Reformed other women

[torranceshipman]

I don't want to generalize as everyone is an individual...but there is one commonality (in terms of an experience or event) that all ex-OW share - they have hindsight. And there is one experience/event that all OW share-they are still in the A.

 

Those different positions will lead to different views on everything between OWs and ex-OW's. And because of the high emotion involved in an A situation, I do feel that lots of OW want to think that xOM's are only passing on bad news after the A, because they are bitter, or didn't get what they want, and that they 'chose' the wrong MM, and that what they have is different - that way they don't need to listen to the warnings that some really well meaning xOW's are trying to pass on.

 

Sure, it can be true sometimes that an xOW is bitter!-and mean spirited because she didnt get what she wanted (etc). But for SO many xOW's, the majority I'd say - it is so frustrating and excrutiating to see so many nightmare stories on the board of people that are being gaslighted, lied to, demeaning themselves without realizing it, giving up their happiness for some weak, pathetic joe schmoe that is lying to the W, the family and the OW - and the xOW wants to point it out so at least they can warn someone else off. To be fair, people on this board warned me off some idiot I was dating (with a girlifreind) years ago and I genuinely lost some naivete and moved on from the situation pronto. Realizing they were right about this guy meant I looked back on him as a lying idiot (which he was) - not out of bitterness - simply because I now had the full story. The advice here can be really good even if you don't like it - it might not be nice to hear but it can come from a good place.

 

But of course people need to experience things for themselves - I can guarantee some of the most strong voices for As right now will be here years later, and they'll be xOWs, saying they caouldn't believe what the xMM did in the end, that they never know him and didnt realize he would lie, etc, warning other people off for the same reasons.

[pureinheart]

BB, if an OW is in pain, clearly unhappy in her A then there is nothing wrong with suggesting she walk (or run!) away from it. That is being sensitive to her needs, and giving her the best support you can.

 

The issue is with those ROWs who feel that ANY OW, whether happy or not, HAS TO dump her MM and institute immediate NC - whether or not that's what she wants - and any reluctance / failure / inability to do so makes her a whore or a slut or some other insult they choose to apply. Rather than coming from a place of empathy, it comes from a place of judgment - "I used to be a piece of rubbish like you, but I hauled myself up by my bootstraps to a better place, so so must you, or rot in the fires of damnation eternally!" That's very different to those fOWs who say, "I was there too. It sucks, but it does get better. Here's what helped me". I find the latter approach far more helpful, and I doubt I'm alone in that.[/QUOTE]

 

One of these days, when I have some extra time, will go through the old postings from when I first joined LS to verify what I am about to say...possibly I didnot pay attention to insults, if there were any at that time.

 

When first joining there was support, although was it because I wanted out of the EA? I went NC and received a great deal of support. Being unable to post due to working with a major physical ailment that got worse, I lost touch on the boards for a couple of years.

 

When posting again I was shocked to see the insults/innuendoes and general tone of certain posters. It appeared as if OW were being put on the defensive, or in the defense mode (am using this phrasing this for lack of better words). Am not sure, due to still learning everyones story/background again whether they are OW/BS's.

 

JMO, all of us are entitled to communicate our own circumstances the way we see fit...our circunstances to own in whatever way we choose at the time...this will change as we are a people of great change, we will grow in knowledge and understanding (at the very least this is my hope), as that is what these boards are for.

 

Every situation is different....in mine, due to the severity, NC was a must. I was ready to stick to it and actually had been in a non formal NC for some months...creating distance basically.

 

Some of the ladies are unable to stay within the confines of what NC really means and then feel a sense of failure when they break NC...this constant "failure" causes even more discouragement, thus some quit posting due to "letting someone down"...this is what is concerning me now.

 

People need room to be themseves, and that is what this particular forum is for.

[pureinheart]

Would any venture to say that some R's are only meant for a "season", meaning the purpose was served....right, wrong or indifferent, the purpose was served.

[pureinheart]

I don't want to generalize as everyone is an individual...but there is one commonality (in terms of an experience or event) that all ex-OW share - they have hindsight. And there is one experience/event that all OW share-they are still in the A.

 

Those different positions will lead to different views on everything between OWs and ex-OW's. And because of the high emotion involved in an A situation, I do feel that lots of OW want to think that xOM's are only passing on bad news after the A, because they are bitter, or didn't get what they want, and that they 'chose' the wrong MM, and that what they have is different - that way they don't need to listen to the warnings that some really well meaning xOW's are trying to pass on.

 

Sure, it can be true sometimes that an xOW is bitter!-and mean spirited because she didnt get what she wanted (etc). But for SO many xOW's, the majority I'd say - it is so frustrating and excrutiating to see so many nightmare stories on the board of people that are being gaslighted, lied to, demeaning themselves without realizing it, giving up their happiness for some weak, pathetic joe schmoe that is lying to the W, the family and the OW - and the xOW wants to point it out so at least they can warn someone else off. To be fair, people on this board warned me off some idiot I was dating (with a girlifreind) years ago and I genuinely lost some naivete and moved on from the situation pronto. Realizing they were right about this guy meant I looked back on him as a lying idiot (which he was) - not out of bitterness - simply because I now had the full story. The advice here can be really good even if you don't like it - it might not be nice to hear but it can come from a good place.

 

But of course people need to experience things for themselves - I can guarantee some of the most strong voices for As right now will be here years later, and they'll be xOWs, saying they caouldn't believe what the xMM did in the end, that they never know him and didnt realize he would lie, etc, warning other people off for the same reasons.

 

I remember when you were with that guy and posting...I was going to ask you what happened...wow, that was a trip...

[torranceshipman]

I agree with that Pureinheart, at least in my case...I learnt a lot and it changed my character for the better, particularly in terms of judgment, setting down boundaries in black & white, and never compromizing them no matter what the situation...I also learnt a lot about human nature - a LOT that I didnt know...I also felt like I dodged a bullet cause if this had happened later on in life I have a feeling a lot more would have been messed up...I also learnt what I DON'T ever want from a person in my life...so that crappy R definitely had a purpose...

[pureinheart]

I agree with that Pureinheart, at least in my case...I learnt a lot and it changed my character for the better, particularly in terms of judgment, setting down boundaries in black & white, and never compromizing them no matter what the situation...I also learnt a lot about human nature - a LOT that I didnt know...I also felt like I dodged a bullet cause if this had happened later on in life I have a feeling a lot more would have been messed up...I also learnt what I DON'T ever want from a person in my life...so that crappy R definitely had a purpose...

 

 

Yes, I totally agree, I learned much also...in my case, it was never meant to be. His lifestyle is so much different than mine. I am unable to stomach some of his ways, and vice versa. I was able to show him a new way to live, he enlightened my life also.

 

At one time I really thought there could be a future, although that went as fast as it came. I have one more thing to deal with and then my life should be in a position to deal with my health mental/physical. For years have had an overflowing plate...it caught up quick...

 

I am soooo glad to hear you are doing well!

[White Flower]

I don't want to generalize as everyone is an individual...but there is one commonality (in terms of an experience or event) that all ex-OW share - they have hindsight. And there is one experience/event that all OW share-they are still in the A.

 

Those different positions will lead to different views on everything between OWs and ex-OW's. And because of the high emotion involved in an A situation, I do feel that lots of OW want to think that xOM's are only passing on bad news after the A, because they are bitter, or didn't get what they want, and that they 'chose' the wrong MM, and that what they have is different - that way they don't need to listen to the warnings that some really well meaning xOW's are trying to pass on.

 

Sure, it can be true sometimes that an xOW is bitter!-and mean spirited because she didnt get what she wanted (etc). But for SO many xOW's, the majority I'd say - it is so frustrating and excrutiating to see so many nightmare stories on the board of people that are being gaslighted, lied to, demeaning themselves without realizing it, giving up their happiness for some weak, pathetic joe schmoe that is lying to the W, the family and the OW - and the xOW wants to point it out so at least they can warn someone else off. To be fair, people on this board warned me off some idiot I was dating (with a girlifreind) years ago and I genuinely lost some naivete and moved on from the situation pronto. Realizing they were right about this guy meant I looked back on him as a lying idiot (which he was) - not out of bitterness - simply because I now had the full story. The advice here can be really good even if you don't like it - it might not be nice to hear but it can come from a good place.

 

But of course people need to experience things for themselves - I can guarantee some of the most strong voices for As right now will be here years later, and they'll be xOWs, saying they caouldn't believe what the xMM did in the end, that they never know him and didnt realize he would lie, etc, warning other people off for the same reasons.

This was a very insightful and thoughtful post. I would only like to add that SOME fOW tend to judge while offering that advice-backed-with-experience. I will be the first to jump on a thread and warn a new and innocent OW of the lies I see flying right over her head but I try not to judge her on the A alone. I think offering advice is one thing but adding judgment to the advice is another. I think that is the essence of the 'reformed' OW in this thread.

[White Flower]

My H is very happy to be no longer in an A. And he certainly knows what a real connection is!

 

I don't think that that was what WF was saying, or meaning. I read her post as asking, since you distanced yourself from the notion of "real connection" in your post, what the motivation for deciding (one way or the other) was. If one doesn't decide on the basis of a "real connection", on what basis can one make a decision of such magnitude? (A question you subsequently answered in this post.)

 

That was how I read it - apologies WF if I'm putting words in your mouth here.

No apologies neccessary. You and Jennie-jennie interpreted my right.

[White Flower]

My H is very happy to be no longer in an A. And he certainly knows what a real connection is!

 

I don't think that that was what WF was saying, or meaning. I read her post as asking, since you distanced yourself from the notion of "real connection" in your post, what the motivation for deciding (one way or the other) was. If one doesn't decide on the basis of a "real connection", on what basis can one make a decision of such magnitude? (A question you subsequently answered in this post.)

 

That was how I read it - apologies WF if I'm putting words in your mouth here.

 

No, I believe WF was claiming that since you knew "the true depths of love" in your affair, there must have been a real connection there, and thus there might be other reasons for you choosing your husband, as for example morals.

 

Correct me if I am interpreting you wrong, WF.

Again, good interpretation.

[White Flower]

Haven't you just proved my point! That some will consider someone who is happy to no longer be in an affair as someone who does not know a real connection is.

 

That depends. Some of us found a true connection in the A.

And I chose my husband for love, passion, initimacy, friendship - I would never have insulted him by choosing him because it was the moral thing to do.

I am very happy for you and your H.

[NoIDidn't]

I was a "happy" OW, and I'm now a "happy" MW. What I don't like about reformed OWs is the way that they assume that their view is the only valid one, and thus that:

 

* ALL As suck

* ALL OWs are damaged, low self-esteem broken humans deep in denial

* ALL MMs are "cake-eating" slimebags

* ALL MMs are happiest in the A, with two women on call

* ALL OWs really hate being the OW, but pretend otherwise

* ALL OWs will ultimately come round to their (ie, the "right") view, and will finally see the light, and come to realise how misguided they were

* ALL As end horribly - whichever way they end

* NC and ultimate dumping of the MM is the only way to redemption

* recanting the A and turning one's back on it is the only valid outcome of an A

* joining the ranks of the Righteous is the only way to happiness...

 

...despite all the evidence provided by lived examples here, to the contrary.

 

I dislike how ROWs try to render me invisible, trying to paint me out and pretend that I don't exist, because I don't fit their convenient world view, because I'm an unrepentant fOW who had no bad experiences in any of my As, who advocates As as equally valid to Ms or Rs with SGs as valid R choices to women, who recognises that women can choose an A from a position of strength and not only from a position of weakness, and - worst of all - whose MM left his M and Md the OW. I refuse to vanish because my outcome doesn't suit their fantasy world, and I refuse to accept the labels they try to pin on me to excuse me into their world view. I recognise the limitations of their monocular vision as being THEIR limitations, and not MY failure to conform to their expectations.

 

Like black people who refuse to be labeled "non-white" and defined / othered by white people, or gay people who refuse to be labelled, defined and othered by straights, I refuse to be defined and othered by people whose limitations or interests preclude them from acknowledging, recognising or accepting my reality. For me, it's a political choice and not just a semantic one. They may not like my life, but I have as much right to live it as they do theirs.

 

Interesting rant, OWoman.

 

I have always felt that the term is intended to be pejorative. And the quoted rant above only proves that point. I disagree with the above rant for many reasons (for one, it would make the majority of society reformed - even those that have never indulged in affairs). I see no reason why all former 'whatevers', can't just be "former". Thus, why I see it as a hierarchical matter.

 

Regarding the last paragraph though, massive fail. Being an OW is a political choice? Isn't that a bit extreme of a stance, if I am reading that correctly? Being Black, or gay aren't political choices, so you just lost me with that, completely. People don't get to choose their race or their orientation, but they do get to choose if they enter affairs or not.

[moaningmyrtle]

BB, if an OW is in pain, clearly unhappy in her A then there is nothing wrong with suggesting she walk (or run!) away from it. That is being sensitive to her needs, and giving her the best support you can.

 

The issue is with those ROWs who feel that ANY OW, whether happy or not, HAS TO dump her MM and institute immediate NC - whether or not that's what she wants - and any reluctance / failure / inability to do so makes her a whore or a slut or some other insult they choose to apply. Rather than coming from a place of empathy, it comes from a place of judgment - "I used to be a piece of rubbish like you, but I hauled myself up by my bootstraps to a better place, so so must you, or rot in the fires of damnation eternally!" That's very different to those fOWs who say, "I was there too. It sucks, but it does get better. Here's what helped me". I find the latter approach far more helpful, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

 

Some of this is what is called "setting up a straw man". For those that don't know it's reciting an argument and then tearing it down. The thing is that the argument that's recited is usually an extreme one that people rarely make.

 

I usually only see fOW suggesting NC to those OW obviously in pain from an A or those who are asking for advice. This is a legitimate response in the circumstances.

 

I cannot say it never happens but I'd be interested to see the posts where fOW have advised NC and dumping the MM to OW who are clearly content to be in the A.

 

I disagree with the poster who suggested that OWoman is rigid and delusional - rigid maybe, but delusional - no. I think she knows exactly what she is doing

[NoIDidn't]

OWoman also uses the term 'fOW'. I think you are confusing fOW with rOW.

 

 

You miss my point. I didn't confuse a thing. I said what I meant. There is no need to differentiate between former OWs by calling some former and others reformed.

 

Reformed in this forum is meant as an insult. A reformed WS is framed as afraid of taking chances for "love". The only insult reserved here for the betrayed, is just that - betrayed. As if that sums up a persons entire existence.

 

And you want to lecture me about being defined by what was chosen or not. Oh, the irony. SMH.

[NoIDidn't]

She may as well be a NASA scientist driving cross country in a diaper. Wouldn't change a thing. I fail to see how her background somehow renders her argument valid.

 

Can't edit this post, but meant "more valid than mine".

[jennie-jennie]

It was a rant' date=' complete with yelling because someone dares think she is "invisible". That someone dares attempt to invalidate her lifestyle.[/quote']

 

Oh I recognized the part of being made invisible. How many times have I not heard that I am different. Or that Fallen Angel's situation is an exception because the wife knows of her. By singling out the more content OW it minimizes their apparently more successful way of dealing with being the other woman.

 

Great post, OW, I agree with it being a political stance. I too declare my right to choose which kind of a relationship I want, be it marriage, relationship with a single person or an affair.

[jennie-jennie]

You miss my point. I didn't confuse a thing. I said what I meant. There is no need to differentiate between former OWs by calling some former and others reformed.

 

Reformed in this forum is meant as an insult. A reformed WS is framed as afraid of taking chances for "love". The only insult reserved here for the betrayed, is just that - betrayed. As if that sums up a persons entire existence.

 

And you want to lecture me about being defined by what was chosen or not. Oh, the irony. SMH.

 

As I stated above it was of much help to me when I came to LS and an older member explained to me that there were reformed OW. It explained their behavior and the stance they were taking. Without this knowledge they were very easy to mistake for betrayed spouses.

 

We as humans use words and terms to define our reality. It helps us in understanding the world around us. "Reformed" is a word in our language which is used to describe a certain phenomena.

 

Onelook Dictionary:

reformed: "▸ adjective: caused to abandon an evil manner of living and follow a good one ('A reformed drunkard')"

pejorative: "▸ adjective: expressing disapproval"

 

NID, you are welcome to suggest a more appropriate word for the phenomena if you can think of one. The need to describe it is there, I can attest to that. And so can likely many of the other OW who come new to the board and confuse reformed OW for BSs. It happens all the time.

 

If you find the use of the term reformed OW pejorative, I believe that must be because the majority of those who at present use the term do not agree with the stance these reformed OW are taking. That does not take away the need for an expression to describe this sub-group of OW.

 

What we need is perhaps for this sub-group to proudly present themselves as "reformed OW" (or whichever word of their choosing) just as I proudly present myself as "an unapologetic OW".

Edited March 10, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[OWoman]

I have always felt that the term is intended to be pejorative. And the quoted rant above only proves that point. I disagree with the above rant for many reasons (for one' date=' it would make the majority of society reformed - even those that have never indulged in affairs). I see no reason why all former 'whatevers', can't just be "former".[/quote']

 

They are all "former" - but some choose to behave in a particular way that warrants a separate, sub-categorisation. You may consider it "pejorative" - I consider it descriptive of a clear, blatant phenomenon. To me, failure to distinguish the difference would paint a picture of sameness that in no way comes close to describing the situation.

 

Regarding the last paragraph though' date=' massive fail. Being an OW is a political choice? Isn't that a bit extreme of a stance, [b']if I am reading that correctly?[/b] Being Black, or gay aren't political choices, so you just lost me with that, completely. People don't get to choose their race or their orientation, but they do get to choose if they enter affairs or not.

 

You're not.

 

I don't see any choice of lifestyle barring physical harm nor its political bearings an extreme stance whatsoever. She wasn't comparing being born black as if someone can be born the OW; she was comparing how one is viewed and defined under any circumstance whether chosen or not.

 

...but WF was.

 

It hasn't to do with "the condition" - it has to do with how a group of people without "the condition" choose to represent YOU and YOUR EXPERIENCE.

[OWoman]

Some of this is what is called "setting up a straw man". For those that don't know it's reciting an argument and then tearing it down. The thing is that the argument that's recited is usually an extreme one that people rarely make.

 

OTC - it's de rigeur here among ROW. I won't cite individual posters names, as that's against the TOS, but you could search on those posters names and you'd see that pretty much EVERY SINGLE post from those posters fits my description. It's the only tool in their toolbox.

 

As I said, it's fine when it's appropriate. But when your only tool is a hammer, then the world starts to look like a nail - and for those posters, it clearly does.

 

It's not the rule among fOW - but it is among ROW, and possibly what defines ROW as a subset.

[OWoman]

Interesting rant' date=' OWoman.[/quote']

 

Please explain why this is a "rant, complete with yelling"? (beyond that it disagrees with your POV)

[jennie-jennie]

Some of this is what is called "setting up a straw man". For those that don't know it's reciting an argument and then tearing it down. The thing is that the argument that's recited is usually an extreme one that people rarely make.

 

I usually only see fOW suggesting NC to those OW obviously in pain from an A or those who are asking for advice. This is a legitimate response in the circumstances.

 

I cannot say it never happens but I'd be interested to see the posts where fOW have advised NC and dumping the MM to OW who are clearly content to be in the A.

 

I disagree with the poster who suggested that OWoman is rigid and delusional - rigid maybe, but delusional - no. I think she knows exactly what she is doing

 

Myrtle, when you seek out a forum for OW you are in need of support and you are most likely in some kind of pain. Being the OW is not easy in our society. This is not the same as wanting to end the relationship you are in. What you might be seeking, and what I know I was seeking, is support to better be able to handle being the OW.

 

When you are then met by a more or less unanimous response of reformed OW and BS who claim the only way to change your situation for the better is to end the relationship by NC, you get overwhelmed. If everyone believes that to be true, then maybe it is the truth?

 

You decide to try NC, but you fail. Now what is left - going back to being the OW without support.

 

We claim it is only an internet board. These are not people you meet IRL. But the impact of such a unanimous opinion should not be understated. It has gotten me off balance more than once. It is sometimes hard to find what your own belief is when the majority is united.

 

I can tell you as an example that after NC I was posting on another OW forum. I was already pretty unstable because of the NC. Their interpretation of my situation post NC got me completely unbalanced and my MM had to support me in regaining my mental stability. Kind of funny, is it not, when the MM has to save the OW from the impact of the OW support forum? :sick:

 

So whereas I was not to be counted among the OW who were "clearly content to be in the A" when I started posting on LS, and I am not even sure I can be counted in that category today, I have found a mindset where I am comfortable with where I have chosen to be, where I can get the most out of the relationship of my choosing, where I can be as happy as it is possible for me to be. That is what I was looking for when I came to LS, not help to end the relationship, help to be in it.

 

So that is what I try to supply to new OW who come to LS: a choice, and a way to survive and even thrive as the OW if you decide that is your choice.

[jennie-jennie]

They are all "former" - but some choose to behave in a particular way that warrants a separate, sub-categorisation. You may consider it "pejorative" - I consider it descriptive of a clear, blatant phenomenon. To me, failure to distinguish the difference would paint a picture of sameness that in no way comes close to describing the situation.

 

I am wondering what the motivation for the reluctance to define subgroups of OW is. Is there an advantage of some kind for the reformed women (and betrayed spouses) in painting an incorrect picture of sameness?

[Fallen Angel]

But this so called "love and beauty" is often a false reality created by the MM/MW to keep their OW/OM dangling on puppet strings. Once true reality sets in, of course people will be angry at finding they were played like a fiddle. And why would they not want to keep others from falling victim to the same trap? Unless, of course, they just don't care.

 

Perhaps in some cases people are being "played like a fiddle" but that is certainly not true in all cases, and I would venture to say not even in most cases. I would be willing to bet that most times when someone involved in an affair relationship says the words "I love you" they really mean it. Just because it doesn't work out, doesn't mean the love was a "false reality". It is just easier for those who have lost that relationship (the Other, the Married Person who decides not to leave their marriage, or even the Betrayed Spouse once the marriage dissolves) to say that the love was not real. It makes it less painful. It is a way of minimizing the loss.

 

How much easier is it to feel that a relationship failed with someone who didn't really love you and who you never really loved, than to deal with the fact that you lost a realtionship in which the love was real? I know for me, convincing myself and others that the love was never real in the first place would be much less damaging to my ego. (I use ego here not as a way of saying "pride", but ego as in the way we internally define ourselves.)

 

When my daughter passed away I had family members comment to me that "at least I didn't have her long (she passed when she was two days old) so i didn't have a chance to really love her". I used to be very angry about comments like that thinking they were minimizing my love for her, until very recently a good friend explained to me that it was a way for them to be able to better cope with her loss, by minimizing their own love for her. If they didn't really love her afterall, then her loss is not so devestating. Do you see what I mean?

[OWoman]

Perhaps in some cases people are being "played like a fiddle" but that is certainly not true in all cases, and I would venture to say not even in most cases. I would be willing to bet that most times when someone involved in an affair relationship says the words "I love you" they really mean it. Just because it doesn't work out, doesn't mean the love was a "false reality". It is just easier for those who have lost that relationship (the Other, the Married Person who decides not to leave their marriage, or even the Betrayed Spouse once the marriage dissolves) to say that the love was not real. It makes it less painful. It is a way of minimizing the loss.

 

Owl always spoke of the way the WS "rewrites marital history" during the A, projecting back and making it seem far worse than they actually felt when they lived through it originally. I suspect that the same thing happens after the A which ends at Dday - the APs "rewrite the A history" and paint their role and investment down to a minimum, so that the loss is rendered less significant.

 

But I also wanted to pick up the issue of being "played like a fiddle" - in many cases, that's something one has to find out for oneself. Being told that by someone else - even being shown evidence - seldom convinces the person who's been taken in. It just becomes a chorus of approbation that they tune out, feeling misunderstood by a hostile world, their mind set ever more firmly on the way they see things. That OW who was being screwed by her therapist was a case in point - every single one at LS told her that what he was doing was unethical, that it was abusive, that he was using her - but she refused to / could not see it, until she found out for herself. The more of us who told her, the louder we shouted, the more urgently we tried to convince her to take action - the more she tuned us out. It's not a productive strategy - and it makes it really hard for someone to come back after a situation like that, and admit that everyone else was right and you were wrong. While it might be "correct", it's not right.

[Fallen Angel]

Some of this is what is called "setting up a straw man". For those that don't know it's reciting an argument and then tearing it down. The thing is that the argument that's recited is usually an extreme one that people rarely make.

 

I usually only see fOW suggesting NC to those OW obviously in pain from an A or those who are asking for advice. This is a legitimate response in the circumstances.

 

I cannot say it never happens but I'd be interested to see the posts where fOW have advised NC and dumping the MM to OW who are clearly content to be in the A.

 

I disagree with the poster who suggested that OWoman is rigid and delusional - rigid maybe, but delusional - no. I think she knows exactly what she is doing

 

There are many new posters who come to this board who do not stay long because even if they are happy in their relationship as it is, (happy is a relative term, as some are here to discuss a problem or issue, but they are content in their relationship otherwise) they are pounced on and NC is pushed at them, sometimes with the "eternal damnation" thrown in as a consequence to not following the NC advice immediately.

 

Someone having a snag in a relationship does not automatically mean that it is a damaging relationship for them, but any little problem between married person and other is blown up into "abusive" and "soul crushing", even though two single people dealing with the same issue would be treated very differently.

 

I have given more advice to leave the relationships spoken about on this board than advice to stay, but not simply because one or more of the parties involved were married, but based on the facts of that particular situation. My point being that relationship advice should be based on what is best for that person at that moment, and not based on my own moral compass. Too bad more people don't see it that way, to care more for the poster and what is right for them, than to preach their way as the only right way. If they did, it would lead to much more resolution and constructive discussion.

[ADF]

I hear ya, OP. What cannot understand is why OW (and OM) cannot see their MM (Or MW) is a lying, selfish, deceitful, manipulative piece of crap BY DEFINITION. The only way to hide an affair--especially a long-term affair--is to be really good at deception. And the only way to become really good at deception is to 1) have no conscience, and 2) to practice a lot. Frankly, I never respond to complaints from spurned OW or OM, because most of them deserve exactly what they got, and many probably should have gotten worse.