Reformed other women

[donnamaybe]

Not every affair consists of someone being dangled on a string for years, or cruelly tossed to the side with hurtful words when the BS finds out about the A. You are making generalizations, rather than speaking to the specifics of each case. Making those generalizations and refusing to accept that not every affair relationship exists within your predetermined box is what makes effective debate next to impossible. If you are truly convinced that things are black and white and every affair relationship has the same dynamic, then you are unable to give constructive advice to anyone whose relationship is outside of your preconcieved idea of it.

 

You often speak about affair relationships not being "real" relationships because the couple does not "share the daily grind". However, not only do some affairs operate in just such a "daily grind", but many non-affair relationships do NOT operate within a "daily grind". Yet you have stated time and again that you feel that those dating relationships and the emotions that exist within them are valid, while the emotions that exist within an affair relationship are not. How do you justify the duplicty of that thought?

 

When I speak of affairs in general A threads, I do speak in general terms. Reason? Because MOST A's follow a predictable path. It's easy to see in these threads and from what I know of real life cheaters. Most MM/MW are simply in it for the excitement of variety or the ego stroking they get. They may not know it during their A, but when you see the outcome, it becomes crystal clear. If someone wants to start a thread specific to their own very special affair which is startlingly different than the above script, then the dialogue would be different. One person in many of these threads, for example, is no longer an OW and has married her MM. VERY different situation there, so I would never speak to that situation the same as I would to those where the MM/MW remains married after year upon year of a typically hidden A.

 

As for A's v. one-on-one relationships, I have my opinion based on the large percentage of typical A's, and that will not change. You are free to have yours based on your personal situation. MOST A's are conducted in secret. I think anyone would agree with that. There are very few that are otherwise. Because of the A being kept a secret, there is absolutely NO WAY for it to be anything like a one-on-one every day all day relationship. The larger percentage of A's are not where the partners are actually living together or being seen together all the time in all situations everywhere like a full time couple. I mean, I doubt they attend the MM/MW's children's school performances and such together.

 

Most of the A situations we see on this site end up the same; with the MM/MW staying with the BS after D day. If it weren't so, why aren't the OW/OM forcing their AP to make a choice after years of being hidden away? Because, IMO, they know what would happen. Even of those who say they are fine with current arrangements, those same still say they wish their MM/MW would leave their spouse and be with them only. How can that be "fine?" Of course, that is the OW/OM's decision to make. It's their life. They can live it as they choose.

[jennie-jennie]

Hmm a post of mine has gone too. Perhaps I am banned.

 

LOL Yeah, you never know around here! :laugh:

[jennie-jennie]

I don't really feel like much of a victim. During the A (the beginning) it was the best thing that ever happened to me. If I could turn back the clock & do it again, yep! I'm just at a point now where his guilt just isn't worth it for me. That doesn't make him a bad person, it's just that he ends up being cold to me & that doesn't feel great.

 

We made no promises, so maybe it's a little different when there's more expectations than just enjoying each other for as long as it lasts. That was my promise to him, and by him being cold, I wasn't enjoying it anymore.

 

Heather, I really appreciated this honest description of your affair. You are well in touch of your emotions throughout it.

[White Flower]

Now, on that (bolded) bit I'd disagree with you. I think it's really bad for some people, that it's kind of a neutral experience for others, and for some it can be a really positive experience. It depends on who and where they are, what they're wanting, etc. Allegory alert: I guess I'd say it was like using cannabis. For some, it can lead down a path to destruction, for others, it can be something they did, outgrew, and moved on from; and for some others it can be really positive - alleviating pain and nausea (for certain terminal patients), or stimulating an appetite (for anorexics) or opening up creative possibilities they'd have difficulty accessing otherwise (for artists, musicians, etc)... There is no one size fits all.

 

Someone's circumstances can predispose the outcome to be "more likely positive" or "more likely negative", but it's really hard to predict from the outside with certainty which way something would go at the outset. Over time one can see how something is developing, or one could listen carefully to what the person is saying about their experience, but using only one's own experience as a ground rule leaves the possibility that it simply doesn't apply in that other person's case.

 

Which is my issue with the ROW chorus. Like the evangelicals, they really do see it as The Truth, The Only Way - even where there are other people whose lives prove otherwise. They simply can't see, can't accept that their truth isn't the only truth. But for some people, it genuinely isn't.

 

I could not, in all honesty, tell an OW "don't do it" simply based on my experiences. I've never had a negative experience in an A, whatever their outcomes, and my last A had the "fairy tale" ending a number of OW hope for. It would be hypocritical of me to do so, when clearly As can be positive, and can work out well and wonderfully.

 

However, it would also be short-sighted of me to tell any prospective OW "Do it!" on the basis of my own experience. Many As don't work out, many OWs suffer, and not every woman is cut out to be an OW. For me to advise one way or the other, I'd need to look beyond my own experience to the OW herself - to see what she wants, where she's at, what her circumstances are that might help or hinder what she's hoping to get... and to caution her, whichever way I advise her, on the risks of going for it / not going for it / whatever other options there are. There are always advantages and disadvantages on all sides - and speaking for myself, I like to make well-informed decisions that take consideration of all the factors, so that I'm as well prepared for possible outcomes as I can be - so that's the approach I take.

 

I can't chain myself to a rock and howl a constant tune to any passing travellers, because that to me would lack integrity and authenticity, knowing what I know and having experienced what I've lived through. I need to start with the OP themself, not from my own history, for me to be able to do it without feeling fake.

Excellent post especially the bolded part.

[pureinheart]

I don't really feel like much of a victim. During the A (the beginning) it was the best thing that ever happened to me. If I could turn back the clock & do it again, yep! I'm just at a point now where his guilt just isn't worth it for me. That doesn't make him a bad person, it's just that he ends up being cold to me & that doesn't feel great.

 

We made no promises, so maybe it's a little different when there's more expectations than just enjoying each other for as long as it lasts. That was my promise to him, and by him being cold, I wasn't enjoying it anymore.

 

OMG Heather...the beginning...check this out, because I had been through hell and back I looked physically bad...depressed (I have before and after pictures to prove it), it was absolutely pathetic.

 

Soooo exDM and me get called back to work, start working together on the same project and he treated me like a princess...basically he spoke my healing into existance by telling me I was worth a lot. I was also quite physically ill at the time due to great stress.

 

As God as my witness I lost 20 yrs and 40 lbs and looked and felt great...excelled in everything I did...he told me I mattered, that I was worth something.

 

Then everything changed...

 

Soooo now I must find the strength in me to do this on my own this time as I have fallen once again into that "pit"...he showed me how to get out and pulled me out the last time...now I must do it without him.

[jennie-jennie]

OMG Heather...the beginning...check this out, because I had been through hell and back I looked physically bad...depressed (I have before and after pictures to prove it), it was absolutely pathetic.

 

Soooo exDM and me get called back to work, start working together on the same project and he treated me like a princess...basically he spoke my healing into existance by telling me I was worth a lot. I was also quite physically ill at the time due to great stress.

 

As God as my witness I lost 20 yrs and 40 lbs and looked and felt great...excelled in everything I did...he told me I mattered, that I was worth something.

 

Then everything changed...

 

Soooo now I must find the strength in me to do this on my own this time as I have fallen once again into that "pit"...he showed me how to get out and pulled me out the last time...now I must do it without him.

 

I think many reformed OW and BSs fail to recognize that the MM can actually be good for us. My relationship with my MM has helped me heal from past life experiences and put me in a much healthier state. I had severe trust issues, not only due to an abusive relationship but also because of bad experiences in my work situation. I revealed a fraud my company was guilty of and reported it to the authorities, and was therefore severely bullied by my colleagues for being uncollegial to the extent I had to quit my job. Then the company reported us to the social authorities questioning the mental health of my children who had been going to the company's kindergarten. Great. Talk about revenge. There's nothing wrong with my kids.

Edited March 13, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Fallen Angel]

OMG Heather...the beginning...check this out, because I had been through hell and back I looked physically bad...depressed (I have before and after pictures to prove it), it was absolutely pathetic.

 

Soooo exDM and me get called back to work, start working together on the same project and he treated me like a princess...basically he spoke my healing into existance by telling me I was worth a lot. I was also quite physically ill at the time due to great stress.

 

As God as my witness I lost 20 yrs and 40 lbs and looked and felt great...excelled in everything I did...he told me I mattered, that I was worth something.

 

Then everything changed...

 

Soooo now I must find the strength in me to do this on my own this time as I have fallen once again into that "pit"...he showed me how to get out and pulled me out the last time...now I must do it without him.

 

The love My Sweetheart offered me gave me the strength to leave my abusive marriage. (Not for him, but because his love made me feel valuable again and helped me regain a sense of self that I had lost over 15 years of abuse.) Feeling loved made me feel vital again, and without any diet or exercise changes, I lost almost one hundred pounds that I had been hiding behind for about 6 years. (My depression in my marriage led to slow weight gain throughout but a large weight gain the last 6 years.) Feeling loved again, made me smile and laugh something I had not done in ages.

 

It was not that he actually changed me, it was that he allowed me to throw away the masks I hid behind for so long, and let the real me out again. It is amazing the way someone loving you just for being you, can allow you to be the best you that you can be.

 

But you do not need him for that my friend. You know deep down that you are worth it, you just have to believe it again... and that belief will come back quicker than you think.

 

(((hugs)))

[pureinheart]

I think many reformed OW and BSs fail to recognize that the MM can actually be good for us. My relationship with my MM has helped me heal from past life experiences and put me in a much healthier state. I had severe trust issues, not only due to an abusive relationship but also because of bad experiences in my work situation. I revealed a fraud my company was guilty of and reported it to the authorities, and was therefore severely bullied by my colleagues for being uncollegial to the extent I had to quit my job. Then the company reported us to the social authorities questioning the mental health of my children who had been going to the company's kindergarten. Great. Talk about revenge. There's nothing wrong with my kids.

 

OMG, Jennie...I am speechless concerning what you went through....I am soooo sorry that is horrible....

 

Your company (ex) should have been monitored by the authorities as this type of thing is common after a situation like this, or at the very least afterwards there should have been someone that you reported the companies behavior, co-workers included, on a regular basis. And I am quite sure there is nothing wrong with your kids...yes, revenge at it's ugliest.

 

Jennie, I don't know what happened , something changed...although he treated me with the utmost respect and gave me more than a reason to live, I had never been happier. Soooo, instead of living with a bunch of hurt that wasn't real, I'll live with the happiness that I know was real.

 

I know many sterio type the R's as seedy, back alley, ghetto etc., although some if not most are not. Like one poster said, these boards are not the norm as many of the happy R's are not communicated for whatever reason.

 

Sometimes it's as simple as marrying the wrong person and this is not meant to cut "the wrong person" down, I have been someones "wrong person" many times, it doesn't mean I'm not someone elses "right". So OP M's prematurely "thinking" this is right, or like in exDM's case, he M'ed for duty sake and he did love her, although not enough to marry...many people marry for the wrong reasons....so then they meet the right one, or in your case, meet up again and thus we have a very torn individual just trying to get through life as best as possible.

[pureinheart]

The love My Sweetheart offered me gave me the strength to leave my abusive marriage. (Not for him, but because his love made me feel valuable again and helped me regain a sense of self that I had lost over 15 years of abuse.) Feeling loved made me feel vital again, and without any diet or exercise changes, I lost almost one hundred pounds that I had been hiding behind for about 6 years. (My depression in my marriage led to slow weight gain throughout but a large weight gain the last 6 years.) Feeling loved again, made me smile and laugh something I had not done in ages.

 

It was not that he actually changed me, it was that he allowed me to throw away the masks I hid behind for so long, and let the real me out again. It is amazing the way someone loving you just for being you, can allow you to be the best you that you can be.

 

But you do not need him for that my friend. You know deep down that you are worth it, you just have to believe it again... and that belief will come back quicker than you think.

 

(((hugs)))

 

WOW, that is awesome! Almost a hundered pounds...that is absolutely wonderful.

 

It's interesting that you say that about hidding behind masks, especially weight, as I have used that to ward men off, and to keep me away from them, although my weight didnot ward off exDM in the least, even looking like hell did not detour him.

 

He also gave me the strength to leave an abusive M, and like you I did not leave for him or expect him to leave his M.

 

In thinking about your post and Jennies post, what happened was he gave me the tools to do what was needed and now am equipped. This is why I have been going back and forth, it's not him, it's me. The scales are finally balancing, although in this process it is uncomfortable as most everything in my life has been a tool to throw me off balance, he was the one person that I trusted TO balance me, because I knew he had what it took.

 

I expected him to do what was not his job to do in the first place and vice versa...we both hung on to each other for dear life, and when we failed each other, the trust was lost...but this is not a trust area, it is something that we must stand on our own two feet to accomplish...

 

WOW...if ever two posts were to run together simultaniously, so perfectly to tell a story, to open eyes...these are it...thank you guys (JJ and FA)...I am totally blown away...thanks for not just the "light bulb" experience...the entire world was lit up.

[jennie-jennie]

Sometimes it's as simple as marrying the wrong person and this is not meant to cut "the wrong person" down, I have been someones "wrong person" many times, it doesn't mean I'm not someone elses "right". So OP M's prematurely "thinking" this is right, or like in exDM's case, he M'ed for duty sake and he did love her, although not enough to marry...many people marry for the wrong reasons....so then they meet the right one, or in your case, meet up again and thus we have a very torn individual just trying to get through life as best as possible.

 

I think a lot of us marry the best person available, which might be a pretty good person but still there is something missing. Something that we learn to live without until we meet that special person who can provide it.

[White Flower]

I think a lot of us marry the best person available, which might be a pretty good person but still there is something missing. Something that we learn to live without until we meet that special person who can provide it.

This was something I ignored for years. I t hought that if I just keep 'working on it' that eventually we would find it. Never did find it with my H. The thing I was searching for so long for was stumbled upon with MM. And it was the whole package which was complete and right for me.

[wheelwright]

Now, on that (bolded) bit I'd disagree with you. I think it's really bad for some people, that it's kind of a neutral experience for others, and for some it can be a really positive experience. It depends on who and where they are, what they're wanting, etc. Allegory alert: I guess I'd say it was like using cannabis. For some, it can lead down a path to destruction, for others, it can be something they did, outgrew, and moved on from; and for some others it can be really positive - alleviating pain and nausea (for certain terminal patients), or stimulating an appetite (for anorexics) or opening up creative possibilities they'd have difficulty accessing otherwise (for artists, musicians, etc)... There is no one size fits all.

 

Someone's circumstances can predispose the outcome to be "more likely positive" or "more likely negative", but it's really hard to predict from the outside with certainty which way something would go at the outset. Over time one can see how something is developing, or one could listen carefully to what the person is saying about their experience, but using only one's own experience as a ground rule leaves the possibility that it simply doesn't apply in that other person's case.

 

Which is my issue with the ROW chorus. Like the evangelicals, they really do see it as The Truth, The Only Way - even where there are other people whose lives prove otherwise. They simply can't see, can't accept that their truth isn't the only truth. But for some people, it genuinely isn't.

 

I could not, in all honesty, tell an OW "don't do it" simply based on my experiences. I've never had a negative experience in an A, whatever their outcomes, and my last A had the "fairy tale" ending a number of OW hope for. It would be hypocritical of me to do so, when clearly As can be positive, and can work out well and wonderfully.

 

However, it would also be short-sighted of me to tell any prospective OW "Do it!" on the basis of my own experience. Many As don't work out, many OWs suffer, and not every woman is cut out to be an OW. For me to advise one way or the other, I'd need to look beyond my own experience to the OW herself - to see what she wants, where she's at, what her circumstances are that might help or hinder what she's hoping to get... and to caution her, whichever way I advise her, on the risks of going for it / not going for it / whatever other options there are. There are always advantages and disadvantages on all sides - and speaking for myself, I like to make well-informed decisions that take consideration of all the factors, so that I'm as well prepared for possible outcomes as I can be - so that's the approach I take.

 

I can't chain myself to a rock and howl a constant tune to any passing travellers, because that to me would lack integrity and authenticity, knowing what I know and having experienced what I've lived through. I need to start with the OP themself, not from my own history, for me to be able to do it without feeling fake.

 

I am so glad I read this post. I feel the same on this issue, as with most, one size doesn't fit all.

 

And I am newly in a situation where I am the confident of a MW embarking on an A. I am careful to a) not give the predominantly nagative feedback seen here as the only view, while it is a view and b) most importantly to try to look at it from her perspective and c) to acknowledge to myself that I want to save her from almost inevitable pain that will be involved, whilst also acknowledging that this may nonetheless be an important life experience for her.

 

Difficult though.

[jennie-jennie]

I think a lot of us marry the best person available, which might be a pretty good person but still there is something missing. Something that we learn to live without until we meet that special person who can provide it.

 

I mean no disrespect, but I have a hard time believing that a person with this mindset couldn't find an UNMARRIED person that could do this as well.

 

If when we were younger and there were many more potential partners available, we could not find a person providing this missing piece, then the likelihood of finding it at all at a later age becomes smaller, especially if the criteria is that married people are not an option.

 

Whiteflower stated this so perfectly once: "True chemistry is hard to find. If you find it, hold on to it."

[jennie-jennie]

I am so glad I read this post. I feel the same on this issue, as with most, one size doesn't fit all.

 

And I am newly in a situation where I am the confident of a MW embarking on an A. I am careful to a) not give the predominantly nagative feedback seen here as the only view, while it is a view and b) most importantly to try to look at it from her perspective and c) to acknowledge to myself that I want to save her from almost inevitable pain that will be involved, whilst also acknowledging that this may nonetheless be an important life experience for her.

 

Difficult though.

 

Well stated.

[White Flower]

I mean no disrespect, but I have a hard time believing that a person with this mindset couldn't find an UNMARRIED person that could do this as well.

I would have loved for that to have happened. It just didn't.

[GreenEyedLady]

I think the point here is that no matter how your story turns out-you get him, the wife gets him; people get hurt in the process. Including all parties in the triangle and any children involved.

 

Yes life goes on, people get over it, heal and move on, but in the meantime there is a great amount of betrayal and hurt that happens.

 

For the most part it seems that the OW is often thrown under the bus and the MM lives to lie another day. You can think your MM is different, but if he hasn't left and is still cheating, he's not different, it's par for the course.

 

Reformed OW etc. basically want you to wake up and start questioning what's going on so you don't get hurt any more. Is that so bad or horrible? The fact is if you are in a R with a MM he is LYING, most likely to both of you and definitely to his W. To think otherwise is foolish. Open your eyes and start playing for keeps. Don't be anyone else's pawn.

 

GEL

[MizzBlue72]

You know Jennie Jennie - I'm to the point where I am an unapologetic OW also.

 

At first, I was so very apologetic. And pathetic really.

 

I am now divorced and he is getting divorced.

 

DDay didn't end our relationship.

 

I have had SO many feelings in this relationship. I mean - yes. At one time, I tried being the xOW or fOW. Didn't work. And I can honestly say I am GLAD it didn't work.

 

I love him - he loves me. A's don't always end bad. And his wife is fine. They had been living their lives apart for so long that it's pretty much the same now.

 

Thanks for this post. I don't WANT to be a reformed anything. I know that now. Just sorry it took me this long to figure it out.

[pureinheart]

I am so glad I read this post. I feel the same on this issue, as with most, one size doesn't fit all.

 

And I am newly in a situation where I am the confident of a MW embarking on an A. I am careful to a) not give the predominantly nagative feedback seen here as the only view, while it is a view and b) most importantly to try to look at it from her perspective and c) to acknowledge to myself that I want to save her from almost inevitable pain that will be involved, whilst also acknowledging that this may nonetheless be an important life experience for her.

 

Difficult though.

 

This is excellent...I am so grateful you were put in the MW's way.

[pureinheart]

You know Jennie Jennie - I'm to the point where I am an unapologetic OW also.

 

At first, I was so very apologetic. And pathetic really.

 

I am now divorced and he is getting divorced.

 

DDay didn't end our relationship.

 

I have had SO many feelings in this relationship. I mean - yes. At one time, I tried being the xOW or fOW. Didn't work. And I can honestly say I am GLAD it didn't work.

 

I love him - he loves me. A's don't always end bad. And his wife is fine. They had been living their lives apart for so long that it's pretty much the same now.

 

Thanks for this post. I don't WANT to be a reformed anything. I know that now. Just sorry it took me this long to figure it out.

 

Amen to that!

[jennie-jennie]

I think the point here is that no matter how your story turns out-you get him, the wife gets him; people get hurt in the process. Including all parties in the triangle and any children involved.

 

Yes life goes on, people get over it, heal and move on, but in the meantime there is a great amount of betrayal and hurt that happens.

 

For the most part it seems that the OW is often thrown under the bus and the MM lives to lie another day. You can think your MM is different, but if he hasn't left and is still cheating,he's not different, it's par for the course.

 

Reformed OW etc. basically want you to wake up and start questioning what's going on so you don't get hurt any more. Is that so bad or horrible? The fact is if you are in a R with a MM he is LYING, most likely to both of you and definitely to his W. To think otherwise is foolish. Open your eyes and start playing for keeps. Don't be anyone else's pawn.

 

GEL

 

So you count yourself among the reformed other women then?

 

May I ask what you mean with "you can think your MM is different"? In that he will leave his wife? That he is not a liar and a manipulator? That he is a good person? That he is a split self?

 

I certainly think my MM is different from serial cheaters and sex addicts. I do not think he is different from other split selfs.

 

I often find reformed OW's posts hurtful. If they are out to save OW from hurt, why are they being hurtful? I can't see that that is necessary just because you want to support the OW in ending the relationship.

Edited March 15, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

I mean no disrespect, but I have a hard time believing that a person with this mindset couldn't find an UNMARRIED person that could do this as well.

 

If when we were younger and there were many more potential partners available, we could not find a person providing this missing piece, then the likelihood of finding it at all at a later age becomes smaller, especially if the criteria is that married people are not an option.

 

Whiteflower stated this so perfectly once: "True chemistry is hard to find. If you find it, hold on to it."

 

Jthorne, I just realized that our affairs started at completely different times of our lives. You were 19, I was 46. I wonder if that plays in in why we look so differently at extramarital relationships.

[moaningmyrtle]

So you count yourself among the reformed other women then?

 

May I ask what you mean with "you can think your MM is different"? In that he will leave his wife? That he is not a liar and a manipulator? That he is a good person? That he is a split self?

 

I certainly think my MM is different from serial cheaters and sex addicts. I do not think he is different from other split selfs.

 

I often find reformed OW's posts hurtful. If they are out to save OW from hurt, why are they being hurtful? I can't see that that is necessary just because you want to support the OW in ending the relationship.

 

I can't answer your question to GEL and can only speculate about why you might find posts from some OW hurtful.

 

Regarding the bolded part above. I understand that you consider you MM to be a split-self and neither a sex addict or serial cheater. However are you also suggesting that he does not lie and manipulate? Is he not lying to his wife and manipulating her to stay with him, when if she had all the relevant information she might choose to leave?

 

Assuming there is such a thing as split-self, which may well explain what is happening, is not the same as saying that the person is honest and not manipulative.

[jennie-jennie]

You know Jennie Jennie - I'm to the point where I am an unapologetic OW also.

 

At first, I was so very apologetic. And pathetic really.

 

I am now divorced and he is getting divorced.

 

DDay didn't end our relationship.

 

I have had SO many feelings in this relationship. I mean - yes. At one time, I tried being the xOW or fOW. Didn't work. And I can honestly say I am GLAD it didn't work.

 

I love him - he loves me. A's don't always end bad. And his wife is fine. They had been living their lives apart for so long that it's pretty much the same now.

 

Thanks for this post. I don't WANT to be a reformed anything. I know that now. Just sorry it took me this long to figure it out.

 

Thanks for your insight. I am glad you too are finding the relief of being an unapologetic other woman.

[jennie-jennie]

I can't answer your question to GEL and can only speculate about why you might find posts from some OW hurtful.

 

Regarding the bolded part above. I understand that you consider you MM to be a split-self and neither a sex addict or serial cheater. However are you also suggesting that he does not lie and manipulate? Is he not lying to his wife and manipulating her to stay with him, when if she had all the relevant information she might choose to leave?

 

Assuming there is such a thing as split-self, which may well explain what is happening, is not the same as saying that the person is honest and not manipulative.

 

To define a person as a liar and a manipulator is very different from stating that they lie to their wives because they are torn and confused.

 

No, I do not consider my MM to be a liar and a manipulator. Yes, I realize that he is not being honest but indeed lying to his wife which denies her the chance to look at reality as it is. I don't consider that manipulating. I consider it being dishonest. Yet this is the only area of his life were he is dishonest. He is a very honest man in all other aspects. How can one then define him from just the one area where he is split?

 

Myrtle, do you consider your husband a liar and a manipulator? Because if you are one, I don't think that ends just because you end the affair. On the other hand, if this is behavior which is only occurring in connection to the affair, and you work with the issues which are causing it, this behavior might very well stop.

Edited March 15, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[anne1707]

No, I do not consider my MM to be a liar and a manipulator. Yes, I realize that he is not being honest but indeed lying to his wife which denies her the chance to look at reality as it is. I don't consider that manipulating. I consider it being dishonest. Yet this is the only area of his life were he is dishonest. He is a very honest man in all other aspects. How can one then define him from just the one area where he is split?

 

 

To say that someone who is dishonest is not a liar baffles me. As far as your MM's wife would be concerned, if she ever finds out the truth, he is a liar and is manipulating her.

 

I am very much of the same opinion as GEL. A WS is always lying to at least the OW/OM or the BS (and more likely both).