Got it Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I agree with OWoman. I made sure I owned every second of my time in an EMR as I detest the "victim" persona. And though I don't regret a moment of my EMR and love the man to bits I have no desire to do it again. I was involved with him based on him not him being married. I have no interest in married men as a category. I have always been in interested and in love with him. I think there are some that look back on the situation as "reformed" as a way to help others. I think others do it as a way to distance themselves from their own choices in the situation. And there are a lot of people in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyforhim Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I am currently out of my A by mutual consent of MM and myself. We took a break so he could decide independent of me whether or not he wants to stay in his M or not. Good thing in our situation is that we never had a D-Day. Personally I think alot of OW probably prefer to look back on their A as a bad experience, full of lies and deceit, because it personally helps them feel better after being thrown under the bus on D-Day. I'm not judging as I probably would do the same thing in the circumstance, but I think it gives the OW a defense mechanism with their coping after not being selected. If he's such a lying, deceitful man and not capable of ever having a real relationship, I'm just that much better off that he chose to stay with the W. Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Because if they remember fondly the love and beauty that did exist in the relationship they had, then they would miss the person who broke their heart. Being angry and warning others against what they percieve as the mistakes they made is a way of saving themselves from the pain of admitting they really did love, and they really were loved and it just didn't work out. Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I guess you could say I am 'reformed' but my change of mind/heart didn't come from the OW side of my dealings. It came from my 'wayward' side. I was never really emotionally invested in any of the married/engaged/involved guys I was with - or, I should say I was but only up to a point. When I talk about how MM lie, manipulate and so on - I'm not saying that as a reformed OW. I say that as a reformed hardcore, cakeeating serial cheater. I can recognize the behavior having lived it for so long. I post about it, because I can't undo the past and unhurt people. All I can do is hope that I can give some insight from the 'dark side' so that people can get more perspective. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Pure in Heart you put that really well. I regret losing the person I once knew. Its really awful to sit in front of the clone that he shows me in his place. Stiff wooden describing the facts in front of him as if he were on LSD... its weird and strange and sad. He takes everday occurences and ascribes meaning to them that noone else knowing the underlying facts would and tells me I am wrong when I say no, the reason that x was y... when of course any fool knows I am wrong. But he refuses to acknowledge that the past has any bearing on the present. I know this is his coping strategy but its like dealing with a delusional person. Anyway I agree with OWoman. People who feel like they have seen the light are sometimes evangelical about it. As for me, had he been better at having an A, Id still be in it. He just sucked at having an affair and sucks at dealing with the aftermath. I used to say it was me who was in over my head, I now realize its him. He just didnt know what he was dealing with when he started with me. He thought I was like all the others and I wasnt. Did we have the same guy????? LOL....Jennie's thread brought to my rememberance that I used to say to now exDM..."what happened, you are not the same person"...I am not kidding, it was exactly like night and day after talking to our co-worker (which I might add, he was bi-sexual and had the hots for exDM and was jealous of me, so I doubt he was objective). Yep...(bold) to a tee...wow when I read your reply I was astonished, to say the VERY least, at how there were few words, yet they all fit.... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Scorp your gonna run out of #'s Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Jennie, your drug analogy is correct up to a point. Yes,. I will remember those first months, for the rest of my life, it was amazing to meet and fall in love with my MW. It was like a new , pretty present , with bright wrappings, that when you open it it was wonderful, but gradually grew old and stale with time. With drug addiction, it takes ever and ever increasing amounts to achieve the same high. With an affair, it's not the same, if the affair is an exit one, then it changes to a regular relationship, once the marriage is over. There is no steady increase of pleasure. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) I wasn't going to respond to this thread as I saw it was directed at "some OW"; ie those that changed their minds after the A was over. Then I saw that not all posters are in that category anyway; so I may as well have my say. I think the good old Occam's razor can be applied here to any psycho-babble used to explain this apparent change of heart. The simple explanation is that the aftermath of an A is so horrible to most OW (despite occasionally enjoying the A while it was ongoing) that they would not willingly do it again and would in good conscience try to discourage anyone else, about to go down that path. This is one overwhelming lesson I take from the OW/OM forum, but of course I am a BW so I already know it (even though I didn't before). The unfortunate thing is, I've concluded, that it's one of those lessons one learns only from experience. Former OW whose As have ended badly, know it as do BWs. OWs still in As do not know it and simply cannot know it and so do not believe it. Myrtle, there is truth in what you are saying, but I can not see how a bad ending would undo years of an enjoyable relationship. I have experience of a long term abusive relationship and its ending. I look back at that relationship, which lasted most of my adult life, and I look at the good stuff as well as the bad stuff. I know why I stayed so long despite the abuse. I know it was my own decision to stay. I know that there are things to love about that man as well as I know that he is a very wounded person and because of that hurts others. I know that he did not deeply love me and still I chose to stay with him. He needed me more than he loved me. I was the one who loved him. But I own my history, just like OWoman said. So although I have never been the long term OW before, I do have experience of a relationship ending which I can look back at and think that I should never have gone into that relationship, and certainly not have stayed there for decades, and yet I know it was of my own choosing. And I still love that man, although not in the in-love sense anymore. I would never call him a liar, a manipulator, etc. I would however call him a serial WS, although this became more and more unusual with the years. Edited March 8, 2010 by jennie-jennie Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 As for me, had he been better at having an A, Id still be in it. He just sucked at having an affair and sucks at dealing with the aftermath. I used to say it was me who was in over my head, I now realize its him. He just didnt know what he was dealing with when he started with me. He thought I was like all the others and I wasnt. JJ, I just love your honesty above! Good for you you are a strong woman! Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 One of the things that I've had to do, is be more introspective about my own character during and after the A. Self -delusion is an ever present evil that all OM/OW's have to guard against. What part of the A was my responsibility, what part was the WS's? Did the good in the affair out-weigh the bad? I don't think that I have all the answers, nor do I think that ANY OM/OW has all the answers either. For me, it was an awakening. I'm not as good as I thought I was, not as moral , not as honest. I will change these flaws, in the future. I also will never believe in anyone as much, nor ever trust anyone as much. Innocence is the first casualty of an affair. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 So JJ are you saying it's wrong for an OW or OM to change after their affair experience? To change their views completely? Or because someone is an OW or OM, and the A ends, they MUST still have the same views? I'm just honestly curious.. I am not saying it is wrong, I am just wondering why. We all have different ways of dealing with what happens in our lives. I am interested in knowing more about what motivates the reformed other women. Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Sorry, Jennie, I thought that you meant all OP's not just women. I'll bow out. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 In my case it's not about changing my mind, it's about clarity and seeing the relationship for what it was. If my xMM was truly the man he had pretended to be, the man I cared for, our situation would be very different. Thank you, StoptheDrama, I appreciate your reply. I am sure most of us just like you have experience of falling in love with a man who turns out not to be who we thought he was. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) I agree with OWoman. I made sure I owned every second of my time in an EMR as I detest the "victim" persona. And though I don't regret a moment of my EMR and love the man to bits I have no desire to do it again. I was involved with him based on him not him being married. I have no interest in married men as a category. I have always been in interested and in love with him. I think there are some that look back on the situation as "reformed" as a way to help others. I think others do it as a way to distance themselves from their own choices in the situation. And there are a lot of people in the middle. I think you are on to something here, Got it, the helping others. This again reminds me of the born again Christians. "If you would only see the light, you would be saved." It does however mean that these reformed other women would be coming from a place of doing good rather than a place of judging and condemning. Edited March 8, 2010 by jennie-jennie Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 Sorry, Jennie, I thought that you meant all OP's not just women. I'll bow out. Just saw this post, JustJoe, of course I mean both other men and other women! I am just being sloppy by talking about OW, since the majority of the posters here are OW. Forgive me! I am very interested in what other men have to say as well. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 One of the things that I've had to do, is be more introspective about my own character during and after the A. Self -delusion is an ever present evil that all OM/OW's have to guard against. What part of the A was my responsibility, what part was the WS's? Did the good in the affair out-weigh the bad? I don't think that I have all the answers, nor do I think that ANY OM/OW has all the answers either. For me, it was an awakening. I'm not as good as I thought I was, not as moral , not as honest. I will change these flaws, in the future. I also will never believe in anyone as much, nor ever trust anyone as much. Innocence is the first casualty of an affair. Very interesting and thoughtful summary of what your affair brought with it. I must believe you came out of the affair a better and more knowledgeable person about yourself and life in general. I like the way you approach it. Sorry about the innocence though, but ain't that the truth about a lot of our life experiences? Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Former OW whose As have ended badly, know it as do BWs. OWs still in As do not know it and simply cannot know it and so do not believe it. I'm "none of the above". I've had several As, several different outcomes. I've had many other Rs, with equally diverse outcomes. But the same way that a R with a SG that "didn't work out" has never tempted me to hang out at high schools and try to scare the teenage girls there away from notions of sex, romance, or M, just because one or more of my own experiences didn't work out as I'd originally envisaged, I don't see the need to try to scare off OWs from the kind of R that may or may not suit what they require or their circumstances dictate, albeit for a while. My life, and its experiences, are not some universal norm that everybody else should be compelled to live by - they're simply the choices I've made because they suit me and my circumstances. There is nothing INHERENTLY damaging about an A to the OW. Some As may inflict damage on the OW, but others empower, affirm or enliven. There is no OSFA (one size fits all) on As. Rather than preaching hellfire and damnation, I find it far more useful to find out where the OW is, emotionally, and respond to the particular questions she has at the time, supporting rather than condemning. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 I guess you could say I am 'reformed' but my change of mind/heart didn't come from the OW side of my dealings. It came from my 'wayward' side. I was never really emotionally invested in any of the married/engaged/involved guys I was with - or, I should say I was but only up to a point. When I talk about how MM lie, manipulate and so on - I'm not saying that as a reformed OW. I say that as a reformed hardcore, cakeeating serial cheater. I can recognize the behavior having lived it for so long. I post about it, because I can't undo the past and unhurt people. All I can do is hope that I can give some insight from the 'dark side' so that people can get more perspective. Interesting, Lucrezia, I for one do appreciate your posts. I find they give me an interesting perspective. May I ask you if you believe all WS are hardcore cakeeaters or if this applies to a section of the WS? If you are talking about a section (however large), I agree with you about the manipulating and the lying. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 Did we have the same guy????? LOL....Jennie's thread brought to my rememberance that I used to say to now exDM..."what happened, you are not the same person"...I am not kidding, it was exactly like night and day after talking to our co-worker (which I might add, he was bi-sexual and had the hots for exDM and was jealous of me, so I doubt he was objective). Yep...(bold) to a tee...wow when I read your reply I was astonished, to say the VERY least, at how there were few words, yet they all fit.... ROTFL What a life you have lived, Pure! Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I guess that IMO it's more about self-improvement, than it is about being "reformed". I wouldn't want to be in another affair, but IF I were, I would handle it quite differently than I handled this one. For one thing (and this is where the lost innocence comes in) I would be much more demanding of my MW. She would have to prove her love with concrete actions, and not just words and sex. Words can be lies, and sex proves desire, neither prove love. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) I guess that IMO it's more about self-improvement, than it is about being "reformed". I wouldn't want to be in another affair, but IF I were, I would handle it quite differently than I handled this one. For one thing (and this is where the lost innocence comes in) I would be much more demanding of my MW. She would have to prove her love with concrete actions, and not just words and sex. Words can be lies, and sex proves desire, neither prove love. Self-improvement is the journey of life in my opinion. It is a project that will never be finished. I don't have the power to change someone else, but I always have the opportunity to improve myself. Therefore I tend to be self-reflective and I try to look at my situation without preconceptions to see what I can learn and improve about myself. Edited March 8, 2010 by jennie-jennie Link to post Share on other sites
JustJoe Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I agree completely. That's why I said self-improvement, rather than reformed. Reformed implies a moral issue,self-improvement implies a lack of experience/knowledge. I'm not going to say that I won't ever fall for a married woman again, but IF I do, I will be wise to the tricks that WS'S can pull. Fore-warned is fore-armed . Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 One of the things that I've had to do, is be more introspective about my own character during and after the A. Self -delusion is an ever present evil that all OM/OW's have to guard against. What part of the A was my responsibility, what part was the WS's? Did the good in the affair out-weigh the bad? I don't think that I have all the answers, nor do I think that ANY OM/OW has all the answers either. For me, it was an awakening. I'm not as good as I thought I was, not as moral , not as honest. I will change these flaws, in the future. I also will never believe in anyone as much, nor ever trust anyone as much. Innocence is the first casualty of an affair. JJ...we were just human, period...and that's ok. Hey, ya want to know why I think I ended up with exDM...to learn compassion. I totally jacked my very good friend for being in an A...OMG it was pathetic concerning my behavior. The same thing happened several years prior when I quit using drugs...man self righteousness at it's finest...totally cutting a friend of mine down for using and I ended up back in it and worse than ever. Compassion is the best thing that ever happened to anyone and I hope noone has to learn it the hard way... JJ try no to let the A taint a good future R....I'm not, and will be ready to roll here soon! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 ROTFL What a life you have lived, Pure! Yep, and thanks Jennie, I needed the laugh I just couldn't win with exDM!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 Pure, "to learn compassion", such an important lesson. When I was 27 and became very sick with a neurosis, I realized that we do not know what other people have gone through and what has made them into the persons they are. Life is so much more complicated than I realized when I was young. This is the closest I have ever come to forgive my mother who is a total narcissist and has a very compulsive/obsessive personality. My entire family of origin suffered the consequences of her abusive behaviour and we still do. Yet I do realize that I have not lived her life and therefore I try not to judge her. Link to post Share on other sites
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