Reformed other women

[Got it]

{{Ladydesigner}}, I am sorry for any pain that you are in.

[nadiaj2727]

I am curious about why some other women, at least it seems so to me, completely change their minds and opinions about the affair once it is over.

 

If you are one of these women who has changed her mind, I would be interested to hear why.

 

 

I am "one of these women" and for me it is just that I learned a lot from my mistakes and feel like I grew a lot emotionally and "spiritually" (?) as a result of doing a lot of analysis into why I made those choices. "Spiritually" is the best way I can say it... I was not a religious person when I was involved in the affair and I am not a religious person now. But I learned a lot of things about who I was and who I wanted to be, that I guess would be called morals, values, lifestyles, whatever. Things like, that my actions don't just affect me, that I must take responsibility for my actions and not blame circumstances/ other people, that emotions and actions are different and I should think things through before I act, that real love is more of an action than a feeling, etc. etc. etc.

 

So some may read what I write (or wrote, in the past... I'm rarely on here anymore) as preachy or self-righteous or whatever but I don't care, I just learned a lot and I guess the only way I could deal with all the hurt and pain I inflicted on a lot of people as well as on myself was to deal with it this way... to learn and to grow and to feel that I am a better person now than the person I was when I had embarked on the affair. It was very hard for me to admit that I had gotten myself into such a bad place, and to start climbing out of it, so for me, yes, my affair was a lot like your analogy to drugs... in some ways I feel like the affair and xOM were my drug and I conquered that part of myself that needed that, the part that was weak and co-dependent and selfish, and for that I am proud, and I don't care what other people have to say about that.

 

I don't think it's a bad thing to be a "reformed" other woman at all... for me it feels much much better than being a "current" or unreformed or whatever other woman. Even when I was an OW reading on this board the things the "reformed" OWs or non-OWs said made a lot more sense to me than the things the OWs said, so I just feel like I knew I was going against my values when I was in the affair but I didn't know for awhile how to admit that and start living the way I knew I wanted to be living. So I am really glad for the non-OWs here because I feel like some OWs, like me at the time, really need to hear the things they have to say, at that point in the journey. So thank you reformed and non-OWs. (I know there are some that are purposefully nasty and mean... but it always seemed to me like MOST are well-intentioned and just trying to help or to show the other perspective).

 

Just my .02.

[White Flower]

Want to interject on my own post...using the term ugly...am referring to me and my past situations...noone on LS...

 

I re-read it and thought OMG I don't want anyone to take this wrong because it could sound bad...

You are always so careful to be kind pure. You're a gem!

[White Flower]

Or you can listen to only certain people on LS and for the others, put your hands over your ears and say, "La la la, I can't hear youuuu!"

I listen to them all and take what benefits me including that of rOW, BS, fOW, MM and current OW. I only say 'la, la, la' to those who don't make sense.

[White Flower]

I am "one of these women"

Hey Nadia! Long time no see, how are you? And it took guts to post here after so many remarks were made about rOWs. Good for you, I'm glad you stayed strong!

 

It was very hard for me to admit that I had gotten myself into such a bad place, and to start climbing out of it, so for me, yes, my affair was a lot like your analogy to drugs... in some ways I feel like the affair and xOM were my drug and I conquered that part of myself that needed that, the part that was weak and co-dependent and selfish, and for that I am proud, and I don't care what other people have to say about that.

Was he an OM? I thought you were single and he was a MM?

[pureinheart]

Backatcha...lol...you guys are the gems in my book, you all carry yourselves with such dignity and class...I have learned much..

[pureinheart]

Yes they are very wise words. I am on board with this POV as well. Thanks for that pureinheart. This will help me let go of my anger as my XOM heart just was not in the right place. Thank you I feel I have gained an acceptance for my situation.

 

Wow LD, it wasn't till I read Got it's post that I truely understood that you were dealing with so much...I am sooo glad that you are feeling a little better though...we try to be strong, we try to understand, although sometimes there are no reasonable answers, so we just have to believe in who we are .

[OWoman]

I cannot stand reformed people. Addicts, Born Again Christians, etc. I dont like the rhetoric basically because all of them have hit rock bottom usually in the form of addiction or jail prior to becoming reformed. Then, they insist on telling those they consider not reformed how to become like them. Hey, how about I just dont hit rock bottom like you? How about I clearly have not made your mistakes so ummm...I'm really not interested in your advice? I dont need to be born again to not screw up my life like you did. (Just an example, and may or may not reflect my religious beliefs)

 

Yeah I was like that. But NOW I am: Reformed OW.

And people here who have not been OW or BS ...are just like me when I tell converts that I dont need them to guide me with a moral compass to know I shouldnt be a drug addict or a criminal. I know these things without having done them.

 

As Reformed OW, I tell you all: That Way Lies Evil

 

2sure I think this is an interesting allegory, but IMO it falls down on one critical difference:

 

In your comparison, the "2sure" character feels that they don't need the conversion experience to reach the place of enlightenment that the convert has reached, since she is already there (without the need for the detour through crime or drugs). You liken this to unOWs who do not feel the need for the reform process that the ROW preaches, since they are already in the place of "enlightenment" without the need for the detour via an A.

 

However - in the first example, the convert does not regard the "2sure" character as "saved", thus enlightened; "2sure" is as much a target for their evangelism as is any old druggie or criminal. Everyone except converts are lost in evil and in need of redemption. The experience of redemption is what matters, for this group.

 

In the OW example, the ROW find common cause with the unOWs, and thus regard only the OWs as in need of enlightenment and redemption - disregarding the validity of any fOW experience that does not tally with their own. To them, it's not the need for conversion that matters - it's simply that anyone who disagrees with their POV - whether or not their experience has equal validity - is wrong. The agreement on an opinion (THEIR opinion) as truth is what matters, for this group.

 

As others have stated before on this thread, it becomes very difficult to have a conversation when one group lays claim to The Truth.

[donnamaybe]

I listen to them all and take what benefits me including that of rOW, BS, fOW, MM and current OW. I only say 'la, la, la' to those who don't make sense.

 

I know YOU do WF. And if any of my opinions rub you the wrong way, I'm sorry because that is NOT my intention, but they are my opinions, and I am entitled to them, just as you and everyone else are entitled to theirs.

[OWoman]

I know YOU do WF. And if any of my opinions rub you the wrong way, I'm sorry because that is NOT my intention, but they are my opinions, and I am entitled to them, just as you and everyone else are entitled to theirs.

 

.... and for those who don't like the opinions of people that don't agree with them, there's always the iggy button...

[donnamaybe]

.... and for those who don't like the opinions of people that don't agree with them, there's always the iggy button...

 

Right on.

 

I have no problem with people having an opinion. It would be a very dull world if we all thought the same.

[2sure]

OWoman -

 

Oh yes, I see the conflict in my example and completely agree with your description of it...its the same conflict I have within me really.

 

For me, the whole process of NOT particpating in infidelity, not being an OW was a learned thing. Now I know its a bad idea, I learned this through experience. I have to say that I really do think its a bad idea for anyone to do...and my reasons why are the same as someone who Never did it.

[donnamaybe]

I think what may make some people irritated is someone who comes across as "I'm better than you because..." I can understand the irritation there. However, I have also seen people who come across, to me at least, as "I feel I'm in a better place than you because..." and they still are attacked.

[OWoman]

OWoman -

 

Oh yes, I see the conflict in my example and completely agree with your description of it...its the same conflict I have within me really.

 

For me, the whole process of NOT particpating in infidelity, not being an OW was a learned thing. Now I know its a bad idea, I learned this through experience. I have to say that I really do think its a bad idea for anyone to do...and my reasons why are the same as someone who Never did it.

 

Now, on that (bolded) bit I'd disagree with you. I think it's really bad for some people, that it's kind of a neutral experience for others, and for some it can be a really positive experience. It depends on who and where they are, what they're wanting, etc. Allegory alert: I guess I'd say it was like using cannabis. For some, it can lead down a path to destruction, for others, it can be something they did, outgrew, and moved on from; and for some others it can be really positive - alleviating pain and nausea (for certain terminal patients), or stimulating an appetite (for anorexics) or opening up creative possibilities they'd have difficulty accessing otherwise (for artists, musicians, etc)... There is no one size fits all.

 

Someone's circumstances can predispose the outcome to be "more likely positive" or "more likely negative", but it's really hard to predict from the outside with certainty which way something would go at the outset. Over time one can see how something is developing, or one could listen carefully to what the person is saying about their experience, but using only one's own experience as a ground rule leaves the possibility that it simply doesn't apply in that other person's case.

 

Which is my issue with the ROW chorus. Like the evangelicals, they really do see it as The Truth, The Only Way - even where there are other people whose lives prove otherwise. They simply can't see, can't accept that their truth isn't the only truth. But for some people, it genuinely isn't.

 

I could not, in all honesty, tell an OW "don't do it" simply based on my experiences. I've never had a negative experience in an A, whatever their outcomes, and my last A had the "fairy tale" ending a number of OW hope for. It would be hypocritical of me to do so, when clearly As can be positive, and can work out well and wonderfully.

 

However, it would also be short-sighted of me to tell any prospective OW "Do it!" on the basis of my own experience. Many As don't work out, many OWs suffer, and not every woman is cut out to be an OW. For me to advise one way or the other, I'd need to look beyond my own experience to the OW herself - to see what she wants, where she's at, what her circumstances are that might help or hinder what she's hoping to get... and to caution her, whichever way I advise her, on the risks of going for it / not going for it / whatever other options there are. There are always advantages and disadvantages on all sides - and speaking for myself, I like to make well-informed decisions that take consideration of all the factors, so that I'm as well prepared for possible outcomes as I can be - so that's the approach I take.

 

I can't chain myself to a rock and howl a constant tune to any passing travellers, because that to me would lack integrity and authenticity, knowing what I know and having experienced what I've lived through. I need to start with the OP themself, not from my own history, for me to be able to do it without feeling fake.

[OWoman]

I think what may make some people irritated is someone who comes across as "I'm better than you because..." I can understand the irritation there. However, I have also seen people who come across, to me at least, as "I feel I'm in a better place than you because..." and they still are attacked.

 

Denoting it as a "better place" is still a value judgment - and one not everybody might agree on. What's "better" for one might seem like living hell to another.

[OWoman]

It would be a very dull world if we all thought the same.

 

I'd settle for a world where we all thought!

[donnamaybe]

Denoting it as a "better place" is still a value judgment - and one not everybody might agree on. What's "better" for one might seem like living hell to another.

 

But it is THAT person's better place, and they are entitled to feel it is a better place. That is placing value on THEIR life and how THEY view their life and what makes it better. If the other person in the conversation feels whatever place THEY are in is better for THEM, then why should they take offense?

 

We all give and get advice on this forum. If no one feels their advice is good (i.e. better), then we should never give advice lest someone think we are "judging" their opinion in saying what we think is a better idea?

 

And yes - we all have our own idea on what makes our own life good. Again, the beauty of individuality.

[donnamaybe]

I'd settle for a world where we all thought!

 

Be careful. You are judging. It is for each individual to have their own truths about every subject under the sun. We can agree or not.

 

See how easy it is to label? But why do it? If we all just give our thoughts, read, try to comprehend where the other is coming from, and either agree or disagree; take what advice rings true for each of us and leave the rest, then this will all work much better.

 

But I can see how someone coming across with a "See - I used to be like YOU, but I'm a better person now" can be very abrasive.

 

I'm still hoping to see examples of these types of posts. Can we do that? Or not...

[OWoman]

Be careful. You are judging.

 

Nope - observing! I've had one too many cars back out on me without looking, because "they didn't think anyone would be coming down the lane at this time..." Thinking would definitely have helped!

[donnamaybe]

Nope - observing! I've had one too many cars back out on me without looking, because "they didn't think anyone would be coming down the lane at this time..." Thinking would definitely have helped!

 

Okay. You got me on that one! lol

 

I thought we were talking in terms of responses to threads on LS.

 

And, of course, it WOULD help if people would think before they type. I know I've been guilty at times of not reading back what I typed before I hit the submit button, and something came across NOT as I had intended. In that instance, "thinking," or perhaps reading back to myself first would have helped. Not that I will change my opinion to please anyone, but I can say it more - hmmm.... - politically correctly?

[OWoman]

But it is THAT person's better place, and they are entitled to feel it is a better place.

 

Sure it's THEIR better place, but it's better than where they were before, or better than how they'd feel were then in someone else's place - but the minute they assert that it's better THAN THE OTHER PERSON'S PLACE, they're making a value judgment which puts the other person in a lower position, which that other person might not agree on.

 

Fair enough if the other person has already said, "I feel bad" or "I'm unhappy", but if they're claiming to be happy with where they are, then claiming to be in a better place than them simply comes across as playground one-up-man-ship,

putting the OP on the defensive rather than helping.

 

It's a VERY different thing if the poster says, "being an OW didn't work out for me because XYZ, and I'm so much happier now" - that's relativising their own experience before and after, rather than comparing themselves to the OP and implying that the OP's position is worse than theirs.

[donnamaybe]

Sure it's THEIR better place, but it's better than where they were before, or better than how they'd feel were then in someone else's place - but the minute they assert that it's better THAN THE OTHER PERSON'S PLACE, they're making a value judgment which puts the other person in a lower position, which that other person might not agree on.

 

Fair enough if the other person has already said, "I feel bad" or "I'm unhappy", but if they're claiming to be happy with where they are, then claiming to be in a better place than them simply comes across as playground one-up-man-ship,

putting the OP on the defensive rather than helping.

 

It's a VERY different thing if the poster says, "being an OW didn't work out for me because XYZ, and I'm so much happier now" - that's relativising their own experience before and after, rather than comparing themselves to the OP and implying that the OP's position is worse than theirs.

 

Gotcha. That makes sense. By you explaining it this way, perhaps someone who made that statement we are discussing could also understand why the person receiving their post might take it poorly. But tempers flare and things get said and alert buttons get pushed.

[Fallen Angel]

2sure I think this is an interesting allegory, but IMO it falls down on one critical difference:

 

In your comparison, the "2sure" character feels that they don't need the conversion experience to reach the place of enlightenment that the convert has reached, since she is already there (without the need for the detour through crime or drugs). You liken this to unOWs who do not feel the need for the reform process that the ROW preaches, since they are already in the place of "enlightenment" without the need for the detour via an A.

 

However - in the first example, the convert does not regard the "2sure" character as "saved", thus enlightened; "2sure" is as much a target for their evangelism as is any old druggie or criminal. Everyone except converts are lost in evil and in need of redemption. The experience of redemption is what matters, for this group.

 

In the OW example, the ROW find common cause with the unOWs, and thus regard only the OWs as in need of enlightenment and redemption - disregarding the validity of any fOW experience that does not tally with their own. To them, it's not the need for conversion that matters - it's simply that anyone who disagrees with their POV - whether or not their experience has equal validity - is wrong. The agreement on an opinion (THEIR opinion) as truth is what matters, for this group.

 

As others have stated before on this thread, it becomes very difficult to have a conversation when one group lays claim to The Truth.

 

Bravo... this is the most comprehensible explaination I have seen. Well Done.

[Fallen Angel]

It's impossible to compare the love for your child, even pre-birth, to the love for a MM/MW who is PRETENDING to love you. Maybe that's not the right word. They SAY they love you. They may even THINK they love you. Not "you" in the sense of you personally, but you in the sense of OW/OM who are led on by what they perceive to be a mutual true love. I believe that when MOST MM/MW use the word "love" when speaking of or to their OW/OM they actually love the feeling they get FROM their AP's attention more than the AP themselves. If there is actually love there, why would you torture someone by dangling them on a string for years, or cruelly toss them to the side with hurtful words when the BS finds out about the A?

 

If you only get the little snatches of time together instead of the entire daily grind of life and being able to weather that together, the good and the bad of EVERYTHING about dealing with life issues, how do you know it would work; if the love is strong enough? When there is a strong love between a couple, the difficult tests in life that may tear others apart actually show how strong that love is.

 

That's my belief, and it will never change.

 

I wasn't comparing the loss of my (a) child to the loss of an intimate realtionship with someone of the opposite sex. What I was pointing out is that after a loss that tears at the heart, people minimize the love they felt/recieved in order to better cope with the loss. Minimizing the love minimizes the loss. That is the point I was making.

 

Not every affair consists of someone being dangled on a string for years, or cruelly tossed to the side with hurtful words when the BS finds out about the A. You are making generalizations, rather than speaking to the specifics of each case. Making those generalizations and refusing to accept that not every affair relationship exists within your predetermined box is what makes effective debate next to impossible. If you are truly convinced that things are black and white and every affair relationship has the same dynamic, then you are unable to give constructive advice to anyone whose relationship is outside of your preconcieved idea of it.

 

You often speak about affair relationships not being "real" relationships because the couple does not "share the daily grind". However, not only do some affairs operate in just such a "daily grind", but many non-affair relationships do NOT operate within a "daily grind". Yet you have stated time and again that you feel that those dating relationships and the emotions that exist within them are valid, while the emotions that exist within an affair relationship are not. How do you justify the duplicty of that thought?

Edited March 11, 2010 by Fallen Angel
often my brain works faster than my fingers, so I have many typos. UGH.

[Heather1]

I don't really feel like much of a victim. During the A (the beginning) it was the best thing that ever happened to me. If I could turn back the clock & do it again, yep! I'm just at a point now where his guilt just isn't worth it for me. That doesn't make him a bad person, it's just that he ends up being cold to me & that doesn't feel great.

 

We made no promises, so maybe it's a little different when there's more expectations than just enjoying each other for as long as it lasts. That was my promise to him, and by him being cold, I wasn't enjoying it anymore.