ArdeaCandidissima, Bark: morals, infidelity, sex, marriage, sympathy, support, etc.

January 11, 2004

This is to Ardea, Bark, and anyone else who has read / commented on their posts and other posts dealing with lack of sex in a marriage, feelings of loathing toward a spouse, etc.

This is long - but it is a true story. It is MY story. I've included a page from the diary I kept during those painful years. Take from it what you will. It was not easy to tell here.

I can say that I see a little bit of every side and facet of this debate. I can understand and empathize with different feelings. I’ll go ahead and share my experience and view since very few people here actually know who I am. There are parts of my story that are embarrassing to me.

Feeling repulsed by a spouse. Yes, been there.

When my husband and I were dating and first became engaged we began sleeping together. I had a few guilt issues “premarital sex guilt complex” but I was confident that we would be married and I got over the guilt. Besides, I found that I really enjoyed sex. I had only been with one guy before my husband and that was only 3.5 times! Nothing special – just enough to know I wanted to wait until I was married – or nearly married!

We had a good sex life – once or twice a week and it was generally very satisfying. By the end of our first year of being engaged, and as our wedding date approached, his sex drive began to diminish. I realized that I was the initiator about 90% of the time. I wasn’t concerned about it. Our first child was born in January. I lost the weight and toned up pretty quickly. I didn’t gain a lot of weight when I carried either of my kids. I didn’t even show until the 8th month!

During our first year of marriage he began to turn down or avoid my advances sometimes. I was a little hurt, but I figured that was normal—we could not always be on the same wavelength, and it was easier for me to participate even if I wasn’t in the mood than it was for him to participate. If he’s not in the mood it’s not going to happen. We did have sex a few times and we had our second child – a boy.

The kids were no problem – both slept through the night at about five weeks, they weren’t criers, were very healthy and happy and we were very, very lucky. We both adored them and he doted on them as much as I did.

During those first couple of years we did not have a lot of money and my husband hated the Houston heat so we seldom went outside. That meant that we bought the cheapest groceries (potatos, pastas, bread, etc.) and we sat at home watching TV – and gaining weight together. He did try to go play putt-putt or walk around malls with me every once in a while, but it was only when he knew we would be sitting in a nice cool theater at the end of the day. The kids were babies then – as they got older and went to school they made friends and they got plenty of exercise.

My husband also had a knee injury when he was a kid and it flared up during this time. Within the first thee years of marriage he had two knee surgeries. This limited his mobility and since I wanted to be with him I stayed home and took care of him. Again – all we seemed to do was sit and eat and watch TV or play board games.

We had gone through a period of unemployment and homelessness during this time as well. For a while we lived out of a 1973 VW Bug. (The kids stayed with friends. This was another problem. I didn’t have any family that lived close –my mom lived in California we are in Texas – and his father would only let my husband stay with him for a couple of weeks, but not me. My husband would rather die than be around his abusive, drunk father) Anyway, we were both depressed too. Inertia and eating and no exercise. When we finally got past that hump we were both walking security. Or rather – I walked security around an apartment complex for 12 hours a day. He got a security job where he sat in a security booth for 12 hours a day – opposite each other. When he got home at 6AM, I was walking out the door. I got home at 6PM and he had already left for his job. We saw each other about 10 minutes a day for six days and on Sunday we were exhausted.

Anyway, we tried to diet and exercise. We did okay on the diet for a while, but every time my husbands knee would flare up he would not be able to do anything and so I sat home with him. His consolation for not being able to do anything was food.

We would each lose 30-40 pounds a year in the spring and gain 40-50 in the winter. We always ended up larger. Anyone who has not battled, and I mean seriously battled, their weight cannot understand the complexity and overwhelming strength of this problem. If it were easy to solve then no one would be overweight or obese.

I eventually found a decent job and so did he. We had our evenings together again and every other weekend. During these years we stopped having sex. We had some honest communication about it, including going to counselors. The bottom line was that he was repulsed by me. My own husband – who weighed over 300 pounds (at 5’ 8”) and rolled when he walked, was repulsed by me. He said he loved me but “not in that way anymore.” My husband found me repulsive. Not only that, but at one time during our counseling session he admitted that the only reason he stayed married to me was because he felt obligated to. So I was a repulsive obligation. I cannot begin to describe how that hurt – it was the worse hurt I had ever known.

I can’t count the number of times I spent hours cleaning the house and making myself as beautiful as I possibly could. I'd shave, used lotions so my skin was soft and scented – he said once when we were dating that he loved that about me. My hair was perfect, my teeth and breath, I found the most flattering negligees. He would come home and I would have dinner for him, I would wash his back in the shower, I would massage his feet, and then he would say he was tired, had a headache, there was a TV show or game on that he didn’t want to miss, any excuse he could find to not touch me. Day after week after year.

I cried so hard sometimes I was sick from it. I went to doctors. I tried to lose weight and I did some, but I’m one of those people who can gain weight on 800 calories a day. I’ve always been big and I was big when we first met! I’m big boned and carry a lot of weight. I lost a lot of weight once – and I was so sick from it. I looked “average-normal” on the outside, but inside I was sick and even the doctors told me that I should not try to be that small. I was wearing a size 12 and for my health that is too small. I was wearing a size 16 when my husband and I met.

Anyway, we went to counseling and doctors and the years rolled by and I cried and felt horrible. I felt horrible about myself. I would look at my brother and sister-in-law and my SIL and I were best friends. She weighed over 500 pounds. My brother was a big guy too – probably around 350 lbs and 6’ 2”. They had an active, healthy sex life. I know I should not have compared my marriage to theirs, but I couldn’t help but look at them and think “Brother loves his wife enough to want her sexually and she’s bigger than me, so what else is so wrong with me that my own husband shuns me?”

During those years there were times I wondered why we stayed married. But that was easy to answer. I was sure that no one else would want me – I mean, if my husband who still always told me that he loved me and cared about me – didn’t “want” me sexually then certainly no one else would. So why not stay with a known quantity. I did love him. Besides, the kids would be devastated and without a combined salary (which was meager) I could not afford to take care of the kids and if he had to pay child-support he wouldn’t have enough to live on. Besides, he kept having knee problems. So I stayed and hoped and even tried to pray to a God that I didn’t believe in – I was willing to try anything. So help me, I even went to a doctor and asked if there was a surgery or some drugs that would completely take away my libido so that I would feel nothing.

I kept a diary during all of this – it may sound sophomoric, but it was actually helpful. I can go back and look at what I wrote then and (this may sound conceited) sometimes I marvel at what I was able to withstand and get through to reach the point where I am today. I don’t know how I did it—it’s even overwhelming in print.

I just pulled out my diary – I’ll share an entry with you. This is from our 11th year of marriage. We hadn’t had sex in 7 or 8 years at this time and I was still battling the emotions. The Lucy mentioned was our dog that got a bad cut and stitches.

--------------------------

“Dear Diary,

Well, I made a critical error tonight – I backslid – a lot. I showed weakness. I actually cried on J’s shoulder and said – OUT LOUD! – “I’ve forgotten what it feels like to be a woman. I wish I could feel like a woman once more before I die.”

You know what J said? He said, “You know something I don’t know – about dying I mean?” in a joking laughing voice – to joke away my comment.

I mumbled something about “we both know the same thing” and went to my room. J’s sleeping in the guest room tonight to keep an eye on Lucy so Lucy doesn’t lick her wound.

I guess I had that coming. I must NEVER EVER show any feelings. FEELINGS are BAD they are WRONG. I have NO FEELINGS. ALL MY FEELINGS ARE WRONG – THE ARE BAD. I AM NOT NORMAL. I HAVE NO VALUE. I AM WORTHLESS. ANY ABERRANT FEELINGS I MAY THINK I HAVE I MUST PURCE IMMEDIATELY. I HAVE NO FEELINGS. NO FEELINGS. NO FEELINGS.”

------------------------

The “No Feelings” was my mantra for many years and I would remind myself of it often. That is how I got through the pain. I tried everything the counselors told me to do, but that didn’t always work. I stopped taking my own Prozac because it actually increased my libido. I got out of my depression by repeating the “no feelings” mantra and by telling myself that I am a valuable person and I can show my value as a mom and to an employer. I turned all my energy toward my kids and work. Every single time I felt a twinge of desire I would go take a very cold shower and brush my teeth almost until they bled. I would suck on a lemon cover my face with pillows and scream into them – sometimes going into the closet and putting the stereo on loud so that no one could hear my screams.

As my husbands physical disability got worse he became more affectionate toward me. Afterall, now he had a legitimate excuse. He wasn’t physically able to have sex. I tried to approach him about sexual activities other than intercourse and he would turn bright red and change he subject – he is too embarrassed and very inhibited with me.

His love for me grew because I actually did stick with him. If I had posted my story during those hard times I’m willing to bet that the majority of people on LS would have told me I was a fool to stay with him.

There were times when I thought seriously about trying to find sexual release outside the marriage. I even threatened him with it and he would hang his head and say he wouldn’t blame me if I did that. I asked him if he would care and he said yes and no – he wouldn’t like it, but he would understand it and he just didn’t want to know the details. He basically gave me his permission to have an affair. I could have – I had opportunities. The maintenance guy at the apartment had a major crush on me. He used to stutter a little but when he got around me he blushed furiously and could barely utter a word! It would not have taken much effort on my part to have fallen in the sack with him. I had opportunities other places too. I left a job once because the temptation was so great with someone I worked with. It was so wonderful to know that someone actually wanted me.

There were times when I didn’t know if I did not have an affair because of my love for my husband and the vows we took. Or if it was only because all of those years of being shunned by my husband made me fearful of showing my body to anyone else – I would be mortified for anyone else to see me naked. I think it was the vows I took that was the real clincher in not having an affair. I already felt so bad about the marriage that I didn’t need to add the emotional baggage from an affair to the pile.

We were a great couple when we were out and we’ve had many people – including the doctors we saw and the preacher at the hospital where J had surgeries – tell us that they could see what a loving couple we were and how happy we were together. We smiled, laughed, kissed, and showed affection to each other in public. We have always had a great public persona.

The years went on. Our financial situation continues to go up and down. We bought a house and we had separate bedrooms. Our daughter died in 1999. Our son died in 2002. We are content with each other. We found our equilibrium. We love each other more now then ever before. He can’t have sex, but if we wanted we could find ways to please each other sexually. But we don’t. We are better off without sex. Sex, while important in a marriage, is not what a marriage is built upon. Our foundation is rocky, but the rocks have all settled into a firm and virtually unbreakable foundation. We’ve been through too much together. He loves me more now then he ever did before. He has finally dealt with all of his own demons from his childhood abuse. He says he wishes we could have a physical relationship now but he’s still too embarrassed and uncomfortable with his own body. Even though I am large I do not have the inhibitions that he does. We put in a pool a few years ago because it’s the only kind of exercise we can get that does not damage our joints.

I have rheumatoid arthritis too now and its often painful to walk or bend in certain ways. He’s had a complete knee replacement on his left knee and as soon as I am working and have insurance again he will have his right knee replaced. The pool is wonderful because its cool and we do get some good exercise. We also skinny dip late at night and J has actually made a couple of sexual advances! We laugh about them because even though we are more mobile in the water we still don’t bend in the right way anymore. Besides, we discussed it and have decided that we are perfectly fine continuing in a celibate marriage. We don’t want to stir up any physical desires that can’t be fulfilled or may lead to being hurt again. We don’t need it. So now celibacy is a choice and one that we are happy with.

Every one is different. If you are in a marriage or relationship and you are not happy, or don’t love your spouse, the do something. Find a way to stay in it or find a way to leave it. Get outside help – you cannot do it alone. Don’t presume to know how the other person is feeling about themselves, about you, about your relationship/marriage. Get some outside help to find a way that is best for you. If you can’t afford a therapist go to a church. Even though I don’t believe in God, our first counseling was sessions were through a church. Everything was based on God – but the therapy was valid and the counselor was trained in secular counseling methods, as well as, Christian methods. It was a start and we were doing something. When we were able, we found secular therapy. Together and alone.

We scraped up enough money to order the Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus video tapes. They were such poor quality that they were almost unwatchable, but we did watch them together. We would pause them and ask each other if that applied to them, or how they thought about things, or pause it and shout “That’s What I Mean!” to each other and those tapes helped us tremendously. Find the tapes or get the book. You don’t have to read/watch with your spouse – there is good insight and a way of looking at things that is very beneficial for just one person.

I know this is long. But there is so much pain out there and I thought if I told you a little about my life that perhaps someone would be able to see that there is hope for happiness in everyone’s future and that nothing stays the same. The pain will pass – it may get better or worse for a while, but there is always hope for happiness.

January 11, 2004

hokey,

that was beautiful. and inspiring. and humbling. i'm printing out now for posting. you are a very strong woman; i want to show this to my fiancee. thank you for posting.

January 11, 2004

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR YOUR POST We are never as alone as we think we are, are we?

January 11, 2004

Hokey... thank you for posting your story. I certainly also think you are a very strong person, and feel humbled. I fuss and bother about such small things sometimes, and reading your story of struggle and triumph helps keep things in perspective.

January 11, 2004

hokey, thank you for sharing something so private with us. I think what a lot of couples don't realize is that in order for a relationship to survive there must be a commitment to something more. More than sex, more than personal desires and wishes, more than what we think we should have because that's what we see on TV or read in books and magazines.

you are an incredible person, hokey!

quank

January 11, 2004

Hokey,thank you . I needed that. I will write more later, but gotta run back to work:) You are truly inspiring

January 12, 2004

How humbling and inspiring!!

What a wonderful story to share.

Thank you!

January 12, 2004

Wow.

Thank you for sharing. I don't have the words to describe what I felt and what thoughts went through my mind and what feelings went through my heart when I read this. I'll carry your story with me always now. I hope every couple reads this and thinks about their own ideas of what a marriage and love should be.

January 12, 2004

Thank you for sharing your experience. I understand a lot more what you have said about your marriage in the past.

If you are in a marriage or relationship and you are not happy, or don’t love your spouse, the do something. Find a way to stay in it or find a way to leave it. Get outside help – you cannot do it alone. Don’t presume to know how the other person is feeling about themselves, about you, about your relationship/marriage. Get some outside help to find a way that is best for you.

Your story isn't easy to summarize or draw a lesson from. What you said about either fixing it or leaving is excellent advice. I'm not sure if you're saying that your story is an example of that. I see that after many years and much pain, you and your husband have come to an accommodation that you both can live with.

My condolences on the loss of your son and daughter. I give you my best wishes for your future.

January 12, 2004

There are so many lessons to be learned from Hokey's story, even for those who aren't married or contemplating a life with another person. Thanks for sharing some rather painful stuff with us Hokey. I imagine that anyone who reads it will benefit in some way from doing so.

January 12, 2004

how did your kids die?

January 12, 2004

What is so inspiring?

Hokey, you have rationalized yourself to go with out sex.

I feel bad for you even if you don't feel bad for yourself.

January 12, 2004

If their relationship works for them, that is all that matters. They don't need anybody's approval.

January 12, 2004

Your story gives me a lot of hope, Thank you.

I'm also curious as to how your children died?

January 12, 2004

I don't think her story is a rationalization at all. I love my spouse and never thought about intimacy problems (thankfully we have not had any) but to love someone, and/or be loved by someone so much that they would go through hell to stay together is awesome. To go through something so painful and profound and choose to stay together, to get help and support from counselors, and to fight so hard for a marriage that most of us would probably have abandoned, well... I just see it as very powerful, and very inspiring. It's easy to say you would love someone and stay with them no matter what -- but its much harder to actually do it. There are too many breaking points that Hokey passed where others would have been broken.

To be at a point now where they are happy and secure after all that they have been through is what I find inspiring. Sex is important in a marriage -- but its not everything. I don't think that sex, or lack of sex, would be a breaking point in my marriage -- but I don't know for sure. It would certainly put an enormous strain on the marriage. To feel bad for someone because you couldn't live their life is what I think is sad. I'm looking at things differently now, and I am sorry that there there was so much pain in their marriage - but I don't feel bad for Hokey at all. Sounds like she is pretty healthy and happy in her marriage now.

January 14, 2004

Hokey,

Your story reminded me of a contest once.....which was for artists to render a painting of 'Peace'. There were a lot of lovely tranquil scenes painted. The one which won, however, was a mother bird in a nest with her wings over her babies....in the midst of a great storm.

It's all about finding peace and love......in the 'midst' of everything bad.....which can make or break us. You found love within many many storms......and I really have a great respect for you.

I don't think less or more of someone if they decide to stay or leave a marriage which no longer works for them. It's a personal call. It's how they get thru their final decision.....which sets them apart.

Arabess

January 15, 2004

Arabess, I seem to remember seeing that painting. It was so heart-wrenching. I'll have to scan the 'net to see if I can find it again.

Errol, Thank you for not feeling sorry for me. I didn't post to gain sympathy - there isn't anything in my life for which to feel sorry.

At the onset of puberty my daughter started having some health problems. We found out she had a genetic heart condition. From diagnosis to death was less than a year. She was 13. Her brother at the time was 11. He had epilepsy since he was two and had some other health problems that go along with that. He was on several meds and we honestly thought that we would lose him long before her, but we still figured he would be grown--maybe in his 40's or 50's since the meds seemed to be helping. But when he was 14 he had a stroke and lived for a day and a half. I held my daughter when she died and my husband held me. My husband held out son when he died and I held my husband. The thing that still wakes me up at night is a thought that seems to zoom into my brain -- he was a year older than her when he died and that is just impossible because he was the little brother, therefore, neither of them are gone. Another form of denial I suppose. I don't think that will ever end -- it's been almost 4 years and almost 2 years and I still think I hear them in another room, or catch a glimpse of them walking around a corner. I am so very, very lucky to have had such wonderful, glorious kids in my life - to never have known them at all would be the real tragedy.

January 15, 2004

My children are now 11 and 14....

I won't say I feel sorry for you...cause you said you didn't want that.....but my heart will cry for yours....okay???? For the rest of my life.....every Mother's Day.....I will remember you and wonder how you had the strength to move on.

January 15, 2004

my children too are now 11 and 14...... my son has epilepsy and asthma..... my daughter is healthy as a horse..... i cant even bear the thought of my life with out them hokey....... i just cant..... you are indeed the strongest woman i have yet to encounter in my life...... along with my aunt who buried 3 of her children as well due to illness. i dont feel sorry for you at all.... but admire the fact that you actually have the strength to endure some of lifes crap. i can only hope i can find your strength to deal with my petty bulls*** problems. thank you so much for your story. it definately puts a lot of things in perspective for me.

January 15, 2004

Hug them for me Arabess, & lostforwords -- even if they resist!!! And I'll know that somewhere out there in the world a 14 y/o and an 11 y/o are being hugged like I used to hug mine -- and at least one of them will be saying "what is wrong with you mom?!"

January 15, 2004

Hokey, I do also admire your strength and bright outlook and think your posts help me put my petty worries more in perspective!

I don't have kids yet, but I can only imagine how it would be to outlive your children.

January 15, 2004

Blessings to you, Hokey.

January 15, 2004

My heart goes out to you Hokey as when I read your story I cried. My mother has been a strong woman for most of her life and now is going through the point in her second marriage where she would prefer not to have sex at all with my stepfather. They are both going through some health problems right now, but they still remain together. I'm sorry for the loss of your children, I myself had Leukemia when I was a child and my mother was a single woman watching me through all my pain, I'm so proud that she held herself together for me. I have been in remission for over 12 years now. I only worry that when I may have kids that it may happen to them. Your story has touched me and I am printing it out so I may share a copy with my mother and keep a copy for myself. I'm still young, I was married for a short time, he left me for another woman and because I had a drug problem, but not anymore. He refused marriage counseling when I pleaded for him and I to work on our marriage. But I am fine now, and living my life one day at a time.

January 15, 2004

Hokey, when I joined LoveShack back in March of 2003, you were the first person to respond to my post about staying with my husband after his emotional affair with my best friend. I was completely flabbergasted that someone even cared enough to write, having never posted on a website of any kind.

Now, after reading your beautiful story, I am compelled to let you know how you touched my life then and how you continue to do so now.

There is a saying that I keep on my desk: "People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." (Maya Angelou)

You've made us all "feel." Keep in touch. I care. Kay

January 15, 2004

Thanks, Hokey, for your heartrending, terribly sad but nevertheless uplifting story of a marriage surviving, on its own terms, despite daunting odds.

That came from your soul.

Thank-you.

ArdeaCandidissima, Bark: morals, infidelity, sex, marriage, sympathy, support, etc.

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