Reformed other women

[pureinheart]

In thinking, the R with exDM was a part of the good, bad and ugly R's I've had in my life...no more, no less.

[JustJoe]

So maybe "altered", OM/OW's would be a good generic term.

[jennie-jennie]

So maybe "altered", OM/OW's would be a good generic term.

 

Hey, I like that, now we are getting somewhere.

 

I just want to say also that I was actually very much helped when I was new at LS when an older member pointed out that there was such a thing as reformed other women. It helped me understand the phenomena.

[JustJoe]

Oh, I have no doubt that there are, I'm just not one of them. Good night!

[jennie-jennie]

Oh, I have no doubt that there are, I'm just not one of them. Good night!

 

LOL, it is morning where I am, but good night to you and welcome to LS! I have enjoyed our discussion.

[jennie-jennie]

I'll try to go back and read through the entire thread later; for now I'm only addressing this first post.

 

I experienced an affair as an OW over a decade ago. I was young and, to be honest, more callous than I am today in many ways. I was wounded, due to other circumstances, and I thought I deserved or needed my MM somehow, I tried to just not think about the repercussions his actions and my enabling of his actions would have on another human being. He was the first man to ring bells for me in years and I was weak and selfish, and I knew it.

 

I never thought he wasn't sleeping with his wife; they were engaged when I met him, and he lied to me outrageously about everything, and offered me the moon, and I was more naive then than I am now so I halfway bought it. He said he would leave her if I said the word, but from my position of greater strength and wisdom now I know he was manipulating me. Even then, I knew that he probably was, but I tried not to see it. I refused to 'say the word' because I wanted him to break off his engagement because he didn't want to marry, if that was the truth, not because I said so. Looking back I see how neatly that probably played into his mindgame. <Shrug> He read people professionally, he was a cop, and several years older and more experienced than I.

 

He was more to blame for the situation than I was, but even then I accepted that I, too, was in the wrong. I had a place in the triangle and I felt guilt because I knew that I was playing an active role in wronging another human being. I just see it with greater objectivity now. At the time I was clouded with lust, vulnerability, selfishness, and confusion as well. I even wondered if I loved him, although I didn't trust him.

 

I experienced no D-Day. I gathered my resolve and took myself out of the equation because I didn't like what I was becoming or where it was heading. He had married and then blamed it on my indecision and came right back to me the day after he returned from his honeymoon, which actually helped me because it let me see more clearly the great failures in his character. Still, it took me a little more time to cut it off completely and it wasn't easy <shrug> but few worthwhile things are. I have done other difficult things in this life as well and will surely continue to do so, it is part of becoming a strong and capable and wise adult.

 

I resolved to never be involved in such a dark, hurtful human drama again, and I never have been. I misliked what I perceived as a taint on my, for lack of a better word, 'soul'.

 

I liked this post because to me it showed that the poster has found a better way of living for herself without condemning anyone else for what they are doing.

[moaningmyrtle]

I don't much like the use of the term "reformed OW" in this forum mainly because I have sensed a slightly pejorative aspect to the way it was used.

 

I recently went to an avant garde music concert that had some good aspects to it but also some bad. If at the end of this concert or any another experience, I decide the bad outweighed the good, or maybe that despite the good in it, ultimately it was not for me, then that becomes my reality.

 

If someone then asks my advice about that type of music then I'll recommend they don't go unless they enjoy discordant tones. I don't think that makes me a reformed anything (for example a reformed attender of avant garde music concerts).

 

It's not the same as a born-again Christan who has seen the light or had an epiphany - it is simply an experience that I started out enjoying and then later didn't. For some of those OW whose As ended badly (and there certainly seem to be a lot on this forum - not just the OW who post but frequently you can tells from the posts of the devastated BWs that it didn't go well for the OW either) they advise against As because ultimately it was terrible for them.

 

Reading this forum it would be an "emperor's no clothes" situation for anyone to deny that most As that have a d-day end badly for the OW. Given that mostly OW are not all bad people, they probably would regard it as unconscionable to actively encourage people to enter affairs with MM or to encourage an OW who is obviously hurting to continue in an A that is injuring her mental/emotional health.

 

I realise that some OW tolerate/welcome being in an affair and other former OW would "do it all again" but this thread is asking about those who have changed their minds.

 

BTW I am not an OW myself so take anything I say with a grain of salt if you want.

[pureinheart]

Hey, I like that, now we are getting somewhere.

 

I just want to say also that I was actually very much helped when I was new at LS when an older member pointed out that there was such a thing as reformed other women. It helped me understand the phenomena.

 

Until this last page I didnot understand the difference, or that there was a difference with "reformed" and "former"....there is a big difference.

 

Altered is good too

[jennie-jennie]

I recently went to an avant garde music concert that had some good aspects to it but also some bad. If at the end of this concert or any another experience, I decide the bad outweighed the good, or maybe that despite the good in it, ultimately it was not for me, then that becomes my reality.

 

That is fine, as long as you realize it is not everyone else's reality. It is when you decide that you have the perfect ear to hear if a tone is out of pitch or not that it becomes a problem.

 

A lot of the OW who fare badly of affairs just stop writing here when they are not able to go NC. These OW are not helped by persisting advice that NC is the only way to go. They are more helped by changing their mindset. If they later find the strength to end the extramarital relationship, that is fine, but as long as they are not there yet, they still need support.

[jennie-jennie]

It's not the same as a born-again Christan who has seen the light or had an epiphany

 

In my opinion the analogy of the born-again Christian is very fitting. My exSO is a born-again Christian. So I recognize the behavioral pattern.

[jj33]

Jennie I think you hit the nail on the head if someoen is not able to do NC they stop posting out of embarrassment and the knowledge that they will only get more of the same. But its an internal thing as you say. If you are being treated like dirt by ANYONE MM or otherwise and you stay and hope for something different, then its alaways a question of when have you had enough?

 

Same if you are in a position and you arent being treated like dirt per se but your needs arent met and you have no reason to think they ever will be. At what point do you stop hoping upon hope that the fates will change the situation?

 

Advice on this board is not a one size fits all but most people come here unhappy about their situation. For those that are unhappy and are ignoring the red flags, I think NC is the best option. But its a difficult thing to put into effect many times.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie I think you hit the nail on the head if someoen is not able to do NC they stop posting out of embarrassment and the knowledge that they will only get more of the same. But its an internal thing as you say. If you are being treated like dirt by ANYONE MM or otherwise and you stay and hope for something different, then its alaways a question of when have you had enough?

 

Same if you are in a position and you arent being treated like dirt per se but your needs arent met and you have no reason to think they ever will be. At what point do you stop hoping upon hope that the fates will change the situation?

 

Advice on this board is not a one size fits all but most people come here unhappy about their situation. For those that are unhappy and are ignoring the red flags, I think NC is the best option. But its a difficult thing to put into effect many times.

 

This is why every other woman should look at what she has in her relationship today and decide if it is worth it. You should not be in a destructive relationship with the hope that it will be getting better in the future, or stay as the OW suffering all the while and living only for the hope that one day you will be the only woman. You need to consider, if the relationship ends tomorrow, would I be okay with that? You need to look at whether the pros are outweighing the cons today.

 

By asking yourself these questions I believe you can stand there without regret when the affair ends even if you have been thrown under the bus. You will know that you looked at your situation with open eyes and stayed their willingly.

 

This is what I meant in my original post when I asked if the reformed other women were not grounded enough in themselves during the affair, did they skip this essential step?

Edited March 9, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[OWoman]

Is it not possible to own who you were and what you did and still have shame around it? I would think that this is not denial of history, but rather a level of growth and maturity.

 

Of course it's possible - but whether or not it is appropriate (and therefore indicative of growth and maturity) depends on whether or not what you did was "shameful" to begin with.

 

If, as a young child, you stole from the corner shop, and later in life you own what you did and feel ashamed of that - well, sure, that's growth and maturity.

 

If, as a young child, you were sexually abused by someone you trusted, and later in life you feel responsible, because you must have sent out "mixed messages" and feel ashamed of that - then no, I don't believe that's a sign of growth or maturity. I feel that would be inappropriate shame, a sign of an unhealthy psyche rather than a mature one.

 

For me, the key issue is - did you live, at the time, fully in accordance with your values and beliefs, authentically and with integrity? If yes, then any later "shame" would be misplaced, a reconstruction forced unnaturally onto a situation with hindsight. Morals and values differ, and so long as one acts with integrity within the bounds of one's own morals and values, authentically and fully, and within the bounds of the law, why the need for post-hoc shame?

 

Post-hoc shame reminds me uncomfortably of indigenous people who are told by missionaries that their way of life is wrong, dirty, and evil, and who are bludgeoned into feeling shame for what was perfectly fine - and often far morally superior to the missionaries' lifestyle and beliefs - for centuries before the missionaries came. It's cultural / moral imperialism, predicated on a notion that one person owns the truth and the "good", and the other/s are less worthy. Perhaps that's not an issue for people from imperialist first world nations, but for someone who comes from one of those set-upon countries who were victim to the worst excesses of colonial imperialism, such attitudes really rankle!

[White Flower]

I understand what NID is saying (and that no mention was made of labels being degrading)

 

I have seen this treatment of "reformed OW" on this site by "happy OW" and I have even experienced it myself as a "reformed WS". I have had posters make comments about my affair along the lines of "oh well then you must not have had the real connection that I ("happy OW") have" or "he must not have loved you the way my AP loves me".

 

It's like saying that the "reformed OW" (or "reformed WS") does not know the "true depths of love" because they are no longer in the affair and have grown and recovered from the pain they experienced in that relationship. If that is not an attempt to create some sort of twisted hierarchy then I don't know what it is (well I do have an idea but it is not for this thread ).

With all due respect anne1707 perhaps you chose your H over your AP due to morals as opposed to the 'real connection' then? I don't know your back story but I do know you will defend your choice to the end but on what merits? FWIW, any merits are fine but it will be hard to take it for face value since we know your H will read it as he posts here as well.

 

And if it was good old-fashioned morals then how does that make your H feel? Does he value your morals more than the deep love that he would otherwise feel? OTOH due you equate deep love with morals? By the way any example and any choice is fine and relevant to your life as you see fit because that is your experience. Who are we to judge?

 

You see, everything is relevant to each one's experience. Your story is no more or no less valuable or lived than anybody else's. We all have different reasons for being in an A and for some it was a great experience and for others a bad one. I don't believe this thread is intended to demoralize or categorize anyone and I don't believe there is a heirarchy.

 

I liked OWoman's analogy of the Born Again Christian. They know everything, once saved, and will preach it even to the converted as if their lesson is relevant to everybody else's. I know, I used to be one.

[jennie-jennie]

Of course it's possible - but whether or not it is appropriate (and therefore indicative of growth and maturity) depends on whether or not what you did was "shameful" to begin with.

 

If, as a young child, you stole from the corner shop, and later in life you own what you did and feel ashamed of that - well, sure, that's growth and maturity.

 

If, as a young child, you were sexually abused by someone you trusted, and later in life you feel responsible, because you must have sent out "mixed messages" and feel ashamed of that - then no, I don't believe that's a sign of growth or maturity. I feel that would be inappropriate shame, a sign of an unhealthy psyche rather than a mature one.

 

For me, the key issue is - did you live, at the time, fully in accordance with your values and beliefs, authentically and with integrity? If yes, then any later "shame" would be misplaced, a reconstruction forced unnaturally onto a situation with hindsight. Morals and values differ, and so long as one acts with integrity within the bounds of one's own morals and values, authentically and fully, and within the bounds of the law, why the need for post-hoc shame?

 

Post-hoc shame reminds me uncomfortably of indigenous people who are told by missionaries that their way of life is wrong, dirty, and evil, and who are bludgeoned into feeling shame for what was perfectly fine - and often far morally superior to the missionaries' lifestyle and beliefs - for centuries before the missionaries came. It's cultural / moral imperialism, predicated on a notion that one person owns the truth and the "good", and the other/s are less worthy. Perhaps that's not an issue for people from imperialist first world nations, but for someone who comes from one of those set-upon countries who were victim to the worst excesses of colonial imperialism, such attitudes really rankle!

 

So when the indigenous people stand up for themselves and their lifestyle and beliefs, is this a reversal of the hierarchy or is it a revolution with the aim to throw off the yoke of the masters?

[OWoman]

Seems to me that "Happy" OW simply don't like the reformed OWs because they can't shoot them down as being "BWs". So they get another label' date=' from those that say they hate labels BTW.[/quote']

 

I was a "happy" OW, and I'm now a "happy" MW. What I don't like about reformed OWs is the way that they assume that their view is the only valid one, and thus that:

 

* ALL As suck

* ALL OWs are damaged, low self-esteem broken humans deep in denial

* ALL MMs are "cake-eating" slimebags

* ALL MMs are happiest in the A, with two women on call

* ALL OWs really hate being the OW, but pretend otherwise

* ALL OWs will ultimately come round to their (ie, the "right") view, and will finally see the light, and come to realise how misguided they were

* ALL As end horribly - whichever way they end

* NC and ultimate dumping of the MM is the only way to redemption

* recanting the A and turning one's back on it is the only valid outcome of an A

* joining the ranks of the Righteous is the only way to happiness...

 

...despite all the evidence provided by lived examples here, to the contrary.

 

I dislike how ROWs try to render me invisible, trying to paint me out and pretend that I don't exist, because I don't fit their convenient world view, because I'm an unrepentant fOW who had no bad experiences in any of my As, who advocates As as equally valid to Ms or Rs with SGs as valid R choices to women, who recognises that women can choose an A from a position of strength and not only from a position of weakness, and - worst of all - whose MM left his M and Md the OW. I refuse to vanish because my outcome doesn't suit their fantasy world, and I refuse to accept the labels they try to pin on me to excuse me into their world view. I recognise the limitations of their monocular vision as being THEIR limitations, and not MY failure to conform to their expectations.

 

Like black people who refuse to be labeled "non-white" and defined / othered by white people, or gay people who refuse to be labelled, defined and othered by straights, I refuse to be defined and othered by people whose limitations or interests preclude them from acknowledging, recognising or accepting my reality. For me, it's a political choice and not just a semantic one. They may not like my life, but I have as much right to live it as they do theirs.

[OWoman]

So when the indigenous people stand up for themselves and their lifestyle and beliefs, is this a reversal of the hierarchy or is it a revolution with the aim to throw off the yoke of the masters?

 

The wars of liberation I've been close enough to observe have been about the overthrow of hierarchy, not the replacement of one by another. (In some cases, there have been subsequent hierarchies which have developed around oligarchies of power / access to resources, but those were never the aim of the liberation wars).

[anne1707]

With all due respect anne1707 perhaps you chose your H over your AP due to morals as opposed to the 'real connection' then?

 

 

Haven't you just proved my point! That some will consider someone who is happy to no longer be in an affair as someone who does not know a real connection is.

 

And I chose my husband for love, passion, initimacy, friendship - I would never have insulted him by choosing him because it was the moral thing to do.

[jennie-jennie]

Haven't you just proved my point! That some will consider someone who is happy to no longer be in an affair as someone who does not know a real connection is.

 

And I chose my husband for love, passion, initimacy, friendship - I would never have insulted him by choosing him because it was the moral thing to do.

 

No, I believe WF was claiming that since you knew "the true depths of love" in your affair, there must have been a real connection there, and thus there might be other reasons for you choosing your husband, as for example morals.

 

Correct me if I am interpreting you wrong, WF.

[anne1707]

But the love I have for my husband is far deeper and more real than anything I ever thought/felt for the ex-OM

[OWoman]

Haven't you just proved my point! That some will consider someone who is happy to no longer be in an affair as someone who does not know a real connection is.

 

My H is very happy to be no longer in an A. And he certainly knows what a real connection is!

 

I don't think that that was what WF was saying, or meaning. I read her post as asking, since you distanced yourself from the notion of "real connection" in your post, what the motivation for deciding (one way or the other) was. If one doesn't decide on the basis of a "real connection", on what basis can one make a decision of such magnitude? (A question you subsequently answered in this post.)

 

That was how I read it - apologies WF if I'm putting words in your mouth here.

[OWoman]

But the love I have for my husband is far deeper and more real than anything I ever thought/felt for the ex-OM

 

Fair enough, and it's great that your choice resonated with that knowledge. My H's choice resonated with his "deeper connection", too - but I know of others who've not been able to make that decision, for reasons of duty or obligation. It does leave them unhappy, or at best numb.

[jennie-jennie]

But the love I have for my husband is far deeper and more real than anything I ever thought/felt for the ex-OM

 

I am happy to hear that. That sounds wonderful. Sometimes even a deep felt love turns out not to be what we thought it was, and then we realize we had what we wanted at home all the time.

[anne1707]

I think we are all talking at cross purposes here

 

During my affair, I had feelings about the ex-OM which would be very similar to those felt by other posters on LS. My frustration is that as I am very happy with my H and glad that I am with him and not the ex-OM, some will imply that I must not have had those feelings. That is what I disagree with.

 

 

By the way JJ. I think "ex-" says it all. To me "ex-" means that you are no better or worse than those who are still involved in an affair. I am an ex-WS. I used to be a WS but I am not now. Simple as that.

[anne1707]

I am happy to hear that. That sounds wonderful. Sometimes even a deep felt love turns out not to be what we thought it was, and then we realize we had what we wanted at home all the time.

 

Very true. This was certainly the case for me