Way too young to be in sexless marriage...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I think you're misinterpreting my tone. My "what would you suggest I do?" was meant to be an actual question to be answered with new ideas I haven't considered, not a rhetorical defense statement.

 

on counseling? Buy her a book on sexuality? As Mem11363 says, be somewhat aloof and not so giving? How about just telling her you are unhappy?

 

You wrote her and she turned it on you and you have run and hidden instead of pushing the point.

 

How could you go on a cruise alone and be miserable? How about your Anniversary evening? She has manipulated you in to this lifestyle and you have allowed it to happen.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Why did you bother posting???? Since the first post, where we saw and read the pain, you've backtracked and are now making excuses and ready to live with this.

 

By the way, I'm glad I found this online resource and appreciate the advice I've received so far. I hear what you're saying and I definitely feel like y'all have given me extra courage to change things.

[Spooky84]

I guess you really have to ask yourself if you want to sit on the sidelines and watch other people live the kind of life you want, or join the game in progress.

 

It isn't a noble act to spend the rest of your life with someone that isn't capable of fulfilling your needs. You aren't doing them or yourself a service by sticking it out if it can't be fixed.

 

Kate sounds like a great mother, but she doesn't sound any happier than you are at the moment.

 

Are you willing to invest in a sexless marriage for the rest of your life?

 

Take the steps necessary to try and work this out. Communicate how you truly feel and suggest counselling. Counselling may lead you two to a amicable separation, who knows?

 

Don't complicate things with an affair. Sort out your marriage and explore if it's worth saving- but let her participate and contribute to the process, because she deserves to be an active participant in this.

 

The two of you don't sound like you have a marriage, it sounds more like an arrangement, and that is no way to spend the rest of your days, not for either of you.

 

100% spot on...excellent advice.

[aerogurl87]

I've read this whole thread and I'm gonna be honest, She's Not InLove w/Me has given you the best advice so far. Try to work it out before you leave.

[mem11363]

Lets start with my initial comments which were about this idea that she is never wrong and never apologizes. THAT is a conversation I would have. I would do it when I was calm - and I would start by getting her to confirm that she doesn't apologize - and doesn't admit she is wrong. And I would ask her why she does that. Because I do think that makes for a very tough environment.

 

Before dealing with sex I would address love - having fun together - and being kind to each other.

 

Massages are great and should be much longer than 5 minutes. They should be given and received. You guys need to start touching each other nicely - a lot and YES - she needs to learn to at minimum see sex as a way of pleasing you but in general you two need to learn to have real conversations about real stuff - important stuff.

 

And she can be hurt about a long long ago comment about attractiveness but she does NOT get to hold you hostage with that comment open ended.

 

 

 

What you suggest me doing? Treat her badly because she treats me that way? That sounds like it'd make things worse.

 

For example, last night she showed me no love again, but asked for a shoulder massage because she said she had a hard day and carried some heavy stuff. So I sat behind her and rubbed her shoulders for 5 mins or so. Would you have handled this differently? How so?

 

Saying "if you don't start giving me good sex, I'm not going to do the dishes" sounds strange to me. I don't want to blackmail my wife into sex, and our sex is so far removed from what I want honestly I don't think it's possible she'll ever get there. Improve a little, yea, that's possible. But do I think she can ever satisfy me completely? Not really. But I don't think much improvement will be made until she gets beyond her feeling that sex is dirty, which I think is the case, and would probably take counseling to sort out.

 

But maybe I don't need complete sexual satisfaction to be happy. If she would just make some effort and improve moderately, I think that could make me happy and feel loved by her efforts. I was thinking an approach like "I love you and care for you, but I'm not happy. And if you love me, then you should want to show that love to me and try to satisfy me through affection and sex" might be the better course than your ultra tough love strategy. But I am listening and open to a new way of thinking.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Lets start with my initial comments which were about this idea that she is never wrong and never apologizes. THAT is a conversation I would have. I would do it when I was calm - and I would start by getting her to confirm that she doesn't apologize - and doesn't admit she is wrong. And I would ask her why she does that. Because I do think that makes for a very tough environment.

 

Before dealing with sex I would address love - having fun together - and being kind to each other.

 

Massages are great and should be much longer than 5 minutes. They should be given and received. You guys need to start touching each other nicely - a lot and YES - she needs to learn to at minimum see sex as a way of pleasing you but in general you two need to learn to have real conversations about real stuff - important stuff.

 

And she can be hurt about a long long ago comment about attractiveness but she does NOT get to hold you hostage with that comment open ended.

 

Thanks, I'm glad we're getting back on track here rather than arguing about my excuses. I agree that for now I should probably not bring up my sex grievances with her, and instead try to sort out our other issues like enjoying each other's company, showing basic affection, and being able to communicate our feelings openly. Sex is such a hot-button topic with her that she can't really talk about it at all with me right now.

[mem11363]

Two things that REALLY matter.

 

1. Find at least one activity that SHE really likes and you are at least ok with. And start blocking out time and doing it. And make it fun for her - be playful - not kidding here. Any time I play a game with wife - the purpose of the game is for us to have fun but for sure I make CERTAIN she has fun. And if need be - be the man about this - and by that I mean be assertive. You can tell her - we can play whatever game you want - a sport - cards a board game. But you have to pick something - and you need to at least make the effort to have fun and let me make it fun for you. We need to spend time together because THAT is how you strengthen a marriage. And - this is where being assertive is really critical - if she says she is tired - you nicely tell her that starting - tomorrow new schedule - less tv and more sleep so you have time and energy for each other. And that TV is not an option if it gets in between you and her and your marriage.

 

2. Nicely tell her that affection is not optional either. Hugs daily - the best one is when my wife is at the sink in the kitchen - when I come up from behind she literally melts back into me. But I DO NOT GRIND against her. This is the wrap around full body length touching hug that says "I am here to protect you - to love you" - and sometimes she also gets the deep voiced "what can I do for you baby?" in tandem. And whatever she asks - I cheerfully do.

 

As for massages - they are a big deal. And you need to approach this in the same firm - no nonsense manner as the other items.

 

Touch in marriage is not optional - you are going to give as good as you get. If she is "too tired" to agree to regular massages then other stuff needs to get cut out of the schedule.

 

Don't do this all in one day - or in one week.

 

Step 1 is game routine and some good light playful banter and daily hugs with her. When she looks nice tell her she looks nice. Don't make it sexual - and don't overdo it. Just say it in context and don't expect any verbal response but READ her body language. Soon as you are in a good game/talking spending time rythm and she is NOT resisting it and / or complaining about it

 

Step 2 is massage schedule - and yes make it start happening a LOT. If you cannot get her to enjoy giving receiving a non sexual massage you will NEVER have a sex life.

 

Step 3 WHEN you are in a good overall routine is very simply this. You explain that regular sex is a must in a healthy marriage and that she needs to talk about how she feels about that and what is agreeable to her. BUT if you let it turn into a situation where she does the "I just don't like it" you need to nicely convey a couple key points:

- She needs to love you enough to want to please YOU for the marriage to succeed. If that means that (once a week/pick your frequency) she learns to get pleasure from giving you pleasure - then that is what she needs to learn to do.

- She needs to love HERSELF enough to teach you how to make sex feel better for her.

 

Let me give you a non-sexual dynamic that we have. I LOVE to give my wife a nice long full body massage. I can happily do that for over an hour. Thing is she is self conscious about her legs if she hasn't shaved. So earlier in the day I will say - shower - shave tonight so I may enjoy the pleasure of a long massage (the fact I am the one giving it is implied in the shave request). Because even though I couldn't care less if she shaves or not - SHE can only relax and fully enjoy it if she has shaved. So you need to get your wife to open up - but the only way that will happen is if you get her in the habit of doing what you say for the good of your marriage and if you have shown a track record of being right.

 

But - expect some pain here - she may try the whole - you only did all this other stuff to get laid.

 

And you need to be ready, willing and able to explain you did all the other stuff to have a strong marriage and sex is part of a healthy marriage. And if she is convinced otherwise - that is not acceptable to you.

 

PS: If she perceives you as beta - at a hardwired level - she mainly wants you around solely for what you can do for her. If you have a long standing pattern of that - it may not be breakable without you doing some fairly extreme things like - letting other women flirt with you in front of her - moving out - etc.

 

 

 

Thanks, I'm glad we're getting back on track here rather than arguing about my excuses. I agree that for now I should probably not bring up my sex grievances with her, and instead try to sort out our other issues like enjoying each other's company, showing basic affection, and being able to communicate our feelings openly. Sex is such a hot-button topic with her that she can't really talk about it at all with me right now.

[goatee]

That was a pretty one-sided description. I get the sense if she told her side of the story you would feel like the worst person on earth too.

 

Make her feel wanted, **** her like you mean it (not kidding). Shy people tend to look for positive feedback and enforce their shyness with negative feedback. So you're having sex with her but not liking it.. maybe she's not trying or w/e but she can tell it's a chore for you, eventually she just lays there and "gets it over with".

 

all i'm saying is you're not trying hard enough.

[Married_and_Lonely]

That was a pretty one-sided description. I get the sense if she told her side of the story you would feel like the worst person on earth too.

 

Make her feel wanted, **** her like you mean it (not kidding). Shy people tend to look for positive feedback and enforce their shyness with negative feedback. So you're having sex with her but not liking it.. maybe she's not trying or w/e but she can tell it's a chore for you, eventually she just lays there and "gets it over with".

 

all i'm saying is you're not trying hard enough.

 

I don't think you could be more off base. Did you read the first post? She said she's never liked it, and her performance has been the same since our wedding night, it just took me a long time to say something about it.

[Married_and_Lonely]

PS: If she perceives you as beta - at a hardwired level - she mainly wants you around solely for what you can do for her. If you have a long standing pattern of that - it may not be breakable without you doing some fairly extreme things like - letting other women flirt with you in front of her - moving out - etc.

 

Thanks for all your input. I've already read your post twice and there's alot wisdom there it seems.

 

Yes, I think I am beta somewhat because of our personalities. I've always been a peace keeper that likes to avoid conflict, puts others needs above my own, etc. As a teenager I did everything I could to please my parents and meet their expectations of me. She's a bit more selfish, likes making the decisions, insists on holding the TV remote, chooses where we go out to eat most of the time, etc. Her parents still talk about how difficult she was during her teenage years, fighting and crying all the time. I just defer most decisions to her because I don't care enough to fight about it. If something is important enough to me, I'll fight for it, but it's never an easy battle to win.

 

Also, I've had a bad string of luck these past few years with various health problems. One led to invasive surgery 2 years ago that involved a difficult recovery. I didn't feel she was very supportive during that time and I grew resentful. I feel she wants me to be like her father, a man who once went home during lunch to pass a kidney stone before returning to work for the rest of the day. She told me "you can't have that surgery again because it was so hard for me taking care of the kids alone." To which I sarcastially replied, "I'm SO sorry my surgery and pain was an inconvenience for you; I'll cancel my plans to go through that again!" She says I tell her too much about my pains and she wishes I keep more of it to myself. So all this to say, I think she looks down on me as a weak man because I haven't been as healthy and active as I was when we got married.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Married_and_Lonely

[She's_NotInLove_w/Me]

You're still wayyyy to bitter and resentful to even begin to think about getting what you need...

 

I hate to say it, but why not just take the easy way out? Then you can fail to see your faults in your future relationships also and eventually feel even worse about the situations you have created...

 

Take a look in the mirror dude, quit your obesession about what she needs to change - change yourself and work on you. "Be are the change we wish to see in your wife!"

 

Give up on sex for a little bit; mem11363 gave you great advice about loving touch without the expectation of reciprocated love (which means sex for you). Non-sexual touch...

 

Once you get to the place where you love respect and care for her no matter what, the sex will come back naturally. First step is to release the resentment, hurt and negative. You are way too focused on her wrongs to possibly begin to heal and improve your marriage.

 

I read your story and many many parts of it could be written by me... I am wishing you the best. Please work on yourself, if for nothing else, so that once you are alone you are a better person for your next relationship.

 

Please follow me that I am not trying to say she is without fault or that you are too blame. But release the need to be validated in regards to her shortcomings. Simply know that the woman you fell in love with is there if you wish to reclaim her. It will take time, patience, and most of all a strong will to forgive and move forward in a positive fashion no matter what she gives back...

 

Good luck again!

[goatee]

I don't think you could be more off base. Did you read the first post? She said she's never liked it, and her performance has been the same since our wedding night, it just took me a long time to say something about it.

 

not to beat a dead horse but you don't seem to understand. She has only had sex with you. You are her only frame of reference.. in otherwords it could be you. Harsh but still.. it needs to be said.

 

You also mentioned he's never happy around you, yet when she goes out with her friends or kids she's happy. It's not like she's incapable of enjoying sex or be happy and touchy feely. All i'm saying is probably has soemthing to do with you specifically.

[Married_and_Lonely]

She has only had sex with you. You are her only frame of reference.. in otherwords it could be you. Harsh but still.. it needs to be said.

 

She's never masturbated, never groomed, never watched porn or been interested in toys, not interested in lingerie, won't let me touch or kiss her erotic area, keeps her legs closed some during intercourse, doesn't use her hands at all, has to have the lights out..... but you're right, obviously I'm just a bad lover. I'm guessing you've never had experience with someone like this, so you don't understand. Of course some of this is probably my fault; I didn't say otherwise. I'm not interested in whose fault our bad marriage is; I just want to fix it.

[CarrieT]

She's never masturbated, never groomed, never watched porn or been interested in toys, not interested in lingerie, won't let me touch or kiss her erotic area, keeps her legs closed some during intercourse, doesn't use her hands at all, has to have the lights out.....

 

YIKES! Just yikes! There are some SERIOUS issues going on with her in this case.

 

I'm not interested in whose fault our bad marriage is; I just want to fix it.

 

I'm not sure you can fix this if she doesn't acknowledge that it IS a problem and is interested in changing the way her life is. She might very well be quite content (I won't way happy) with her life, not know there is more to it all.

 

My continued condolences, my friend.

[SarahRose]

This sounds like typical marriage problems like many thousands of other couples.

 

She is tired and overworked from having to deal with the kids and everything else at home.

 

You want more sex and are resentful towards her for not getting it.

 

Since she is the only one you have ever been with, you probably are lousy in bed and have turned her off years ago.

 

I would strongly suggest individual counseling for you. You can't make her go to MC with you so go yourself. You'll get a lot out of it.

 

You sound like you are doing well financially so hire a housekeeper for your wife.

 

Try a sex therapist so you can learn how to be better in bed or get some of those Light her fire books.

 

Stay off the dating sites as that probably ticked her off too when she found out you were having an emotional affair with someone else. I'd be ticked at you too.

 

I really get the impression you aren't trying all that hard anymore cause you think you can do better.

[mem11363]

Are you healthy enough to work out/go to the gym? If so, you really really should start.

 

 

Thanks for all your input. I've already read your post twice and there's alot wisdom there it seems.

 

Yes, I think I am beta somewhat because of our personalities. I've always been a peace keeper that likes to avoid conflict, puts others needs above my own, etc. As a teenager I did everything I could to please my parents and meet their expectations of me. She's a bit more selfish, likes making the decisions, insists on holding the TV remote, chooses where we go out to eat most of the time, etc. Her parents still talk about how difficult she was during her teenage years, fighting and crying all the time. I just defer most decisions to her because I don't care enough to fight about it. If something is important enough to me, I'll fight for it, but it's never an easy battle to win.

 

Also, I've had a bad string of luck these past few years with various health problems. One led to invasive surgery 2 years ago that involved a difficult recovery. I didn't feel she was very supportive during that time and I grew resentful. I feel she wants me to be like her father, a man who once went home during lunch to pass a kidney stone before returning to work for the rest of the day. She told me "you can't have that surgery again because it was so hard for me taking care of the kids alone." To which I sarcastially replied, "I'm SO sorry my surgery and pain was an inconvenience for you; I'll cancel my plans to go through that again!" She says I tell her too much about my pains and she wishes I keep more of it to myself. So all this to say, I think she looks down on me as a weak man because I haven't been as healthy and active as I was when we got married.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Are you healthy enough to work out/go to the gym? If so, you really really should start.

 

Yes, I know. Believe me; I wish I could. I worked out 3-4x per week before all of my health problems started 3 years ago. They actually started though when I injured myself lifting weights at the gym. My abdomen is still strained so I can't lift weights, but I could probably do the elliptical machine.

[Married_and_Lonely]

You want more sex and are resentful towards her for not getting it.

 

Yes, more sex than 5 times a year would be nice.

 

Since she is the only one you have ever been with, you probably are lousy in bed and have turned her off years ago.

 

Before my wife, I fooled around with several other girlfriends and they all seemed to dig it. I think my wife just isn't comfortable enough in her own skin to enjoy what sex has to offer. I think she tolerated fooling around while we were dating because she didn't have the security of a wedding ring and kids to keep me. Regardless, I'll consider studying up on my form and hopefully find something she enjoys.

 

You sound like you are doing well financially so hire a housekeeper for your wife.

 

Stay off the dating sites as that probably ticked her off too when she found out you were having an emotional affair with someone else. I'd be ticked at you too.

 

I really get the impression you aren't trying all that hard anymore cause you think you can do better.

 

We're okay financially, but can't really afford a housekeeper. We chose to buy a big, expensive house that in exchange for those luxuries that we used to have in our old, less expensive house. Yesterday both kids were in preschool from 8am to 2pm, and when I got home last night I pulled weeds in the yard, emptied the dish washer, washed a load of towels, and got on a latter to fix a broken light bulb stuck in the socket. Then after I got the 5 year old to bed, I rubbed my wife's feet for 10 mins. So you really think she has it that bad?!

[CarrieT]

Yesterday both kids were in preschool from 8am to 2pm, and when I got home last night I pulled weeds in the yard, emptied the dish washer, washed a load of towels, and got on a latter to fix a broken light bulb stuck in the socket. Then after I got the 5 year old to bed, I rubbed my wife's feet for 10 mins. So you really think she has it that bad?!

 

What was your wife doing while you were pulling weeds, emptying the dishwasher, doing laundry, and fixing the bulb?

 

I am honestly curious; before starting to engage her sexually, maybe there should be a bridge of doing all these sorts of banal things together = have her come with you to pull weeds and connect with her intellectually and emotionally with this sort of stuff.

[Married_and_Lonely]

She was playing with the kids. They were cute last night. The kids are excited about Easter, so we all took turns hiding plastic easter eggs around the house for the others to find. I hear what you're saying though - when we sweep/mop/vacuum the house we both get into it usually and make a good team.

 

I think I'm coming across too negative on here. My wife and I do enjoy each other's company around the house often and to her it often appears like things are just fine. Although I do plenty of house chores, I don't really mind doing them and I know that just taking care of our 2 kids all day is very emotionally tiring job for her. I just wish we were less like roommates and more like husband/wife with physical/emotional intimacy (not just sex, but also hugs, kissing, hand holding, cuddling, meaningful conversations, etc). I want to feel loved, admired, appreciated, and respected for all those things I do for our family. I want to be told thank you when I do something nice, and sorry when she realizes that she's been in the wrong. I think all of these things are basic ingredients to a healthy relationship, stuff that I do fairly regularly, but I don't feel that she does very often.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Married_and_Lonely

[Married_and_Lonely]

I wanted to report an uptick in my feelings for my wife.. we haven't had the talk yet because we've both been busy, i've been working alot, and my health problems have been nagging me (escuses, I know)...

 

BUT I've noticed lately my wife ("Kate") being very thoughtful a few times lately, actually saying sorry some, showing some life (humor and happiness), and it's made me remember that I do really love my wife (I just miss the happier version of her from early in our marriage), and I do want our marriage to make it through this.

 

Some others were correct in thinking that I was previously leaning to just wanting the easy way out and to find someone else. But I've been working late this whole week (8pm ish), and I've genuinely missed the company of my wife, and my kids of course.

 

I know that until we fix our issues I'll have highs and lows and I'll probably fall back into my feelings that started this thread, but at least I'm still having the highs. I think that's a good sign... anyways, back to work so I can get home to my family!

[stella79]

Hi Married and Lonely..Your story struck me, and for a moment I honestly thought you were my XMM..I had an Affair with a MM, it ended very badly.

 

His entire situation was just like yours.. Married young, wife not interested in sex, he did most of the work, she never complimented him and so on. He described his marriage as a good parenting partnership..He said there was no love or affection...We began an A after he confided all his problems to me, (we are co-workers) and at the time,we had a good trusting friendship. We clicked so well, it was fireworks. He never knew sex could be so good. He was himself and I gave him the love he was lacking. Our A went on for over 6 months. He claimed he was in love with me. I sat and waited like a fool for him to leave his M. But he wouldn't leave the kids.

 

To make a long story short...She found out and **** hit the fan, he dropped me. Told his wife what was lacking in the M, and they are working on it..now..He was silent about their issues for 10 years, and it took a very hurtful affair for him to see what he truly wanted. I have NC with him, so I don't know what is really going on, but apparently he is trying his hardest to make it work.

 

I guess my point is, if the marriage is really that bad fix it now or get out while you and your kids are young..Unhappiness can lead to affairs. You both deserve to be happy.

 

Choosing a life partner at the age of 21 is not such a good thing. Sounds like you both have grown into completely different people, but have one thing in common and that's your kids security and happiness.

Take care Stella

[Joe Normal]

One possibility is that she is not sexually attracted to you (if she ever was) and thus does not really love you. That may be why she is cold, withholding intimacy, and refusing to tell you what is wrong - she may think that telling the truth would be emotionally devastating for you.

 

If this is the case, then the marriage is doomed.

 

Whatever the reason, her refusal to go with you to marriage counselling is a very bad sign. It appears she is just totally unwilling to put in any effort to improve the marriage - which suggests she doesn't actually want to improve it, she just views it as a lost cause to be stoically endured. If that's the case, the marriage is also doomed.

 

IMO you should do some individual counselling, and then contact a divorce attorney and move out. If she doesn't change her tune within 1-2 months of you moving out, file for divorce.

[Married_and_Lonely]

... strange replies to my latest update, but I get your points... i'm trying to focus on positives for a little while, just to change things up .... it's a nice day today in Texas, Spring is here, I've got a beautiful family, and a good job... I feel a little ashamed of complaining so much when I compare my life to those less fortunate and in poorer areas of the world.

[Married_and_Lonely]

His entire situation was just like yours.. Married young, wife not interested in sex, he did most of the work, she never complimented him and so on. He described his marriage as a good parenting partnership..He said there was no love or affection...We began an A after he confided all his problems to me, (we are co-workers)...

 

Stella, it's like you're coming to warn me from the future... falling for a co-worker is definitely a trap I've been able to avoid so far, although your story sounds like a very plausible reality if I'm not careful in the future. Women at work are great temptations because you typically see very different qualities in them than your SAHW. They're smart (although my wife is very smart), confident, dress attractively, putting their best foot forward all of the time because they're at work and not your spouse, etc.. I want to be a good role model for my children, so I'm hoping I never go down that route.