Spriggig's log

[CarrieT]

Sprig, that is one of the more enlightened posts on the subject in some time.

 

Thank you for sharing.

[dreamingoftigers]

I think the short, canned answer people give in this situation is "we drifted apart". And, other people say "Oh, hmmm, yes, I know what you mean. Let's go have coffee."

 

I've looked more closely at what "we drifted apart" means in my case. This is looking back at 10 years condensed into a few paragraphs. Also, I focus on the problems, because I want to "solve" the problem. There were plenty of loving, happy times too--though as time went on, they became fewer and for her they were tainted by what I'm about to describe.

 

I've described this to her and she confirmed this is how it looked from her side, too.

 

We got married, we moved into our new house together with our infant son and her five-year-old from a previous marriage.

I settled into bringing home a paycheck. She settled into being mom to the kids.

I felt secure and proud that I had accomplished what I wanted: Home, wife, kids--American Dream.

Within the first year I became complacent, the sex was fairly regular, considering the kids, etc. but I wanted more from her. I wanted to try new things, nothing bizarre, just new positions and so forth. She agreed and we tried but we always fell back into the routine. The routine stopped doing it for me and I stopped initiating. Then one night when she tried to initiate, I pulled away. Sometimes I would still initiate, but far less frequently. She started trying to initiate more often. Neither of us ever talked about this, it was all actions. The problems in the bedroom spilled over into everyday life, common intimacy became less frequent. Less kissing, less hand holding, less "I Love You", etc. Everything went slowly down hill, everything a family does together we did less and less. Up until 10 months ago, when EA#3 really took hold, we'd still say ILY, we still called each other "love" and we we're still at least a little thoughtful of each other. We were never mean to each other.

 

Here is what I've come to understand about this situation and how it progresses, I found this dynamic briefly described in the book "How to Light Her Fire" and at a website I've long since forgotten and from a friend here at work who has the same problem in her relationship.

 

The first time I rejected her, there was a small blow to her ego, her confidence and her body image. A tension built up in her between the desire to be close to me and her lower confidence and poorer body image. When she overcame the lower confidence and body image and dared to try again, I sensed the lower confidence and poor body image and was turned-off on an emotional level. We'd have sex, but I wasn't as satisfied. I wanted sex with her body but, I was turned off by her attitude, her actions. The more I pulled back the more she wanted me. Back and forth the cycle goes, each time expanding the gap between us. We never talked about it, we just let it happen. Until two years ago, we never explicitly addressed it. We just gave up. It sucks.

 

I take half the responsibility and I leave the other half for her.

 

So, you might be tempted to say "Ah, communication! You guys never talked about it!"

 

Wait, not so fast. When I described this to my friend at work, she said that's pretty much what happened in her relationship. With the difference being that she is very open and talks constantly with her SO, he is always up to date on how she feels and they have talked many times about their problem. The end result was the same--she is on her way out the door.

 

It's not JUST communication. It's not JUST her lowered body image. It's not ONLY one thing. It's a complex dance with many pieces affecting the whole.

 

We search out and latch onto simple, pat answers because it's easy to say "Well, here's what you do for, so called, 'poor libido'" or "Here's how you learn to communicate better" or, "Here is how you improve each others' confidence."

 

There is no simple answer to "Why". The complex nature of human interaction requires a complex analysis to gain any real understanding. We can ask "why, why, why" but the answers we usually get back are how something happened, like I have here. Or maybe a shrink could look at my actions and then label me. And, that label seems like "why", but it's really just one step removed from "how".

 

This is the best I've come up with.

 

Similar pattern here, but I don't know when all of the other influences started coming in.

[spriggig]

Similar pattern here, but I don't know when all of the other influences started coming in.

 

If you don't mind, did you guys communicate openly about the intimacy problem?

[dreamingoftigers]

Tried to, he says he gets anxiety everytime we talk about relationship stuff. Counseling is pretty rough for him. There are a lot of mommy-control issues there and a lot of Daddy-abandonment ones (3 Dads gone).

[spriggig]

Tried to, he says he gets anxiety everytime we talk about relationship stuff. Counseling is pretty rough for him. There are a lot of mommy-control issues there and a lot of Daddy-abandonment ones (3 Dads gone).

 

Were you aware of this anxiety issue from the beginning? Did you know the degree?

 

My wife has some social anxiety--she says she gets hives sometimes when she has to enter a new social situation. I had no idea until all this that she had actual panic attacks, only that she was "shy" of new social situations. I'm shy in new social situations, so that's what I thought she meant.

[dreamingoftigers]

I had NO idea. The man I met was so confident, but he had also just quit drinking and he says he had no idea who he was until long after and says he still doesn't really know.

 

He is shy now and not very social. He has a hell of a time connecting on a personal level. I had no idea how bad until we started to fall apart. Unfortunately for me he is a very good actor. Hi childhood seemed to not have a very great affect on him. He can do anything social and relational if he has something addictive to back him. Unfortunately it also destroys him in the long run.

 

He was VERY checked out for my pregnancy and has massive anxiety over being a family.

[spriggig]

I had NO idea. The man I met was so confident, but he had also just quit drinking and he says he had no idea who he was until long after and says he still doesn't really know.

 

He is shy now and not very social. He has a hell of a time connecting on a personal level. I had no idea how bad until we started to fall apart. Unfortunately for me he is a very good actor. Hi childhood seemed to not have a very great affect on him. He can do anything social and relational if he has something addictive to back him. Unfortunately it also destroys him in the long run.

 

He was VERY checked out for my pregnancy and has massive anxiety over being a family.

 

Mine is a good actor too. She hid the extreme depth of her sadness from me as she hid the social anxiety. I think her reasoning was that I and the kids should not be exposed to it, that it was her problem alone to deal with. The way she chose to deal put the final nail in the coffin.

[dreamingoftigers]

I think my husband hides out of shame because he thinks no one will care about him.

[spriggig]

Tomorrow she comes to pick up our son for Easter. She'll have him for the weekend at her brother's house.

 

The first taste of how it will be.

 

FML

[Rearden Metal]

Tomorrow she comes to pick up our son for Easter. She'll have him for the weekend at her brother's house.

 

The first taste of how it will be.

 

FML

 

Oh man... I feel for you. An empty house in a low time is a very difficult thing to deal with.

 

Get outside if you can. Not much will make you truly feel better, but sitting in there will not be healthy at all.

 

I wish I had good advice. I feel hypocritical saying NC NC NC given my situation, but I feel confident that NC is the only way to go when you're hurting that badly.

[dreamingoftigers]

Or exercise, going out for a walk is the only thing that has saved my sanity this week. Go on and explore a new portion of your neighbourhood. I know it sounds a little lame but it is better then just brooding or sitting around watching tv etc.

[mickleb]

Sprig, that is one of the more enlightened posts on the subject in some time.

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

Terrifyingly honest? Yes. Enlightened? Far from it.

 

x

[spriggig]

Terrifyingly honest? Yes. Enlightened? Far from it.

 

x

 

It wasn't terrifying for ME to be honest about this.

 

The behavior I described was exactly the opposite of enlightened and that was the point. I've said all along that I acted out of ignorance, and my wife was no better.

 

I think CarrieT might have meant "enlightening"? Learning all this was certainly enlightening for me. Maybe I shed a little light on this for CarrieT?

 

I just try to share what I've learned.

[CarrieT]

I think CarrieT might have meant "enlightening"? Learning all this was certainly enlightening for me. Maybe I shed a little light on this for CarrieT?

 

I just try to share what I've learned.

 

Thanks, Sprig, for ironing out the semantics. It was an honest post which I believe took a great deal of insight on Sprigs part and in that regard, showed him to be enlightened about his trials and tribulations, in which turn -- by sharing to us -- is enlightening to all of us.

 

Howz that?

[GrayClouds]

Guy1:"It took so long to build this family with my wife, 12 years. I feel like these years are wasted. If I find someone new it will take me even longer to build a new one." Guy2:"Whats to say that you don't find a better women and it only takes 4."

Guy3: Rather then looking for a better woman I will work on becoming a better man and then what ever happens I will know my years will not be wasted.

 

 

All three have insight but which one is the enlightened one?

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 3, 2010 by GrayClouds

[mickleb]

It wasn't terrifying for ME to be honest about this.

 

The behavior I described was exactly the opposite of enlightened and that was the point. I've said all along that I acted out of ignorance, and my wife was no better.

 

I just try to share what I've learned.

 

I'm afraid I found it pretty scary, Sprig. Your emotional detachment in that post is unnerving.

 

Would you mind repeating what you have learned from that behaviour?

 

x

[White Flower]

I hate the hope monster.

 

I love the hope monster.

I love your posts sprigig!

[spriggig]

I'm afraid I found it pretty scary, Sprig. Your emotional detachment in that post is unnerving.

 

Would you mind repeating what you have learned from that behaviour?

 

x

 

If by emotional detachment you are reacting to the way it sounds, the way I wrote it, then that could be because I've written that particular part of my introspection I would say over twenty times. I know it like the back of my hand--which is why it's a good idea I think to post it. I'm stuck on it and haven't moved forward for weeks.

 

What have I learned from the behavior I described? I sincerely hope I've learned to recognize it and avoid repeating it.

 

Did it sound as though I were condoning the behavior? I hope not.

[spriggig]

I love your posts sprigig!

 

Thank you. I enjoy yours too. Your avatar is one I scan for when I skim through threads.

[spriggig]

Yes, almost verbatim. Although sometimes it has gotten explosive I once broke a bowl our of frustration.

 

I let him know a million ways that it broke my heart. I have laid awake at night, I have cried a lot.

 

I read books on the subject.

 

He wants the porn and other girls. He even says he is attracted to me and thinks of me, but it never translates into anything. I am the other woman in my own marriage.

 

I don't know how I missed this post before.

 

Through introspection and thinking about how much I must have hurt my wife, I think I understand your pain.

 

I'm very sorry you've experienced it.

[dreamingoftigers]

thanks, I am also very happy to thread-jack LOL.

[White Flower]

Thank you. I enjoy yours too. Your avatar is one I scan for when I skim through threads.

Awww, how sweet.

 

I chose this white lily in remembrance of Lyssa, a poster we all loved who recently passed away. She was wonderful.

 

I'll keep looking for your posts.

[GrayClouds]

If by emotional detachment you are reacting to the way it sounds, the way I wrote it, then that could be because I've written that particular part of my introspection I would say over twenty times. I know it like the back of my hand--which is why it's a good idea I think to post it. I'm stuck on it and haven't moved forward for weeks.

 

What have I learned from the behavior I described? I sincerely hope I've learned to recognize it and avoid repeating it.

 

Did it sound as though I were condoning the behavior? I hope not.

 

This morning I walked outside and notice my truck's tire was flat. I began to understand that I would not go very far unless I had tire that was not. But it was until a decided to do the hard work of jacking up the tire, pulling the lugs, putting on the spare, re-tighten the lugs and dropping the jack no amount of clinically deep thinking, honest enlightenment, nor sincere hoping was going to improve my situation.

 

I suspect what meckleb is referring to is the fact you say you hate the "hope monster' but in fact it appears you embrace it quite enthusiastically and with great comfort for it offers safe emotional distancing and the alibi for inaction.

 

You offer little indication why you behaved like you did to this person you loved of 12 year, where you learn this destructive pattern of behavior, how are you going to learn new healthier pattern of behavior to insure that you will not repeat this towards another loved one.

 

What you described in your behavior was passivity at best and an inability, or lack of desire at worst, to recognize and address the emotional need of a love one of 12 years. Beyond intellectualizing the situation there is no indication yet that there is a strong desire to actively address the obvious chhosen disconnection of the behavior. You already appear to be repeating again for even now you are simply "hoping" you do better next time.

[spriggig]

This morning I walked outside and notice my truck's tire was flat. I began to understand that I would not go very far unless I had tire that was not. But it was until a decided to do the hard work of jacking up the tire, pulling the lugs, putting on the spare, re-tighten the lugs and dropping the jack no amount of clinically deep thinking, honest enlightenment, nor sincere hoping was going to improve my situation.

 

I suspect what meckleb is referring to is the fact you say you hate the "hope monster' but in fact it appears you embrace it quite enthusiastically and with great comfort for it offers safe emotional distancing and the alibi for inaction.

 

You offer little indication why you behaved like you did to this person you loved of 12 year, where you learn this destructive pattern of behavior, how are you going to learn new healthier pattern of behavior to insure that you will not repeat this towards another loved one.

 

What you described in your behavior was passivity at best and an inability, or lack of desire at worst, to recognize and address the emotional need of a love one of 12 years. Beyond intellectualizing the situation there is no indication yet that there is a strong desire to actively address the obvious chhosen disconnection of the behavior. You already appear to be repeating again for even now you are simply "hoping" you do better next time.

 

Did you have to know "why" the tire was flat in order to repair it? Why? Human males evolved this distancing behavior specifically to break up relationships that were no longer of value to the "selfish gene". We're not meant to stay with one mother, it's best for the species if males spread their seed far and wide.

 

OK. I've read "Light Her Fire", "You Just Don't Understand", and "Genderspeak". I think I have a pretty good idea of what I should do next time, action-wise. But, I have no one to "practice on". And, frankly reading this stuff now is pointless because I'll just have to read it all again in a year or so when I'm ready to date again.

 

Action I've taken against the Hope Monster? I handed her divorce papers a week ago and sent her out of my house. I've been in LC for the past week. I do my best to slaughter the Hope Monster and wash it down the drain. This morning in the shower I think I convinced myself that there is nothing I can do to "bring her around". That as long as she credits others for her happiness and blames them for her unhappiness, there is no way she'll ever see me as anything other than a source of pain--because of my past actions that I can do nothing to change now. She is in love with another man and is likely going to repeat this whole thing with him over some time period.

 

It's very possible she's bringing me signed and notarized divorce papers in a couple of hours. Then it's my turn to sign and file.

Edited April 4, 2010 by spriggig

[dreamingoftigers]

Did you have to know "why" the tire was flat in order to repair it? Why? Human males evolved this distancing behavior specifically to break up relationships that were no longer of value to the "selfish gene". We're not meant to stay with one mother, it's best for the species if males spread their seed far and wide.

.

 

This is so much of the stuff I hear coming from men, honestly i think if a man had never heard the caveman theory, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. if you go into the other parts of the forum many of the cheaters etc say things like "we aren't monogamous" etc. i would like to think that we all have choices. quite frankly, you must have been getting your "needs" met somewhere for all of that time. i am not saying you were cheating per se, in fact i suspect but i have come to learn that even being withholding for a long period of time has the same results.

 

so many of the cheaters on the forums talk about how their spouses are withholding and that's what drove them to it. quite frankly if it was not for the principles i hold and knowing what all of the cheating bs has done to me, i would be compelled to do the same. as human beings, it is intensely difficult to live without intimacy. these days in actually feels quite like starvation.