Just my introduction story of woe

[spriggig]

I didn't really introduce myself, I just started posting.

 

My story mirrors so many others here, so I'll keep it shortish.

 

As a background, I'll simply point you to the very useful book, recommended by Gunny: "How To Light Her Fire". Everything in there is what I DIDN'T do--that is, I didn't support or talk to my wife--at all. I really fcked up my side. That pretty much covers my failure in our 12 year marriage (March 14 is our anniversary, yea!). I've been 100% faithful, honest and respectful otherwise.

 

After ten years of neglect, my 38-year-old (to my 42 years) wife virtually left me but didn't bother to tell me (thanks honey!). She continued to live in my house and tell me she loved me but instead of confronting me with her very valid concerns about our marriage, she began to chase younger men online in the game Lord of the Rings Online. For two years.

 

Fast forward to February, last month. I discover that she has accepted money from one of her infatuations (her words in discovered writings: "I like, like, LIKE, LOVE HIM!, I've fallen!") and has agreed to fly to another state and stay with him for two weeks. He is 28 years old and has just moved back in WITH HIS PARENTS after a stint in the Marines. That's right, she, now 40, DID go ahead and stay with him at his parents house for two weeks. Leaving me and our 11-year-old son behind. The cynics will say they had sex, but I've talked to her and I don't think they did--oh she clearly WANTED to but, yeah. It doesn't really matter, anyway. I have no idea what the current status of their relationship is and I don't really care.

 

I broke LC four times (I began studying NC/LC two days after initial discovery on Jan. 7th) in the past two months. In the last conversation, I gave her an ultimatum--attempt reconciliation or get the hell out of my house. Like that was going to work! But, I couldn't stand the insane amount of stress anymore, I had to DO something.

 

She had just started working her first job in 12 years three days earlier, had no reliable vehicle and had no place to go but her brothers house. I couldn't do it. The morning after I "kicked her out" I took it all back and we agreed that she would take the spare room and pay half the bills as a roommate. I would pay the full mortgage to allow her to save money toward moving out.

 

The only other point of interest in this otherwise common tale of woe is that I discovered this week (every other week, some new revelation!) that she "forgot" to pay two mortgage bills in 2009. I think she intentionally missed one and honestly forgot the other. I didn't bother with a detailed accounting of the money, I don't really care where it went--maybe a dental bill.

 

So, yeah, marriage is over. Except, of course, I'm stupid and want to reconcile. Fat chance that's gonna happen, I know. The heart wants what the heart wants, tho.

 

My support "network" consists of a few friends at work who have been ridiculously supportive and understanding of my whiny BS, and this forum.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Gunny376]

First off I'm going to give you the the 'handle' of SG, (easier typing)

 

Second? You need to call who ever has your mortgage company and discuss these two missed payments. More than likely they "rolled' them back toward the tail end of the loan. If that is the case, (more likely than not) after 15 to 30 years of paying your loan? You could find yourself with a Hugh 'balloon payment' that you didn't realize you had.

 

That is to say that those two missed monthly payments from the front end of the loan are accruing interests from the front end of the loan, but have been moved to back of the loan?

 

So you could have diligently made 258 monthly payments only to find that you owe tens of thousands of dollars at the end of the loan? Which is declared DUN ~ "Due Upon Notice!"

 

If you cannot come up with it? They foreclose. Of course by then you will have had acquired so much equity that you could probally more than easily take out a second mortgage to pay off the first mortgage. But why accrue all of that interest over the course of the loan. Call your mortgage company and get those two missed payments caught up ASAP.

 

You did right in acting decisively in not playing the STBXW's BS game. You made a major game mistake in taking her back in. You didn't give her the gift of "missing you" nor did you give her the gift of suffering the consequences of her decisions and choices.

 

"Light Her Fire" is not all inclusive. Its a part of the answers to the question, and part of the solution toward understanding of the problems. Its a building block. A foundation toward understanding.

 

A building block and foundation that many us never had.

 

RECON does happen and is possible?

 

But not in the context of TWAWOKI ~ "The world as we once knew it"

 

It happens in the context of re-defining roles, experiences, contexts, preceptions, definitions, expections.

 

It comes along somewhere in your late twenties or thirties? That the four "P's" (Parents, Preachers, Professors, and Politicans? Are full of BS!) And that you've got to live your Life for yourself, on your own terms!

 

And not for someone else.

 

Food for thought?

 

"Life is what happens when you make other plans!"

[JLoves]

I hope you'll be forgetting tomorrow like I will be... I got married on March 14th too, will be 42 in a few days.. I'm still not sure how I'm going to feel knowing my stbx is off camping with her new bf.

 

I hope tomorrow will pass soon.

 

I gave her the ultimatum 4 months ago, and she left. Broke my heart.

 

You need to decide what you want. I know the pain of that stress.

 

If you attempt another reconciliation, do it so you know you tried your best to recover your marriage. I think you have done so much already.

 

Good luck.

[spriggig]

Thank you for responding.

 

...call who ever has your mortgage...

I found out because the phone started ringing off the hook. Sheesh! The wife agreed to give up saving for now and cover the other bills while my next three pay checks go entirely to the mortgage. We should be caught up in two months.

 

You made a major game mistake in taking her back in.

Yep. Took me all night to decide to do it.

 

The intractable problem in most of these cases is, of course, the reason we want them back is because we still love them. And, we just can't find it in ourselves to do what we need to do to get them back--it's too harsh for most of us to even contemplate.

 

In this case, we live very close to where I work, I drive the unreliable vehicle on commute. The reliable vehicle will be paid off next month and the plan was to buy a new car. If I had kicked her out I couldn't let her have the reliable car, so she would have been left with no good way to get to her new job. She would have ended up living with her unhealthy brother, separated from our son with no job. Maybe that would have been the kick she needs to come out of her fog. Yeah, see the paragraph above.

 

Oy!

[LisaUk]

Trouble is Sprig, they have no such conscience about doing it to us! My ex put me on the street (albiet with some financial settlement, but not enough to buy my own place of rent in London), no job and I was just recovering form agoraphobia, after 18 years together.

 

Your W made the decision to do what she has and I have to say it amazes me (still) just how vile some people can be to someone they supposedely once loved enough to marry and have a family with. She went off for two weeks to she her infatuation??????????????????? EXCUSE ME??????????????????? What on Earth makes her think she is so special that her behaviour is acceptable. Truely Sprig, if you kicked her out you would be doing her a favour in the long run. This women NEEDS to learn to grow up.

 

You have my deepest sympathy, you didn't deserve to be treated this way. Make a stand, make her live up to her choices and do her a favour in the process.

[spriggig]

Thank you LisaUK.

 

I'm considering trying to kick her out again after I get caught up on the mortgage to the point that I can handle the rest alone.

 

There has never been any malice between us. Which SEEMED like a good thing...

 

From the book I mentioned: "Show me a couple that doesn't fight and I'll show you a couple that doesn't have sex." How true that is.

[sotagoon]

 

From the book I mentioned: "Show me a couple that doesn't fight and I'll show you a couple that doesn't have sex." How true that is.

 

 

x2 on that one!

[2sunny]

Thank you for responding.

 

 

I found out because the phone started ringing off the hook. Sheesh! The wife agreed to give up saving for now and cover the other bills while my next three pay checks go entirely to the mortgage. We should be caught up in two months.

 

 

Yep. Took me all night to decide to do it.

 

The intractable problem in most of these cases is, of course, the reason we want them back is because we still love them. And, we just can't find it in ourselves to do what we need to do to get them back--it's too harsh for most of us to even contemplate.

 

In this case, we live very close to where I work, I drive the unreliable vehicle on commute. The reliable vehicle will be paid off next month and the plan was to buy a new car. If I had kicked her out I couldn't let her have the reliable car, so she would have been left with no good way to get to her new job. She would have ended up living with her unhealthy brother, separated from our son with no job. Maybe that would have been the kick she needs to come out of her fog. Yeah, see the paragraph above.

 

Oy!

 

all of these issues should no longer be your concern. SHE created it all when she decided to step out of the marriage. tell her to get out today. let her figure out how to fix the $hitty stuff SHE'S created... then she may start to do something about it all. because YOU have always fixed everything - she figures she'll continue to dump the crap on you to fix. leaving her with the mindset that she creates destruction = you fix it all for her.

 

if nothing changes - nothing changes.

 

she will only change when you stop rescuing her and begin to care less about the chaos that she creates on purpose. once she starts to handle some of the crappy stuff herself - she may stop creating more of it. get it?

[tnttim]

 

It's not acceptable, I agree, but what is 10 years of no love worth? A wife does not do that to someone they love, or feels mutual love. It was a cold hearted thing in his wife's part, but what do you expect from her, I mean really. Have you put yourself in her shoes and then measured the act? I am not justifying what she did, all I am saying is sometimes we do things that our out of our character, or something we soon regret. Does your W regret leaving her family for some strange? When you can answer yes, then you can move on to a possible recon.

 

Sorry but I am straight to the point on posts, I am a firm beleiver that time is a crucial factor, and the sooner you wake up, the better...........

[alphamale]

So, yeah, marriage is over.

i'm sorry to hear that

[LisaUk]

It's not acceptable, I agree, but what is 10 years of no love worth? A wife does not do that to someone they love, or feels mutual love. It was a cold hearted thing in his wife's part, but what do you expect from her, I mean really. Have you put yourself in her shoes and then measured the act? I am not justifying what she did, all I am saying is sometimes we do things that our out of our character, or something we soon regret. Does your W regret leaving her family for some strange? When you can answer yes, then you can move on to a possible recon.

 

Sorry but I am straight to the point on posts, I am a firm beleiver that time is a crucial factor, and the sooner you wake up, the better...........

 

10 years worth of no love? (If that is how it was, which I doubt). She had the choice to be a decent human being and express her feelings, try and work on things, if no go, then leave. Unless he was cheating, abusive or using there is NO EXCUSE for what she did, even then leave don't make excuses for your bad treatment of another. There was a lady on here a while ago whos H had been BEATING her for years and I mean BEATING her, strangling her, hit her so hard one night he burst her ear drum. She got involved with a man online, an EA, but you know what? Even she knew it wasn't right and she ended it and moved to a womens refuge.

 

No matter what her feelings were, she did not have to do that to her H and child. The man is a human being not a piece of old rag that you can wipe your feet on. Treat others how you would like to be treated is a good start.

Edited March 13, 2010 by LisaUk

[aimchase]

Oh man, these kind of posts really wake me up in my own situation.

 

She went away for two weeks with this guy but didn't have sex?? Absolute BS, yes she did, I am absolutely certain of it.

 

If she had any regrets at the time, i.e, feelings for you, then why didn't she return after a day or two and admit it to being a terrible mistake? She stayed there for two weeks ffs!

 

Ok, maybe she 'needed to get away', but with some random on on an internet site, and to leave you with your child? I don't understand people like this - what are they actually looking to achieve!??

 

I wish the planet could be divided into two big continents - one for the decent, honourable, loyal, balanced people out there, and the other for the liars, manipulators, cheaters, runners, who can all take the chance of playing their games with their own sort, rather than sucking the life out of decent people.

 

Rant over.....for now......

[spriggig]

It was a typical degradation over time. There was always love and respect between us. Up to this day we've never so much as called each other names or swore at each other.

 

Neglect details: I resisted her sexual advances and her self-confidence plummeted along with her body image. She gained SOME weight, but so did I and it was never her body that turned me off, it was, in hindsight, her lack of self-confidence (vicious circle, right?).

 

I didn't say or do the things a loving husband needs to do to express his feelings and support his wife. I didn't tear her down, I didn't build her up. I ignored her needs she expressed to me only through actions (pouting, sighing, crying and later refusing to hold my hand, pulling away from hugs, etc.), she never confronted me with words on this.

 

I feel like the 10 years of my ignorant neglect are exactly balanced by her two years of intentional deceit. I haven't told her that.

 

She claims she didn't have sex with him. It really doesn't matter. In my mind, the emotional attachment she took from us and gave to him is far more damaging than sex could ever be.

[spriggig]

all of these issues should no longer be your concern.

When I look at her as the cheater and liar, I'm right there with you.

 

But...

When I look at her as the mother of our son...she is a good mother.

When I look at the pictures on the wall...the day he was born.

When I look in her eyes...those beautiful eyes.

 

Yeah.

Edited March 14, 2010 by spriggig

[2sunny]

When I look at her as the cheater and liar, I'm right there with you.

 

But...

When I look at her as the mother of our son...she is a good mother.

When I look at the pictures on the wall...the day he was born.

When I look in her eyes...those beautiful eyes.

 

You couldn't do it either.

 

sure i could if the person's action are holding me hostage the way she is with you.

 

grow some balls and kick her out! she'll never change if you keep making her comfortable. to keep her comfy makes it easier for her to just continue on feeding you a load of crap - to which you just gobble up whole heartedly.

 

take your power back and get a solid boundary. one that does not allow you to be disrespected this way. one that shows her that she can no longer ACT this way and be provided the basic comforts of daily living.

 

when she actually lives with the crappy life that she has chosen to participate in - she may become a bit more willing to consider being a decent person on a daily basis.

 

as long as you make everything ok for her - she gets the idea that she doesn't need to do a thing to change things from the way they are now.

 

get busy making her damn uncomfortable. go pack her bag - leave it on the doorstep - give her 20.00 and remove all her credit cards - have the locks changed and tell her to go live with what she has created (which is a life of misery and chaos). she may consider change when reality hits her hard enough... make the misery last way longer than you are willing - that way she really has to consider what options her life has.

[spriggig]

grow some balls and kick her out! she'll never change if you keep making her comfortable.

 

ARRRGGH! Yes, I know. I do know this, I don't FEEL it.

 

For now I need her income to get the mortgage caught up. And she does owe me that.

 

We'll see if I can focus my anger and kick her out after that. I almost did it once.

 

Thanks.

[Gunny376]

sure i could if the person's action are holding me hostage the way she is with you.

 

grow some balls and kick her out! she'll never change if you keep making her comfortable. to keep her comfy makes it easier for her to just continue on feeding you a load of crap - to which you just gobble up wholeheartedly.

 

take your power back and get a solid boundary. one that does not allow you to be disrespected this way. one that shows her that she can no longer ACT this way and be provided the basic comforts of daily living.

 

when she actually lives with the crappy life that she has chosen to participate in - she may become a bit more willing to consider being a decent person on a daily basis.

 

as long as you make everything OK for her - she gets the idea that she doesn't need to do a thing to change things from the way they are now.

 

get busy making her damn uncomfortable. go pack her bag - leave it on the doorstep - give her 20.00 and remove all her credit cards - have the locks changed and tell her to go live with what she has created (which is a life of misery and chaos). she may consider change when reality hits her hard enough... make the misery last way longer than you are willing - that way she really has to consider what options her life has.

 

SG you might want to check out this thread from a couple of years back.

 

Mind you the DW was off the Reservation (mental and emotional problems ~ off of her medication) Pay particular attention to a poster with the handle LadyJane14, (she's no longer a member of LS having retired)

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t95838/?highlight=wolfe

 

In all of the time I've been a member of LS, this has been the only successful reconciliation that I know of?

 

Every other one (including ILMW) eventually unraveled. (Forum Search Separation and Divorce for his thread, if you can't find it? Let me know and I'll bring it up for you.

 

In so far as this packing her bags, and kicking her to to the curb business? I would wholeheartedly agree in a New York second, trouble is? You've got children with this woman do you not? Be careful of making short term decisions that have far and long reaching consequences that may affect the mental and emotional health ~ and even their future relationships of your children.

 

I don't recall your saying you had children (without going back and looking) nor they're ages. But I assume that you do?

 

With that said you should not make one step toward divorce, kicking her out, etc until you've read "Second Chances" based upon a twenty year + study, (and to my understanding still going on) by two women Social Scientist that found that the effects of children of divorce are affected by it years and years after the ink is dried on the divorce papers.

 

Even into adulthood up to and through their twenties, thirties, and forties. Its affects their future relationships, how they handle conflict, communication, anger management, depression, commitment issues, abandonment issues in their own future relationships and marriages.

 

Now that you've posted further, you clearly are seeing the three fingers you've got pointing back at yourself while pointing the one at the wife. Clearly she was lacking in self confidence, had insecurity issues, needed mental, emotional, physical and sexual encouragement and reinforcement. And clearly there were a communication problem between the two of you on the most personal issues.

 

And then you denied her intimacy when she was the one that initiated it?

Bro? NEVER, AND I MEAN NEVER FREAKING EVER DO THAT TO A WOMAN your involved with, let alone married to. I don't care if you just got back from the hospital from a motorcycle accident, are hungover, and have a migraine. You about as well have slapped her!

 

There's a saying in the Marine Corps? "You can trust a Marine with your money and your Life! But you can never trust him alone with your wife?"

 

This so-called former Marine was just out for a good time, your wife was feeling rejected, dejected, lonely. I question if they had sex, because 'junior' is still living at home with his parents, and most parents don't 'play that' just because they're footing the bill for room and board. And most parents tend to get resentful that they're working their tails off trying to just make it one more day.

 

I would think long and hard about being a 'Billy Joe Bas@zz" and packing her bags and kicking her out into the night with the 'undependable' car, where no place to go but to her crazy brothers.

 

If for nothing else? She is the Mother of your children. And you have a long history with her. Seems like to me that like most couples your biggest problems is in communication.

 

I'm saying to suddenly become Mr. Joey Romantic, and trying and woe her back into the marriage? I am saying that you and she need to open up, communicate, (or at least work at it) and get it out there ~ all of it. The good, the bad and ugly.

 

And be willing to sit there, with your hands under your legs and listen and not say a word, without trying to justify yourself, defend yourself, make yourself the wounded party.

 

She in her own way is trying to make this right by you, and is trying to do the right thing. She had a lapse in judgement in a weak moment. You self admittedly weren't meeting her mental, emotional, physical, and intimate needs ~ and she was doing a really bad job of communicating what those needs were.

 

Your single best shot at marriage, true love and happiness is generally with the first woman you married and had children with. For each successive relationship/marriage? Add 10% failure rate in of and as a general rule. That is to say?

 

The divorce rate for 1st time marriage is around 50%

 

For second time marriages? Around 60+ %

 

For third time marriages? Around 70+ %

 

And your going to find the joker that's going to tell you "I'm on my sixth marriage and I've never been happier in my Life!"

 

Yea right!

 

Guns

[spriggig]

Gunny, read it all and will follow up, but I have this question:

 

Is kicking her to the curb an effective way to try to get her to this?:

 

I am saying that you and she need to open up, communicate, (or at least work at it) and get it out there ~ all of it. The good, the bad and ugly.

 

I have no problem opening up to her and laying it all bare. I've tried twice now to do just that. She is shutting me down, I think she is still in the fog and chasing butterflies.

[Gunny376]

The one and only person that can honestly answer that question? Is her. It could further alienate her, and/or drive her in an opposite direction.

 

At best? We're probally talking a 50/50? But given her circumstances? I would say its better than 40/60 or even better. I mean she really doesn't have a whole lot of options.

 

The goal is simple? Its not to get the relationship it was at its zenith. Its to fully and completely open up the lines of communication and starting an on-going dialog ~ as I said the good, the bad, and even the ugly. Be prepared to sit there and listen to it all without commentary nor counter debate.

 

Any and all else for the moment is secondary. And don't become compulsive/demanding about it, but rather do it in natural, matter of fact way.

 

The one that Wolfe used, if you noticed was to get busy getting busy with his life, self improvement, and moving forward. He really didn't have any other option nor choice? Being a Marine is demanding enough. Being a Marine Major with two teenage children, and the wife off the reservation?

 

Ever how you do it? The immediate and on-going goal is working on just communicating and opening an on-going dialog. In doing so, I would recommend you read Eric Weber's "How To Win Back The One You Love"

 

And its mostly about communication, opening a dialog, how to argue and other aspects of any relationships.

 

Following are the chapters in successive order.

 

Make Conversation, Not Love

 

Don't Walk On Eggshells

 

Starting a Dialogue

 

Listening

 

The Power of Words

 

Don't Scramble for Moral Superiority

 

Changing

 

Excitement

 

When Words Are Not Enough

 

Spending

 

Sharing the Burden

 

Your One Great Strength

 

How To Deal With Your Mate's Affair

 

Insist on One Yea

 

Specificity

 

Steadfastness

 

Don't Be A Pitable Case

 

Professional Help

 

Lawyers

 

Re-coupling

 

I really don't see anything here that not repairable? I do see where unless you learn the lessons that you need to learn, (and her as well) that your doomed to repeat them.

 

The primary reason, you, she, I and so many others find ourselves where we are? Is because we've never been properly educated with formally nor informally as to how to make a relationship work? We were never given nor taught the skill set necessary?

 

Instead we were handed a bunch of societal and cultural myths, fallacies, cliches, and outright un-truths about what a marriage is?

[spriggig]

I read through the recommended thread from WolfP. I read about 2/3 of it.

 

When I got to the part where he is a saint to his wife and you said HE should be writing books on how to treat women, I knew I was sunk.

 

Does this balance?:

Ten years of neglect on my part due to IGNORANCE

Two years of deceit on her part due to INTENT

 

Is it "three fingers pointing to me and one back at her" when ignorance and intent are taken into account?

 

I felt like I came out of my own fog at initial discovery--like I had woken up from a nightmare.

 

I'll accept the answer I'm given.

[spriggig]

Instead we were handed a bunch of societal and cultural myths, fallacies, cliches, and outright un-truths about what a marriage is?

 

At times, I modeled my marriage on my parents'. They went the distance.

 

It was only last year, after my mom died that I found out how unhappy they both were in it. LOL.

[tnttim]

You will never find balance in a relationship, one party always does more than the other in their eyes. Nothing is fair in a relationship either, we all do sh*tty sh*t to our significant other, and that's where the problem begins. It happened to my and I, we got caught in a cycle of getting even. She did this, so I did that, then she did that, and I did this...... it's a never ending cycle you need to break free from. How do you do it.

 

STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Stop justifying your actions, stop getting even, stop saying "but she did it first", stop accusing, stop all that bullsh*t. The one thing you 2 must do reguardless of a recon or divorce is communicate. Talk like 2 human beings that have a common goal, and that goal is not fcking up your kids. They are the innocents in this scenario, they didn't ask to be born, you and your wife made that decision. A good outcome from a divorce is very possible, and I've seen good ones. The common thread is a good strong open line of communication. Communication where both of you can talk without arguing, bickering, or bringing up the past.

[Gunny376]

Does this balance?:

Ten years of neglect on my part due to IGNORANCE

Two years of deceit on her part due to INTENT

 

Is it "three fingers pointing to me and one back at her" when ignorance and intent are taken into account?

 

In binary terms and simplistic thinking ~ it probally does balance in so long as your keeping score. But people are individuals and a paradox in and unto themselves. They're both simplistic and complex at the same time.

 

IMHO there are three different entities in any relationship. You, her, and the 'entity' of "Us"

 

In your case, "Us" isn't doing so well, but that doesn't me you throw the sheet over "his/her" head and call it a day.

 

I would suggest anything prior today? You put and leave in the past and forget about it. Learn from it? Yes! But forget about it. That was then and this is now. That was another person that you and she were back then. You and she aren't the same persons that were then, just as your not going to be same person a year or five years from now.

 

Human being ability to learn and adapt is the reason we're the dominant species on the planet. Had it not be so, we would have gone extinct long ago.

 

When you get married? Your actually marrying three different people.

 

Your marrying the person that you think your marrying.

 

Your marrying the person that your actually marrying.

 

And your marrying the person that is going to come about as result of having been married to you for all these years.

[tnttim]

At times, I modeled my marriage on my parents'. They went the distance.

 

It was only last year, after my mom died that I found out how unhappy they both were in it. LOL.

 

I did the same exact thing and found out the same exact news. My mom was very unhappy at times throughout the M. They just did a good job of keeping it from us kids. I heard stories of my mom packing us up and getting ready to leave because of my dad's drinking. I am the youngest outta 4 by ten years so I missed the early years in their marriage. My W talked to my sister that informed me that I was just like my dad, I should have been proud, but she was talking about the bad part of my dad. I no longer take relationship advise from my dad, though I still love him.......

[Gunny376]

You will never find balance in a relationship, one party always does more than the other in their eyes. Nothing is fair in a relationship either, we all do sh*tty sh*t to our significant other, and that's where the problem begins. It happened to my and I, we got caught in a cycle of getting even. She did this, so I did that, then she did that, and I did this...... it's a never ending cycle you need to break free from. How do you do it.

 

STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Stop justifying your actions, stop getting even, stop saying "but she did it first", stop accusing, stop all that bullsh*t. The one thing you 2 must do reguardless of a recon or divorce is communicate. Talk like 2 human beings that have a common goal, and that goal is not fcking up your kids. They are the innocents in this scenario, they didn't ask to be born, you and your wife made that decision. A good outcome from a divorce is very possible, and I've seen good ones. The common thread is a good strong open line of communication. Communication where both of you can talk without arguing, bickering, or bringing up the past.

 

Good post Tim, but arguing is a necessary and good thing in a relationship ~ the problem is learning how to do so in a constructive, productive and not a vengeful, spiteful, and hateful way.

 

Arguing is necessary because relationships are not a solid rigid and immovable mass, but rather fluid at any given time of any given day.

 

It expresses one mental, emotional, physical, intimate needs ~ and / or space.