Reformed other women

[OWoman]

I think "ex-" says it all. To me "ex-" means that you are no better or worse than those who are still involved in an affair. I am an ex-WS. I used to be a WS but I am not now. Simple as that.

 

I think the intention of this thread was to distinguish a subtype of xOW / fOW. Some xOW / fOW are unrepentant, and some are reformed. This thread was addressed to the issue of the latter, whose positions change so radically, while the former category don't.

 

I used to be an OW, but am no longer one. I may in the future become one again, or I may not - depending on what happens and what choices I make. For now, I am happy to be sexually exclusive with my H, just as I was happy with the choices I made previously. I regret nothing. It has made me who I am, and I'm happy with that.

[jennie-jennie]

I think the intention of this thread was to distinguish a subtype of xOW / fOW. Some xOW / fOW are unrepentant, and some are reformed. This thread was addressed to the issue of the latter, whose positions change so radically, while the former category don't.

 

I used to be an OW, but am no longer one. I may in the future become one again, or I may not - depending on what happens and what choices I make. For now, I am happy to be sexually exclusive with my H, just as I was happy with the choices I made previously. I regret nothing. It has made me who I am, and I'm happy with that.

 

Earlier we were discussing the validity of the term "happy OW/OM". So now I got to thinking if "unapologetic" or "unrepentant" would be a better choice. To distinguish between these two words I looked them up in Onelook Dictionary:

 

unapologetic:

"▸ adjective: unwilling to make or express an apology"

 

unrepentant:

"▸ adjective: not penitent or remorseful

▸ adjective: stubbornly persistent in wrongdoing"

 

I love the second definition of "unrepentant"!

 

 

So what do you guys think: "unapologetic" or "unrepentant" - would any of these labels do? JustJoe, I need you now! Would you fit into any of these categories?

[RedDevil66]

I'll try to go back and read through the entire thread later; for now I'm only addressing this first post.

 

I experienced an affair as an OW over a decade ago. I was young and, to be honest, more callous than I am today in many ways. I was wounded, due to other circumstances, and I thought I deserved or needed my MM somehow, I tried to just not think about the repercussions his actions and my enabling of his actions would have on another human being. He was the first man to ring bells for me in years and I was weak and selfish, and I knew it.

 

He was more to blame for the situation than I was, but even then I accepted that I, too, was in the wrong. I had a place in the triangle and I felt guilt because I knew that I was playing an active role in wronging another human being. I just see it with greater objectivity now. At the time I was clouded with lust, vulnerability, selfishness, and confusion as well. I even wondered if I loved him, although I didn't trust him.

 

I experienced no D-Day. I gathered my resolve and took myself out of the equation because I didn't like what I was becoming or where it was heading. He had married and then blamed it on my indecision and came right back to me the day after he returned from his honeymoon, which actually helped me because it let me see more clearly the great failures in his character. Still, it took me a little more time to cut it off completely and it wasn't easy <shrug> but few worthwhile things are. I have done other difficult things in this life as well and will surely continue to do so, it is part of becoming a strong and capable and wise adult.

 

I resolved to never be involved in such a dark, hurtful human drama again, and I never have been. I misliked what I perceived as a taint on my, for lack of a better word, 'soul'.

 

Stung, your words resonate with me to an exact "T"! My A was over a decade ago as well.

 

I would never call myself a reformed OW. I would prefer to call myself a reformed a*sshole!

[BB07]

Just wanted to chime in again on this subject.

 

I think a lot of our views/opinions we arrive at because of the particular place that we are in life and our relationships with the MM at the present time. For example.......a new poster who posts here often finds this place out of desperation, because they have few outlets in their realm of family or social contacts because most affairs are kept secret. New posters are often times in a lot of pain and greatly conflicted and a lot of them are angry, and more than likely get angrier when they read some of the posts here because they sometimes find a common theme, (that book that tells conniving MM what to say). Often times the posters are looking for a way out, or looking for hope that things will not remain as they are, because for the majority of OW's, it is NOT a happy place. Granted there are exceptions, but the majority of posters are not happy and some are guilt ridden, regretful and feeling powerless. Powerless is soul destroying and very painful.

 

Former OW's often feel the affair was a mistake because the MM did not leave for them or they feel they were taken for a ride and the train did not get to the right destination.

 

We should all live life in the hopes that we would have no regrets but in my experience, that's a very tough road to follow. Some people are fortunate in that their choices are very black and white, others given certain circumstances at a certain time in their lives find themselves entering a gray area and later regret it. Others are here because they made a fully informed choice and don't have a problem with it. The board has various OW from all the above and I'm sure I didn't cover it all, but it's a sample of the folks that are here.

 

For me personally because of my background and upbringing, I wish I had not got involved with a MM but yet I don't regret falling in love and still loving this particular man. He is a good and decent man, but he has made mistakes, and grave ones at that, but then so have I. Do his mistakes and my mistakes of the past negate deserving good things in the future. I don't think so, but the reality is, it certainly makes things a lot more complicated.

 

I know a lot of what I've said sounds contradictory and some of it is. I regret the affair because that time in my life was very painful, (loving and wanting more than I could have), the guilt then and still sometimes now is hard. It damaged my already fragile self esteem. I'm sorry that I didn't live by and abide by my own moral code. I'm sorry that my involvement with him at that time may have hurt another person. I'm sorry that I didn't have enough strength to walk away when I knew I should have. I'm sorry that I didn't think enough of myself to believe that I deserved what I truly wanted.

 

So yes my advice tends to side with the walk away quickly and sooner than later is better and or don't go there at all. I remember so well how bad it was, when it was bad it was truly gut wrenching. The OW that is content and happy with the circumstances is a rare exception in my opinion, but yet we are a diverse group of people here.

 

Hope some of this made sense......it seems like I was all over the place with my thoughts.

[jennie-jennie]

Just wanted to chime in again on this subject.

 

I think a lot of our views/opinions we arrive at because of the particular place that we are in life and our relationships with the MM at the present time. For example.......a new poster who posts here often finds this place out of desperation, because they have few outlets in their realm of family or social contacts because most affairs are kept secret. New posters are often times in a lot of pain and greatly conflicted and a lot of them are angry, and more than likely get angrier when they read some of the posts here because they sometimes find a common theme, (that book that tells conniving MM what to say). Often times the posters are looking for a way out, or looking for hope that things will not remain as they are, because for the majority of OW's, it is NOT a happy place. Granted there are exceptions, but the majority of posters are not happy and some are guilt ridden, regretful and feeling powerless. Powerless is soul destroying and very painful.

 

Former OW's often feel the affair was a mistake because the MM did not leave for them or they feel they were taken for a ride and the train did not get to the right destination.

 

We should all live life in the hopes that we would have no regrets but in my experience, that's a very tough road to follow. Some people are fortunate in that their choices are very black and white, others given certain circumstances at a certain time in their lives find themselves entering a gray area and later regret it. Others are here because they made a fully informed choice and don't have a problem with it. The board has various OW from all the above and I'm sure I didn't cover it all, but it's a sample of the folks that are here.

 

For me personally because of my background and upbringing, I wish I had not got involved with a MM but yet I don't regret falling in love and still loving this particular man. He is a good and decent man, but he has made mistakes, and grave ones at that, but then so have I. Do his mistakes and my mistakes of the past negate deserving good things in the future. I don't think so, but the reality is, it certainly makes things a lot more complicated.

 

I know a lot of what I've said sounds contradictory and some of it is. I regret the affair because that time in my life was very painful, (loving and wanting more than I could have), the guilt then and still sometimes now is hard. It damaged my already fragile self esteem. I'm sorry that I didn't live by and abide by my own moral code. I'm sorry that my involvement with him at that time may have hurt another person. I'm sorry that I didn't have enough strength to walk away when I knew I should have. I'm sorry that I didn't think enough of myself to believe that I deserved what I truly wanted.

 

So yes my advice tends to side with the walk away quickly and sooner than later is better and or don't go there at all. I remember so well how bad it was, when it was bad it was truly gut wrenching. The OW that is content and happy with the circumstances is a rare exception in my opinion, but yet we are a diverse group of people here.

 

Hope some of this made sense......it seems like I was all over the place with my thoughts.

 

BB, I do think you are on to something here. I did not choose to have an affair, I chose to have a relationship with this particular man, and because of the circumstances he is in at this point of his life our relationship is an extramarital relationship.

 

I would not recommend any woman, unless it is a conscious choice like for Lizzie and OWoman, to seek an affair. If possible, do not go there. But if you are already in love with a married man, it becomes a completely different matter in my opinion. Then it is the man you are seeking, not the affair.

 

Originally posted by BB07:

"Former OW's often feel the affair was a mistake because the MM did not leave for them or they feel they were taken for a ride and the train did not get to the right destination."

 

That it why it has to be about wanting to be on the journey, not wanting to arrive at a particular destination. Again, the question I suggested above that OW ask themselves every day, would I want to be in this relationship if it ends tomorrow?

Edited March 9, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[OWoman]

So yes my advice tends to side with the walk away quickly and sooner than later is better and or don't go there at all. I remember so well how bad it was, when it was bad it was truly gut wrenching. The OW that is content and happy with the circumstances is a rare exception in my opinion, but yet we are a diverse group of people here.

 

BB, if an OW is in pain, clearly unhappy in her A then there is nothing wrong with suggesting she walk (or run!) away from it. That is being sensitive to her needs, and giving her the best support you can.

 

The issue is with those ROWs who feel that ANY OW, whether happy or not, HAS TO dump her MM and institute immediate NC - whether or not that's what she wants - and any reluctance / failure / inability to do so makes her a whore or a slut or some other insult they choose to apply. Rather than coming from a place of empathy, it comes from a place of judgment - "I used to be a piece of rubbish like you, but I hauled myself up by my bootstraps to a better place, so so must you, or rot in the fires of damnation eternally!" That's very different to those fOWs who say, "I was there too. It sucks, but it does get better. Here's what helped me". I find the latter approach far more helpful, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

[JustJoe]

I came to LS on the advice of my aunt and uncle (former posters) because they thought it would help me with my post-affair blues, to talk to other OM/OW's, who have experienced the same feelings. I have read with much interest everyone's opinions and experiences, and have found it very helpful. Owoman, you are an interesting woman, wise and mature on the one hand, self-delusional and rigid on the other. I really hope to get to know you better.

[donnamaybe]

Love and fog are just viewpoints and feelings. Those drugs are love drugs. You had the same fog when you fell in love once.

 

Your love is not more real than others. You may view it as others love in fog only and you love in true if you like. Equally, they could say yours is the same illusion.

 

Please stop saying love in an A is just fog in all situations.

 

Yes love causes drugs etc. In an A or in any love situation. Yours too,

 

I'm NOT going to stop saying what I believe simply because someone on a message board tells me to do so.

 

An A is NOT a "real relationship" IMO because an A involves stolen moments, hidden "love;" not the every day sharing all moments together rather than only the ones no one else can see when you get a chance for a romp or a dinner at a secluded restaurant. The "fog" never has a chance to dissipate in deference to deeper love because the A partners are generally on their best behavior; one in order to keep one dangling on their line - the other to hopefully win their AP's full time attention away from the BS. They don't have a chance to experience the "whole person" in an A - the good AND the bad. All they see are the best parts - the same things one sees early on in a budding relationship when two people are trying to impress each other.

 

That is MY opinion, and I am entitled to it.

[JustJoe]

Donna, ther is much truth in what you say, but I disagree with your final statement. By being in an affair, you are confronted, at every meeting with BOTH the best AND the worst of your AP, as well as yourself. You are in an extra-marital affair, so you Know that your ws is capable of deceit and betrayal. He/she may try to put the best possible face on it by blaming their respective BS'S and maybe you have great passion, but you still are aware of what your ws is willing to do.

[OWoman]

Owoman, you are an interesting woman, wise and mature on the one hand, self-delusional and rigid on the other.

 

One person's "delusion" is another person's core value. I live authentically and with integrity according to my values, fully aware that not everybody shares those. It makes my life, and my choices, no less valid than those who follow the herd (and, possibly, a little more interesting than theirs!)

 

I don't do rigid - I find it too boring. I thrive on the excitement of change! But then, I don't do mature or wise either - that's far too middle-aged to my mind!

 

Sorry Joe - I don't give you too many points for that one

[OWoman]

An A is NOT a "real relationship" IMO because an A involves stolen moments, hidden "love;" not the every day sharing all moments together rather than only the ones no one else can see when you get a chance for a romp or a dinner at a secluded restaurant. The "fog" never has a chance to dissipate in deference to deeper love because the A partners are generally on their best behavior; one in order to keep one dangling on their line - the other to hopefully win their AP's full time attention away from the BS. They don't have a chance to experience the "whole person" in an A - the good AND the bad. All they see are the best parts - the same things one sees early on in a budding relationship when two people are trying to impress each other.

 

Donna, that's fine insofar as it goes - but that's only a subsection of As you're describing there. I've had As that fit that description - the kind where you phone the guy up on a whim because you feel like a bit of a buzz, and then you forget him ten minutes after you've had your fill of him, and go back to your real life... - but I've also had the other kind, where you're integrated into his life, sharing friends, family, acquaintances; sharing chores as well as excitement; sharing sorrow as well as fun; sitting together at death beds or christenings or concerts; building a future together.

 

Love is certainly possible in an A. I've lived it, and am living its consequences still.

[JustJoe]

Owoman , I wasn't trying to diss you , but I wasn't trying to flatter you, either. Your remark about the "herd", is an indication of your rigidity. You are convinced of the "rightness", of your experience, ( and why shouldn't you be? you are the exception to the rule, you fell in love, had an affair, married your AP and lived happily ever after) and so have very thinly disguised contempt for the "herd", the un-interesting, or the middle-aged. I mean no offense, but I try to listen to all points-of-view, and find value in them. Again, no offense is intended.

[OWoman]

Earlier we were discussing the validity of the term "happy OW/OM". So now I got to thinking if "unapologetic" or "unrepentant" would be a better choice. To distinguish between these two words I looked them up in Onelook Dictionary:

 

unapologetic:

"▸ adjective: unwilling to make or express an apology"

 

unrepentant:

"▸ adjective: not penitent or remorseful

▸ adjective: stubbornly persistent in wrongdoing"

 

I love the second definition of "unrepentant"!

 

 

So what do you guys think: "unapologetic" or "unrepentant" - would any of these labels do? JustJoe, I need you now! Would you fit into any of these categories?

 

I'm beyond unrepentant - I'm celebratory!

[donnamaybe]

Donna, that's fine insofar as it goes - but that's only a subsection of As you're describing there. I've had As that fit that description - the kind where you phone the guy up on a whim because you feel like a bit of a buzz, and then you forget him ten minutes after you've had your fill of him, and go back to your real life... - but I've also had the other kind, where you're integrated into his life, sharing friends, family, acquaintances; sharing chores as well as excitement; sharing sorrow as well as fun; sitting together at death beds or christenings or concerts; building a future together.

 

Love is certainly possible in an A. I've lived it, and am living its consequences still.

 

And how many of the former experiences have you had compared to the latter? Isn't your current M the only A that fits the latter? Just read the stories on LS. I would presume to guesstimate that 99% of them are the former.

 

As for "happy OW/OM," again, IMO only, most of them just SAY they're happy with their situation (many who even admit they would prefer their AP to leave the BS ) simply to save face. It makes them appear more "in control" of their own situation that way.

[donnamaybe]

Donna, ther is much truth in what you say, but I disagree with your final statement. By being in an affair, you are confronted, at every meeting with BOTH the best AND the worst of your AP, as well as yourself. You are in an extra-marital affair, so you Know that your ws is capable of deceit and betrayal. He/she may try to put the best possible face on it by blaming their respective BS'S and maybe you have great passion, but you still are aware of what your ws is willing to do.

 

I'm sorry, but a MM/MW who is claiming to their AP that their marriage sucks and they are just trying to find the "right time" to leave so their kids/finances/spouse won't be most hurt is putting a better face on their REAL behavior to keep the A going. If they really just told you, "Look. I'm never going to leave my spouse. All I want is for you to be available for fantasy dinners, fun dates, and great sex when I want" would the affair continue? In rare cases, that is all an OW/OM wants. In most... not at all.

[BB07]

BB, I do think you are on to something here. I did not choose to have an affair, I chose to have a relationship with this particular man, and because of the circumstances he is in at this point of his life our relationship is an extramarital relationship.

 

I would not recommend any woman, unless it is a conscious choice like for Lizzie and OWoman, to seek an affair. If possible, do not go there. But if you are already in love with a married man, it becomes a completely different matter in my opinion. Then it is the man you are seeking, not the affair.

 

Originally posted by BB07:

"Former OW's often feel the affair was a mistake because the MM did not leave for them or they feel they were taken for a ride and the train did not get to the right destination."

 

That it why it has to be about wanting to be on the journey, not wanting to arrive at a particular destination. Again, the question I suggested above that OW ask themselves every day, would I want to be in this relationship if it ends tomorrow?

 

 

That's a great question Jennie and to add to it, perhaps the OW could ask themselves this question also. Is the cost too high?

[JustJoe]

But don't these activities and stories told by the WS, show you the flaws in their character? I KNOW that I love my MW, and I KNOW that she (at some level) loves me, but I also know that she is capable of betrayal, and I also know that she will never leave her position of wealth and priviledge. I get her sex, and her affection, but I don't get her.

[BB07]

BB, if an OW is in pain, clearly unhappy in her A then there is nothing wrong with suggesting she walk (or run!) away from it. That is being sensitive to her needs, and giving her the best support you can.

 

The issue is with those ROWs who feel that ANY OW, whether happy or not, HAS TO dump her MM and institute immediate NC - whether or not that's what she wants - and any reluctance / failure / inability to do so makes her a whore or a slut or some other insult they choose to apply. Rather than coming from a place of empathy, it comes from a place of judgment - "I used to be a piece of rubbish like you, but I hauled myself up by my bootstraps to a better place, so so must you, or rot in the fires of damnation eternally!" That's very different to those fOWs who say, "I was there too. It sucks, but it does get better. Here's what helped me". I find the latter approach far more helpful, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

 

 

Your approach is a lot more kinder and gentler and that's a good thing.

 

Each situation is unique and each poster comes here with their personal experience either good or bad, most often a mixture of both. It would be nice if it didn't influence us in our response to other posters.......but it does. OW/OM & the AP is such a volatile topic, that it's really difficult to not have a strong opinion about it, one way or the other. Kindness and trying to understand is key.

[OWoman]

And how many of the former experiences have you had compared to the latter? Isn't your current M the only A that fits the latter? Just read the stories on LS. I would presume to guesstimate that 99% of them are the former.

 

I've only had one of those - out of MY choice. Some of the other MMs offered / wanted that, but I didn't, so I historied them. But I do know of several others IRL that are like this - long-standing As, some ongoing for years, some for decades. Some stay As because that suits the OW, others may change to something else, IDK.

[donnamaybe]

I've only had one of those - out of MY choice. Some of the other MMs offered / wanted that, but I didn't, so I historied them. But I do know of several others IRL that are like this - long-standing As, some ongoing for years, some for decades. Some stay As because that suits the OW, others may change to something else, IDK.

 

So you have had one. Of those that offered, were they a real offer? One would know ONLY if the AP left the BS.

 

And, yes. Many A's go on far too long. Sadly enough.

[OWoman]

Owoman , I wasn't trying to diss you , but I wasn't trying to flatter you, either. Your remark about the "herd", is an indication of your rigidity. You are convinced of the "rightness", of your experience, ( and why shouldn't you be? you are the exception to the rule, you fell in love, had an affair, married your AP and lived happily ever after) and so have very thinly disguised contempt for the "herd", the un-interesting, or the middle-aged. I mean no offense, but I try to listen to all points-of-view, and find value in them. Again, no offense is intended.

 

None taken

[OWoman]

So you have had one. Of those that offered, were they a real offer? One would know ONLY if the AP left the BS.

 

They did.

[donnamaybe]

They did.

 

So when you say is that because you're sad you didn't explore the possibility of something with one of them? I wouldn't think so; you seem so happy with your sweety.

[OWoman]

So when you say is that because you're sad you didn't explore the possibility of something with one of them? I wouldn't think so; you seem so happy with your sweety.

 

It's because they thought that that was on the agenda, despite my being upfront with what I wanted. They canned Ms which seemed pretty OK to me for some fantasy that was never even a possibility. (And it wrecked good As, in the process )

 

They should have stayed put, IMO.

[donnamaybe]

It's because they thought that that was on the agenda, despite my being upfront with what I wanted. They canned Ms which seemed pretty OK to me for some fantasy that was never even a possibility. (And it wrecked good As, in the process )

 

They should have stayed put, IMO.

 

Well, consider it a public service on your part then. If it was that easy to dump their wives, then you did their wives a favor.