Samson Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 This wonderful day included marriage counseling. What did I want out of it? A better marriage. What did wife want? To read almost two dozen pages of marriage despite having had our last child 16 months ago. Since I had heard these many grievances before (usually after she'd discussed with close family or friends) I wasn't shocked to hear them again, yet another time, and most for the third or fourth time. For some reason, I'd imagined we had put them behind us after discussing them twice, or perhaps three, or even four times: but NO, it seems forgiveness is not only relative, it is more conveniently sought again and again, almost all after YEARS of time has passed. My philosophy has been that if you have an issue with someone, then resolve it and move on. Do not pretend to have resolved it, become more and more bitter and resentful, and begin scrutinizing every movement, every deed, every action, and every word for the opportunity to add to the growing list of indiscretions. Wonder why I have become withdrawn and uncommunicative???? I've been told we can look forward to SIX MONTHS of weekly, joyous communing. I'm not sure I even want to go to bed tonight. What if I snore? Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I remember going through this hell as well. I hope you have better luck than I did. I feel for you and I hope things improve. Maybe once she gets past the anger she can work on the marriage with you. Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Sorry to hear it was hell Samson. Good on you for attempting to resolve the problems through counselling, that takes courage that many lack. Look at it this way if it's hell now then it has to get better! Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 usually after she'd discussed with close family or friends i couldn't take that - it seems so disloyal. at least she is turning to a professional who (hopefully) should be impartial. what are you saying during these sessions? Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Sorry it's been a rough start. Good on you for trying. Stick with it and hopefully it will improve for you. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Samson Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 Jenny, I haven't said a whole lot, and this plus the fact that I've developed a certain emotional numbness over the years of listening to my indescretions being repeated, analyzed, and their root causes being traced to my parents, etc., etc... contribute to the near silence. I'm guilty of nearly everything I've been accused of (This doesn't include: Porn, Physical Abuse, or Adultery.....apologies to the "Moral Taliban" that have gathered for a stoning ) Had to add this in, Bark! But, hey, the next day I read a really funny article on pD1 of 010804 WSJ; "Can This Marriage Be Saved? Therapy Doesn't Always Provide the Answers. " ha ha. The writer, divorced, claimed "only a minority of marriages are saved by entering therapy because couples let problems fester too long." Most of the problem seems to be that by the time couples enter therapy, one or the other has mentally divorced themselves from the marriage ans is only placating their spouce. Well this isn't my case, I suppose. I really don't want to become divorced about half the time. The main reason I feel this way is that divorce would not only separate me from my wife, but also my children Link to post Share on other sites
AllyKat Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I do think sometimes couples do mentally divorce themselves and decide in their own minds they simple arent going to work on the problems because its not going to solve anything. It is good to know you are seeking couseling and trying to mend your marriage. I know sometimes we talk about things that have been bothering us only to think its not bothering us, when really it still is! My parents always told me that communication is a must. Unfortunately I havent been able to use their advice because I have yet to marry! lol I urge you to try to listen as well as you can and give it your all...so you can always say regardless of the outcome that you tried and did your best! Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 i suppose i'm responding personally, because counselling almost broke my parents up. therapists require different qualifications than actual professionals, and the one my parents saw basically let my mom go on ad nauseum. she had valid complaints, as did he, but this was absurdly one-sided and very poorly sourced. i've maintained a deep resentment for the 'profoundly unqualified but shingle-hanging' ever since. they couldn't afford someone more qualified at the time; and it's the only time in my parents' marriage that i remember that much hostility - thick enough to feel in the house, if you know what i mean. pleasingly, they rebanded together against the quack, and all was well again. anyway, this cheese stands alone in being skeptical about counselling unless it is from a peer-reviewed, accredited, published, degreed, and known professional. look it up - it's ridiculously easy to get the 'diploma' needed to provide therapy. you can even do it over the internet. blah. i am digressing. let us know how it goes. Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Samson My philosophy has been that if you have an issue with someone, then resolve it and move on.Some people like to hold grudges. I can’t help thinking that women do it more often than men. Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Some people like to hold grudges. I can’t help thinking that women do it more often than men Maybe you should treat it as all other bad habits which one can't help (e.g. smoking) and try to abstain for the good of your health? Maybe bitterness patches? No? Ok just an idea. Link to post Share on other sites
silk_sword Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 i believe seeking help shows that you want to make this work. however, it won't be the person you see who determines whether or not you and your wife stay with one another. in truth, that decision is solely between you and your wife. also, sometimes things from the past don't fade. sometimes time doesn't heal all things. some wounds leave scars and for no reason one day the scar reopens. although you don't wish for it to open (in this case interfere with onward and upward progression in your marriage), it happens. i know you are probably really fed up, but since you love her you need to be patient and supportive. but, she also needs to learn to be this way for you. you both probably have a lot to work on, but i think the first step is that you both sit down together (only yourselves) and determine if you want to make it work and why you do. i wish you all the luck in the world. be strong. everything will fall into place. Link to post Share on other sites
Vanetia Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Are the past events she's drudging up in any way related to more recent events? I know that sometimes in arguments with my husband I bring up old things but it's because I'm showing him he's got a pattern going that he needs to break if he doesn't want the argument to just come up again later. If the things are completely unrelated then she just has a problem letting go and only she can make herself forgive and forget. There's little to nothing you can do. And on a sidenote: jenny you're not the only one that feels that way. I went through counceling with my mother and it only caused more harm than good. Mainly because she was only looking for someone to say I was a hellspawn and she was a saint and found they were saying somewhat the opposite. But being willing to go at all shows you're open to change (usually ) so good on you. I hope things get resolved quickly. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Samson Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 The inspiration to return to conselling was my first LS post my wife read after I left the link in the "Favorites" file. This is completely unrelated to previous indescretions; i.e., lying about drinking and smoking tobacco at undisclosed locations at unplanned times, and becoming loudly upset and belligerant when "interrogated" about my whereabouts and activities. I'm not a big believer in the subconscious, but I'm inclined to believe that i wanted her to find it. Things seem to be going well, for some reason she's approached me for lovemaking twice since our saturday session. Link to post Share on other sites
jester Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Samson, you have cojones. Keep us apprised of how the therapist and therapy goes. I believe the mere fact that both you and your wife are doing this speaks volumes. In my more cynical moments, I suspect those couples who go willingly to marriage counseling don't need it, and those couples where one spouse won't go, won't benefit from it. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Samson Things seem to be going well, for some reason she's approached me for lovemaking twice since our saturday session. ..Well that's gotta be a good thing Let us know how things progress for you. It may be a case of two steps forward, one step back for a while. My partner and I went to counselling a while back and it helped us iron out a few issues, so I'm probably not as cynical as others. Link to post Share on other sites
cdn Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Some people like to hold grudges. I can’t help thinking that women do it more often than men. Oh, I dunno about that. In my house, it is my husband who is far more likely to bring up something that happened years ago that I thought had been hashed to death and settled. It's frustrating because it seems you never move on but just keep adding to the heap! Link to post Share on other sites
jester Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I don't think holding grudges is gender based. I suspect individual differences, not gender, determine one's grudge holding propensity. Why do we hold grudges? What's the pay-off? Is a grudge merely righteous hostility? Grudges are fascinating. Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 i'd much rather have revenge than a grudge. revenge can be gorgeous: symmetrical, ironic, james bondian, full of cleavage; grudges just seem tight lipped and prissy, like martyrs' hair shirts. Link to post Share on other sites
jester Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Good point, jen. There's something almost Nietzschean about revenge, a grandeur. A grudge, in contrast, smacks of pettiness, sneakiness and the cultivation of martyrdom--resentment. Maybe,in a marital relationship, a grudge is more adaptive, less apocalyptic, than revenge. Maybe a grudge is simply a partially repressed urge to wreck revenge. Revenge, if fully exacted, however, might end many a marital relationship. A grudge, if nursed, heightens the holder's sense of victimhood and sense of importance. The marriage is maintained but so is the festering sense of grievance. In fact, if not decoupled, a strong grudge can rot a marriage from within. Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 jester Why do we hold grudges?Some people have a very weak ego, and they are willing to do almost anything to protect it. I guess these people aren’t willing to accept anything less than equal for payback, but for their own reasons, they aren’t willing to act on it. Maybe it is illegal. Maybe they know that they will get caught. Maybe they have too much to lose. jenny revenge can be gorgeousI disagree. Revenge can hurt your intended victim, but others can get hurt in the process. Sometimes, the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. For example, a man had an affair. After finding out, his wife kills him by running over him twice with his own car. Grudges are boring when compared to revenge. How many songs and movies are based on revenge? Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 o! i agree! hence the modal of can be! most people don't arrange revenge very well at all - there's no planning, no art, no discipline, no perspective and technique. just too much jerry springer. and you're right, the wrong people can get hurt. grudges, alternately, usually don't hurt anyone but the grudge-keeper. there is an amazing paper floating around somewhere on the net called 'the aesthetics of revenge' - it totally changed my opinion of it as a theme. i could not pull revenge myself. my attention span is too short and i'm too distracted by books; ditto with grudges. but i do think revenge has a less petty purpose and can be an art form, when done selectively and well. wow, samson. sorry so off topic. we'll start a new thread if we get any more excited. Link to post Share on other sites
jester Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Some people have a very weak ego, and they are willing to do almost anything to protect it. I believe your right, BlockHead. Could a grudge simply be a weak ego's defense mechanism? I wonder if there are ego integration/self-esteem studies showing a positive correlation between the tendency to hold grudges and low self-esteem or self-confidence. The notion does have an intuitive appeal. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Samson Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 revenge can be gorgeous: symmetrical, ironic, james bondian, full of cleavage; grudges just seem tight lipped and prissy, like martyrs' hair shirts Hey Jen, no apology necessary as long as I can use your quote terrific writing! Link to post Share on other sites
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