When the handwriting is on the wall

[threebyfate]

My age is my age, but I was just at the bar the other day talking to a guy and his girlfriend and they were asking where I hang out. Then they said but you are clearly younger than us. They were 34 and guessed me at 29. I said I'm 37 and they made me show my ID. It's a little off topic but my age is only a concern for those who have the need to comment. Not based on how I look or act or how we look together. I wish I could post a picture because we are a stunning couple.

Herein lies why this is so difficult for you to assert yourself. She's tied into your self-esteem in a major way, more than most people experiencing break up.

[northstar1]

You say there is no way this can end well. That's discouraging of course. I'd like to think that people can change and that she may need to get through this period for us to move forward. I think the seriousness of it all freaked her out in the face of her youth, although she is the relationship type. My age is my age, but I was just at the bar the other day talking to a guy and his girlfriend and they were asking where I hang out. Then they said but you are clearly younger than us. They were 34 and guessed me at 29. I said I'm 37 and they made me show my ID. It's a little off topic but my age is only a concern for those who have the need to comment. Not based on how I look or act or how we look together. I wish I could post a picture because we are a stunning couple.

 

She's just at that age where she has a very fairytale vision of how life and marriage should be. She wants a huge wedding; a big house; everything so neat and perfect and I'm sure there's no kids from a prior marriage in that scene. I'm sure her prince isn't 13 years her elder either, but I think it's the combination of both that freaks her out. Who knows.

 

 

Paper, you may look like Zac Effron, but the age isn't the issue here at all.

 

The issue is you are grown man with two kids.

 

She is a young woman who is still dreaming of the big barbie wedding, and the perfect catalog children and isn't ready for having all of that right now with you.

[paperchase]

 

Everything I am about to say in this post is out of love. I just want to get that out of the way first...Since she is contradicting herself, you need to turn to the facts....She broke up with you. There is an action. And her reason for it? She doesn't want to be tied down. There you go....

 

Also, I think you mentioned that if the both of you reconcile that counseling is a must? Because of the fact that she doesn't want to have anything to do with children? Please, if you get anything out of what I have ever said to you, please let it be this: Counseling will not change that. ...If she ever does become convinced that this is what she wants, she will quickly revert back to her old ways... since she never got the opportunity to fulfill what was really holding her back this whole time.

 

Let her live her life the way she wants. And allow yourself to do the same.

 

I know you write out of love. I think we all do here. It's what makes this place special. I know that actions must match words. I know that her saying she will never find another love like ours is bogus. I know if she believed that we'd still be together. I'm not confused about what's going on in her mind. She wants space, freedom, from me from us from our relationship. Why? That I don't know. Maybe kids, maybe someone else, maybe a bunch of things but that doesn't really matter since whatever it is, I cannot and should not be trying to change her mind.

 

You are right that if she doesn't want kids counseling won't change that. If I don't like blue, I don't like blue. But if my lover likes blue, perhaps I can let her paint the bedroom that color and learn to like it. Ouch, that sounds bad when you draw the analogy to kids. I don't want her to just tolerate them. My thinking was that kids are a lot for her to digest and that it's going to take some time. She's going to have to come to terms with it. I know it's tough for her. She even asked if I'd move once and I mentioned the kids as a reason I could not. But I'm not compromising on her need to embrace them. It's the only way. The question is whether she loves me enough to do this. Whether she can be happy at the same time. I noticed her pulling away from them as she pulled away from me. But I know she loves them because she has done alot with them over the years. We've done a lot together.

 

I think your comment about letting her lead her life the way she wants is one of the best I've heard. Letting her fulfill what has been holding her back. That means letting her date other people and test the waters. She did it before and came back but I guess she's not done exploring.

[paperchase]

Paper, you may look like Zac Effron, but the age isn't the issue here at all.

 

The issue is you are grown man with two kids.

 

She is a young woman who is still dreaming of the big barbie wedding, and the perfect catalog children and isn't ready for having all of that right now with you.

 

We have a winner! Sadly, I think you are right. But then why does she keep coming back to me? Why does she talk about getting married and having my babies. She seems genuinely confused. She says she's not sure we should be together but that she just can't get over me. How long before she gets over the barbie dream wedding? Not that I'll be waiting.

[paperchase]

Can I just say that love sucks. Why is it so difficult? Why does it feel so good and then turn so bad? Why must it hurt? Why can't we love unconditionally without driving the other person away? Why is the grass always greener. Why does it seem like you must manipulate your partner to keep them intrigued? Why do people bail rather than work out their differences. Sometimes I think that in 200 years, the institution of marriage will be abolished because our entire society will be based on instant gratification.

[paperchase]

Herein lies why this is so difficult for you to assert yourself. She's tied into your self-esteem in a major way, more than most people experiencing break up.

 

She wouldn't be the first women who made me feel this way.

[northstar1]

We have a winner! Sadly, I think you are right. But then why does she keep coming back to me? Why does she talk about getting married and having my babies. She seems genuinely confused. She says she's not sure we should be together but that she just can't get over me. How long before she gets over the barbie dream wedding? Not that I'll be waiting.

 

Dude, I dated a girl in college, a year or two younger than your ex, but same stage of life. I was a few years older, graduating 2 years before her. We dated for 2 years, totally in love, talked about marriage, kids, the whole thing. She told me she wanted to have my kids etc etc etc.

But that was just a conceptual fantasy at the time, in a time far far away. She wasn't ready for kids at that age, both mentally, or emotionally. I knew we weren't getting married in the near future.

But we still talked about it, because it is easy to do at that age when life is still totally mostly carefree and you aren't burdened by reponsibility. But it sure sounded convincing at the time.

 

As with most relationships at that age, they don't last. People still need to find themselves, priorities change etc. We went our separate ways after breaking up after college. She wanted freedom, I was starting a career.

 

Eventually she was ready for that storybook wedding/kids etc, when she was 30. But is sure wasn't back when she was 22.

[paperchase]

Dude, I dated a girl in college, a year or two younger than your ex, but same stage of life. I was a few years older, graduating 2 years before her. We dated for 2 years, totally in love, talked about marriage, kids, the whole thing. She told me she wanted to have my kids etc etc etc.

But that was just a conceptual fantasy at the time, in a time far far away. She wasn't ready for kids at that age, both mentally, or emotionally. I knew we weren't getting married in the near future.

But we still talked about it, because it is easy to do at that age when life is still totally mostly carefree and you aren't burdened by reponsibility. But it sure sounded convincing at the time.

 

As with most relationships at that age, they don't last. People still need to find themselves, priorities change etc. We went our separate ways after breaking up after college. She wanted freedom, I was starting a career.

 

Eventually she was ready for that storybook wedding/kids etc, when she was 30. But is sure wasn't back when she was 22.

 

Hey, I know exactly what you mean. And she isn't ready for kids. Not mine and not her own. She's too selfish to share and admittedly so. BUT she did want to put a timeline on marriage. She always asked when and she had a concrete idea that it would happen in the next year or two with me. When she considered moving in (before deciding against it) her main concern was that I don't just plan on having a move in girlfriend for years without a greater commitment.

 

30s a long time off. Maybe I should find a 30 year old now. Lol!

[threebyfate]

1. Can I just say that love sucks. Healthy love doesn't suck.
   
2. Why is it so difficult? It's difficult if you pick the wrong partner. The right partner makes it oh so easy.
   
3. Why does it feel so good and then turn so bad? Because drama can be an addiction.
   
4. Why must it hurt? It doesn't have to be.
   
5. Why can't we love unconditionally without driving the other person away? People rarely, if never, love unconditionally. They expect at minimum, love to be returned. There are many kinds of love that aren't healthy, as well as many emotionally unhealthy individuals.
   
6. Why is the grass always greener. It's not, so why are you fixated on someone who lives like this?
   
7. Why does it seem like you must manipulate your partner to keep them intrigued? You don't. If you're spending all your time manipulating, how in the world can you build a solid foundation for a healthy relationship?
   
8. Why do people bail rather than work out their differences. In situations like yours, better to bail than keep wasting time, energy and emotion, on a project relationship.
   
9. Sometimes I think that in 200 years, the institution of marriage will be abolished because our entire society will be based on instant gratification. Okay, now you're being melodramatic.
   

[paperchase]

1. Sometimes I think that in 200 years, the institution of marriage will be abolished because our entire society will be based on instant gratification. Okay, now you're being melodramatic.
   

 

I'm not so sure. Each generation is changing in profound ways about they way they view relationships. I'm clued into this because I have a younger sister and because I've been exposed to these views by my younger ex-gf and her friends. What is valued is mindboggling and this is not just for 24 year-olds. The amount of cheating and the extent to which it is accepted is staggering. I don't want to hijack my own thread but everything now is instant. And very little is repaired anymore. In fact, things are not constructed to be repaired anymore. You cannot deny that we live in a disposable society.

[threebyfate]

I'm not so sure. Each generation is changing in profound ways about they way they view relationships. I'm clued into this because I have a younger sister and because I've been exposed to these views by my younger ex-gf and her friends. What is valued is mindboggling and this is not just for 24 year-olds. The amount of cheating and the extent to which it is accepted is staggering. I don't want to hijack my own thread but everything now is instant. And very little is repaired anymore. In fact, things are not constructed to be repaired anymore. You cannot deny that we live in a disposable society.

Do you recall what you were like at 24? I recall that time and look back thinking, "baby, you've come a long way"!

 

Don't expect that someone of that age, is going to be viewing life the same way you do. The two of you are at different stages in life, with different experience levels. Experience hones perspective and mellows the absolutism and confusion of youth.

[paperchase]

Do you recall what you were like at 24? I recall that time and look back thinking, "baby, you've come a long way"!

 

Don't expect that someone of that age, is going to be viewing life the same way you do. The two of you are at different stages in life, with different experience levels. Experience hones perspective and mellows the absolutism and confusion of youth.

 

Fair enough. At 24 I was walking down the aisle about to purchase a brownstone in Manhattan. I was very focused on finding a partner and building a life. We both held very well paying positions and were fresh out a professional school. Many of our classmates did the same thing. I don't see much of that today. I've matured lots, but fundamentally I'm the same person just a bit more experienced.

 

The other thing is that while we are at different stages we are both at the starting line. I am rebuilding my life post divorce where I got screwed out of a small fortune. I'm looking for someone to get it right with this time, notwithstanding that I do have some baggage. So does she.

Edited March 29, 2010 by paperchase

[threebyfate]

Fair enough. At 24 I was walking down the aisle about to purchase a brownstone in Manhattan. I was very focused on finding a partner and building a life. We both held very well paying positions and were fresh out a professional school. Many of our classmates did the same thing. I don't see much of that today. I've matured lots, but fundamentally I'm the same person just a bit more experienced.

 

The other thing is that while we are at different stages we are both at the starting line. I am rebuilding my life post divorce where I got screwed out of a small fortune. I'm looking for someone to get it right with this time, notwithstanding that I do have some baggage. So does she.

I get the sense that you're viewing this as failure, which reflects on you. Part of the self-esteem thing, you should work on. Life's not that intense and not all relationships last forever. You jumped into something, with someone who's not at the same stage in life. Time to back off and get to know yourself better.

[stillafool]

I know you write out of love. I think we all do here. It's what makes this place special. I know that actions must match words. I know that her saying she will never find another love like ours is bogus. I know if she believed that we'd still be together. I'm not confused about what's going on in her mind. She wants space, freedom, from me from us from our relationship. Why? That I don't know. Maybe kids, maybe someone else, maybe a bunch of things but that doesn't really matter since whatever it is, I cannot and should not be trying to change her mind.

 

You are right that if she doesn't want kids counseling won't change that. If I don't like blue, I don't like blue. But if my lover likes blue, perhaps I can let her paint the bedroom that color and learn to like it. Ouch, that sounds bad when you draw the analogy to kids. I don't want her to just tolerate them. My thinking was that kids are a lot for her to digest and that it's going to take some time. She's going to have to come to terms with it. I know it's tough for her. She even asked if I'd move once and I mentioned the kids as a reason I could not. But I'm not compromising on her need to embrace them. It's the only way. The question is whether she loves me enough to do this. Whether she can be happy at the same time. I noticed her pulling away from them as she pulled away from me. But I know she loves them because she has done alot with them over the years. We've done a lot together.

 

I think your comment about letting her lead her life the way she wants is one of the best I've heard. Letting her fulfill what has been holding her back. That means letting her date other people and test the waters. She did it before and came back but I guess she's not done exploring.

 

 

First let me say the only reason I keep bringing up your age is you said the first time she broke up with you your age was the reason why. Now it is your children. I bet age is still a factor in her mind or she wouldn't have felt so strongly about it the first time. I also think it is a big factor in yours because you keep talking about how young you look.

 

Also you say she has done alot with your kids over the years. Well, she is only 23 so are you talking about the age of 19 or 20? If so, yes this girl needs to move on and experience her life. She has lots to see, learn and experience before she settles down to be a mother and wife. Do you really want to rob her of those years?

 

You may look young but you are not (in comparison to people her age) and nothing is going to change that. You seem to think being young is all in how you look and act but it entails far more than that. You have lived through your teens and early 20's and now it's her time. It would seem that if you really love her you would let her go because you would want what's best for her. When and if she comes back to you and says "I was wrong about us but now I know that I want to be your wife and be a mother to your kids and ours." Then you can take her back and marry, but first you have to set her free to be young.

[paperchase]

First let me say the only reason I keep bringing up your age is you said the first time she broke up with you your age was the reason why. Now it is your children. I bet age is still a factor in her mind or she wouldn't have felt so strongly about it the first time. I also think it is a big factor in yours because you keep talking about how young you look.

 

Also you say she has done alot with your kids over the years. Well, she is only 23 so are you talking about the age of 19 or 20? If so, yes this girl needs to move on and experience her life. She has lots to see, learn and experience before she settles down to be a mother and wife. Do you really want to rob her of those years?

 

I'm sure age is a factor and coupled with kids it become overwhelming for her. Yes it's a factor for me too. If I didn't look so young it would be a greater factor. We started dating when she was 21. She's 24 now.

 

You may look young but you are not (in comparison to people her age) and nothing is going to change that. You seem to think being young is all in how you look and act but it entails far more than that. You have lived through your teens and early 20's and now it's her time. It would seem that if you really love her you would let her go because you would want what's best for her. When and if she comes back to you and says "I was wrong about us but now I know that I want to be your wife and be a mother to your kids and ours." Then you can take her back and marry, but first you have to set her free to be young.

 

I don't want to rob her of anything. I love her enough to let her go but I do believe in what we had and the promise it offered. So it's a tough situation. I have a range of conflicting emotions as does she. Can no contact be a part of setting her free?

[paperchase]

I get the sense that you're viewing this as failure, which reflects on you. Part of the self-esteem thing, you should work on. Life's not that intense and not all relationships last forever. You jumped into something, with someone who's not at the same stage in life. Time to back off and get to know yourself better.

 

Yes, I have internalized the relationship's failure. I felt the same way about my broken marriage.

[threebyfate]

Yes, I have internalized the relationship's failure. I felt the same way about my broken marriage.

Why? You're responsible for your choice in partner and also, for any problems that you personally created in the relationship. Beyond that, she owns her own issues.

 

Internalizing relationship failure, is like saying that you can control other people (which is reflected in the manipulation aspect of your relationship). You can't so it's time to admit this to yourself.

[stillafool]

 

Can no contact be a part of setting her free?

 

Yes it can but more importantly it will set you free.

[EricaH329]

Yes it can but more importantly it will set you free.

 

Exactly. Which is the goal of NC.

 

Paper, how did last night go?

[paperchase]

Exactly. Which is the goal of NC.

 

Paper, how did last night go?

 

Last night went fine...I think. We picked up some food from her place and cooked it at mine. Watched our favorite TV show. Had some beverages and made love before bed. Held each other and had a small spat in the morning because I woke her up. Talked the next morning/afternoon. Made plans to hand on Easter...church, brunch, etc. Never talked about the relationship. She had asked what are we and I said we clearly aren't boyfriend and girlfriend. She initiated the intimacy which started out as cuddling over TV. I didn't hear from her after around noon though, so we definitely aren't in communication like we used to be.

 

I'm really just not trying to think about it. Despite all the advice, I don't think NC is appropriate unless I can't deal because it sends the message that (i) I can't deal and need to block you out and (2) I'm punishing you for something. Since she didn't cheat (that I know of) and since she broke up with me for stated reasons that are understandable given her youth, I really have no right to be mad. Now if she disrespects me or does something of that nature, then I could go NC and be on good grounds.

[paperchase]

oh yeah, other details. She asked about going to church and hanging out on Easter. Also asked if I wanted to see a movie this weekend. I'm not getting any real communication from her. No morning or good night txts. Little if any chatting during the day. It's unsettling but I'm trying my best not to be rattled.

[stillafool]

Paper, I think the reason you aren't using NC is because the two of you aren't broken up yet. I hope it works out for you.

[northstar1]

Paper, I think the reason you aren't using NC is because the two of you aren't broken up yet. I hope it works out for you.

 

I think in her mind they are, in his mind, they aren't.

 

That is the problem.

 

She can have the attention with him when she wants, she's getting what she wants, he isn't. And at any time, because she's set the rules, she can walk away when it becomes too heavy.

 

Basically he's become her FWB. If he is cool with that, great. But I think he's just happy to accept whatever crumbs she is giving him, as to not lose her.

 

I hope things work out, but my feeling is she'll keep Paper around in this situation, until someone else comes along that fits the mold that she seems to have in her mind. In which case, I see this being a huge blow to Paper if he waits around and continues to follow her whims.

[EricaH329]

I am glad you had a good evening. With that said, there are a couple of things that i'd like to comment on.

 

I'm really just not trying to think about it.

 

Ah, I know this feeling all too well. Unfortunately, it never turns out to be the correct way to go about things. You might be able to supress the emotions and thoughts now... but when you cannot hold them in any longer they will surface more intensely than you ever thought possible. This isn't very healthy. But I have a feeling you know this.

 

Despite all the advice, I don't think NC is appropriate unless I can't deal because it sends the message that (i) I can't deal and need to block you out and (2) I'm punishing you for something.

 

The reason you can deal now, is because 1-- You aren't thinking about it, and 2-- You still have her in your life. This feeling will not last forever, though.

 

As for the messages it will send... again, that's not the point of NC. NC is meant for you, not her. If you ever go into NC wondering what the other person will think about it (to the extent you are) then you would be doing it for all the wrong reasons. This is meant for you to heal and move on. Not for her to think differently of you.

 

I really have no right to be mad.

 

Besides the broken promises, right?

[paperchase]

I think in her mind they are, in his mind, they aren't.

 

That is the problem.

 

She can have the attention with him when she wants, she's getting what she wants, he isn't. And at any time, because she's set the rules, she can walk away when it becomes too heavy.

 

Basically he's become her FWB. If he is cool with that, great. But I think he's just happy to accept whatever crumbs she is giving him, as to not lose her.

 

I hope things work out, but my feeling is she'll keep Paper around in this situation, until someone else comes along that fits the mold that she seems to have in her mind. In which case, I see this being a huge blow to Paper if he waits around and continues to follow her whims.

 

No, we are definitely broken up and I know it. I don't get all the calls and attention I used to. The communications are short and unemotional. My invitations to get together are sometimes met with I don't knows, I'm not sure, I might have to work late. And so I'm not in the driver's seat.

 

And yes, I will get totally cut off when it either becomes too heavy or she finds her ideal. But for some reason NC doesn't feel right until I get totally cut off or until she does something openly disrespectful or until I just can't take this dynamic which admittedly is tough on me. I don't know whether to call or text or what to say or not say. I just don't talk about us.

 

But the more I think about things the more certain I am that limited contact will not make her miss or chase me because it's pretty much what she wants. Unless that is, I find someone new and it becomes clear that limited contact is what I really want too. This is gut wrenching.

 

I really need to have some sort of irreversible revelation that says I don't want her, it could never work, be glad it's over. I wish I could brainwash myself sometimes.