Reformed other women

[jennie-jennie]

I am curious about why some other women, at least it seems so to me, completely change their minds and opinions about the affair once it is over. I can't believe that the former other women who are posting here on LS about all MM being liars and manipulators and having sex all the time with their wives and NC being the only way etc believed this while they were still actively in the affair.

 

My own thinking is that if you are not grounded enough in yourself during the affair, you might have to rethink it all afterwards. Or your MM might have been one of the MM who actually has purposely fooled you and lied to you, I do understand those exist. Or...

 

If you are one of these women who has changed her mind, I would be interested to hear why.

 

This is how I see it. I did drugs when I was young. I would never do it again. I can see all the dangers and bad consequences of it now. But I can sure as hell admit that I had fun while I did it!

[califnan]

It's an Addiction .. Once one finds herself, she tries to work her way out of it .. The reversal of the drawing-in, can take time ..

[jennie-jennie]

It's an Addiction .. Once one finds herself, she tries to work her way out of it .. The reversal of the drawing-in, can take time ..

 

For the sexual addict, yes, but for the woman in love it is no more an addiction than any love relationship. And as I was saying above, even the addict does not have to completely change opinions about what he/she was doing, even if they decide not to continue.

[Brokenlady]

JJ,

Affairs usually end for a reason, and that reason usually is that the MM gets caught and throws the OW under the bus. Rightly or wrongly, most OW are suprised by this, and incredibly hurt. When someone you love and think you know very well does something completely unexpected and hurtful, it can't help but change your view on them. It seems to me that the same is true for BS's - nothing is quite ever the same. So, since the OW usually ends up alone, it seems to me that she has the distance from the situation to see things more clearly and usually the circumstances of the A ending are unplesant enough to cast a shadow over the whole thing.

[califnan]

For the sexual addict, yes, but for the woman in love it is no more an addiction than any love relationship. And as I was saying above, even the addict does not have to completely change opinions about what he/she was doing, even if they decide not to continue.

 

Jennie: I Am talking about a woman who is In Love with the wrong man .. It is a trap, an addiction .. Only when the OW finds herself, can she gradually work her way out of the relationship - In the spirit .(from within) . ..

[jennie-jennie]

I didn't change my mind about the affair at all. I knew it was wrong when I got into it, just as you probably knew drugs were wrong when you tried them.

 

I have lived and learned, and have just tried to relay what I learned from my experience.

 

Nope, I believed it was wrong that it was not up to every person to choose whether to do drugs or not, that drugs should not be illegal, that the illegality was causing a lot of the problems associated with drugs.

 

Nowadays I don't bother too much to have any opinion at all about drugs, except that I know that while there are pros the cons outweigh them in the long run.

 

So are you saying that during the affair you believed NC was the right thing to do and that it was easy to do, but you did not do it? Or is this something you learnt?

[jennie-jennie]

It's an Addiction .. Once one finds herself, she tries to work her way out of it .. The reversal of the drawing-in, can take time ..

 

Jennie: I Am talking about a woman who is In Love with the wrong man .. It is a trap, an addiction .. Only when the OW finds herself, can she gradually work her way out of the relationship - In the spirit .(from within) . ..

 

Califnan, I think I know what you are talking about. I would not call it addiction though. But falling in love with the wrong man, I can understand that. But then one should be careful not to generalize the lesson learnt for all men. Not all MM are the wrong man to be in love with.

[pureinheart]

Hi Jennie...excellent question.

 

This is much food here...lol...me and a friend used to email back and forth referring to knowledge as food and when we were partaking of the "food" would call it "chewing"...so I am chewing here..lol and I think you for the opportunity to explore the exact nature of how this happened to me, and where my head was at at the time.

 

I really have never liked being single and shy away from being hit on, meaning I don't like attention in that manor, it makes me uncomfortable. I have been known to gain weight and not wear make up (don't use much anyway).

 

People handle pain different based on their experiences, knowledge and desire to receive knowledge (councelling). ExDM and myself were both vulnerable, and when I realized that he was "safe" (what defines safe is an entire different subject), that is when I began to trust him. At that time he was trustworthy.

 

This was an EA (Emotional Affair). Some said we acted like bother and sister, although we had each others backs all of the time...this was very real. When I started to change and realize I wanted more, that was the beginning of not liking how things were. He became fearful of loosing me and did not want a D for whatever reason (only God knows). Then the manipulation started...and I did my fare share also.

 

There are many questions as of which the truth may never be known and there is an acceptance of that.

 

Fast forward to him being separated now, he became extremely abusive...as to why I don't know, there are many possibilities. Having racked my brain for answers has just been fruitless, once again only God knows...I began not to care about his wellbeing and focused on me more.

 

Just want to throw this in there...everytime I have tried to gather info, get the truth etc. most of the time it is a waste of time, precious time that could be used for something more productive.

 

Did he see me as weak and vulnerable...hey I was, had just returned from a devasting experience in VA, had been cheated on so severely that it is amazing I am not a man hater...Did he bait me? Was I using him too? He let me think he wanted a D in the beginning...

 

Jennie, I have still not put it all together, although there will never be a full disclosure of the truth as I would like. One fact is clear...he lied about his intentions and I had a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that he would lie to me. I really didn't think he would lie to me and I know this sounds weird, but that is what the thought was then.

 

As you can see there is still an unraveling, a wavering in me...one thing is for sure I never want to go through this again...I avoided MM like the plague and don't understand why I let all the truth I walked in fly right out the door with him.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, I have still not put it all together, although there will never be a full disclosure of the truth as I would like. One fact is clear...he lied about his intentions and I had a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that he would lie to me. I really didn't think he would lie to me and I know this sounds weird, but that is what the thought was then.

 

Pure, I think that is a humble way to look at it. We will never have the whole truth when it comes to another person. We will try as best we can to understand why they did this or that to put our minds at peace.

[BB07]

I can only speak for myself and my personal experience.

 

I'm not sorry that I fell in love with this particular man, I still love him very much and some part of me believes that we were meant to be together and we are, but it's been a long hard road and the hard part isn't over yet.

 

Being the OW was very painful and it cut into my self esteem and made me question almost everything about myself and him also. (I still don't have all the answers.) I felt guilt and still do at times. In some ways it was the darkest time of my life, but yet in other ways it was wonderful, if that makes any sense. Sometimes it seems I'm a lot more forgiving of others than I am myself.

[jennie-jennie]

I can only speak for myself and my personal experience.

 

I'm not sorry that I fell in love with this particular man, I still love him very much and some part of me believes that we were meant to be together and we are, but it's been a long hard road and the hard part isn't over yet.

 

Being the OW was very painful and it cut into my self esteem and made me question almost everything about myself and him also. (I still don't have all the answers.) I felt guilt and still do at times. In some ways it was the darkest time of my life, but yet in other ways it was wonderful, if that makes any sense. Sometimes it seems I'm a lot more forgiving of others than I am myself.

 

It makes perfect sense, BB. Life and love are complicated.

[OWoman]

I find the phenomenon rather like those hectic born again christians, who feel the need to "testify" about how really awful they used to be, to contrast that with their "new" lives, as some kind of "witness" to the power of salvation. It's as if just having led a normal, ordinary life beforehand would not have been good enough - so they have to paint themselves in the most extreme colours to show just how really bad they used to be before they were "saved". It's self-loathing of the strongest possible kind.

 

You see the same thing with reformed smokers, too - they're the ones putting on the loud, fake coughs and acting grossed out if they see someone else smoking; they're the ones on a mission to "save" others from the "sin" that they see being committed. Normal people are more rational about it, but the reformed mentality is all about denouncing and distance.

 

It reminds me a little of those people who benefit from affirmative action programmes or special measures who then speak out vehemently against those when they get into positions of power - essentially denying anyone who might follow them the same opportunities they once had. Perhaps this reformed OW self-hatred is also just another way of pulling the ladder up behind themselves?

[BB07]

It makes perfect sense, BB. Life and love are complicated.

 

 

I think I forgot to answer your question in your original post. duh.

 

I'm not sorry that I love him, nor will I ever be sorry of that, regardless of how it works out. If................for some reason he and I aren't together in 5 or 10 years, would I ever contemplate seeing another MM. I am about 98% sure the answer would be NO. I've learned to never say never, but yet I'm very confident that I would not. It's much too risky and too painful.

[OWoman]

Oh - and, to add - it's also a form of denying responsibility for one's actions. By creating this other, flawed, broken persona who used to do all these evil things, and distancing themselves from that, they are putting as much distance between themselves and their actions as they can - so as to claim, it wasn't me, it was some deluded / young / misled / naive version of myself who can't possibly be held accountable for what happened! I'm someone completely else, now - look at me! I'd never do anything like that now.... as opposed to those of us who own and are not ashamed of what we've done in our lives, because those make us who we are (and we're happy and comfortable with that, and not in denial about any part of our history).

[BB07]

Normal people are more rational about it, but the reformed mentality is all about denouncing and distance.

 

Perhaps this reformed OW self-hatred is also just another way of pulling the ladder up behind themselves?

 

 

I think you might be on to something there OWoman. It's human nature to try to find some peace in our own minds about past troubling events and sometimes it's easier to get to that place when we throw our anger at the other party involved and make them the lying, cheating asshats, even if they weren't.

 

Perhaps they were just very troubled men who didn't have the strength of character and the gonads to do what their heart truly desired. Possibly some of them were/are in love with both women and can't make up their mind.

 

It's sometimes easier to convince ourselves that the other person is a total and complete asshat sometimes. It makes the anger, the hurt more justifiable and at little bit easier to get past if you are able to say they are more flawed than you.

[jennie-jennie]

as opposed to those of us who own and are not ashamed of what we've done in our lives, because those make us who we are (and we're happy and comfortable with that, and not in denial about any part of our history).

 

This is what I think too. If I have my eyes open today and know that I am choosing actively to be where I am at, then why would I regret it in the future? I might realize that with more information I had made a different choice, but since that was not my reality it really does not matter.

[pureinheart]

I find the phenomenon rather like those hectic born again christians, who feel the need to "testify" about how really awful they used to be, to contrast that with their "new" lives, as some kind of "witness" to the power of salvation. It's as if just having led a normal, ordinary life beforehand would not have been good enough - so they have to paint themselves in the most extreme colours to show just how really bad they used to be before they were "saved". It's self-loathing of the strongest possible kind.

 

You see the same thing with reformed smokers, too - they're the ones putting on the loud, fake coughs and acting grossed out if they see someone else smoking; they're the ones on a mission to "save" others from the "sin" that they see being committed. Normal people are more rational about it, but the reformed mentality is all about denouncing and distance.

 

It reminds me a little of those people who benefit from affirmative action programmes or special measures who then speak out vehemently against those when they get into positions of power - essentially denying anyone who might follow them the same opportunities they once had. Perhaps this reformed OW self-hatred is also just another way of pulling the ladder up behind themselves?

 

Self righteousness?

[jj33]

Jennie I am not sure if you are referring to me but I know I do come down hard in favor of NC etc sometimes. I think its complicated for a lot of reasons.

 

You are in control of your emotions and your situatoin. Many of the posters post stories where they are being seriuosly jerked around taken for a ride and the advice is about them in their situatoin. It has nothing to do with what happened between me and the person I was involved with.

 

My view of xMM has changed in the time since we split because he has behaved in ways that make no sense to any sane human being unless you chalk it up to the fact that he is frustrated by the fact that he cant have his cake and eat it too. But that is not good enough in my view and doesnt excuse his actions. So yes sometimes I am sorry I ever got involved because the cost I have paid since its ended has been very very high and there is no reason for it.

 

And its something I never expected. He is a serial adulterer. He should know the "rules". They arent much different whether you are single or married but you dont mess with ex lovers in the workplace - not if you follow the unspoken rules of end of relationship etiquette.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie I am not sure if you are referring to me but I know I do come down hard in favor of NC etc sometimes. I think its complicated for a lot of reasons.

 

You are in control of your emotions and your situatoin. Many of the posters post stories where they are being seriuosly jerked around taken for a ride and the advice is about them in their situatoin. It has nothing to do with what happened between me and the person I was involved with.

 

My view of xMM has changed in the time since we split because he has behaved in ways that make no sense to any sane human being unless you chalk it up to the fact that he is frustrated by the fact that he cant have his cake and eat it too. But that is not good enough in my view and doesnt excuse his actions. So yes sometimes I am sorry I ever got involved because the cost I have paid since its ended has been very very high and there is no reason for it.

 

And its something I never expected. He is a serial adulterer. He should know the "rules". They arent much different whether you are single or married but you dont mess with ex lovers in the workplace - not if you follow the unspoken rules of end of relationship etiquette.

 

Not referring to you at all, jj. We can all have opinions and they may differ. And I see nothing strange with realizing that your MM was not who you thought he was.

 

I think OWoman's comparison to the born again Christians is descriptive. If you don't want to listen to their message, then you are fooling yourself, not wanting to see the truth and condemned forever. It is very difficult to have a discussion when someone else owns the truth.

[pureinheart]

This is what I think too. If I have my eyes open today and know that I am choosing actively to be where I am at, then why would I regret it in the future? I might realize that with more information I had made a different choice, but since that was not my reality it really does not matter.

 

After soul searching I don't regret the experience at all, in fact regret that I lost the person I once knew...whether it was a lie, meaning not really him, but a split personality, or not...he was my best friend, one of the only men I have trusted. I was in shock seeing what transpired and was unable to believe it was happening.

 

Wow, I feel forgiveness taking place.

 

I knew his M was over and remember the turning point for our R. A co-worker who was in an A (he was a MM although was crazy about another co-worker, they had seen each other off and on throughout the years), had a long talk with exDM, I believe he painted the true picture, meaning he laid it out and mostlikely asked exDM if he could handle D and all of the possibilities that accompany it.

 

He changed, just like that and I felt "thrown under the bus"...better go back to your other thread Jennie...lol...this was about 4 mo I think into the EA. Our R was never good after that.

 

Then as a final stab, a very good friend of mine, who had been M for 42 yrs was all of a sudden going through D...exDM really started tripping after that.

 

Could haves, should haves, would haves get me nowhere, right?

[jennie-jennie]

Wow, I feel forgiveness taking place.

 

Forgiveness is so good. Resentment is heaviest for the person who carries it.

[jj33]

Pure in Heart you put that really well. I regret losing the person I once knew. Its really awful to sit in front of the clone that he shows me in his place. Stiff wooden describing the facts in front of him as if he were on LSD... its weird and strange and sad.

 

He takes everday occurences and ascribes meaning to them that noone else knowing the underlying facts would and tells me I am wrong when I say no, the reason that x was y... when of course any fool knows I am wrong. But he refuses to acknowledge that the past has any bearing on the present.

 

I know this is his coping strategy but its like dealing with a delusional person.

 

Anyway I agree with OWoman. People who feel like they have seen the light are sometimes evangelical about it.

 

As for me, had he been better at having an A, Id still be in it. He just sucked at having an affair and sucks at dealing with the aftermath.

 

I used to say it was me who was in over my head, I now realize its him. He just didnt know what he was dealing with when he started with me. He thought I was like all the others and I wasnt.

[moaningmyrtle]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread as I saw it was directed at "some OW"; ie those that changed their minds after the A was over. Then I saw that not all posters are in that category anyway; so I may as well have my say.

 

I think the good old Occam's razor can be applied here to any psycho-babble used to explain this apparent change of heart.

 

The simple explanation is that the aftermath of an A is so horrible to most OW (despite occasionally enjoying the A while it was ongoing) that they would not willingly do it again and would in good conscience try to discourage anyone else, about to go down that path.

 

This is one overwhelming lesson I take from the OW/OM forum, but of course I am a BW so I already know it (even though I didn't before). The unfortunate thing is, I've concluded, that it's one of those lessons one learns only from experience. Former OW whose As have ended badly, know it as do BWs. OWs still in As do not know it and simply cannot know it and so do not believe it.

[whichwayisup]

So JJ are you saying it's wrong for an OW or OM to change after their affair experience? To change their views completely? Or because someone is an OW or OM, and the A ends, they MUST still have the same views? I'm just honestly curious..

[StoptheDrama]

In my case it's not about changing my mind, it's about clarity and seeing the relationship for what it was. If my xMM was truly the man he had pretended to be, the man I cared for, our situation would be very different.