Reformed other women

[pureinheart]

I think a lot of us marry the best person available, which might be a pretty good person but still there is something missing. Something that we learn to live without until we meet that special person who can provide it.

 

This is very true Jennie...and concerning exDM, just wanted to use this opportunity to throw in there that I have blamed myself here and there (not on LS, but in my thoughts and feelings) for not being there for him when he said I should, he was going through so much.

 

He was having a difficult time standing on his own two feet, he felt that due to not having much help from his family that now he was due, one might think that he would be used to this...one never gets used to this.

 

The point to this...I don't know, possibly understanding that condemnation is a terrible thing, we do what we are able, we fail, make decisions...we cannot save people, even the ones we love. We must give them wings to fly at times and let them go....

[jennie-jennie]

To say that someone who is dishonest is not a liar baffles me. As far as your MM's wife would be concerned, if she ever finds out the truth, he is a liar and is manipulating her.

 

I am very much of the same opinion as GEL. A WS is always lying to at least the OW/OM or the BS (and more likely both).

 

Do you consider yourself to be a liar and a manipulator then, Anne? Or was this just part of the affair dynamics? A necessity to keep the affair secret? A necessity which in fact might have pained you at times because this was behavior which was out of character for you?

[anne1707]

I was a liar throughout the affair and manipulated both my H and the ex-OM. I do not do this now - it was all part of the half-life I felt I was in at that time and I never want to exist like that again. The fact that it was necessary to keeping the affair secret does not make it OK. It does make it less cruel or hurtful.

 

I am not of the opinion that once a cheater always a cheater or that once a liar always a liar. But your MM is a liar at this stage in his life. He always will be whilst his wife does not know about the affair. I may be getting your story confused so apologies if that is the case but didn't he also lie to you for a full year about his marital status?

[moaningmyrtle]

To define a person as a liar and a manipulator is very different from stating that they lie to their wives because they are torn and confused.

 

No, I do not consider my MM to be a liar and a manipulator. Yes, I realize that he is not being honest but indeed lying to his wife which denies her the chance to look at reality as it is. I don't consider that manipulating. I consider it being dishonest. Yet this is the only area of his life were he is dishonest. He is a very honest man in all other aspects. How can one then define him from just the one area where he is split?

 

Myrtle, do you consider your husband a liar and a manipulator? Because if you are one, I don't think that ends just because you end the affair. On the other hand, if this is behavior which is only occurring in connection to the affair, and you work with the issues which are causing it, this behavior might very well stop.

 

I asked about whether a MM having an A is lying and manipulating. I was careful to ask about his behaviour, rather than label him as a liar and manipulator forever.

 

My H lied to me and manipulated me in exactly that way. He lied to me every time I asked how his day was and he failed to answer truthfully. The purpose he now admits was so I didn't find out about his A and decide to leave him. He knows that since d-day I have struggled with whether or not I ought to stay with him. I can't remember ever threatening to leave him or divorce him before d-day. He manipulated me so that breaking up with him was not on my horizon.

 

I believe my H is now being honest with me, so he is no longer lying and manipulating. However it seems from your description of your own MM's behaviour that he is still lying and manipulating his wife and family. I understand you would like him to stop this behaviour but it seems he is unlikely to do it without a d-day. Can you envisage a situation where he can stop lying to his wife without a d-day?

 

By way of example some married people end the A without ever revealing it to their wives or husbands. To me those people are consigning themselves to a lifetime (or at least as long as the marriage lasts) of dishonesty and manipulation. They forever remain liars and manipulators. IMO - it is difficult for the behaviour to stop, as every time a question or implication of fidelity arises, the MP has to be dishonest to maintain the fiction.

 

A few days before d-day in my case I discovered enough for me to be concerned that infidelity has occurred. My H decided at that point that he would stop the infidelity but he didn't come clean with me. The day before d-day I discovered even more (but not actual infidelity) and so I asked if he had always been faithful to me - he lied but also said later he realised that he would forever have to lie if I didn't know about it. As it turns out he didn't come clean of his own volition - I delved further and had the "real" d-day, at which point he came clean.

[jennie-jennie]

I was a liar throughout the affair and manipulated both my H and the ex-OM. I do not do this now - it was all part of the half-life I felt I was in at that time and I never want to exist like that again. The fact that it was necessary to keeping the affair secret does not make it OK. It does make it less cruel or hurtful.

 

I am not of the opinion that once a cheater always a cheater or that once a liar always a liar. But your MM is a liar at this stage in his life. He always will be whilst his wife does not know about the affair. I may be getting your story confused so apologies if that is the case but didn't he also lie to you for a full year about his marital status?

 

You considering my MM to be a liar is only your opinion. It does not make him a liar according to my perspective. That is exactly the problem I have with reformed OW/OM and reformed WS. You think you own the truth.

 

You are confusing me with GEL. As far as I know, my MM has never once lied to me.

 

If my MM became a reformed WS after our relationship ended, I would be crushed. So much of what I love about him would be lost.

Edited March 15, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

I asked about whether a MM having an A is lying and manipulating. I was careful to ask about his behaviour, rather than label him as a liar and manipulator forever.

 

My H lied to me and manipulated me in exactly that way. He lied to me every time I asked how his day was and he failed to answer truthfully. The purpose he now admits was so I didn't find out about his A and decide to leave him. He knows that since d-day I have struggled with whether or not I ought to stay with him. I can't remember ever threatening to leave him or divorce him before d-day. He manipulated me so that breaking up with him was not on my horizon.

 

I believe my H is now being honest with me, so he is no longer lying and manipulating. However it seems from your description of your own MM's behaviour that he is still lying and manipulating his wife and family. I understand you would like him to stop this behaviour but it seems he is unlikely to do it without a d-day. Can you envisage a situation where he can stop lying to his wife without a d-day?

 

By way of example some married people end the A without ever revealing it to their wives or husbands. To me those people are consigning themselves to a lifetime (or at least as long as the marriage lasts) of dishonesty and manipulation. They forever remain liars and manipulators. IMO - it is difficult for the behaviour to stop, as every time a question or implication of fidelity arises, the MP has to be dishonest to maintain the fiction.

 

A few days before d-day in my case I discovered enough for me to be concerned that infidelity has occurred. My H decided at that point that he would stop the infidelity but he didn't come clean with me. The day before d-day I discovered even more (but not actual infidelity) and so I asked if he had always been faithful to me - he lied but also said later he realised that he would forever have to lie if I didn't know about it. As it turns out he didn't come clean of his own volition - I delved further and had the "real" d-day, at which point he came clean.

 

Myrtle, I believe you understand the difference I am making between defining someone as a liar and a manipulator and someone who during the affair and perhaps even after lies to and/or manipulates his wife but where this behavior is otherwise out of character for him.

 

I can see many outcomes of our relationship, using the knowledge I have about my MM.

 

He may go to IC and there decide whether or not to continue his marriage, whether or not to tell.

 

He might confess to his wife with or without having gone to IC.

 

He might decide to end the affair and never tell her. I know he is afraid of harming her and their relationship by telling her the truth. So he does not see confessing as the be all end all only way to deal with this.

 

Our affair might continue until one of us dies.

[moaningmyrtle]

You considering my MM to be a liar is only your opinion. It does not make him a liar according to my perspective. That is exactly the problem I have with reformed OW/OM and reformed WS. You think you own the truth.

 

This is an ad hominem attack Jennie and is not worthy of you. I have just finished a short suspension for an ad hom which wasn't intended by me to be that at all.

 

You are confusing me with GEL. As far as I know, my MM has never once lied to me.

 

If my MM became a reformed WS after our relationship ended, I would be crushed. So much of what I love about him would be lost.

 

I don't understand what you are saying here. A reformed WS is surely one who has resolved his split-self and decided that infidelity and the accompanying "necessity" of being dishonest was wrong for him and who would have a conscience about advising others accordingly (if advice was asked). I guess my H is now a reformed WS and I do love him for it - it's been hard for him too, to face the heartbreak he has caused.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't understand what you are saying here. A reformed WS is surely one who has resolved his split-self and decided that infidelity and the accompanying "necessity" of being dishonest was wrong for him and who would have a conscience about advising others accordingly (if advice was asked). I guess my H is now a reformed WS and I do love him for it - it's been hard for him too, to face the heartbreak he has caused.

 

OK, I did not consider it to be an ad hominem attack. I was discussing the topic of reformed OW. I apologize if Anne took it badly.

 

Myrtle, I think you need to go back and reread the thread, especially OWoman's posts, it does not seem you have understood what "reformed" means.

[moaningmyrtle]

OK, I did not consider it to be an ad hominem attack. I was discussing the topic of reformed OW. I apologize if Anne took it badly.

 

Myrtle, I think you need to go back and reread the thread, especially OWoman's posts, it does not seem you have understood what "reformed" means.

 

I know exactly how "reformed" has been interpreted by some, but that is not my own interpretation.

 

I recall the analogy between rOW and born-again (evangelical) Christians, earlier on this thread. To me these reformed sinners are out there knocking on doors trying to convert people. But this is an advice forum and what I see is people giving genuine advice based on their own experiences. This is nothing like people who go round suggesting people "find Jesus/God/whatever" on the basis of a belief system involving a supernatural being.

 

I do not interpret "reformed" in a pejorative sense - I just see people who have learned from rather unpleasant experiences that certain courses of action and behaviours were bad for them. I am no longer a BW, so does this make me a reformed BW just because I advise people not to betray their spouses?

[jennie-jennie]

I know exactly how "reformed" has been interpreted by some, but that is not my own interpretation.

 

I recall the analogy between rOW and born-again (evangelical) Christians, earlier on this thread. To me these reformed sinners are out there knocking on doors trying to convert people. But this is an advice forum and what I see is people giving genuine advice based on their own experiences. This is nothing like people who go round suggesting people "find Jesus/God/whatever" on the basis of a belief system involving a supernatural being.

 

I do not interpret "reformed" in a pejorative sense - I just see people who have learned from rather unpleasant experiences that certain courses of action and behaviours were bad for them. I am no longer a BW, so does this make me a reformed BW just because I advise people not to betray their spouses?

 

We obviously interpret "reformed" differently. In my opinon the analogy between rOW and born-again Christians is a good one. It is exactly about what I stated above: They think they own the truth.

 

(I am wary that you consider this too being an attack. I don't know how to otherwise describe it in a few words.)

[moaningmyrtle]

We obviously interpret "reformed" differently. In my opinon the analogy between rOW and born-again Christians is a good one. It is exactly about what I stated above: They think they own the truth.

 

(I am wary that you consider this too being an attack. I don't know how to otherwise describe it in a few words.)

 

I suppose an ad hom attack is to attack the "(wo)man" not the argument - ie you cannot believe/trust or take seriously what X says because X is a *insert whatever X is - ie rOW*.

 

Don't worry I have no intention of reporting you as somebody must have done to me.

 

We will have to disagree on how we interpret "reformed".

[jennie-jennie]

I suppose an ad hom attack is to attack the "(wo)man" not the argument - ie you cannot believe/trust or take seriously what X says because X is a *insert whatever X is - ie rOW*.

 

Don't worry I have no intention of reporting you as somebody must have done to me.

 

We will have to disagree on how we interpret "reformed".

 

That's fine, Myrtle. You and I are communicating okay even if we at times disagree.

 

I think you know what I mean when I say I always consider every argument whoever said it. Both you and I are people who like to discuss and reflect over matters.

[jennie-jennie]

I can see many outcomes of our relationship, using the knowledge I have about my MM.

 

He may go to IC and there decide whether or not to continue his marriage, whether or not to tell.

 

He might confess to his wife with or without having gone to IC.

 

He might decide to end the affair and never tell her. I know he is afraid of harming her and their relationship by telling her the truth. So he does not see confessing as the be all end all only way to deal with this.

 

Our affair might continue until one of us dies.

 

I forgot to mention a Dday as a possible outcome of course!

[jennie-jennie]

Can you envisage a situation where he can stop lying to his wife without a d-day?

 

Myrtle, I just reread this and now I interpret it differently. I hear what you are saying. Very interesting. I will have to think about that.

[NoIDidn't]

I often find reformed OW's posts hurtful. If they are out to save OW from hurt, why are they being hurtful? I can't see that that is necessary just because you want to support the OW in ending the relationship.

 

This explains the dislike for "reformed" OWs. I didn't see it this way at all.

 

But since you haven't provided the kinds of things that so-called "reformed" OWs have posted that you find hurtful, I can't address whether what they said was hurtful or just a reality you haven't accepted yet.

 

I can agree, though, that its not necessary to disparage any of the personalities dealing with the ending of an A - the MP, BS, or the OP. Its not helpful to the OP that's trying to understand the end of the AR.

[donnamaybe]

This explains the dislike for "reformed" OWs. I didn't see it this way at all.

 

But since you haven't provided the kinds of things that so-called "reformed" OWs have posted that you find hurtful, I can't address whether what they said was hurtful or just a reality you haven't accepted yet.

 

I can agree, though, that its not necessary to disparage any of the personalities dealing with the ending of an A - the MP, BS, or the OP. Its not helpful to the OP that's trying to understand the end of the AR.

 

I keep asking for examples of these "reformed OW" hurtful posts, but none have been forthcoming.

 

I am surprised that another former OW who recently posted a new thread warning folks about wasting their lives on an A hasn't weighed in on this thread. It would be nice to hear from her, but maybe she's afraid to say anything.

[NoIDidn't]

I keep asking for examples of these "reformed OW" hurtful posts, but none have been forthcoming.

 

I am surprised that another former OW who recently posted a new thread warning folks about wasting their lives on an A hasn't weighed in on this thread. It would be nice to hear from her, but maybe she's afraid to say anything.

 

Not to speak for KismetGirl, but I don't think she's interested in jumping back into the fray. She mentions in her post how she works with the addicted on a daily basis. Not that I am calling anyone here addicted, just that there are similarities in the ways that they defend their actions/position.

 

But I am honestly interested in seeing the kinds of things said by former OWs that are considered hurtful by the happy, if not outright proud, OWs. I think one thing is the thought that their MM is seen by most in society as dishonest and as a liar. If you can lie to the person you spend your life with, to your kids by omission and extension, most people consider you to be most vile and untrustworthy. But when people think that the means (the lying and manipulating that goes on during the affair to the families and spouses of the wayward) justifies the end (getting the love they want out of it), they can't see that part.

 

I don't consider what former OWs say hurtful unless they are threatening to tell the W when they don't get what they want. Any acknowledging that the MM is a liar because he is lying isn't hurtful, IMO. Its not meant to say he's a horrible person, its acknowledging the truth of his actions - like GEL said. No point in not calling a Spade a Spade.

[jennie-jennie]

I was a "happy" OW, and I'm now a "happy" MW. What I don't like about reformed OWs is the way that they assume that their view is the only valid one, and thus that:

 

* ALL As suck

* ALL OWs are damaged, low self-esteem broken humans deep in denial

* ALL MMs are "cake-eating" slimebags

* ALL MMs are happiest in the A, with two women on call

* ALL OWs really hate being the OW, but pretend otherwise

* ALL OWs will ultimately come round to their (ie, the "right") view, and will finally see the light, and come to realise how misguided they were

* ALL As end horribly - whichever way they end

* NC and ultimate dumping of the MM is the only way to redemption

* recanting the A and turning one's back on it is the only valid outcome of an A

* joining the ranks of the Righteous is the only way to happiness...

 

...despite all the evidence provided by lived examples here, to the contrary.

 

I am very puzzled as to how it can be difficult to understand that the above can be hurtful.

Edited March 15, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[NoIDidn't]

I am very puzzled as to how it can be difficult to understand that the above can be hurtful.

 

Jennie-jennie, that wasn't proof.

 

We asked about specifics. Not about someone else's generalizations.

 

Can you provide a specific post that proves the above or not?

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie-jennie, that wasn't proof.

 

We asked about specifics. Not about someone else's generalizations.

 

Can you provide a specific post that proves the above or not?

 

I would love to but I do not want to get banned.

 

I can't understand how you can not figure this out by yourself. It stares in your eyes when you are an unapologetic other woman at least. Perhaps if you share their views it is more difficult to see?

[NoIDidn't]

Just imagine someone posting a thread about "happy" OWs being delusional and dismissive of the very real hurt that they experienced during their affairs.

 

I can get that people don't appreciate being disagreed with. But I don't get the attempt to silence one view only for your own.

 

I see nothing wrong with the "reformed" view. And I see the "happy" view just as valid, if it works for that person.

 

Seems to me that one side only wants their view to be accepted while trying to push that the other view is somehow invalid and can't see that they are doing exactly what they claim to hate when its done to them.

[jennie-jennie]

Just imagine someone posting a thread about "happy" OWs being delusional and dismissive of the very real hurt that they experienced during their affairs.

This is in actuality posted quite often about me. In posts for sure but still.

 

I can get that people don't appreciate being disagreed with. But I don't get the attempt to silence one view only for your own.

 

I see nothing wrong with the "reformed" view. And I see the "happy" view just as valid, if it works for that person.

 

Seems to me that one side only wants their view to be accepted while trying to push that the other view is somehow invalid and can't see that they are doing exactly what they claim to hate when its done to them.

 

What we are protesting against is that the rOW seem to consider their view the one and only truth. A discussion is then impossible. When someone thinks they know your reality better than you do, it is very hard to discuss anything with them.

 

Perhaps it is not the view as much as the posting style which is the problem. A bit more humility would be in its place.

[NoIDidn't]

I would love to but I do not want to get banned.

 

LOL. Yeah. That could pose a problem then. Maybe a post from some really OLD posters that you would identify as reformed would keep things neutral?

 

 

I can't understand how you can not figure this out by yourself. It stares in your eyes when you are an unapologetic other woman at least. Perhaps if you share their views it is more difficult to see?

 

This is a true statement. And, it goes both ways. Its easier to be offended by a view you don't share or agree with. And I think that's the problem here. Like I said in a previous post, I think both views are valid for those holding them.

 

I don't think that everyone that can agree with some of what the self-identified as "reformed" say about affairs or about the married people that engage in them. Because I do come at this as a former BW, I can agree with the "happy" OW and say that the MM is not completely bad or evil or intending great harm to the OW. Its not because I "have" to believe this to stay married to him, its because its true. My H is an honorable man that has done a dishonorable thing. I can agree that is the case with many MM.

 

I think that labels have their place, but I have a huge problem when they lump all that disagree with one view in the same group. I don't think there is a such thing as a "reformed" MP. Just because a person returned to their marriage to make it work and regrets the things they did in their affairs, they are called "reformed"? What exactly is a "reformed" BS? One that has decided to cheat?

[NoIDidn't]

Just imagine someone posting a thread about "happy" OWs being delusional and dismissive of the very real hurt that they experienced during their affairs.

 

I re-read this and it doesn't say what I wanted it to say.

 

I meant, imagine a thread about "happy" OWs being delusional and dismissive to the very real hurt that the "not happy" OWs have experienced during their affairs.

 

I think, as in politics, the sides are talking pass each other.

[jennie-jennie]

I re-read this and it doesn't say what I wanted it to say.

 

I meant, imagine a thread about "happy" OWs being delusional and dismissive to the very real hurt that the "not happy" OWs have experienced during their affairs.

 

I think, as in politics, the sides are talking pass each other.

 

Well, isn't it the case that "happy" OW agree that there are affairs that suck and there are MM who lie and manipulate? But reformed OW generally have a problem admitting an option available in an affair can be being the happy other woman?