heartsick... again...

[Fallen Angel]

I think you mentioned in your first thread that he did not have HB (hysterical bonding) with his W once they made love after she tried to win him back. Then when you learned of the reason why he threw you under the bus (sorry, hate the expression myself) and you asked him why, he texted you with 'I guess there was HB afterall'. Was that a different thread? I'll go find it.

 

I am confused by everyone thinking that Hysterical Bonding indicates that a relationship is on the mend. It is simply an affirmation of life.. what i mean by that is that people in highly stressful situations will "hysterically bond" with whomever happens to be closest.

 

Take for example people living in New York during 9/11. In the immediate aftermath there were a lot of relationships in which hysterical bonding took place. People called up exs and reconnected at least physically for awhile. Rescue workers left long term spouses and started new relationships with people they met during the crisis. Others had lots of "I could have died" sex with their own spouse.

 

It is also seen in couples who lose a child. It seems odd to someone on the outside that a couple suffering from such a tragedy will often have sex a lot in the days and weeks following that loss. It has less to do with actual love or respect and much more to do with wanting to feel alive again. To fill the void they are feeling. I know this one from first hand experience.

 

It also is quite frequently seen in dying patients and their fixation on their doctor or nurse. Not that they ever actually have sex, but the dying person sometimes "fall for" their caretaker. Simply as a way to still feel alive.

 

It is all still the same, all still in the category of "hysterical bonding".

 

In the case of an affair, the betrayed spouse wants the wandering spouse to have sex with them as a way of confirming to the BS that they are still physcially attractive to the WS. Often the need for this close and frequent contact is overwhelming for the BS and they can not seem to get enough. It is the need to prove oneself as still being desired though, and has little to do with proving they are even close to healing.

 

For the WS it can be several things. Sometimes it is because they have realized that they came very close to losing their S and they want to placate them and make them feel loved. For others, they are dealing with anxiety and anger at losing their Other and if they have been the one who was dumped, it can be a way of proving their own sexual/physical worthiness. A kind of, "yeah? well she/he still wants me! see what you are missing!". For WSs who have chosen to let go of the Other because they simply did not have the ability to really make a choice, Hysterical Bonding rarely takes place. As they tend to become apathetic, towards everyone.

 

Hysterical bonding can take place between strangers as well... if the situation is life threatening, or percieved as such.

 

It is not an indicator of a return to love. Though in a couple that chooses to heal, it can be a jumping off point.

[White Flower]

I am confused by everyone thinking that Hysterical Bonding indicates that a relationship is on the mend. It is simply an affirmation of life.. what i mean by that is that people in highly stressful situations will "hysterically bond" with whomever happens to be closest.

 

Take for example people living in New York during 9/11. In the immediate aftermath there were a lot of relationships in which hysterical bonding took place. People called up exs and reconnected at least physically for awhile. Rescue workers left long term spouses and started new relationships with people they met during the crisis. Others had lots of "I could have died" sex with their own spouse.

 

It is also seen in couples who lose a child. It seems odd to someone on the outside that a couple suffering from such a tragedy will often have sex a lot in the days and weeks following that loss. It has less to do with actual love or respect and much more to do with wanting to feel alive again. To fill the void they are feeling. I know this one from first hand experience.

 

It also is quite frequently seen in dying patients and their fixation on their doctor or nurse. Not that they ever actually have sex, but the dying person sometimes "fall for" their caretaker. Simply as a way to still feel alive.

 

It is all still the same, all still in the category of "hysterical bonding".

 

In the case of an affair, the betrayed spouse wants the wandering spouse to have sex with them as a way of confirming to the BS that they are still physcially attractive to the WS. Often the need for this close and frequent contact is overwhelming for the BS and they can not seem to get enough. It is the need to prove oneself as still being desired though, and has little to do with proving they are even close to healing.

 

For the WS it can be several things. Sometimes it is because they have realized that they came very close to losing their S and they want to placate them and make them feel loved. For others, they are dealing with anxiety and anger at losing their Other and if they have been the one who was dumped, it can be a way of proving their own sexual/physical worthiness. A kind of, "yeah? well she/he still wants me! see what you are missing!". For WSs who have chosen to let go of the Other because they simply did not have the ability to really make a choice, Hysterical Bonding rarely takes place. As they tend to become apathetic, towards everyone.

 

Hysterical bonding can take place between strangers as well... if the situation is life threatening, or percieved as such.

 

It is not an indicator of a return to love. Though in a couple that chooses to heal, it can be a jumping off point.

All of your examples are correct FA, there are many reasons for HB and not just for couples overcoming an A. The point I was making is that the MP who claims he had HB with his BW now has a perception of that act. He may very well feel that was his HB was a jumping off point as he relates that to the OW.

 

I know my guy was approached by his W and he believes she feels it was HB. He said for him it was the same as being alone. I won't say the words that sound degrading because that is not my point on the subject. It was her hope and perception that the act affirmed their R and their bond while to him it was just as meaningless as it had been for years. He said he had to know, so participated, and it only confirmed what he'd felt all along: He felt nothing for her.

 

But if IMTK's guy DID feel a connectinon to his W and the bonding was just as hysterical to him then that means something to him. If it did, my question to her was how did she overcome that as the OW?

[awkward]

Or she has to realize what she is dealing with: a split self who is going to continue this pattern until he solves his inner issues. In that way IMTK can be prepared the next time he flip-flops and not take it personally.

 

Would this be an option for you, IMTK? Considering you both are in counseling actually doing something about your own issues.

 

It is like being the wife of an alcoholic learning to detach yourself from his drinking bouts.

 

This guy is going to continue to jerk IMTK around until she stops it. I don't see how she can prepare herself for his sick games. He told her he wanted his wife dead so he can be with her. I believe IMTK would find a happier place if she could muster the strength to stay away from this man. From what she has described, he is a horribly sick man.

 

And from her responses in this thread, I don't think she is done yet. If she goes back there will be a 7th time. IMO this situation is dangerous to her emotional well-being.

[OWoman]

-------------------

 

To clarify White Flower .. I had thought that if a MM is in counseling .. or seeking God by going to church - I would think that either of these routes would probably lead him back to his wife..

 

Counselling helped my H gain the strength to leave his xW. IC is about what's best for THAT INDIVIDUAL, not about how to repair the M.

[OWoman]

IMTK - what is your ideal outcome, here? What are you hoping will happen at the end of all of this?

[califnan]

Counselling helped my H gain the strength to leave his xW. IC is about what's best for THAT INDIVIDUAL, not about how to repair the M.

 

-----------------------

 

"What's best for that individual" .. The MM often regrets leaving his wife, once married to the OW ..

[Fallen Angel]

-----------------------

 

"What's best for that individual" .. The MM often regrets leaving his wife, once married to the OW ..

 

And you are basing this on what? Your own personal experience in the matter? research that you can share with the rest of us? What is your basis for this claim?

 

My mother was OW to her now husband for a very long time, when his children were grown, he felt he had lived up to his obligations, divorced his then wife, and never looked back. He and my mother have been happily married for more than 25 years now. They are as in love today as they ever were, and I am sure were you to ask him he would say he has not regretted a minute of it.

 

I also have some friends that are a couple born of an affair. They both left their respective spouses and got married almost before the ink was dry on their divorce papers.. they are married now for just over a year, and he says his only mistake was taking so long in leaving his marriage, because of the time he missed with the love of his life, his now wife and former affair partner.

 

So, what examples do you have that offer proof that MM "often" regret leaving their first wife after marriage to their fOW?

[jennie-jennie]

This guy is going to continue to jerk IMTK around until she stops it. I don't see how she can prepare herself for his sick games. He told her he wanted his wife dead so he can be with her. I believe IMTK would find a happier place if she could muster the strength to stay away from this man. From what she has described, he is a horribly sick man.

 

And from her responses in this thread, I don't think she is done yet. If she goes back there will be a 7th time. IMO this situation is dangerous to her emotional well-being.

 

"... he is a horribly sick man." Awkward, I don't think we can draw conclusions like that. IMTK obviously is in love with her MM, so he must have some good qualities. I would think he probably is pretty much a regular guy with severe flip-flopping issues.

 

"He told her he wanted his wife dead so he can be with her." In the beginning of our relationship my MM said something like: "We are not going to end up together, you and I, unless a tragedy happens." My MM did not mean he wanted a tragedy to happen, he was talking about the unlikelihood of us ending up together. How do we know exactly how IMTK's MM expressed himself and what he meant? I am sure he does not and never did want his wife dead.

 

What I see is that this flip-flopping has been going on for a long time and IMTK is getting hurt. She then has three options in my opinion:

- ending the relationship

- staying in the relationship continuing as is

- staying in the relationship and doing something about it, ie changing what she can change: herself.

 

LS should not only be the place IMTK comes running to when chaos hits, it should be a continuing support throughout the extramarital relationship for as long as it lasts.

 

If the bold in the post above is true, that IMTK is not done yet, then we need to help her where she is at.

[whichwayisup]

"... he is a horribly sick man." Awkward, I don't think we can draw conclusions like that.

 

Actually we can. Go back and re-read K's older threads and the stuff her MM has pulled on her. She, herself even said he was SICK and evil.

[awkward]

"... he is a horribly sick man." Awkward, I don't think we can draw conclusions like that. IMTK obviously is in love with her MM, so he must have some good qualities. I would think he probably is pretty much a regular guy with severe flip-flopping issues.

 

"He told her he wanted his wife dead so he can be with her." In the beginning of our relationship my MM said something like: "We are not going to end up together, you and I, unless a tragedy happens." My MM did not mean he wanted a tragedy to happen, he was talking about the unlikelihood of us ending up together. How do we know exactly how IMTK's MM expressed himself and what he meant? I am sure he does not and never did want his wife dead.

 

I'm sure he does have some good qualities. I'm speaking of the qualities that are causing IMTK so much pain. I'm comfortable with drawing the conclusion that he is a horribly sick man from what she has posted. Of course I understand that everything she posted might not be factual because she is drawing inferences from him, but her own 'truth' is quite painful. He hurts her.

 

I didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that MM's tragedy equaled a dead wife. I asked her what he meant. She stated that he meant his wife dead. Whether he meant it or not, that is clearly what he wanted IMTK to believe.

 

What I see is that this flip-flopping has been going on for a long time and IMTK is getting hurt. She then has three options in my opinion:

- ending the relationship

- staying in the relationship continuing as is

- staying in the relationship and doing something about it, ie changing what she can change: herself.

 

LS should not only be the place IMTK comes running to when chaos hits, it should be a continuing support throughout the extramarital relationship for as long as it lasts.

 

I agree it's been going on far too long and she is hurt. I also agree with those options. However, I disagree that the 3rd choice would be a healthy one for her. IMTK is not happy with her affair. She can change herself but she can't change MM. He is still going to be the man she describes him to be. His change is going to take time and a lot of help.

 

I also agree that LS should not be the only place for her support. IMTK stated that she is in counseling. I was going to suggest maybe an emergency counseling session, even if only via telephone, if she is still in the emotional state she was in when she first posted.

 

If the bold in the post above is true, that IMTK is not done yet, then we need to help her where she is at.

 

Agreed. But I want to provide support to her that I think will be good for her emotional well-being. What I consider healthy. I'm not dismissing your opinion that she can try to become a happy other woman. I just don't agree with it. I don't think IMTK ever wanted to be the other woman. She wants MM to be with her and her only.

 

It appears that we both agree on a lot of things and disagree on what would be the healthiest choice for IMTK. It's good that there are a lot of different opinions around here and no matter what choice she makes she will continue to get support here.

[jennie-jennie]

Actually we can. Go back and re-read K's older threads and the stuff her MM has pulled on her. She, herself even said he was SICK and evil.

 

We say a lot of things when a guy leaves us, especially in the way that IMTK's MM did. That is not proof enough for me. If she said that during one of their good periods, then I would consider it.

 

Her post below does not sound like she thinks he is "sick and evil". I have read her old threads by the way.

 

I think you're right, he does have the worst case of flip-flopping! I do love him. I love the man he is when he's with me, but not the confused and apparently self- centered man who thinks it appropriate to text me to dump me yet again.

 

He is in counseling, although how much it is helping I have no idea. I am in counseling, too. Next week's session should be a good one

[pureinheart]

Or she has to realize what she is dealing with: a split self who is going to continue this pattern until he solves his inner issues. In that way IMTK can be prepared the next time he flip-flops and not take it personally.

 

Would this be an option for you, IMTK? Considering you both are in counseling actually doing something about your own issues.

 

It is like being the wife of an alcoholic learning to detach yourself from his drinking bouts.

 

This is how I was able to forgive exDM...he didnot set out one day and say..."gee I think I will screw this one or that one over"...it was never intentional, he is just confused, so I have detached my heart and leaving it open for another that is not so confused (that is once I am ready).

[whichwayisup]

Agree to disagree JJ. You see things one way about K's MM and I see things another way.

 

Bottomline is, this guy is NOT really leaving his wife and divorcing her. He wants an affair and knows how to push K's buttons, and knows her weaknesses. After all that's been said and done, each of them have their own issues and reasons as to why the A has started up again.

 

I just can see that K is nowhere near her 'enough is enough' phase. And, I can pretty much guarantee it won't be long before he does something again and she'll be very hurt..Again.

 

This A is NOT good for her and it's done ALOT of emotional damage to her. Isn't she the one who ended up in the hospital after he ended it last time?

[awkward]

This A is NOT good for her and it's done ALOT of emotional damage to her. Isn't she the one who ended up in the hospital after he ended it last time?

 

I don't think it was last time, I think it was time #4. But yes, she ended up in an inpatient psych unit for 3 nights a month and a half ago.

[whichwayisup]

I don't think it was last time, I think it was time #4. But yes, she ended up in an inpatient psych unit for 3 nights a month and a half ago.

 

Enough said. Unhealthy situation for her to be in. And it's not going to change unless she ends it once and for all.

[pureinheart]

All of your examples are correct FA, there are many reasons for HB and not just for couples overcoming an A. The point I was making is that the MP who claims he had HB with his BW now has a perception of that act. He may very well feel that was his HB was a jumping off point as he relates that to the OW.

 

I know my guy was approached by his W and he believes she feels it was HB. He said for him it was the same as being alone. I won't say the words that sound degrading because that is not my point on the subject. It was her hope and perception that the act affirmed their R and their bond while to him it was just as meaningless as it had been for years. He said he had to know, so participated, and it only confirmed what he'd felt all along: He felt nothing for her.

 

But if IMTK's guy DID feel a connectinon to his W and the bonding was just as hysterical to him then that means something to him. If it did, my question to her was how did she overcome that as the OW?

 

Is this the same thing as "Traumatic Bonding"?

[I Miss the Kiss]

Hi everyone, I have been reading each and every reply to my post, and I am just too tired to respond to each one individually at this point. But I do thank all of you for your thoughts. A lot of it makes perfect sense and I need to hear it.

 

I'm just going to ramble here... If I were to be 100% honest, I can say that I am not at the enough-is-enough phase. I wish like h*ll I was. I know this because a riend told me on Friday when I got the text that I should IMMEDIATELY go change my own cell # in case he ever tries to text or call again. My response was that MM changed his number the last time he did this to me and he chanaged it again this time, so SURELY he won't be contacting me again. SURELY he means it this time and is truly going to work on his M like he keeps telling me every time this happens. I keep thinking there is NO WAY he will come calling again.

 

So the fact that I won't make a simple call to change my number tells me I am not there yet... I'm not ready to cut all ties. I want it to be HIM who doesn't contact, but I want to know if he does try. I can't stand not knowing if he truly misses me or not, as sick as that is. And I do know how sick that is...

 

In a nutshell, I am crazy in love with this man beyond my comprehension, and I believe in my heart of hearts that he feels the same. We never argue, we are never rude or disrespectful, we laugh, we step out of the box both sexually and just in daily life. We understand each other, we are patient with each other, and we still feel weak at the sound of each other's voice after a year.

 

BUT... those are the things I love about the man I know. He has another side to him, the side that breaks my heart over and over, the side that has no problem SHATTERING my soul with a single text. And my bet is that his W is thanking her higher power that he has AGAIN decided to "work on the M"... only this time she has a little more information... I called her.

 

Ok, well I "voice mailed" her. I called into our cell provider (we are on the same one) and did a backdoor voicemail without calling. I basically told her that this past Sunday night on his way back through my state after a semi business excursion down there with his best friend, he (all of this was his idea completely) made arrangements for his best friend to drop him off in my city on the way through town. MM spent the night with me and rented a one-way car rental (expensive!) to drive to his hometown the next day. THAT is how bad he wanted to see be (or have sex, however you want to look at it rationally).

 

So yes, I lost my mind and I told her this. I told her he had been with me a mere 4 days prior, proclaiming his deep love for me, so much so that he told me exactly this: "XXXX, I love you in a Bible kind of way... the way a man SHOULD love his wife. We are emitonally bonded, free and open, and intimate in every way and every part of our life."

 

I told her that, too.

 

I told her EVERYTHING, and I told her she would never hear from me again, which she will not. I have never, ever called her in a year's time. I have never wanted to. I have PROTECTED MM each and every time he has broken my soul. But this time he just pushed me too far, and I let it all out.

 

So I have no idea what he is dealing with now. None whatsoever. She could be in completel denial, she could be in "protect"mode where she wants him even more. But as of friday he was still not living with her after 2 months since the last D-day. I have no idea if she will let him back now. And I am trying not to care.

 

Someone asked me in a reply what my ideal outcome is. Well, right at this very moment: MM realizing he wants to follow through with his promises to me, and we would be in counseling together from the starting line. But I know this is not likely, and even if it were to happen, it is not healthy. If he comes to me now, I am second choice. Plain and simple.

 

His kids' spring break is in two weeks. He had told his W he was not going, she was going to go ahead and go with MM's family, etc. I know he was freaked about not going for his kids' sake. I believe this is a large part of his latest breakdown, paired with his son having a hard time with Mm not living at home for the last 2 months.

 

MM's W had seen an attorney last week and had asked their accountant for their tax returns. She had told hime she was "done" with him. I believe the reailty of her possibly filing for D hit him hard. And I drew the short straw.

 

So that's it for now. Keep the replies coming. I value each and every one, whether I want to hear it or not. And for those who wondered, yes this truly is D-day #7. She has taken him back on some level each time, and so have I. Its like when he gets too comfortable with me and she pushes him away, he goes back to her. A couple of weeks later, after reality sets back in, he comes looking for me.

 

I can't imagine in any way that he will ever contact me again. I really can't.

 

IMTK

[I Miss the Kiss]

I don't think it was last time, I think it was time #4. But yes, she ended up in an inpatient psych unit for 3 nights a month and a half ago.

 

I forgot to address the hospital issue in my last post. yes, it was the very last time at the end of January that I was inpatient for 3 days. MM knows this happened but has never really asked me about it in detail (too shameful, maybe?)

[I Miss the Kiss]

This is how I was able to forgive exDM...he didnot set out one day and say..."gee I think I will screw this one or that one over"...it was never intentional, he is just confused, so I have detached my heart and leaving it open for another that is not so confused (that is once I am ready).

 

This is where I am with this. Although his way of 'ending" it is despicable, I don't think he truly meant to hurt me. But he did, in the worst way possible. I can't think of a more cowardly way to break it off with someone you supposedly love so much.

 

I believe my MM is confused on how to have the best of both: Not upset his kids and have me at the same time. Not gonna happen

[silverfish]

I don't think it was last time, I think it was time #4. But yes, she ended up in an inpatient psych unit for 3 nights a month and a half ago.

 

I remember reading about this a few months ago, and I understand about the traumatic bonding / hysterical bonding thing. Just seems that this man is doing this with both his W and the OP, and he's the common demonitor in both situations.

 

He needs to be gone from both their lives, he offers no support and sucks the life from the women he supposedly loves, both who have children?

 

Sorry OP but I find this to be a person who needs to be starved of attention, so we can see what sort of specimen he turns out to be. I think you need to be on your own and let go of him, until he's at least able to give you something even if it's only closure...tbh though I doubt he'll even give you that

[I Miss the Kiss]

Is this the same thing as "Traumatic Bonding"?

 

Unless I just blocked it out, I truly don't recall any hysterical bonding with MM and his BS. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I was never made aware. I do know that the last D-day she not only didn't sleep with him, she wouldn't let him move home until he worked on himself. And exactly two weeks later he texted me and off we went again for the last two months.

[silverfish]

Unless I just blocked it out, I truly don't recall any hysterical bonding with MM and his BS. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I was never made aware. I do know that the last D-day she not only didn't sleep with him, she wouldn't let him move home until he worked on himself. And exactly two weeks later he texted me and off we went again for the last two months.

 

What about your H then IMTK? Sorry I know its not your first post here but if I remember you have kids and your H knew about your A? Are you still together? Sorry from your posts it just seems like theres nothing else in your life but this MM and his W and little mention of your own life, which I find a little sad because it seems like they are all less important in the whole scenario.

 

It probably isn't true but that's how it comes across...as someone who has read you posts I could probably write a few more sentences about your MM than about you, your kids, your H, your job, family, life, personality....really anything at all....it's all about him. I find that very sad as you sound much more interesting than your MM who doesnt amount to much from what you've said.

[califnan]

Hi everyone, I have been reading each

 

In a nutshell, I am crazy in love with this man beyond my comprehension, and I believe in my heart of hearts that he feels the same.

 

MM's W had seen an attorney last week and had asked their accountant for their tax returns. She had told hime she was "done" with him. I believe the reailty of her possibly filing for D hit him hard. And I drew the short straw.

 

 

 

IMTK

----------------------

Hello I Missed The Kiss .. Thank you for the update ..

 

I did have to laugh when you mentioned attorney, accountant, Tax Returns ... that'll do it everytime .. ha

 

I know you must have reached the pressure point in order to call his wife.

 

I wish you the best ... We will continue to hash it out on here - with or without you ... Take Care of yourself !

[MizzBlue72]

IMTK - it sounds like the MM doesn't know what he wants. He is torn.

As hard as this may be, try the NC again. Ask your IC and see what they think.

If you keep letting him do this to you - he will, and you will continue to hurt.

I know how much you love him (from your posts) but until he figures out exactly what he wants and tells you he is 'all in' with you - this can keep happening - and that is too hard to deal with.

Especially with you being in patient for 3 days.

I've been in the same place you were, different circumstances. It feels like a part of you dies each time. Take the control back. It's time to live for YOU and let him figure out everything else.

THEN and only then when he has figured out what he wants can you have a relationship.

Good luck hon.

[I Miss the Kiss]

What about your H then IMTK? Sorry I know its not your first post here but if I remember you have kids and your H knew about your A? Are you still together? Sorry from your posts it just seems like theres nothing else in your life but this MM and his W and little mention of your own life, which I find a little sad because it seems like they are all less important in the whole scenario.

 

It probably isn't true but that's how it comes across...as someone who has read you posts I could probably write a few more sentences about your MM than about you, your kids, your H, your job, family, life, personality....really anything at all....it's all about him. I find that very sad as you sound much more interesting than your MM who doesnt amount to much from what you've said.

 

My H and I are divorcing. It will be final very soon. I do have my girsl with me a lot as H and I share 50/50 custody of them now. My girls and I have been decorating my/our apartment and really happy as a little family. My H is struggling quite a bit, but please remember he was abusive to me and was arrested for domestic battery when I finally left the home.

 

I AM interesting! I have hust forgotten how to share that with anyone but MM. He and I bring out the best of each other's personality. As of now I can't imagine ever finding that kind of relationship again. He just rocks my world in every way... his smile, his patience, his gentle soul. Then there's the dark side