Lunch Topic/Question for OW and BW

[silktricks]

I guess you would argue, then, that if they were marriages in a church or other setting that, in the vows covered sexual fidelity, then yes it would still be unacceptable though society "okays" it.

 

There have been affairs for ages even though the Church has always indicated that it is wrong. The act may be wrong but the social norms may not have it set up as punishable.

 

I obviously don't know what OWL will say to this, but it's not what I meant.

 

I would argue rather, that marriage is a construct of society. If the society does not view sexual fidelity as a cornerstone of marriage, than the marriage vows would probably either not include sexual fidelity as a core concept or would set it as a requirement only during some particular times.

 

Marriage vows in Western society include "forsaking all others". I don't know what marriage vows in other society's may or may not include. But if we're discussing a possible society where roaming is considered normal behavior and is expected, then it would be just plain silly to include that phrase is a marriage promise. In fact, in our mythical society, the act would not be wrong.

 

(In case I'm confusing anyone - this is not my ideal of society or marriage. I'm just playing "let's pretend".)

[BlueeyedJonesy]

i think it really has to do with the person and the strength they have morally or maybe just balls...lol I would like to think if I were in a marriage that was completely disconnected then I would get a damn D. I hate all of the lame excuses I hear everyday and people divorce over petty things, it shouldn't be hard....I think it takes a very headstrong man to stay faithful...and that...i know..is rare but shouldn't that be something we all look for in a life partner? My H has told me on numerous occasions that if he ever cheated on me wether it be a ONS or an actual affair that he couldnt look me in the face and would have to walk away...harp on me all you want for believing it but I admire that kind of strenght in a man.

[NoIDidn't]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I don't know if I'm just repeating someone else or not.

 

I think if all MM cheated and BWs expected it, more and more women would simply not get married.

 

It is denied to be true by some just because they don't think it applies to them, but women are jealous and want to be exclusive in most Rs. We don't like feeling like we are not priority Number One for our primary love interest. And that goes for the OWs too. I doubt any woman would be the OW (accept a rare few as evidenced even in these forums) if they felt that they didn't have the MM's love primarily - whether true or not.

 

A recently divorced friend of mine is from France. Her father cheated with the next door neighbor for more than 15 years. She says that she didn't know, but that her mother had an inkling. I've met and spoken to her mother. This woman didn't like being cheated on. She didn't just sit back and idly accept it either. So there goes that whole "the French don't care" business. Its better stated as "French MEN don't care". She stayed long enough to raise their kids and then divorced him.

 

So, my thought is, if men are all expected to take lovers and women are to just take it, fewer people would actually get married and conversations like this one would become moot.

[Spark1111]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I don't know if I'm just repeating someone else or not.

 

I think if all MM cheated and BWs expected it, more and more women would simply not get married.

 

It is denied to be true by some just because they don't think it applies to them, but women are jealous and want to be exclusive in most Rs. We don't like feeling like we are not priority Number One for our primary love interest. And that goes for the OWs too. I doubt any woman would be the OW (accept a rare few as evidenced even in these forums) if they felt that they didn't have the MM's love primarily - whether true or not.

 

A recently divorced friend of mine is from France. Her father cheated with the next door neighbor for more than 15 years. She says that she didn't know, but that her mother had an inkling. I've met and spoken to her mother. This woman didn't like being cheated on. She didn't just sit back and idly accept it either. So there goes that whole "the French don't care" business. Its better stated as "French MEN don't care". She stayed long enough to raise their kids and then divorced him.

 

So, my thought is, if men are all expected to take lovers and women are to just take it, fewer people would actually get married and conversations like this one would become moot.

 

And as jealous as woman are???? Ninety-five percent will take back a cheating man as long as he is truly remorseful, well...at least initially.

 

Know how many men take back a cheating wife? Far, far less. Maybe in the 50s percentile?

 

So who is more jealous???

[NoIDidn't]

And as jealous as woman are???? Ninety-five percent will take back a cheating man as long as he is truly remorseful, well...at least initially.

 

Know how many men take back a cheating wife? Far, far less. Maybe in the 50s percentile?

 

So who is more jealous???

 

Are you doubting that women are jealous? Or only trying to prove that men are more jealous?

 

I didn't think this thread was about the men, only that they are the ones assumed to be cheating. Regardless, I maintain MO that women are very jealous over the feelings of being prioritized by their mates. Men seem to be more jealous over ownership of the woman's body. Two different jealousies, if you ask me.

[fooled once]

I'm not sure I do either, but I have no proof that it isn't true. I want to believe it isn't true. But what if it is?

 

Proof is my husband.

 

 

He never cheated in his first marriage, he never cheated while dating, and he has not cheated in our marriage. He is a good lucking guy, a wonderful man and anyone would be lucky to have him...but he is mine! So there is proof.

 

As sucky as this is -- my ex is another one who doesn't cheat - trust me, I begged him to find a girlfriend when we were married and he refused

 

My dad is another one.

 

So it is possible, there are men who don't cheat out there.

[Lizzie60]

And as jealous as woman are???? Ninety-five percent will take back a cheating man as long as he is truly remorseful, well...at least initially.

 

Know how many men take back a cheating wife? Far, far less. Maybe in the 50s percentile?

 

So who is more jealous???

 

I totally agree... most women take their cheating H back.. not the men..

 

Just take Tiger, if it would have been his W who had 12-13 lovers.. and he was the laugh of the planet, like his W was... I wonder if he would have taken her back... same with Jessie...

 

Men usually DON'T take their cheating wife back.. they are not as forgiving as women are...

 

It's always been like that.. and I doubt it's going to change soon...

 

And there is still far less women cheating than men... the porn industry has not become a multi-billion industry because of women....

 

Most women cheat because they feel their H is not connecting anymore emotionally... men cheat because they like sexual variety... they don't need the emotional connection women do... so it's way easier for them to cheat..

 

PLUS

 

I should add... that most women take more responsibilities in the household therefore leaving their H more time to wander..

[pureinheart]

All men do not cheat. I have never cheated on a woman in my life and I could if I wanted to. I just don't believe in betraying people. I also know just as many women that cheat as men do. Sadly it is pretty much common these days. This whole deal that men are biologically programmed to cheat is just as an excuse. Women have their own excuses for cheating as well which usually have to do with emotions.

 

 

Thank you.....

[fooled once]

i think it really has to do with the person and the strength they have morally or maybe just balls...lol I would like to think if I were in a marriage that was completely disconnected then I would get a damn D. I hate all of the lame excuses I hear everyday and people divorce over petty things, it shouldn't be hard....I think it takes a very headstrong man to stay faithful...and that...i know..is rare but shouldn't that be something we all look for in a life partner? My H has told me on numerous occasions that if he ever cheated on me wether it be a ONS or an actual affair that he couldnt look me in the face and would have to walk away...harp on me all you want for believing it but I admire that kind of strenght in a man.

 

Great post. I too would be able to take one look at my H and tell if he had broken his vows to me.

 

You are also right that divorce is basically a pretty easy thing to get - I got one and it cost me $500 for the entire thing (besides the $10k I took in debt just to get rid of him, plus I cut his child support in half and packed exactly 1/2 the house FOR him). I made the next 2 years of my life very hard because of what I 'gave' him -- I didn't leave myself enough to live on and I was poorer than dirt poor.

 

But, I chose to end the marriage. I chose to make that decision. I own it and there was no other person in our marriage.

 

IF I should ever decide I wanted to cheat on my H, I know me and know I couldn't do it and look myself in the mirror. It is just who I am.

 

I think too many people are only concerned about themselves and 'their' needs -- not caring who they hurt in the process.

[fooled once]

I totally agree... most women take their cheating H back.. not the men..

 

Just take Tiger, if it would have been his W who had 12-13 lovers.. and he was the laugh of the planet, like his W was... I wonder if he would have taken her back... same with Jessie...

 

Men usually DON'T take their cheating wife back.. they are not as forgiving as women are...

 

It's always been like that.. and I doubt it's going to change soon...

 

And there is still far less women cheating than men... the porn industry has not become a multi-billion industry because of women....

 

Most women cheat because they feel their H is not connecting anymore emotionally... men cheat because they like sexual variety... they don't need the emotional connection women do... so it's way easier for them to cheat..

 

PLUS

 

I should add... that most women take more responsibilities in the household therefore leaving their H more time to wander..

 

How is his wife the laugh of the planet? HE is the laugh of the planet and I believe his numbers are at 18 or 19 women now. But I don't think anyone is laughing at her.... no one I have discussed it with has anything but compassion for her. Most are laughing at him and what an embarassement HE is.

[herenow]

How is his wife the laugh of the planet? HE is the laugh of the planet and I believe his numbers are at 18 or 19 women now. But I don't think anyone is laughing at her.... no one I have discussed it with has anything but compassion for her. Most are laughing at him and what an embarassement HE is.

 

Exactly. What on earth has she done that would make anyone laugh at her?

 

I have read posts on LS saying that a BS should be embarrased that their spouse cheated. I don't get that at all. Maybe angry, hurt, upset, but embarrassed, why? Because they married a cheater? Shouldn't the cheater be the embarrased one?

[Woggle]

Just because many women don't have respect for themselves and choose to stay with a cheater does not mean that men are wrong for dumping cheating women. More women also have exit affairs which explains they get divorced more often.

[White Flower]

Exactly. What on earth has she done that would make anyone laugh at her?

 

I have read posts on LS saying that a BS should be embarrased that their spouse cheated. I don't get that at all. Maybe angry, hurt, upset, but embarrassed, why? Because they married a cheater? Shouldn't the cheater be the embarrased one?

I don't think the embarrassment comes from being the bad guy as the BS. The embarrassment comes from how one is perceived after being cheated on. It isn't right at all, but the BS can often feel ashamed in thinking that if I were prettier or kinder he wouldn't have cheated on me. If I am thinking this, then what are others thinking? And for men, the self-esteem issue could be that everybody knows (or believes) that his penis was too small or he didn't have the prowess it took to please his wife sexually. They are all myths yet they can plague the mind of the person betrayed nonetheless. It is sad, but some BS feel this way.

[Lizzie60]

How is his wife the laugh of the planet? HE is the laugh of the planet and I believe his numbers are at 18 or 19 women now. But I don't think anyone is laughing at her.... no one I have discussed it with has anything but compassion for her. Most are laughing at him and what an embarassement HE is.

 

 

By 'laugh of the planet' I didn't mean that people are laughing at her.. it's a figure of speech per se... it must be sooo humiliating and embarassing to be in her shoes.. all spotlights are on her... and she didn't ask for all this publicity on her personal life..

 

Some people will still blame her somehow..

[NoIDidn't]

Just because many women don't have respect for themselves and choose to stay with a cheater does not mean that men are wrong for dumping cheating women.

 

I don't think its a self-respect issue for the women that stay. In reading these forums, you have to have noticed that they tend to consider more factors than just the cheating or their own feelings.

 

I don't think a W should automatically dump her H for cheating. It really depends on what he did to sustain the cheating, for me. I'm sure "enough" or "too much" is different for every person.

 

I also don't think a H should automatically dump his W for cheating either. I think this has much more to do with the socialization of men thinking that women somehow actually belong to them body and soul, than any level of self-respect.

 

Suppose this thread was about what men would do if it was assumed that all Ws will cheat during their marriage? With all things being equal in society right now and that assumption was made, I think that would truly spell the end of the institution of marriage.

[White Flower]

I don't think its a self-respect issue for the women that stay. In reading these forums, you have to have noticed that they tend to consider more factors than just the cheating or their own feelings.

 

I don't think a W should automatically dump her H for cheating. It really depends on what he did to sustain the cheating, for me. I'm sure "enough" or "too much" is different for every person.

 

I also don't think a H should automatically dump his W for cheating either. I think this has much more to do with the socialization of men thinking that women somehow actually belong to them body and soul, than any level of self-respect.

 

Suppose this thread was about what men would do if it was assumed that all Ws will cheat during their marriage? With all things being equal in society right now and that assumption was made, I think that would truly spell the end of the institution of marriage.

Good post NID. I would also like to add that it could go either way; the institution of M could end OR cheating would just be accepted by men. Afterall, if everyone's W were cheating, nobody would feel any more denigrated than another.

[Owl]

Good post NID. I would also like to add that it could go either way; the institution of M could end OR cheating would just be accepted by men. Afterall, if everyone's W were cheating, nobody would feel any more denigrated than another.

 

Actually, I would say that if the belief is generally all men would cheat, and that most men do cheat...

 

...doesn't that simply negate the concept of marriage as it's based today?

 

If everyone enters a marriage (which for the majority of the world is centered around the concept of fidelity and monogamy) as its defined today...but goes into it with the expectation that their partner (or themselves) won't hold up their end of the bargain (read: vows)...why the heck would anyone ever marry to begin with.

 

Bottom line...nearly everyone enters a marriage today with the EXPECTATION of monogamy and fidelity, both of themselves and their partner.

 

If the beliefmajority of people out there believe that this is a false expectation...why does everyone get married? And why on Earth do SERIAL cheaters re-marry, or marry an affair partner???

[ladydesigner]

If the beliefmajority of people out there believe that this is a false expectation...why does everyone get married? And why on Earth do SERIAL cheaters re-marry, or marry an affair partner???

 

Wow my thoughts EXACTLY that is why this is my ONE and ONLY marriage.

 

The other thought I had was that maybe someone remarries for the money or tax break. That would really only be the reason I would ever remarry.

 

The bolded part is really funny to me:laugh: It makes absolutely no sense at all.

[atlnay]

why does everyone get married? And why on Earth do SERIAL cheaters re-marry, or marry an affair partner???

 

My guess? Finances! Aside from love etc, financially it's in a couple's best interests to marry. Even serial cheaters could to the math and realize filing as a Married couple vs. Single is a hugggggggge benefit...lol

[Woggle]

I don't think it should be assumed that all men cheat. It is just a bs excuse thrown out there by men who want to blame something other than themselves for their behavior. I think that cheating men stay married more often than cheating women because many women have exit affairs which is not the case for men. I don't think either case is a worthy excuse. There is no law requires people to get married so if people don't want to be faithful then don't commit.

[silktricks]

 

And why on Earth do SERIAL cheaters re-marry, or marry an affair partner???

 

That's easy. Most of the time serial cheaters are high on falling in love. They really don't think of themselves as serial cheaters, they think of themselves as disappointed in love. So, they continuously look for the "perfect someone" to fall in love with - never having grown up enough to know that no one is always perfect all of the time.

 

When they get divorced (because most women will fling them out eventually), they will get married again, because they've convinced themselves they have found the "perfect someone".

[White Flower]

Actually, I would say that if the belief is generally all men would cheat, and that most men do cheat...

 

...doesn't that simply negate the concept of marriage as it's based today?

 

If everyone enters a marriage (which for the majority of the world is centered around the concept of fidelity and monogamy) as its defined today...but goes into it with the expectation that their partner (or themselves) won't hold up their end of the bargain (read: vows)...why the heck would anyone ever marry to begin with.

 

Bottom line...nearly everyone enters a marriage today with the EXPECTATION of monogamy and fidelity, both of themselves and their partner.

 

If the beliefmajority of people out there believe that this is a false expectation...why does everyone get married? And why on Earth do SERIAL cheaters re-marry, or marry an affair partner???

I don't disagree with any of it Owl, but the question was asked in a way that all MM cheated and the women M them anyway.

 

An answer to the bolded question could be that after 'looking for love in all the wrong places', perhaps he finally found the 'right' one? Who knows?

[NoIDidn't]

That's easy. Most of the time serial cheaters are high on falling in love. They really don't think of themselves as serial cheaters, they think of themselves as disappointed in love. So, they continuously look for the "perfect someone" to fall in love with - never having grown up enough to know that no one is always perfect all of the time.

 

When they get divorced (because most women will fling them out eventually), they will get married again, because they've convinced themselves they have found the "perfect someone".

 

This might be true of some serial cheats, but not the ones I know.

 

They get married over and over again to cover the dry spells.

 

No. Seriously.

 

Even serial cheats take breaks from cheating - sometimes for years.

 

But they can't be without a woman. They are typically the type of men that want a woman to do the "woman's work" of keeping house for them. So they keep a W around. And, yes, the ones I know married her feeling that she was THE ONE they wanted to grow old with. But knowing that they very much intended to cheat - they just don't intend to grow old with their many OPs.

 

At least this has been my experience with them.

[OWoman]

But they can't be without a woman.

 

A psychologist friend of mine once described it as "looking for the perfect fit" - that idealised R that (often first-born) boys have with their mothers, in their SOs. Because no woman can ever live up to that perfection, they feel legitimised to look elsewhere for the "perfect fit", even while still with a current SO, because being alone is unthinkable for them. They're constantly on the hunt for that perfect one - and sometimes they think they may have found her, only to be disappointed later on when her humanness comes to light.