Spin-off: "The unwritten OW Rule"

[OWoman]

IMO a smart woman (BW or OW) would take the other person's truth as they tell it and then weigh it against objective facts that can be verified.

 

Phoenix, I think this is true more generally too, and not limited to a post-Dday scenario. A smart woman checks rhetoric against behaviour - and I'm not just talking about a suspicious BW who phones the friend that the MM claims to have been at the pub with, or the skeptical OW who measures the MM's love by whether he's retained a D lawyer yet or not - I'm talking about the emotional truths and the behaviour that confirms, or belies that, too. If claims of love are made - are these matched by consistent, open, intimate body language - or is there withdrawal, inappropriate jocularity, hesitance or unexplained melancholy?

 

Too often people hear, and believe, what they most want to hear and believe, and ambiguity is filtered in a way that twists it into evidence for their own case. MMs do this, BSs do this, OWs do this. Humans are basically optimistic creatures, and thrive on hope.

 

There's nothing romantic about verification or skepticism, but sometimes a touch of realism goes a long way in keeping a heart whole.

[bentnotbroken]

I have always maintained that I’d never out my MM to his W unless he did something outside of the A to intentionally cause great damage in my life. I think it is one of the deals that you make when entering an A, like part of the vows of an A. I think my MM trusts me a lot. I could expose many things that I think would obliterate his M. Even if he treated me badly in the A, I don’t see myself doing that to him. It really isn’t my place to tell. She should get whatever info she needs from him and if he can’t be honest about it then that’s another issue they have to work out in their M. Honestly, details would only hurt her more and I’ve already contributed to her hurt enough. I really don’t want or think the weight of that should be on my shoulders.

 

I did go through a period where I felt beyond absolutely horrible that I was involved in the A. I felt so guilty. I’d constantly think about her and her suspicions, his lies, how she must feel and think. I would literally cry at night in my pillow whispering “I am so sorry (her name here)”. At that time, I really wanted to tell his W the truth about anything she wanted to know. If she was asking me face-to-face during that period I think I would have. I felt that I owed it to her.

 

 

Apparently whatever you were feeling that you owed her wasn't strong enough for you to tell or for you to stop what you were doing. Your tears were for you not her. You eased your dissonance by putting all the responsibility on him. It is completely okay with you to be a party to her pain and completely okay with you to dismiss her pain. This is a truly sad post to me.

[bentnotbroken]

Honest answer: 1) If I start feeling guilty or empathy for her it causes problems with how I feel about MM so I can’t let that stuff creep in and 2) I find myself envious at times of her M and kinda bitterly think “screw you, you have him all of the time. Why I should I feel bad you?”

 

Guilty, empathy, and envy…I never thought in a million years I would have those emotions towards her.

 

 

Interesting. Are the feelings more than you want to deal with so you shove them done or have you conquered the feelings and no longer have them?

[JustJoe]

Once again, surprisingly, I have to agree with Owoman. Truth is subjective, facts are objective. In my affair, at first I believed everything my MW said, but as the A continued, I began to find factual discrepancies in her stories, so I was left with trying to piece together a true picture, from what she said, what could be verified, and what I knew beforehand.

[skywriter]

And I think if you were completely honest with yourself, you know the reason you'd never tell is because if there were a dday, he'd choose her over you.

 

 

Isn't that just human nature to not want to be the one rejected? Even if you are the AP, nobody wants to be faced with the one not chosen.

[silktricks]

I have wavered back and forth on the "tell" or "no tell" line.

 

If, as one poster said, the OW was tricked by the MM and when she found out he was married she broke it off and told his wife - that reason I would assuredly agree with, as it would seem (to me) that it would be a cleansing for their (OW's) soul.

 

At times I think YES - tell!! the wife needs to find out from SOMEONE. And there is a lot of truth to that. But - other times I think no.....

 

However, if the affair is ongoing, then I say, yes. tell. The BS may or may not leave, but she/he will be making their choice with somewhat opened eyes. The thing is - when the affair is ongoing, most OW don't have any real desire to tell.

 

If the affair is over, I say leave it alone and don't tell. The OW is no longer a part of the equation. Let the MP make their own decisions. Though I don't believe the marriage will ever truly "recover" if the couple doesn't work through ALL of the issues, I don't think it's up to anyone but them to make those decisions. The OW should move on with her life and take care of healing herself, leaving the married couple to continue muddling through however they do.

 

But, you know, I could change my mind again tomorrow...

[DramaQueen]

I didnt plan to tell the W, especially not for reasons to hurt her or MM. To me, that is not my call, if anything, MM should be telling her. When the W sent me a text and begged me to tell her, i texted MM and asked how i should reply his W. he didnt reply me and refused to take my call. this A has been going on for about 4 years and i was getting very sick of playing 2nd fiddle and playing by his rules that keep changing to his favour. so, i said to myself, enough is enough. i told her that we are still seeing each other and that was all i was going to say. i just wanted to see how this will all end because i was so tired of hiding and settling for breadcrumbs. she wrote me many threatening texts after that but i did not reply any.

 

MM was miserable for 1 day after that and didnt call. on the 2nd day, he was back to his cheerful self.i asked him what happened but he wasnt keen to tell me much. guess he probably managed to convince the W again that i was clapping with one hand, having ended with me a long time ago but i was still stalking him, refusing to let go, blah, blah, blah, whatever he could think of to cover his ass.

 

i have gone NC now because i feel there will never be a future and i know he's lying too much to both the W and me.

[pureinheart]

Once again, surprisingly, I have to agree with Owoman. Truth is subjective, facts are objective. In my affair, at first I believed everything my MW said, but as the A continued, I began to find factual discrepancies in her stories, so I was left with trying to piece together a true picture, from what she said, what could be verified, and what I knew beforehand.

 

This is not hard figure out at all, I went through the same thing, although most of what I already knew to be true was.

 

Unless the person has put up an inpenentrable smoke screen then the truth is easy to see...I think in some cases it's a matter of whether the betrayed party (BS or OW/OM) wants to see it or not.

[pureinheart]

I have wavered back and forth on the "tell" or "no tell" line.

 

If, as one poster said, the OW was tricked by the MM and when she found out he was married she broke it off and told his wife - that reason I would assuredly agree with, as it would seem (to me) that it would be a cleansing for their (OW's) soul.

 

At times I think YES - tell!! the wife needs to find out from SOMEONE. And there is a lot of truth to that. But - other times I think no.....

 

However, if the affair is ongoing, then I say, yes. tell. The BS may or may not leave, but she/he will be making their choice with somewhat opened eyes. The thing is - when the affair is ongoing, most OW don't have any real desire to tell.

 

If the affair is over, I say leave it alone and don't tell. The OW is no longer a part of the equation. Let the MP make their own decisions. Though I don't believe the marriage will ever truly "recover" if the couple doesn't work through ALL of the issues, I don't think it's up to anyone but them to make those decisions. The OW should move on with her life and take care of healing herself, leaving the married couple to continue muddling through however they do.

 

But, you know, I could change my mind again tomorrow...

 

 

This IMO is an excellent quality, as it says you have the ability to grow and change. It's about being able to hear another point of view different from your perceptions and if it sounds reasonable, then it is what it is....good reply!

[pureinheart]

And I think if you were completely honest with yourself, you know the reason you'd never tell is because if there were a dday, he'd choose her over you.

 

 

Isn't that just human nature to not want to be the one rejected? Even if you are the AP, nobody wants to be faced with the one not chosen.

 

Actually in my case I chose "me" over "him".

[torranceshipman]

Actually the unwritten rule mostly seems to be complete subservience to the MM as he is clearly in charge. That's why the no telling the wife rule is there. And yes I know there are exceptions but for all or most of the OW in love this strikes me as the way things go.

[Spark1111]

Or, maybe she doesn't tell because she harbors a hope deep in her soul, that he only returned to his spouse out of some sense of obligation, because he can only have true love with the AP, and she waits or plans or plots to accidentally on purpose, bump into him and maybe stir it all up again.

 

Why? She has a new single boyfriend, a seemingly good guy, but its not the same, just not the same at all as the intensity of feelings and unrequited love drama of the illicit affair.

 

Just saying....

[jj33]

Honest answer: 1) If I start feeling guilty or empathy for her it causes problems with how I feel about MM so I can’t let that stuff creep in and 2) I find myself envious at times of her M and kinda bitterly think “screw you, you have him all of the time. Why I should I feel bad you?”

 

Guilty, empathy, and envy…I never thought in a million years I would have those emotions towards her.

 

Why is everyone jumping on Skylar this is honest and true in some variant for everyone who is in a concealed A and cares about the person they are with. Skylar had the courage to say it without sugar coating it.

 

I still dont get the question and am hoping the OP will qualify it.

 

When you engage in a clandestine affair you tacitly agree that you won't tell the BS (otherwise most As would be shortlived).

 

If the OW did the deed and called the OW the next day and said honey I hate to break it to you but your spouse is a cheater, how long would most As last...

 

I must be missing something here....

[Lizzie60]

Huh. I thought the unwritten OW rule was "Never get attached."

If you never get attached, you have no reason to tell the W.

I musta got the wrong memo.

 

totally agree here...

 

I would add... never get attached.. you won't get hurt.. you won't hurt others..(as long as you don't get caught)..

[Hazyhead]

I wasn't picking on Skylar. I was simply saying that it was disingenuous of her to say that she felt like crying into her pillow over the BS. If she really felt THAT bad, she should end it.

 

Not to answer for the OP, but I took the OP's post to be a discussion about when/if it's ok to tell the BS. (like if there's a pregnancy, std, for examples)

 

In Skylar's defense, I have felt more guilt about the BS over the last couple of months (the end of the A). I think I had existed in a state of denial over the year of the A, refusing to think about her; I would shy away from any conversation in which she may be mentioned. Now, I think about her far more and how she must be after everything and when I do I feel a stab of guilt. She had never done anything to harm me and yet I had facilitated one of the most painful things she will go through. I know this is massively hypocritical and I'm not saying I would tell for this reason, but the feelings of sympathy have honestly surprised me.

 

I guess it's part of working through the process. For me, anyway.

[wheelwright]

Or, maybe she doesn't tell because she harbors a hope deep in her soul, that he only returned to his spouse out of some sense of obligation, because he can only have true love with the AP, and she waits or plans or plots to accidentally on purpose, bump into him and maybe stir it all up again.

 

Why? She has a new single boyfriend, a seemingly good guy, but its not the same, just not the same at all as the intensity of feelings and unrequited love drama of the illicit affair.

 

Just saying....

 

My xMOM forced DDay on me and my H - not the same as telling him, but the same effect.

 

And I would never have forced DDay on him - I would have broken my family first. The A was one thing - in the light of many factors like he was a single but family man - but forcing him and his wife into that position - I couldn't have done it, even to save my M (which I could not stay in with the isolated knowledge of my betrayal).

 

I did love him and this was a factor. But the reason was that he and I had done it for our own reasons (love? loneliness? mlc? chemistry? intimacy?), and these were not reasons to force a particularly horrible crisis on another family.

 

I know the standard answer - you did this when you had the A anyway.

 

I don't like As and deceit, but I don't like people forcing truth onto another when that truth will hurt badly even more.

 

Especially if they do it for the sake of their own skin. If they do it out of compassion then maybe. No OW would ever be in a position to say wholeheartedly she did it for compassion for the BS. It just ain't so.

[skylarblue]

Jthorne, please don’t take this the wrong way because I really do like you, but please please don’t tell me what I did or did not do and how I did or did not feel when I did/did not do it (and that goes for you too BNB). If there is one thing that I try to be it’s honest with myself about myself and about my thoughts, whether it makes me look all together or a total loser. You are right that I do choose to be in denial about things some times, kinda inflate the positive and deflate the negative until it’s skewed into something I find acceptable. And ignoring things like it doesn’t exist, but knowing it does, yep, I do that at times too. Probably the way I cope with a lot of things. Not always something I try to do, but I do it.

 

But you are totally wrong in thinking the reason [i’d] never tell is because if there were a dday, he'd choose her over [me]. The reason I’d never tell is affairs are supposed to be a secret. Simple as that. I have no motive to tell. As long as he doesn’t play out of the rules and give me motive, I plan not to say a word. BTW I don’t put it past the thought the he may choose her before a dday. And you are wrong in saying that I’m disingenuous and my crying [was] not for her, but for the wish that she wasn't in [my] way. That NEVER crossed my mind and looking back at it can still say it NEVER crossed my mind.

 

I’d never had any guilt or empathy for her, but it happened when I found out I was pregnant. I didn’t plan or have a motive for it. I was feeling at my lowest, most despairing, loneliest, world-changing time of my life. It caused me to think how she’d probably be feeling the same way if she found out her H was having an affair and worst the girl was pregnant and sorry, but I was overcome with emotions and some were for her. The thought that she was the one on the other end of one of the most awful, sordid, heart-wrenching things I could ever imagine and she’d feel the most horrible, lost, despondent feeling that I’d ever experience and I was one who’d done it to her; I was overwhelmingly sad and disgusted. Believe what you want, but please don’t tell me or imply that it was something that I faked, was misguided about or used to deflect responsibility. And again, this goes to you to BNB “your tears were for you not her”.

[bentnotbroken]

Jthorne, please don’t take this the wrong way because I really do like you, but please please don’t tell me what I did or did not do and how I did or did not feel when I did/did not do it (and that goes for you too BNB). If there is one thing that I try to be it’s honest with myself about myself and about my thoughts, whether it makes me look all together or a total loser. You are right that I do choose to be in denial about things some times, kinda inflate the positive and deflate the negative until it’s skewed into something I find acceptable. And ignoring things like it doesn’t exist, but knowing it does, yep, I do that at times too. Probably the way I cope with a lot of things. Not always something I try to do, but I do it.

 

But you are totally wrong in thinking the reason [i’d] never tell is because if there were a dday, he'd choose her over [me]. The reason I’d never tell is affairs are supposed to be a secret. Simple as that. I have no motive to tell. As long as he doesn’t play out of the rules and give me motive, I plan not to say a word. BTW I don’t put it past the thought the he may choose her before a dday. And you are wrong in saying that I’m disingenuous and my crying [was] not for her, but for the wish that she wasn't in [my] way. That NEVER crossed my mind and looking back at it can still say it NEVER crossed my mind.

 

I’d never had any guilt or empathy for her, but it happened when I found out I was pregnant. I didn’t plan or have a motive for it. I was feeling at my lowest, most despairing, loneliest, world-changing time of my life. It caused me to think how she’d probably be feeling the same way if she found out her H was having an affair and worst the girl was pregnant and sorry, but I was overcome with emotions and some were for her. The thought that she was the one on the other end of one of the most awful, sordid, heart-wrenching things I could ever imagine and she’d feel the most horrible, lost, despondent feeling that I’d ever experience and I was one who’d done it to her; I was overwhelmingly sad and disgusted. Believe what you want, but please don’t tell me or imply that it was something that I faked, was misguided about or used to deflect responsibility. And again, this goes to you to BNB “your tears were for you not her”.

 

 

I don't think you faked your emotions or your tears, but all your past posts about how you do things for the fun of doing or that you get a thrill from taking attention of a MM from his wife. Those posts lead some to the conclusion that you are somewhat callous in your feelings for others, especially the BS. If you don't wish to have people view you in that manner maybe the should reread some of them things you have posted and see what others might see as well. I will say it again, based on what you have previously posted...your tears were for you, not her.

[jj33]

The reason I’d never tell is affairs are supposed to be a secret. Simple as that. I have no motive to tell. As long as he doesn’t play out of the rules and give me motive, I plan not to say a word.

 

Exactly. You know going in that As are supposed to be secret.

 

I told when he broke the rules brazenly and repeatedly long after the A was over. I did it out of what felt like necessity at the time. I didnt tell his W as that would have accomplished nothing, I told other people who didnt know for sure and cared about xMMs conduct far more than she does.

[Spark1111]

My xMOM forced DDay on me and my H - not the same as telling him, but the same effect.

 

And I would never have forced DDay on him - I would have broken my family first. The A was one thing - in the light of many factors like he was a single but family man - but forcing him and his wife into that position - I couldn't have done it, even to save my M (which I could not stay in with the isolated knowledge of my betrayal).

 

I did love him and this was a factor. But the reason was that he and I had done it for our own reasons (love? loneliness? mlc? chemistry? intimacy?), and these were not reasons to force a particularly horrible crisis on another family.

 

I know the standard answer - you did this when you had the A anyway.

 

I don't like As and deceit, but I don't like people forcing truth onto another when that truth will hurt badly even more.

 

Especially if they do it for the sake of their own skin. If they do it out of compassion then maybe. No OW would ever be in a position to say wholeheartedly she did it for compassion for the BS. It just ain't so.

 

OK, not to t/j...but here is how the scenario plays out. He recommits to his marriage. You want to remain friends bcus the hardest thing to give up is the constant daily talking and sharing.

 

He too has a hard time letting go of this until he realizes it is killing his chances of recommitting to his marriage. You tell him to recommit to his marriage because he obviously is still in love with his wife.

 

He asks you to stop calling, and while somewhat shocked and dismayed, you abide and accept it.

 

If the wife calls you six months later extending an olive branch, wanting to close the chapter on this painful chapter, does not want any surprises in the event of bumping into each other at a company event (they still work for the same company), you ignore her call.......

 

Why? What would be your motivation at that point? What are you protecting at that point? You? Him? A potential future together? What?

[skylarblue]

Jthorne, fair enough...

 

I don't think you faked your emotions or your tears, but all your past posts about how you do things for the fun of doing or that you get a thrill from taking attention of a MM from his wife. Those posts lead some to the conclusion that you are somewhat callous in your feelings for others, especially the BS. If you don't wish to have people view you in that manner maybe the should reread some of them things you have posted and see what others might see as well. I will say it again, based on what you have previously posted...your tears were for you, not her.

 

Understood, and as far as the BS and MM very true. But I thought I was making in clear in later posts that that had changed significantly. I mean, you live and you learn. I guess that hadn't come across...

[bentnotbroken]

Jthorne, fair enough...

 

 

 

Understood, and as far as the BS and MM very true. But I thought I was making in clear in later posts that that had changed significantly. I mean, you live and you learn. I guess that hadn't come across...

 

 

Then let me be fair. I have not read your new posts. I haven't read your new thread about deciding to leave. I don't wish to offend, but I didn't read them because of your previous posts. They made me sad and a little angry that you seem to disregard another human so easily. With that said, I will apologize for not knowing that your view had changed and I didn't base my opinion on anything recent.

[Spark1111]

I believe most OW will never tell the BS anything, no matter what is the right thing to do, or the motivation behind it, or how the keeping of secrets is justified as not wanting to hurt another person or family.

 

I believe it is part of the affair dynamic to think "less" of the BS, or to think nothing at all of her. She cannot exist as a breathing human being with feelings because then, if you were a woman who had any sort of conscience, you could never participate in the affair, no matter what donkey dust was being blown up your azz by the oh-so-charming MM in hot pursuit of you.

 

The spouse MUSt be minimized in your mind, as she is in his, to justify taking that attraction, that "Oh we are falling in love feeling, and we JUST CAN'T HELP OURSELVES" to the next level.

 

If the BS has been minimized, or denigrated, or non-existant in your thoughts during the course of the affair, why would any OW then suddenly develop a conscience AFTER the affair and give one whit about the BS, her feelings, her devastation, her need for truth or closure?

 

It just doesn't compute for me. Few develop the conscience AFTER the affair if they did not have one BEFORE the affair, IMHO.

[White Flower]

I believe most OW will never tell the BS anything, no matter what is the right thing to do, or the motivation behind it, or how the keeping of secrets is justified as not wanting to hurt another person or family.

 

I believe it is part of the affair dynamic to think "less" of the BS, or to think nothing at all of her. She cannot exist as a breathing human being with feelings because then, if you were a woman who had any sort of conscience, you could never participate in the affair, no matter what donkey dust was being blown up your azz by the oh-so-charming MM in hot pursuit of you.

 

The spouse MUSt be minimized in your mind, as she is in his, to justify taking that attraction, that "Oh we are falling in love feeling, and we JUST CAN'T HELP OURSELVES" to the next level.

 

If the BS has been minimized, or denigrated, or non-existant in your thoughts during the course of the affair, why would any OW then suddenly develop a conscience AFTER the affair and give one whit about the BS, her feelings, her devastation, her need for truth or closure?

 

It just doesn't compute for me. Few develop the conscience AFTER the affair if they did not have one BEFORE the affair, IMHO.

If you feel so strongly about the OW having no conscience then why did you pursue for two years the conversation you wanted so much with the OW in your triangle?

 

And why would you believe anything this woman without a conscience had to say?

 

FTR, and I assume most OW feel this way but I'm sure not all, the BS is not minimized, reduced, or denigrated. Her R with her H is hers and ours with MM is ours. I don't exist to her and she doesn't exist to me, until D-day of course. But that is how a lot of us see it in the beginning and throughout the A.

[Spark1111]

If you feel so strongly about the OW having no conscience then why did you pursue for two years the conversation you wanted so much with the OW in your triangle?

 

And why would you believe anything this woman without a conscience had to say?

 

FTR, and I assume most OW feel this way but I'm sure not all, the BS is not minimized, reduced, or denigrated. Her R with her H is hers and ours with MM is ours. I don't exist to her and she doesn't exist to me, until D-day of course. But that is how a lot of us see it in the beginning and throughout the A.

 

White Flower, you know better than anyone how hard I tried to contact her believing her to be a woman of integrity like me. I thought she owned her choices, had just fallen in love with the same man I had, and thought with all the water under the bridge, and what she had told him ( to reconcile with the spouse he obviously now loved) that she too was a woman who had taken the high road and could have a mature conversation.

 

She wasn't. She couldn't.

 

Why?

 

She wanted him back? She wanted to believe he only reconciled for familial obligations? She wanted to believe her delusion, as maybe spoonfed to her by him, that I was less than, and if not less than, than not as good for him as she was?

 

Two years later, I finally confront her after she breaks NC. We talk and she has anger and contempt and animosity in her voice towards me and him. Why?

 

Especially bizarre was this convo happens a wekk after she enters his office all sweetness and light and I have a new boyfriend, and should I pursue this relationship and do you think I am a bad person?

 

Why would this woman ever care one whit about me?