". I was referring to Fouts' notion that a 52" plasma TV in every room somehow consituted a middle ground. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 just using the word of God as a guideline to define what I believe to be a true Christian and true Christian lifestyle. Should I ask for chapter and verse then? Or, which commandment relates to charity and/or spartan living? Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Author OpenBook Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 :D No plasma TVs in MY household, thank you very much! But the conundrum remains. My heart is telling me to keep spending the money on my family, like I've been doing. My brain is telling me to invest the money in my own retirement. The Bible says to tithe 10% to the church as a way of honoring God... and plus, none of it was ever mine to begin with - He can pour it down on me, and He can take it all away (as He has so eloquently illustrated to me and many others in this recent economic crisis). For this very reason, I also have trust issues with God. The Bible says to trust in God with all your heart, soul and mind, and lean not on your own understanding. It's futile to apply intellect to try to understand the things we do in the name of Love. (Oh boy, don't I know that one!!) But here I am, trying to analyze and rationalize the 10% tithing. So I guess this battle goes beyond my heart and brain. However - I am grateful for ALL the responses in this thread, every one of them. It's helping me sort through this. Thank you. And keep it coming, please! Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Sorry, I should have emphasised the word "that". I was referring to Fouts' notion that a 52" plasma TV in every room somehow consituted a middle ground. Cheers, D. Yes, sorry. Gotcha now..... Should have read more attentively. Ok, I withdraw the exposition. However.... 1. The first of the five hindrances is sensual craving, obsessive hankering for possessions or for the gratification of the senses. While the lay Buddhist will seek wealth and possessions as an integral part of mundane happiness, he will also be aware of the limits to be observed in their pursuit.He will recognize that if one obtains wealth and position by unjust means, or becomes excessively attached to them, they will become a source of misery and despair rather than of joy and contentment. Money alone cannot solve all our problems. Many people never learn this, and spend their time and energy accumulating wealth and the so-called "good things" it can buy. But in fact, the more they acquire the more they want. Such people can never find happiness. A lay Buddhist must be moderate in all things. Extreme desires — for riches, the enjoyment of sex, liquor, the ostentatious display of one's success — are sure signs of internal insecurity, things to be avoided. (AccesstoInsight.) I merely quote this passage because in a way, I'm expanding on the discussion. I'd be interested to see as intricately precise a passage within the Bible that says the same thing....? And remember, Buddhism precedes Christianity by about 500 years, give or take a decade..... Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 As an ex-Catholic, you probably know in advance that this is an unwinnable challenge. The Bible is, in general, very terse with its moral advice. "Do this" or "Don't do that" are about as detailed as it gets. It makes sense though. Why elaborate? Why would god feel the need to further explain and justify himself to us when, according to the whole premise, just telling us is more than sufficient. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 As an ex-Catholic, you probably know in advance that this is an unwinnable challenge. The Bible is, in general, very terse with its moral advice. "Do this" or "Don't do that" are about as detailed as it gets. Actually - sincerely - it was a genuine question. I'm truly wondering where, in either the new or the old testaments, it might actually be as clear and succinct as this.... The passage gives direction and reasoning, by illustrating results and consequences. Can't remember anything in the Bible which is similarly as elaborate, but I'd be interested to know what, if anything, there is..... It makes sense though. Why elaborate? Why would god feel the need to further explain and justify himself to us when, according to the whole premise, just telling us is more than sufficient. Cheers, D. If it was that sufficient, we'd have more people looking at the commandments as directives, rather than suggestions.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author OpenBook Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 Okay people, I've decided I'm going to do this here thing... starting this Sunday, I'm tithing 10% of my net weekly paycheck to the church. I feel like I'm hanging my @ss out a good long way on this one. This is a huge leap of faith for me. And I come from the camp of "No good deed will go unpunished" - so I'm bracing myself for the suffering. My faith in Him is definitely NOT where it needs to be! I still have a lot of doubts and fears about this. But I'm going to do it anyway. Because I know that God rescued me from certain financial ruin last fall; there is no other way to explain what happened to get me back on my feet. (It was downright spooky, how it happened!!) And I've lived long enough to see that He's the one in charge of all this - not me. A lot of things are still up in the air right now re: my career and property/financial life. Nothing is a sure or permanent thing; and tomorrow holds no guarantees. But today, right now, I'm good. I've got a roof over my head, and I'm making good money. And so I'm doing this as a way of honoring Him. He is my only hope. I'll let you know what happens. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 he's the one in charge, huh? Whatever happened to 'Free Will'....? Luke 19:46. When I look at the disparity between Poverty, Chastity and Obedience, and the enormous, ostentatious, vulgar, obscene and excessive wealth of the Roman Catholic Church, (and indeed all Head Churches) I have a feeling I know whom Christ was talking about. Link to post Share on other sites
wuggle Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 I have a feeling I know whom Christ was talking about. Would that be a bit like when he threw them out of the temple for mixing financial issues and spirituality ? Okay people, I've decided I'm going to do this here thing... starting this Sunday, I'm tithing 10% of my net weekly paycheck to the church. A laudable thing to do, but might I suggest an alternative to avoid ANY issues about corruption or any of the other issues raised in this thread ? Instead of giving the money to the church, why not put aside this 10%, then when you get time buy some food yourself and give it to some poor or homeless people, spend some time investigating various charities and see which ones are actually making a difference on the ground and give to them, or to do the whole thing properly, why not give 10% of your time instead\as well to these sort of charities. Just a thought Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 The Bible says Christians should contribute 10% of their income to the church as a tithe. The promise God made when He asked for this is that we will be abundantly blessed, and He even went so far as to say, "You can test Me on this." So for all the Christians out there - as well as those who follow other religions where tithing is part of their worship - do you adhere to this instruction? And how exactly do you calculate 10% of your income? Is it 10% of net, or gross? Do you also include other forms of income besides your job - like, gifts? Stock valuations? Capital gains? Increase in market value of your house or other property? What happens if the value decreases? Do you adjust your tithing for decreases as well as increases? OP...this is a great topic! I just give what God tells me, most of the time it is more than 10%...I have a cool story concerning giving.... I had quit tithing and God was dealing with me in this area. Last year was an extreme transitional year for me in all areas. I had to go out on medical leave and halfway through it realised I wasn't getting any better (in fact worse). There was a real possibility that I would have no income at all shortly if certain things did not go through...I had no choice though...TBN was having a praise-a-thon and God told me to give to it regularly. During this time I had turned into a miser, not spending a dime on extras, only bare necessities to save money in the event that I would have none...so I decided to be obedient, and not expecting anything from God, just being obedient (for a change...lol)...so I gave a rather large amount (for me) monthly. To GODS glory He caused everything to come through...I mean I was going through hell and back, being told this, that and everything under the sun concerning what would happen to me as an early medical retiree... What happened to me was literally a miracle, due to obedience concerning tithing... (((((OpenBook))))) Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 As an ex-Catholic, you probably know in advance that this is an unwinnable challenge. The Bible is, in general, very terse with its moral advice. "Do this" or "Don't do that" are about as detailed as it gets. It makes sense though. Why elaborate? Why would god feel the need to further explain and justify himself to us when, according to the whole premise, just telling us is more than sufficient. Cheers, D. Wow D. this is the first I've heard of you being ex-Catholic(I am sure you have communicated this in the past, although I do not come to this forum too much)....me too...I was raised as such and enjoyed it...in adulthood (if that's what you would call me) have changed my views, although treasure my background. I visit many churches, and have been led to the Vinyard once again, as I always seem to end up there... I have read some of what you post and you seem way cool...have a good day! Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 No, he was replying to me. I'm the "ex-Catholic" he's referring to..... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Okay people, I've decided I'm going to do this here thing... starting this Sunday, I'm tithing 10% of my net weekly paycheck to the church. I feel like I'm hanging my @ss out a good long way on this one. This is a huge leap of faith for me. And I come from the camp of "No good deed will go unpunished" - so I'm bracing myself for the suffering. My faith in Him is definitely NOT where it needs to be! I still have a lot of doubts and fears about this. But I'm going to do it anyway. Because I know that God rescued me from certain financial ruin last fall; there is no other way to explain what happened to get me back on my feet. (It was downright spooky, how it happened!!) And I've lived long enough to see that He's the one in charge of all this - not me. A lot of things are still up in the air right now re: my career and property/financial life. Nothing is a sure or permanent thing; and tomorrow holds no guarantees. But today, right now, I'm good. I've got a roof over my head, and I'm making good money. And so I'm doing this as a way of honoring Him. He is my only hope. I'll let you know what happens. Go for it ...as I stated in my previous answer to your op....I did not go into the total exact nature of how God blessed me due to feeling arrogant and boastful...let's put it this way...what happened only God could do. I briefly read a few posts...personally I would suggest unless your church is a total "tea party" give to your church...if you are being fed there then give there. Some churches "play church"....I give to the Vinyard (it is not the Vinyard that freaked out, they split from them), because I am fed there and TBN because I am totally fed there and they get out and spread the gospel...also there is a great operation concerning the gifts and prophetic. The Vinyard is such a contrast from how I actually operate in the Spirit...although I was really blessed to see them last week operate in the Prophetic.... Good fortune OpenBook! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 No, he was replying to me. I'm the "ex-Catholic" he's referring to..... No way Tara....wow Sorry D. My apologies, I should have read the entire thread...it's late for me. Hey Tara, hope OB won't mind for the slight tj....just wanted to tell you, my Parakeet had babies last week...I think 5 or more...they are all doing well and I'm keeping them warm. I won't touch them because I don't want to stress out the mother...she is stressed enough with the babies....OMG that poor mother, those babies are up every hour, they wake me up as I have them with me in my bedroom (it's the warmest/ calmest room in the house. All of the other birds are helping her.... Cool huh! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I forgot to give you a hug Tara, I haven't talked to you in a long time....((((huggggsss)))! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Just like a whore and a hero, everyone's definition is different, including that of a true Christian. Atheists and Satanists can have good hearts and live a philanthropic lifestyle. A Christian by my definition needs to live their life in accordance to the 10 commandments and avoid the 7 deadly sins in addition to the other attributes I mentioned. Just my opinion, not opening up a religious debate FTR....I love your avatar....Pirates of the Caribbean was one of my favorite movies, all three of them... (Bold) ahhhh come on, it would be a good discussion...no? OK, unless you change your mind I will respect your statement. Take care Fouts...I like the way you speak and if you change your mind let's do a thread....ok...you sound reasonable and non controlling. Link to post Share on other sites
Author OpenBook Posted April 17, 2010 Author Share Posted April 17, 2010 OK, I'm tithing 10% of my hefty tax return this weekend... Oooooooouuuuuuuuchhhh!!!! ... I'm praying: "Lord I feel like I'm nuts for doing this." The reply - every time: "Trust Me. Just trust in Me." [OpenBook takes a really deep breath, and blows out a really long sigh...] Breathe in, breathe out. Link to post Share on other sites
Rorschach Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 *disclaimer I didn't read the whole thread* I'm relgious, but I'm also a financial advisor, I work with people showing them where their money goes, and I'm telling you from experience. In the middle class, if people gave 10% of their money to the church, they'd be broke. NOBODY out there can afford 10% (well, none of the middle class that I work with anyway, maybe some uppers/lowers) generally speaking the middle class lives on 10-20% of their gross income, the rest goes out to debt, taxes, insurance, and retirement. If you gave 10% on top of that to the church everybody would be poor. Link to post Share on other sites
Author OpenBook Posted April 17, 2010 Author Share Posted April 17, 2010 Oh I'm watching it like a hawk Rorschach. Every penny. Maybe that's the secret of tithing... you get so careful about money you actually start accumulating some!! Link to post Share on other sites
Rorschach Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 Maybe, but I'm just saying, if people gave 10% of their money to the church, they wouldn't be able to feed their families. Of course most of the time thats because their in debt up to their eyeballs but still want to go buy 2 new cars and a bigger house. So it's completely their fault. But there is no magical 10% for the church in peoples budgets. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 Maybe, but I'm just saying, if people gave 10% of their money to the church, they wouldn't be able to feed their families. Of course most of the time thats because their in debt up to their eyeballs but still want to go buy 2 new cars and a bigger house. So it's completely their fault. But there is no magical 10% for the church in peoples budgets. That's assuming they are just starting and have to find the 10%. If it has been their lifestyle all along then its just a matter of what pressure they we succumb to. The belief that God wants them to give their first ten percent or the want for a better car/house/clothes, the Angus/$6 burger rather then the quarter pounder. After all people make 10% more then me and people make 10% less then me and we all feed our families. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 I give 10% of my gross income, though I have been told by my Pastor that it means net income. I also don't give exclusively to my church. It says to the up building of God's kingdom. That means taking care of those in need. So I give to charities, groups and individuals. Depends on the immediate need I see. It took me a long time to grow in my faith to give 10%. I like so many have stated, wanted to know where the money was going and if some jack leg preacher was pocketing it. Then my very wise grandma told me that it wasn't up to me to decide where the money goes, just up to me to give it in faith that it would get to where it needed to be. Not sure she was right..but it sounded good:D Yes she is very, very wise ...and you know you can only do so much "homework", at some point a person just has to trust that whoever you (not "you" in particular) give to is going to do the right thing...as they are accountable. Link to post Share on other sites
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