Spriggig's log

[CarrieT]

Here is all I can offer in support: I've noticed that in the chats between her and the OM, they are constantly "touching base" with each other. They chat in-game and don't play side-by-side, but do have a chat window open. There are more "Kiss-love", "kiss", "love you babe", "You're sweet", and so forth than there is actual conversation. I only have two examples of this and I have no idea what their phone conversations or texts are like. Email conversations seem non-existent.

 

Sprig, here is some insight into that "chat" - they are still in the throws of beginning a relationship where the adrenaline of the newness still exists, but that "touching base" is a defensive act of them maintaining contact with banality when there is really not much substantial upon which that relationship will be built.

 

As you see, there is no actual conversation and I would put a hundred dollars down that her new relationship will not last more than five years (if that). Outside the fantasy of the game and after the newness of the crush has worn off, she will realize they have nothing to say to each other.

[spriggig]

Sprig, here is some insight into that "chat" - they are still in the throws of beginning a relationship where the adrenaline of the newness still exists, but that "touching base" is a defensive act of them maintaining contact with banality when there is really not much substantial upon which that relationship will be built.

 

As you see, there is no actual conversation and I would put a hundred dollars down that her new relationship will not last more than five years (if that). Outside the fantasy of the game and after the newness of the crush has worn off, she will realize they have nothing to say to each other.

 

The one phone conversation I overhead a few seconds of a couple of weeks ago--they were actually talking about the weather.

[spriggig]

She tried to get out of returning the car today, like she agreed to yesterday.

 

I stood my ground.

[kimflute26]

Hey there, been following your log. Good on you for holding your ground.... honestly I think you are doing a great job and I know what you are going through takes A LOT of daily strength.

[spriggig]

Hey there, been following your log. Good on you for holding your ground.... honestly I think you are doing a great job and I know what you are going through takes A LOT of daily strength.

 

Thank you. I'm sorry it's your turn to face these burdens.

[spriggig]

I've been reading back through my posts and I see that often I am selfish. Not always, but often enough to bother me.

 

I'm going to explore this further.

[dreamingoftigers]

I've been reading back through my posts and I see that often I am selfish. Not always, but often enough to bother me.

 

I'm going to explore this further.

 

Good for you,

 

LOL sorry my last post looks like I did some "Drunk Writing" and we all know that friends don't let friends do that.

 

To clear up some weirdness: This last time was the second time my husband went on a bender and disappeared. Last time I went looking for him and brought him back, encouraged him to seek help, heal etc. Tried to smooth things over and help his hurt feelings that caused the bender. All the co-dependent stuff.

 

This time he didn't use any of the tools in our counseling and was making a half-assed attempt at recovery (at best). He went for awhile. I did not go looking and went NC instead. It was quite the reality check. He really thought he would just waltz back in the door in a couple months and just take half of the time with our daughter. Not so. I let him know via email that if I didn't hear from him that I would rent out our room and he would have to only have contact with me through our marital counselor.

 

I think that your wife is probably under similar delusions. That if LB doesn't work out that you will be a safe place to land. Be a safe place to land, but not to her. She hasn't done anything to deserve it and everything to destroy it.

 

We are all a little selfish, even the co-dependent types are motivated to do it often out of some kind of selfishness (it can be where we draw our self-esteem from). Your wife clearly can't self-regulate and turns to external sources for self-worth, it would only make sense that you who was with her for so long would have similar issues.

 

Good for you looking at yourself, most of us only look at other's faults.

[spriggig]

Good for you,

 

LOL sorry my last post looks like I did some "Drunk Writing" and we all know that friends don't let friends do that.

 

To clear up some weirdness: This last time was the second time my husband went on a bender and disappeared. Last time I went looking for him and brought him back, encouraged him to seek help, heal etc. Tried to smooth things over and help his hurt feelings that caused the bender. All the co-dependent stuff.

 

I'm curious what it's like to go looking for someone in that state. Where is he and what is he like when you do find him? I can only imagine.

 

This time he didn't use any of the tools in our counseling and was making a half-assed attempt at recovery (at best). He went for awhile. I did not go looking and went NC instead. It was quite the reality check. He really thought he would just waltz back in the door in a couple months and just take half of the time with our daughter. Not so. I let him know via email that if I didn't hear from him that I would rent out our room and he would have to only have contact with me through our marital counselor.

Good for you for going NC.

 

I think that your wife is probably under similar delusions. That if LB doesn't work out that you will be a safe place to land. Be a safe place to land, but not to her. She hasn't done anything to deserve it and everything to destroy it.

I'm sure her mindstate will change when/if LB dumps her, but I don't know which way she'll go. She's been through a divorce before and she isn't the type to forgive. In spite of what she said in the text, she hasn't forgiven me--that was clearly mostly manipulation. I doubt she'll try to come back to me. But, who knows? I do know I'm better off believing she won't

 

We are all a little selfish, even the co-dependent types are motivated to do it often out of some kind of selfishness (it can be where we draw our self-esteem from). Your wife clearly can't self-regulate and turns to external sources for self-worth, it would only make sense that you who was with her for so long would have similar issues.

Hmmm, I do/did draw a lot of self-worth from being married--I think that is true. Except for my son, I can't think of anything else external to me that I'm proud of.

 

Good for you looking at yourself, most of us only look at other's faults.

You've been through some counseling and life experiences and it's unselfish of you to share your ideas with me. Thank you.

[CarrieT]

Hmmm, I do/did draw a lot of self-worth from being married--I think that is true. Except for my son, I can't think of anything else external to me that I'm proud of.

 

Sprig, I am a lot like you in that regard and have often viewed myself as a reflection of the man I was in a relationship with. It has only been the last two years of being single (for the first time in 25 years of adulthood) that I had to learn to stand on my own.

 

In that regard, I HEARTILY recommend you take a good hard look -- and make a list! -- of ALL the good things in your life that you have done, experienced, and assets. It is an important exercise to start building on those good things; important for you and your son.

 

It is easy to wallow in the darkness of the divorce and destroyed marriage and to start succeeding, have a list of those things that are good. It might be the fact that you HAVE a house (when many are losing theirs), you are very handsome, you are healthy, you are extremely erudite and intelligent, etc. When your son sees how strong you are and how you have survived, HE will become a better adult and husband himself.

[spriggig]

Sprig, I am a lot like you in that regard and have often viewed myself as a reflection of the man I was in a relationship with. It has only been the last two years of being single (for the first time in 25 years of adulthood) that I had to learn to stand on my own.

 

In that regard, I HEARTILY recommend you take a good hard look -- and make a list! -- of ALL the good things in your life that you have done, experienced, and assets. It is an important exercise to start building on those good things; important for you and your son.

 

It is easy to wallow in the darkness of the divorce and destroyed marriage and to start succeeding, have a list of those things that are good. It might be the fact that you HAVE a house (when many are losing theirs), you are very handsome, you are healthy, you are extremely erudite and intelligent, etc. When your son sees how strong you are and how you have survived, HE will become a better adult and husband himself.

 

Thank you Carrie. I find your advice grounding. Counting my blessings DOES help as does resisting her requests for support or leniency and trying to hold her accountable for the promises she makes.

[spriggig]

Her: ":( I Don't wanna be like this. I understand why u are upset..."

 

OK, I get it now. The entire text chat meant she wants to be "friends". Screw that, it's all or nothing.

 

To her, between us "friends" means a one-sided exchange, all her direction. She hasn't forgiven me, in spite of what she claims, and she never will--that anger will always be there when she looks at me. What kind of friend could she really be to someone she still holds such a horrible grudge against? Not any kind of friend I want.

 

We're even now. But, until and unless she finds it in her heart to truly forgive me, we can't be friends.

[Rearden Metal]

OK, I get it now. The entire text chat meant she wants to be "friends". Screw that, it's all or nothing.

 

To her, between us "friends" means a one-sided exchange, all her direction. She hasn't forgiven me, in spite of what she claims, and she never will--that anger will always be there when she looks at me. What kind of friend could she really be to someone she still holds such a horrible grudge against? Not any kind of friend I want.

 

We're even now. But, until and unless she finds it in her heart to truly forgive me, we can't be friends.

 

The most lucid post you've made in a week.

[spriggig]

The most lucid post you've made in a week.

 

Thank you.

Edited March 29, 2010 by spriggig

[spriggig]

She came tonight to drop off the car, give me some money she owed me and pick up her computer.

 

I won't see her again until next weekend when she picks up our son for Easter.

 

Having fully exposed my failures and hers in two threads now and having gotten essentially the same response: that we are pretty equal in our failures, I find it impossible to be angry with her or myself for any length of time.

 

I can't trust her to be honest about what she thinks of me. She shouted "you had 10 years!" out of the blue during the argument--that's her real feeling--that is the very statement she wrote in her journal two years ago, it's her defense when she feels the guilt coming on. I think the stress of the argument lowered her defenses and the guilty feelings rushed right in so she had to boost her defenses by simply shouting out what she normally just needs to say to herself. She texted "you didn't have 10 years because I didn't tell you how I felt"--that's her lying about how she feels to smooth things over and be "friends".

 

So, this is what I'm left with as I contemplate ways to make LC as much like NC as possible. When she is around I feel a little bit sad but mostly just that I love her. I didn't want to take the money tonight because I know she needs it right now more than I do, but I did anyway. I wanted her to take the computer because I know she wants it. In Saturday's text chat I asked her "Why should I care what happens to you?", I'm so glad she didn't text back what she probably knows is true: "Because you love me." That would have been checkmate.

 

So, how DO I make LC as much like NC as I can? It would be best if I just dropped off our son at her brother's house, that way I'd have control over NOT seeing her for that transfer. I'd still have to see her when she dropped him off or I picked him up, tho. But that is half as many times seeing her. Alright, good enough one step at a time, I guess.

[CarrieT]

So, how DO I make LC as much like NC as I can? It would be best if I just dropped off our son at her brother's house, that way I'd have control over NOT seeing her for that transfer. I'd still have to see her when she dropped him off or I picked him up, tho. But that is half as many times seeing her. Alright, good enough one step at a time, I guess.

 

That sounds like a good plan, actually.

 

Also, STOP texting. For one thing, if you relegate your contact via email entirely and negotiations start to break down, you will have documentations for court (this is a preventative measure). That is harder to do with texts. Trust me on that accord -- being able to go back to an email to confer on what exactly was said in arrangements and whatnot, is comforting. You might never need the information in those emails, but if dividing up stuff or arguments over your son become remotely contentious, you will have what was said documented and that more difficult with texts that occasionally get deleted.

 

You are doing well, Sprig. Keep strong and know you are doing the right thing.

[GrayClouds]

 

So, how DO I make LC as much like NC as I can? It would be best if I just dropped off our son at her brother's house, that way I'd have control over NOT seeing her for that transfer. I'd still have to see her when she dropped him off or I picked him up, tho. But that is half as many times seeing her. Alright, good enough one step at a time, I guess.

 

Just keep any needed conversation, short, polite and only about business at hand. Nothing personal.

 

And then make sure your doing the second part of NC the healing,focusing on yourself and your son, trying new things, being active, spending quality time with your son.

 

This is a very important time for you and him. You are in the position to show him how to be a healthy person dealing with life's set back. Your example will great influence him in his life and his future. What guilt your feeling for the mistakes you made in the relationship can be addressed by using this experience to build your relationship with your son and helping him, and yourself, grow.

 

I've been reading back through my posts and I see that often I am selfish. Not always, but often enough to bother me. I'm going to explore this further.

 

The most valuable way to explore this is through action. You have a perfect opportunity to be that better man. Be selfless with your time and closeness with him.

 

 

.

[spriggig]

Also, STOP texting. For one thing, if you relegate your contact via email entirely and negotiations start to break down, you will have documentations for court

 

Good point. It's too easy to innocently enter a text conversation and end up making a promise or agreeing on something important.

 

She doesn't check her email too often, I'll have to text her to tell her that I emailed her.

 

Thanks.

[JustJoe]

Sprig, I must have missed something, what was it that she needed to forgive you for, again?

[spriggig]

Sprig, I must have missed something, what was it that she needed to forgive you for, again?

 

I'll just link to this thread, it pretty well sums it up.

 

Essentially, over a period of 10 years I spoke less and less to her, complimented her very little and denied her sex on several occasions. She admits that, for her part, she made virtually zero attempt to confront me about these problems. I really had no idea just how bad it was for her. I was in a blissfully ignorant fog--a frog boiling in an increasingly hot pot of water.

Edited March 31, 2010 by spriggig

[spriggig]

So, I made intense, friendly eye-contact with my son's attractive speech therapist today, while she explained his progress and I listened politely.

 

It helped my confidence some and I think it helped hers a bit too, she seemed open to the extra attention.

[dreamingoftigers]

Not to be rude Spriggig but if your wife was crying and begging for sex, she was telling you how that felt.

 

I have been repeatedly rejected for sex. It really does dissolve an intimate relationship and grate on a woman's self-esteem.

[spriggig]

Not to be rude Spriggig but if your wife was crying and begging for sex, she was telling you how that felt.

 

I have been repeatedly rejected for sex. It really does dissolve an intimate relationship and grate on a woman's self-esteem.

 

I said that, and it sounds like she was confronting me, crying and verbally asking for sex. No, after the first year, we never TALKED about sex at all, we just did it or didn't do it. And we never talked about negative feelings about sex.

 

It was really her laying on the bed crying softly and me playing on the computer. In retrospect, deep down I knew what she was crying about. I'm sitting right now in the same spot, I'm looking at that spot on the bed imagining her there, the blankets are crumpled on the bed and she could almost be under them--I'm doing my best to remember how I felt. I think I wanted her to confront me about "whatever" was wrong. And, maybe it seemed like a battle of wills to me.

 

The other way she "begged" was to snuggle up to me in bed and I'd pull away.

 

I can tell you this, even when we weren't having sex, I fantasized about her. I've always been physically attracted to her. I was turned-off on an emotional level.

 

Was your experience similar to this?

[dreamingoftigers]

Yes, almost verbatim. Although sometimes it has gotten explosive I once broke a bowl our of frustration.

 

I let him know a million ways that it broke my heart. I have laid awake at night, I have cried a lot.

 

I read books on the subject.

 

He wants the porn and other girls. He even says he is attracted to me and thinks of me, but it never translates into anything. I am the other woman in my own marriage.

[GrayClouds]

 

I can tell you this, even when we weren't having sex, I fantasized about her. I've always been physically attracted to her. I was turned-off on an emotional level.

 

Then the big question for you is; why?

[spriggig]

Then the big question for you is; why?

 

I think the short, canned answer people give in this situation is "we drifted apart". And, other people say "Oh, hmmm, yes, I know what you mean. Let's go have coffee."

 

I've looked more closely at what "we drifted apart" means in my case. This is looking back at 10 years condensed into a few paragraphs. Also, I focus on the problems, because I want to "solve" the problem. There were plenty of loving, happy times too--though as time went on, they became fewer and for her they were tainted by what I'm about to describe.

 

I've described this to her and she confirmed this is how it looked from her side, too.

 

We got married, we moved into our new house together with our infant son and her five-year-old from a previous marriage.

I settled into bringing home a paycheck. She settled into being mom to the kids.

I felt secure and proud that I had accomplished what I wanted: Home, wife, kids--American Dream.

Within the first year I became complacent, the sex was fairly regular, considering the kids, etc. but I wanted more from her. I wanted to try new things, nothing bizarre, just new positions and so forth. She agreed and we tried but we always fell back into the routine. The routine stopped doing it for me and I stopped initiating. Then one night when she tried to initiate, I pulled away. Sometimes I would still initiate, but far less frequently. She started trying to initiate more often. Neither of us ever talked about this, it was all actions. The problems in the bedroom spilled over into everyday life, common intimacy became less frequent. Less kissing, less hand holding, less "I Love You", etc. Everything went slowly down hill, everything a family does together we did less and less. Up until 10 months ago, when EA#3 really took hold, we'd still say ILY, we still called each other "love" and we we're still at least a little thoughtful of each other. We were never mean to each other.

 

Here is what I've come to understand about this situation and how it progresses, I found this dynamic briefly described in the book "How to Light Her Fire" and at a website I've long since forgotten and from a friend here at work who has the same problem in her relationship.

 

The first time I rejected her, there was a small blow to her ego, her confidence and her body image. A tension built up in her between the desire to be close to me and her lower confidence and poorer body image. When she overcame the lower confidence and body image and dared to try again, I sensed the lower confidence and poor body image and was turned-off on an emotional level. We'd have sex, but I wasn't as satisfied. I wanted sex with her body but, I was turned off by her attitude, her actions. The more I pulled back the more she wanted me. Back and forth the cycle goes, each time expanding the gap between us. We never talked about it, we just let it happen. Until two years ago, we never explicitly addressed it. We just gave up. It sucks.

 

I take half the responsibility and I leave the other half for her.

 

So, you might be tempted to say "Ah, communication! You guys never talked about it!"

 

Wait, not so fast. When I described this to my friend at work, she said that's pretty much what happened in her relationship. With the difference being that she is very open and talks constantly with her SO, he is always up to date on how she feels and they have talked many times about their problem. The end result was the same--she is on her way out the door.

 

It's not JUST communication. It's not JUST her lowered body image. It's not ONLY one thing. It's a complex dance with many pieces affecting the whole.

 

We search out and latch onto simple, pat answers because it's easy to say "Well, here's what you do for, so called, 'poor libido'" or "Here's how you learn to communicate better" or, "Here is how you improve each others' confidence."

 

There is no simple answer to "Why". The complex nature of human interaction requires a complex analysis to gain any real understanding. We can ask "why, why, why" but the answers we usually get back are how something happened, like I have here. Or maybe a shrink could look at my actions and then label me. And, that label seems like "why", but it's really just one step removed from "how".

 

This is the best I've come up with.

Edited March 31, 2010 by spriggig