OWoman Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 The only way to hide an affair--especially a long-term affair--is to be really good at deception. Nope, it's not the ONLY way. Another way would be to live with a BS who doesn't care - who lives their own separate life in their own separate world, who blows off the WS who tries to initiate a conversation about the state of the M and how to recover it, who refuses to consider that anything could be better than it is (for them) as it is, and who could care less how the WS feels about things. Yet another way would be to live physically separately - long term, short term or permanently - from the BS. No hiding required. Just - no disclosure. Still another way would be to work conflicting hours with the BS - so that the two did not overlap in the house at any point. There are many many more. How many would you like?
ADF Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 Nope, it's not the ONLY way. Another way would be to live with a BS who doesn't care - who lives their own separate life in their own separate world, who blows off the WS who tries to initiate a conversation about the state of the M and how to recover it, who refuses to consider that anything could be better than it is (for them) as it is, and who could care less how the WS feels about things. Yet another way would be to live physically separately - long term, short term or permanently - from the BS. No hiding required. Just - no disclosure. Still another way would be to work conflicting hours with the BS - so that the two did not overlap in the house at any point. There are many many more. How many would you like? As many as you'd like to invent. Even a person with any or all of the cheater-friendly circumstances you described has to be able to omit critical information and lie, repeatedly, about what is going on in their life to their significant other, their kids (if any), and god knows who else. And they have to do it with a straight face, and with enough inner emotional detachment not to feel guilty and confess. And just so so you know, "no disclosure" is the same thing as lying. In fact, it takes more sophistication to selectively omit information in such a way that someone will make false assumptions than it is to tell outright falsehoods.
OWoman Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 As many as you'd like to invent. Even a person with any or all of the cheater-friendly circumstances you described has to be able to omit critical information and lie, repeatedly, about what is going on in their life to their significant other, their kids (if any), and god knows who else. And they have to do it with a straight face, and with enough inner emotional detachment not to feel guilty and confess. And just so so you know, "no disclosure" is the same thing as lying. In fact, it takes more sophistication to selectively omit information in such a way that someone will make false assumptions than it is to tell outright falsehoods. No "selective omission" required. When the norm is to walk straight post each other without exchanging any words at all, then omission is pretty comprehensive... if it can be termed "omission" since it is what the BS chooses, not what was chosen by the WS. (nor is there necessarily any lying to the kids. My H's kids were fully aware of the A, as were his family, friends, colleagues, and others. Only the BS was unaware - and chose not to believe it when told.) Sometimes the BS's ignorance is of their own choosing.
OWoman Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 most of them deserve exactly what they got, I deserved what I got too
ADF Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 I agree people often choose to live in ignorance. However, that does not change the fact cheaters must--always and everywhere--practice some degree of deception. There's just no way around it. A person in deep denial can still be decieved. And they often are.
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 Perhaps in some cases people are being "played like a fiddle" but that is certainly not true in all cases, and I would venture to say not even in most cases. I would be willing to bet that most times when someone involved in an affair relationship says the words "I love you" they really mean it. Just because it doesn't work out, doesn't mean the love was a "false reality". It is just easier for those who have lost that relationship (the Other, the Married Person who decides not to leave their marriage, or even the Betrayed Spouse once the marriage dissolves) to say that the love was not real. It makes it less painful. It is a way of minimizing the loss. How much easier is it to feel that a relationship failed with someone who didn't really love you and who you never really loved, than to deal with the fact that you lost a realtionship in which the love was real? I know for me, convincing myself and others that the love was never real in the first place would be much less damaging to my ego. (I use ego here not as a way of saying "pride", but ego as in the way we internally define ourselves.) When my daughter passed away I had family members comment to me that "at least I didn't have her long (she passed when she was two days old) so i didn't have a chance to really love her". I used to be very angry about comments like that thinking they were minimizing my love for her, until very recently a good friend explained to me that it was a way for them to be able to better cope with her loss, by minimizing their own love for her. If they didn't really love her afterall, then her loss is not so devestating. Do you see what I mean? It's impossible to compare the love for your child, even pre-birth, to the love for a MM/MW who is PRETENDING to love you. Maybe that's not the right word. They SAY they love you. They may even THINK they love you. Not "you" in the sense of you personally, but you in the sense of OW/OM who are led on by what they perceive to be a mutual true love. I believe that when MOST MM/MW use the word "love" when speaking of or to their OW/OM they actually love the feeling they get FROM their AP's attention more than the AP themselves. If there is actually love there, why would you torture someone by dangling them on a string for years, or cruelly toss them to the side with hurtful words when the BS finds out about the A? If you only get the little snatches of time together instead of the entire daily grind of life and being able to weather that together, the good and the bad of EVERYTHING about dealing with life issues, how do you know it would work; if the love is strong enough? When there is a strong love between a couple, the difficult tests in life that may tear others apart actually show how strong that love is. That's my belief, and it will never change.
OWoman Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 If you only get the little snatches of time together instead of the entire daily grind of life and being able to weather that together, the good and the bad of EVERYTHING about dealing with life issues, how do you know it would work; if the love is strong enough? When there is a strong love between a couple, the difficult tests in life that may tear others apart actually show how strong that love is. That's my belief, and it will never change. How many non-A couples have all that, pre-M? Most couples I've seen dating also only get "little snatches of time together instead of the entire daily grind of life" - yet somehow on that basis they decide that it's love, and that they want to be together.
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 How many non-A couples have all that, pre-M? Most couples I've seen dating also only get "little snatches of time together instead of the entire daily grind of life" - yet somehow on that basis they decide that it's love, and that they want to be together. Truth is A-couples usually have so many problems to deal with connected to their relationship being an affair, so if their relationship manages to survive that it has been pretty well tested in my opinion.
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 How many non-A couples have all that, pre-M? Most couples I've seen dating also only get "little snatches of time together instead of the entire daily grind of life" - yet somehow on that basis they decide that it's love, and that they want to be together. I'm not talking about dating. That's pre-relationship stuff, and of course you don't know all there is to know. No - I'm talking about these A's that are years old v. a relationship that is as long. If you're in a relationship for years, MOST people have moved to the "living together" stage where bills are shared or split, if children are involved, the sharing of those stresses, taking out of garbage, doing of dishes, vacuuming, laundry, work schedules interfering with daily life, waking up in the same bed together every day, hair in the sink, toothpaste left opened, the toilet seat left up, etc. etc. etc.
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 Truth is A-couples usually have so many problems to deal with connected to their relationship being an affair, so if their relationship manages to survive that it has been pretty well tested in my opinion. But THOSE types of problems probably only add to all the "danger and mystique" that goes along with that kind of situation. It's food for the fantasy of it all. "Us against the big, bad marriage." THOSE kind of problems would bring A partners together, IMO. UNTIL D day.
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 But THOSE types of problems probably only add to all the "danger and mystique" that goes along with that kind of situation. It's food for the fantasy of it all. "Us against the big, bad marriage." THOSE kind of problems would bring A partners together, IMO. UNTIL D day. And your experience of being in an extramarital relationship is...? No, those problems certainly do not add to the "danger and mystique". What danger and mystique by the way? I have not noticed any. This relationship is like any other relationship I have had. The only difference is the man. He is more open to working on our relationship issues than my other men have been.
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 And your experience of being in an extramarital relationship is...? Funny how when someone brings up a valid point that is difficult to refute, often the same old line of "you aren't in an A so how could you know?" comes up. One doesn't have to be involved in an A to know it's NOWHERE the same as a full time relationship.
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 I wholeheartedly agree with this, Donna. At the end, my MM said, "I love you. I love you as much as I can.". In the end, it was the W he had built a life with, and children with, had LIFE experiences with. Sure, I think he loved me. As much as he could given that he was committed to someone else, and life experiences simply couldn't be had in the little time we had together. That's one of the downfalls of an affair, no? For example, when I needed MM to be with me during a health crisis, a true life experience, he wasn't able to be there because of his other commitments. I guess it differs from MM to MM. My MM supported me throughout 72 weeks of chemolike therapy. He supports me with everything from my recently broken toilet to the choice of my daughters' birth control pills.
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 I wholeheartedly agree with this, Donna. At the end, my MM said, "I love you. I love you as much as I can.". In the end, it was the W he had built a life with, and children with, had LIFE experiences with. Sure, I think he loved me. As much as he could given that he was committed to someone else, and life experiences simply couldn't be had in the little time we had together. That's one of the downfalls of an affair, no? For example, when I needed MM to be with me during a health crisis, a true life experience, he wasn't able to be there because of his other commitments. That's a sad position to be in. I'm sorry you had to go through that. We deserve more, don't we? At least if we aren't in a relationship at all, there are no hopes; no expectations. I'd rather not be with anyone than to be with someone and be disappointed. I hope things are better for you...
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 But THOSE types of problems probably only add to all the "danger and mystique" that goes along with that kind of situation. It's food for the fantasy of it all. "Us against the big, bad marriage." THOSE kind of problems would bring A partners together, IMO. UNTIL D day. And your experience of being in an extramarital relationship is...? Funny how when someone brings up a valid point that is difficult to refute, often the same old line of "you aren't in an A so how could you know?" comes up. One doesn't have to be involved in an A to know it's NOWHERE the same as a full time relationship. I was not referring to an affair in comparison to a full time relationship, I was referring to your statements about an affair in the first post above. Nice try.
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 I was not referring to an affair in comparison to a full time relationship, I was referring to your statements about an affair in the first post above. Nice try. I don't need to be involved in an A to get a very crystal clear picture, most of it from this forum. In fact, I recall a recent post of yours wherein you described how your MM was having sex with you while, at the same time, talking to his crying W on the phone ON THEIR ANNIVERSARY. You seemed to take a perverse pleasure in it, complete with smilies and the like. The A obviously fuels that scenario wherein you feel somehow "better" than the W. There's your affair "bread and butter." Your little moments of zing that keep the A going.
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 I don't need to be involved in an A to get a very crystal clear picture, most of it from this forum. In fact, I recall a recent post of yours wherein you described how your MM was having sex with you while, at the same time, talking to his crying W on the phone ON THEIR ANNIVERSARY. You seemed to take a perverse pleasure in it, complete with smilies and the like. The A obviously fuels that scenario wherein you feel somehow "better" than the W. There's your affair "bread and butter." Your little moments of zing that keep the A going. LOL Your remake of my post is hilarious. That is not how it went down. And the only reason I even posted the episode was because a BS was bragging about a similar happening. As a participant of a long term affair I can even see that those in shorter affairs do not understand the dynamics of the long term ones. How could then you who have never even been in an extramarital relationship understand?
White Flower Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 You miss my point. I didn't confuse a thing. I said what I meant. There is no need to differentiate between former OWs by calling some former and others reformed. Reformed in this forum is meant as an insult. A reformed WS is framed as afraid of taking chances for "love". The only insult reserved here for the betrayed, is just that - betrayed. As if that sums up a persons entire existence. And you want to lecture me about being defined by what was chosen or not. Oh, the irony. SMH. I see that my post has been deleted; how interresting is that? I did not miss your point, I saw it as flawed. How can you claim there is no differentiation between former OWs and reformed OWs? It simply cannot be argued that all former OWs are reformed. Enough said. And there are some reformed OWs who have very valid points and should not be insulted for it. Who are you to claim that the term, 'reformed', is meant to be an insult in this forum. It does happen but it is not the rule. You seem to have a self-imposed authority on the labels here and how those who hold those *assigned* labels should be viewed. Everything you say here can happen but is not the rule. You don't seem to believe that anyone who ends up in an A could possibly be intelligent. If that's the way you need to see things then I wish you luck with that. I don't lecture, I just make points. I stand by what I said even if someone moves heaven and earth to have it pulled off the thread.
White Flower Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 I hear ya, OP. What cannot understand is why OW (and OM) cannot see their MM (Or MW) is a lying, selfish, deceitful, manipulative piece of crap BY DEFINITION. The only way to hide an affair--especially a long-term affair--is to be really good at deception. And the only way to become really good at deception is to 1) have no conscience, and 2) to practice a lot. Frankly, I never respond to complaints from spurned OW or OM, because most of them deserve exactly what they got, and many probably should have gotten worse. And how do any of your posts on this thread contribute to the discussion of the reformed OW?
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 How could then you who have never even been in an extramarital relationship understand? For the same reason someone who watches a movie (reads these stories on LS) can feel empathy and emotion for the characters involved. One doesn't have to live it to understand. Simple really. Just as it was easy for us here on this forum when we read that post I described to feel queasy.
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) For the same reason someone who watches a movie (reads these stories on LS) can feel empathy and emotion for the characters involved. One doesn't have to live it to understand. Simple really. Just as it was easy for us here on this forum when we read that post I described to feel queasy. And you did not feel queasy when reading the original post of that thread? :sick: My post was meant to make the BS queasy just as I believe the original post was meant to make the OW/OM queasy. I don't usually give back using the same rudeness, but that original post was just too much. And no, reading a story or watching a movie does not do it, which is pretty obvious when reading your posts about affairs. Could we please get back on the subject of reformed women now? White Flower, I wonder what it was in your post that merited deleting? I read it and saw nothing. Edited March 10, 2010 by jennie-jennie
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 And you did not feel queasy when reading the original post in that thread? No, but I think some people's conscience may have pained them a little. I didn't think that thread was so awful, and it was posted in the infidelity section where the BS (not that I'm one) are told they should stay. Interestingly, the thread wasn't removed, but your post was. Hmmmm..... And no, reading a story or watching a movie does not do it, which is pretty obvious when reading your posts about affairs. Oh, it does it just fine. Just reading post after post after post tells the story (stories) quite clearly.
2sure Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 I cannot stand reformed people. Addicts, Born Again Christians, etc. I dont like the rhetoric basically because all of them have hit rock bottom usually in the form of addiction or jail prior to becoming reformed. Then, they insist on telling those they consider not reformed how to become like them. Hey, how about I just dont hit rock bottom like you? How about I clearly have not made your mistakes so ummm...I'm really not interested in your advice? I dont need to be born again to not screw up my life like you did. (Just an example, and may or may not reflect my religious beliefs) Yeah I was like that. But NOW I am: Reformed OW. And people here who have not been OW or BS ...are just like me when I tell converts that I dont need them to guide me with a moral compass to know I shouldnt be a drug addict or a criminal. I know these things without having done them. As Reformed OW, I tell you all: That Way Lies Evil
Author jennie-jennie Posted March 10, 2010 Author Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) No, but I think some people's conscience may have pained them a little. I didn't think that thread was so awful, and it was posted in the infidelity section where the BS (not that I'm one) are told they should stay. Interestingly, the thread wasn't removed, but your post was. Hmmmm..... Oh, it does it just fine. Just reading post after post after post tells the story (stories) quite clearly. Are you kidding me, do you not even have experience of that side of the triangle? :lmao: So, if you watch a movie where a loved one dies, do you then know how that feels? Yeah, I didn't bother reporting the original post since I replied to it, but somebody reported me. A lot of BSs around you know. So not being removed might just as well mean not being reported. Edited March 10, 2010 by jennie-jennie
donnamaybe Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 Are you kidding me, do you not even have experience of that side of the triangle? :lmao:. And? Your point is...? So because I haven't put my toe in the ocean, that means I won't know that it will get wet? Because I've never had banana flavored ice cream, I can't imagine what it would taste like? Because I've never had a man cheat on me, I don't know it would hurt and I would feel betrayed? Because I haven't f'd another woman's H I don't know I would feel guilty afterward? Because I haven't gotten involved with a liar who led me down a path until I thought I loved him only to find he was married I wouldn't know what it would feel like to be a teensy little piece of his world, knowing if I pushed the issue I would be history? It's easy enough to imagine. Especially with all the factual evidence here for the taking.
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