Spin-off: "The unwritten OW Rule"

[White Flower]

Rebuttals? Not so many actually. In fact, I think I agree with all of it.

I must confess to having felt tempted to tell my H's xW to "bog off" during the A - but I knew that would resolve nothing. He needed to stand up to her for himself, to choose the life he wanted so that he could be at peace with his decision, make the best and most sustainable decision and not be pushed into something he may later regret.

 

I have only recently realised why a wife might be more willing than an OW, to tell the other woman to "p*** off".

 

1. I guess the OW has known from day 1 that she is unwanted in the marital relationship, which is after all between the man and his wife.

 

2. The BW (after d-day) very much regards the OW as an intruder in her marriage (at least I did) so feels quite justified in telling the OW to "nick off". Despite the rather obvious comparison with schoolgirl behaviour, it's actually not all that juvenile. Adult humans have been repelling invasions from perceived enemies since time immemorial.

 

3. On the other hand the OW does not usually perceive the BW (at least initially) as an intruder into the Affair relationship. Even if she did, I imagine OW would have a hard time trying to convince most MM of that.

 

Therefore telling the wife to "p*** off", is not usually done. Probably this is an implicit acknowledgment of the different dynamics of the 2 relationships.

 

I have noticed that the biggest condemnation for OW who "tell the wife" actually comes from OW, who are very quick to point out the dramatic turnaround from when the A was going strong. Probably just emphasizes that it is in fact an "unwritten rule".

 

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

 

 

And would just like to add the flip side:

 

1. True. And the A relationship is between the man and his OW. There is a contract there too, unwritten of course.

 

2. Likewise, the BW seems to be an intrusion into the A. If he had time to pursue and woo his OW into falling in love, and he knows she will, he better have time to see it through as well as keep BW away from that R.

 

3. It isn't so hard to convince him until she (BW) learns of the A. Then it is very hard to convince him. You know, vows being thrown in his face and all that. I should dig up old instant messages where it is MM himself who states that BW is the intruder. But I won't.

Adult humans have been repelling invasions from perceived enemies since time immemorial.

 

Yes they have. Just like OW. Only difference is one group feels they have the right to fight because of a promise of love made years earlier while the other feels they have the right to fight because of true love.

[NoIDidn't]

Rebuttals? Not so many actually. In fact, I think I agree with all of it.

 

 

 

And would just like to add the flip side:

 

1. True. And the A relationship is between the man and his OW. There is a contract there too, unwritten of course.

 

2. Likewise, the BW seems to be an intrusion into the A. If he had time to pursue and woo his OW into falling in love, and he knows she will, he better have time to see it through as well as keep BW away from that R.

 

3. It isn't so hard to convince him until she (BW) learns of the A. Then it is very hard to convince him. You know, vows being thrown in his face and all that. I should dig up old instant messages where it is MM himself who states that BW is the intruder. But I won't.

 

 

Yes they have. Just like OW. Only difference is one group feels they have the right to fight because of a promise of love made years earlier while the other feels they have the right to fight because of true love.

 

Your flip side is a rebuttal. Affair logic is some interesting stuff. I've never seen it said that a Spouse was intruding in their own R. The established partner and established R can't intrude on the secret one. Without the established R, the intrusion doesn't exist.

[moaningmyrtle]

My comments in bold.

 

Rebuttals? Not so many actually. In fact, I think I agree with all of it.

 

 

 

And would just like to add the flip side:

 

1. True. And the A relationship is between the man and his OW. There is a contract there too, unwritten of course.

 

Hence the "never tell the BW" as an unwritten clause in the unwritten contract.

 

2. Likewise, the BW seems to be an intrusion into the A. If he had time to pursue and woo his OW into falling in love, and he knows she will, he better have time to see it through as well as keep BW away from that R.

 

Except the BW doesn't knowingly intrude/invade anything before d-day, whereas the OW does.

 

3. It isn't so hard to convince him until she (BW) learns of the A. Then it is very hard to convince him. You know, vows being thrown in his face and all that. I should dig up old instant messages where it is MM himself who states that BW is the intruder. But I won't.

 

No comment except that mostly his actions show otherwise - if he really thought this he'd be publicly standing beside the OW repelling his wife the intruder!

 

Yes they have. Just like OW. Only difference is one group feels they have the right to fight because of a promise of love made years earlier while the other feels they have the right to fight because of true love.

 

I have to disagree with this if you are suggesting that in most case there was no true love when they married. Also if the OW believes it's true love why doesn't she fight for it (as you seem to suggest she do), by telling the wife to "p*** off"? There is a thread over on Infidelity where the OW is contemplating doing just that (exposing) and she's being almost universally condemned ostensibly for her motives. But even is she were claiming it was for "true love" it wouldn't surprise me if the usual suspects still criticised her for it.

[pureinheart]

The only thing that I think is different, mostlikely due to my unusual circUmstances is:

 

I felt the kids and exW as an intrusion to me and my world.

[pureinheart]

1. True. And the A relationship is between the man and his OW. There is a contract there too, unwritten of course.

 

2. Likewise, the BW seems to be an intrusion into the A. If he had time to pursue and woo his OW into falling in love, and he knows she will, he better have time to see it through as well as keep BW away from that R.

 

3. It isn't so hard to convince him until she (BW) learns of the A. Then it is very hard to convince him. You know, vows being thrown in his face and all that. I should dig up old instant messages where it is MM himself who states that BW is the intruder. But I won't.

 

 

Yes they have. Just like OW. Only difference is one group feels they have the right to fight because of a promise of love made years earlier while the other feels they have the right to fight because of true love.

 

Many times exDM told me he felt his now exW stood in the way...now many can makes judgments/statements concerning this last statement, although exDM is the only one that knows his truth and what he went through...I know he was not lying to me concerning this.

 

I was angry with exDM that his now exW and STBexKids invaded MySpace...lol, quite literally.

[Spark1111]

1. I guess I forgot I was talking to Spark!! I anticipate MM's W to be much more closed off and judgmental based on what I already know of her.

 

2. If only we can all demonstrate such qualities. Again, refer to number 1.

 

3. Me too. Curious to a fault. Ask MM.

 

4. Not sure how you will receive this, but I have empathy for BW as well. Yes, I sleep with her H, but I know how much that thought would hurt her; therefore, I don't mind that MM minimized our A and told her we were just friends. It would kill her to know.

 

It is not the telling that kills; it is the actions of the MP done in secrecy that is the soul destroyer. Telling the truth is a relief, though you may not be able to predict nor avoid the reactions of pain to that truth. Not telling is once again, avoidance of consequences.

 

5. Now THIS is something I can relate to! I WOULD have had a billion questions for you (every experience is a learning experience, right?), but again, if the BW is only expecting knowledge for repentence and I as an OW don't believe you want to offer me the truth I may be apprehensive in asking for it. Did you ask OW why she didn't have any questions for you?

 

Never got the chance. She hung up on me screaming epithets at me.

 

6. So, the only reason she agreed to meet with you was in order to create a 'peace agreement' should you run into each other at work events? Interesting. If I was offered a Q and A session with you, I would have certainly engaged! At the very least, I would have gotten my sense of intuition validated on certain events if nothing else. And also, if I could see that you were sincerely empathetic (is 'sincerely empathetic' redundant, lol:laugh:) that might have been a spiritual moment for me. In other words, I would have been touched.

 

She never answered the call asking for a meeting. One year later, she fragrantly broke NC, and with his support, I called her direct line at work, something I would never do because I thought it rude and invasive up until NC was broken.

 

7. I have always thought of myself in the same way. I know BS will jump all over that, but it's true. I would like to discuss number 7 in further detail one day.

 

8. Same here.

 

9. After 2 years she is still hoping he will return to her? How sad! So you think she was protecting him and keeping his secrets for her own needs? How do you know? Maybe she did it for him? Or maybe she was just uncomfortable in kissing and telling? Did you try to dig out of her her reasons for not exchanging info?

 

Well two weeks before my one and only conversation with her, she broke NC by seeking him out to tell him of her new boyfriend, and should she pursue the relationship? She also mentioned other info designed to push every emotional trigger he had. She was fishing to see if HE was interested in restarting. I guess the bf was not as exciting. Yes, very very sad that she does not know me, but truly hates me. The contempt in her tone defies discription. No growing here.

 

Spark, thanks for taking the time to answer the question. You are a rarity among BW and it is no wonder that he knew who to chose to spend the rest of his life with. It is also rare that you try to understand the OW POV and are sensitive to her feelings. We are all human.

 

Thanks, WF! god knows how hard I try.

[jennie-jennie]

I didnt plan to tell the W, especially not for reasons to hurt her or MM. To me, that is not my call, if anything, MM should be telling her. When the W sent me a text and begged me to tell her, i texted MM and asked how i should reply his W. he didnt reply me and refused to take my call. this A has been going on for about 4 years and i was getting very sick of playing 2nd fiddle and playing by his rules that keep changing to his favour. so, i said to myself, enough is enough. i told her that we are still seeing each other and that was all i was going to say. i just wanted to see how this will all end because i was so tired of hiding and settling for breadcrumbs. she wrote me many threatening texts after that but i did not reply any.

 

MM was miserable for 1 day after that and didnt call. on the 2nd day, he was back to his cheerful self.i asked him what happened but he wasnt keen to tell me much. guess he probably managed to convince the W again that i was clapping with one hand, having ended with me a long time ago but i was still stalking him, refusing to let go, blah, blah, blah, whatever he could think of to cover his ass.

 

i have gone NC now because i feel there will never be a future and i know he's lying too much to both the W and me.

 

I can understand the emotions of Dramaqueen. I too can feel like I want to stir the pot, make anything happen, end the secrecy, whatever the outcome.

 

What keeps me back?

It usually ends with disaster for the OW - if the MM was not ready to make a decision before Dday, he likely won't be on Dday either.

A strong sense that you don't snitch on anybody.

 

"I do not want to be hidden any longer so I am ging to stop that by informing your wife." If the social norm had been more accepting of an OW/OM telling, would I then have told? Perhaps. Now I feel that my MM would be outrageously mad at me, and rightly so, for stepping over the bounds and into his marriage. I feel it is not within my power to choose to tell. That would be betraying my MM.

 

But I do understand Dramaqueen. When you have been in limbo for so long, you just wish you could make something, anything, happen.

 

Some of you might notice that the BS does not play any role in my thoughts. That is true. Our relationship is between me and MM, she has no part in it. What I am interested in is not being hidden any more. I never hid MM, and I don't like that he hides me.

[pureinheart]

I can understand the emotions of Dramaqueen. I too can feel like I want to stir the pot, make anything happen, end the secrecy, whatever the outcome.

 

What keeps me back?

It usually ends with disaster for the OW - if the MM was not ready to make a decision before Dday, he likely won't be on Dday either.

A strong sense that you don't snitch on anybody.

 

"I do not want to be hidden any longer so I am ging to stop that by informing your wife." If the social norm had been more accepting of an OW/OM telling, would I then have told? Perhaps. Now I feel that my MM would be outrageously mad at me, and rightly so, for stepping over the bounds and into his marriage. I feel it is not within my power to choose to tell. That would be betraying my MM.

 

But I do understand Dramaqueen. When you have been in limbo for so long, you just wish you could make something, anything, happen.

 

Some of you might notice that the BS does not play any role in my thoughts. That is true. Our relationship is between me and MM, she has no part in it. What I am interested in is not being hidden any more. I never hid MM, and I don't like that he hides me.

 

I felt the same way, I wanted him to make his own decision, without any intervention from me.

 

It would also be betraying you, as MM has been a major support in your life. Also because your convictions are contrary, and you would not like you afterwards. If this is wrong let me know, as this has been my observation.

 

Obviously I can identify with you a lot...his exW I felt had nothing to do with me, or me and him. I left because I didn't like being hidden also.

 

This may be a very dumb question, although have you discussed this with MM ?

 

Wow, this is so real, so honest, so heartfelt...great reply Jennie

 

Oh and BTW, I turned 50...the big 5...0...it's over now I can move on as this was a major fear. It's over, it happened and now I have to deal with it and start getting younger again...

[jennie-jennie]

I felt the same way, I wanted him to make his own decision, without any intervention from me.

 

It would also be betraying you, as MM has been a major support in your life. Also because your convictions are contrary, and you would not like you afterwards. If this is wrong let me know, as this has been my observation.

 

Obviously I can identify with you a lot...his exW I felt had nothing to do with me, or me and him. I left because I didn't like being hidden also.

 

This may be a very dumb question, although have you discussed this with MM ?

 

Wow, this is so real, so honest, so heartfelt...great reply Jennie

 

Oh and BTW, I turned 50...the big 5...0...it's over now I can move on as this was a major fear. It's over, it happened and now I have to deal with it and start getting younger again...

 

Congrats on turning 50, Pure!

 

Once way earlier did I mention thinking of telling the BS. My MM is a very gentle man, but that made him upset!

 

For a long time I have had no wish to tell, but lately it has come up again. I believe due to my MM's present inaction although he has been claiming the contrary. I might very well discuss it with him again. We talk about everything. It would be interesting to hear his arguments why he would consider my choices to be only to stay or leave, not to change the circumstances of staying by refusing to stay hidden.

 

Pure, you are correct, by snitching I would be betraying myself as well. I could not tell without the approval of my MM. I don't know if my background plays in here. In my twenties I was involved in the outskirts of society with drugs and crimes. Snitching was the worst sin ever.

[pureinheart]

True enough. MM has recently began telling family and friends about me and even though I always wanted this I must admit that I'm a little apprehensive because I know no matter what some of those people will always have their own thoughts and prejudgments about me (which is what he tried to protect me of since the beginning). But too much time and energy has been invested not to tell at this point and for those who want to be happy for us, great. Those that don't, oh well. I'll take my punches. I'm a big girl.

 

OMG WF, I have to tell you, it was weird at first. I felt very uncomfortable. Girl, this man is stone cold in love with you (I am not saying those that have not met family and friends that love is not there....this is just a very big step).

 

You might be surprized as these are his friends and family, and they ALL want to see him happy. I've followed your story and it has been a very destructive M IMO from what you have said. Most of exDM's family were very accepting of me, and it was not weird at all.

 

His nephew did threaten me indirectly by threatening his exW during the D, stating he was his uncle and he was family so I better not hurt him....well this didn't go over very well with me...needless to say even though this was just one family member aside from his kids (which don't care anymore), exDM racked up too many points against him already anyway.

 

I'm 50 now so I have to be a big person now I guess

[Spark1111]

I can understand the emotions of Dramaqueen. I too can feel like I want to stir the pot, make anything happen, end the secrecy, whatever the outcome.

 

What keeps me back?

It usually ends with disaster for the OW - if the MM was not ready to make a decision before Dday, he likely won't be on Dday either.

A strong sense that you don't snitch on anybody.

 

Very honest. I understand loyalty towards someone you love, but disagree it does not force a decision, for choosing either the OW or the spouse. At least the future is clear.

 

"I do not want to be hidden any longer so I am ging to stop that by informing your wife." If the social norm had been more accepting of an OW/OM telling, would I then have told? Perhaps. Now I feel that my MM would be outrageously mad at me, and rightly so, for stepping over the bounds and into his marriage. I feel it is not within my power to choose to tell. That would be betraying my MM.

 

But I do understand Dramaqueen. When you have been in limbo for so long, you just wish you could make something, anything, happen.

 

I believe my husband's OW began to put pressure on him to choose and he was not ready to, although I believe he tried but hedged. I now, in retrospect, believe he wanted to be caught!

 

Some of you might notice that the BS does not play any role in my thoughts. That is true. Our relationship is between me and MM, she has no part in it. What I am interested in is not being hidden any more. I never hid MM, and I don't like that he hides me.

 

Jennie, a question: If there was a DDAY, and she were to then call you, have you given thought as to how you would respond?

[jennie-jennie]

Very honest. I understand loyalty towards someone you love, but disagree it does not force a decision, for choosing either the OW or the spouse. At least the future is clear.

 

Don't forget the alternative: the extramarital relationship going yet deeper into hiding. I believe this is the most likely outcome: the MM still wanting to keep both the BS and the OW. What would then have been gained?

 

I believe my husband's OW began to put pressure on him to choose and he was not ready to, although I believe he tried but hedged. I now, in retrospect, believe he wanted to be caught!

 

The question that haunts me is will he ever be ready to choose? I know he is not comfortable with the situation as is, but perhaps the other alternatives are even more uncomfortable.

Jennie, a question: If there was a DDAY, and she were to then call you, have you given thought as to how you would respond?

 

I would not blurt out all the details. I would not lie. Either I would tell her to talk to her husband or I would admit the existence of an extramarital relationship and perhaps the depth and duration of it. Details she would have to get from him, unless he specifically asked me to talk to her, and even then I would be hesitant to reveal very much.

 

My loyalty and sense of obligation is to myself: I don't lie, and to my MM - not to the BS. I don't owe her anything.

Edited April 1, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Got it]

I can understand the emotions of Dramaqueen. I too can feel like I want to stir the pot, make anything happen, end the secrecy, whatever the outcome.

 

What keeps me back?

It usually ends with disaster for the OW - if the MM was not ready to make a decision before Dday, he likely won't be on Dday either.

A strong sense that you don't snitch on anybody.

 

"I do not want to be hidden any longer so I am ging to stop that by informing your wife." If the social norm had been more accepting of an OW/OM telling, would I then have told? Perhaps. Now I feel that my MM would be outrageously mad at me, and rightly so, for stepping over the bounds and into his marriage. I feel it is not within my power to choose to tell. That would be betraying my MM.

 

But I do understand Dramaqueen. When you have been in limbo for so long, you just wish you could make something, anything, happen.

 

Some of you might notice that the BS does not play any role in my thoughts. That is true. Our relationship is between me and MM, she has no part in it. What I am interested in is not being hidden any more. I never hid MM, and I don't like that he hides me.

 

 

 

 

And these are my thoughts as well.

 

It needed to be his decision. Yes at my less than stellar moments I thought of talking to the BW but it was to cause a decision. But a decision should not have been under duress. I hated that a Dday happened. The EMR should not play a factor in the ending of the marriage. The marriage needs to end or sustain on its own merits.

 

And yes, my issue was the hidden factor. It was minimized as much as possible but I had a time limit on it.

[Fallen Angel]

My comments in bold.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with this if you are suggesting that in most case there was no true love when they married. Also if the OW believes it's true love why doesn't she fight for it (as you seem to suggest she do), by telling the wife to "p*** off"? There is a thread over on Infidelity where the OW is contemplating doing just that (exposing) and she's being almost universally condemned ostensibly for her motives. But even is she were claiming it was for "true love" it wouldn't surprise me if the usual suspects still criticised her for it.

 

To which thread are you referring? The thread over there that I read is the one where the married other woman has no plan to out her own affair to the BW, but to out the MOMs affair with yet another OW, after being told that he no longer wanted the affair with her, and moving on to someone else.

 

I think using that as your basis to defend your position here is misleading. She is being told not to tell based on why she wants to tell, and the fact that she has no intention of spilling her guts about her own involvement with the married man. That to me is not the same thing as a woman telling the wife to "piss-off" because she is intruding in the affair relationship, and she should be universally condemned for what she is proposing to do.

 

When given all the facts, that thread does not help your case at all.

[White Flower]

Your flip side is a rebuttal. Affair logic is some interesting stuff. I've never seen it said that a Spouse was intruding in their own R. The established partner and established R can't intrude on the secret one. Without the established R' date=' the intrusion doesn't exist.[/quote']

Not really. It is the additional information from the other side. BW come over here 'in order to understand the OW'. Enough said.

My comments in bold.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with this if you are suggesting that in most case there was no true love when they married. Also if the OW believes it's true love why doesn't she fight for it (as you seem to suggest she do), by telling the wife to "p*** off"? There is a thread over on Infidelity where the OW is contemplating doing just that (exposing) and she's being almost universally condemned ostensibly for her motives. But even is she were claiming it was for "true love" it wouldn't surprise me if the usual suspects still criticised her for it.

I know about that thread. I was one of the condemners. One can fight for love without being confrontational with the BW. Like I said, HE is M to her, he can tell her to p*** off, as you say. (But he would never use fightin' words like that).

When given all the facts, that thread does not help your case at all.

Not really.

[White Flower]

OMG WF, I have to tell you, it was weird at first. I felt very uncomfortable. Girl, this man is stone cold in love with you (I am not saying those that have not met family and friends that love is not there....this is just a very big step).

 

You might be surprized as these are his friends and family, and they ALL want to see him happy. I've followed your story and it has been a very destructive M IMO from what you have said. Most of exDM's family were very accepting of me, and it was not weird at all.

 

His nephew did threaten me indirectly by threatening his exW during the D, stating he was his uncle and he was family so I better not hurt him....well this didn't go over very well with me...needless to say even though this was just one family member aside from his kids (which don't care anymore), exDM racked up too many points against him already anyway.

 

I'm 50 now so I have to be a big person now I guess

So my IC keeps reminding me (that he is stone cold in love).

 

With regard to his M being 'very destructive', I have to say that due to his pretending (and this IS his fault) all outward appearances make it seem like a good M. This is what his IC is getting him to understand and break away from. So ironic that [false] pleasantries can lead to destruction. She thought he loved her because he always showed up and was nice. Hard to get over that when it's been demonstrated throughout the the entire M. I do feel for her, what a shock it must be. That is why I don't want us together until he finishes IC successfully. I'm very realistic of the fact he could carry that aspect on into another R/M. He is doing some hard work upon this discovery of himself.

 

What she adds to the destruction is unrealistic expectations (among other things). Hopefully her IC will get her through this self-destructive behavior.

 

I don't mean to t/j but I wanted to defend the fact that I don't unrealistically see their M as destructive without backing up how I know it. I didn't want it to be a blanket excuse to fill my own sense of satisfaction.

[White Flower]

Thanks, WF! god knows how hard I try.

I'm sure the trying part is only minimal even if it doesn't seem like it. It is your grace and character that I'm sure he fell back in love with.

[jennie-jennie]

Congrats on turning 50, Pure!

 

Once way earlier did I mention thinking of telling the BS. My MM is a very gentle man, but that made him upset!

 

For a long time I have had no wish to tell, but lately it has come up again. I believe due to my MM's present inaction although he has been claiming the contrary. I might very well discuss it with him again. We talk about everything. It would be interesting to hear his arguments why he would consider my choices to be only to stay or leave, not to change the circumstances of staying by refusing to stay hidden.

 

Pure, you are correct, by snitching I would be betraying myself as well. I could not tell without the approval of my MM. I don't know if my background plays in here. In my twenties I was involved in the outskirts of society with drugs and crimes. Snitching was the worst sin ever.

 

So I had the discussion with my MM. I told him I wanted to have the right to decide whether or not to disclose our relationship to the BS. I told him I wanted a third alternative besides staying hidden in the relationship or choosing to leave it.

 

We discussed the pros and cons with the secrecy, especially since ours is a long distance relationship. We discussed whether we think I am compliant in his deception of his wife today or not.

 

He told me if the BS calls me it is up to me how much I want to disclose to her. He does not expect me to lie.

 

He told me that I have the right to "send his world spinning" through disclosing the affair to his wife, and his world is already spinning anyway .

 

So I feel pretty good that this option is now available to me. There is a difference between having an out and deciding not to use it, and not having the choice whether to use the out or not since you are not allowed to.

 

I love that my MM and I can discuss pretty much anything.

[wheelwright]

OK, not to t/j...but here is how the scenario plays out. He recommits to his marriage. You want to remain friends bcus the hardest thing to give up is the constant daily talking and sharing.

 

He too has a hard time letting go of this until he realizes it is killing his chances of recommitting to his marriage. You tell him to recommit to his marriage because he obviously is still in love with his wife.

 

He asks you to stop calling, and while somewhat shocked and dismayed, you abide and accept it.

 

If the wife calls you six months later extending an olive branch, wanting to close the chapter on this painful chapter, does not want any surprises in the event of bumping into each other at a company event (they still work for the same company), you ignore her call.......

 

Why? What would be your motivation at that point? What are you protecting at that point? You? Him? A potential future together? What?

 

I wonder if the xOW who does this might just be protecting what is left of her dignity.

 

I know for me, if his BS wanted to talk to me, I would. But I would be very careful not to add to the angst, and this would mean minimising the A, at least in retrospect. I guess I would speak for me and what I thought about him at the time, but I could hold no real light to his feelings as they stand now.

 

If I avoided, it would not be about a possible future for me and him.

 

I have often wondered why his W didn't want to speak to me post DDay, just as you must wonder why your H's x will not speak to you. I think they/she just want to get on without me. Perhaps the OW in your situation just wants to get on for herself in a similar spirit - having nothing to do with people is a clear signal that they are no longer in your life.

 

And I would say if these aren't the reasons, it would be to protect him.

[NoIDidn't]

Not really. It is the additional information from the other side. BW come over here 'in order to understand the OW'. Enough said.

 

Enough said? LOL. You just gave the definition of rebuttal, while saying you didn't make one.

[moaningmyrtle]

To which thread are you referring? The thread over there that I read is the one where the married other woman has no plan to out her own affair to the BW, but to out the MOMs affair with yet another OW, after being told that he no longer wanted the affair with her, and moving on to someone else.

 

I think using that as your basis to defend your position here is misleading. She is being told not to tell based on why she wants to tell, and the fact that she has no intention of spilling her guts about her own involvement with the married man. That to me is not the same thing as a woman telling the wife to "piss-off" because she is intruding in the affair relationship, and she should be universally condemned for what she is proposing to do.

 

When given all the facts, that thread does not help your case at all.

 

I think this demonstrates exactly what I said. She is being condemned ostensibly for her motives (which are as you say to expose an affair, not necessarily her own affair). I said I thought even if that person were saying it was for "true love" she would still be condemned. This is my belief and I made it clear it was. My belief is based on other similar situations that have arisen when other OW have wondered on L/S whether or not to tell, and have been discouraged for similar reasons.

 

I have no "case" or "position" FA, except that there appears to be an "unwritten rule" not to tell the wife. Wasn't it you who essentially agreed that this was an obvious thing anyway?

 

Just saying and discussing what I think. You are allowed to disagree but that doesn't make me wrong.

[awkward]

So I feel pretty good that this option is now available to me. There is a difference between having an out and deciding not to use it, and not having the choice whether to use the out or not since you are not allowed to.

 

This option has always been available to you. What did MM say the consequences will be if you choose to exercise that option?

[pureinheart]

Congrats on turning 50, Pure!

 

Once way earlier did I mention thinking of telling the BS. My MM is a very gentle man, but that made him upset!

 

For a long time I have had no wish to tell, but lately it has come up again. I believe due to my MM's present inaction although he has been claiming the contrary. I might very well discuss it with him again. We talk about everything. It would be interesting to hear his arguments why he would consider my choices to be only to stay or leave, not to change the circumstances of staying by refusing to stay hidden.

 

Pure, you are correct, by snitching I would be betraying myself as well. I could not tell without the approval of my MM. I don't know if my background plays in here. In my twenties I was involved in the outskirts of society with drugs and crimes. Snitching was the worst sin ever.

 

You know Jennie, she's got to know something...I know your MM is very much in love with you...I knew right away when something was up with my H's. And not just that, anything that was up with them.

 

She could very well be in the same place you are, not saying anything on purpose, not wanting to push him.

 

ExDM had a few A's, and the same game would be played each time by both of them, the thrill of the chase, and the thrill of catching exDM in the act.

 

I really didn't understand during the A the exact amount of attachment exDM had for me until his daughter wrote me and said she couldn't believe that her dad would sacrifice everything for me...hey that was news to me, although his other R's were basically games...his and mine was real. This was quite the shock from the norm for them and they began to really fear me because this meant "game over" for all of them.

 

Just by the term "snitching", I knew that you at least knew the "golden rule", to never tell as one could loose their life behind it...ya me too, been there done that...it is engrained in me. My family lives by a no snitching rule...one member is doing 15yrs as "punishment" for not giving up another...that is how serious it is...loyalty is everything. They are in their 20's so they are going through what we did!!!!

 

Thank you for the 50 congrats....now what to do with the next 50!

[pureinheart]

 

So I had the discussion with my MM. I told him I wanted to have the right to decide whether or not to disclose our relationship to the BS. I told him I wanted a third alternative besides staying hidden in the relationship or choosing to leave it.

 

We discussed the pros and cons with the secrecy, especially since ours is a long distance relationship. We discussed whether we think I am compliant in his deception of his wife today or not.

 

He told me if the BS calls me it is up to me how much I want to disclose to her. He does not expect me to lie.

 

He told me that I have the right to "send his world spinning" through disclosing the affair to his wife, and his world is already spinning anyway .

 

So I feel pretty good that this option is now available to me. There is a difference between having an out and deciding not to use it, and not having the choice whether to use the out or not since you are not allowed to.

 

I love that my MM and I can discuss pretty much anything.

 

I love how you guys respect each other...that is so very rare. You guys are so considerate of each other and the reason for this is due to the fact that you are best friends first, A second...this is the major difference.

 

ExDM and me had the same thing, as we can talk any way to the other. At times this was not good as both of us really needed to start acting like big people for a change. I have to say we were both under a lot of pressure.

[pureinheart]

So my IC keeps reminding me (that he is stone cold in love).

 

With regard to his M being 'very destructive', I have to say that due to his pretending (and this IS his fault) all outward appearances make it seem like a good M. This is what his IC is getting him to understand and break away from. So ironic that [false] pleasantries can lead to destruction. She thought he loved her because he always showed up and was nice. Hard to get over that when it's been demonstrated throughout the the entire M. I do feel for her, what a shock it must be. That is why I don't want us together until he finishes IC successfully. I'm very realistic of the fact he could carry that aspect on into another R/M. He is doing some hard work upon this discovery of himself.

 

What she adds to the destruction is unrealistic expectations (among other things). Hopefully her IC will get her through this self-destructive behavior.

 

I don't mean to t/j but I wanted to defend the fact that I don't unrealistically see their M as destructive without backing up how I know it. I didn't want it to be a blanket excuse to fill my own sense of satisfaction.

 

Sometimes it is what it is...no pun intended for the poster It_Is_What_It_Is...lol....

 

No I know, it made me rather sad that exDM's family dynamics were so destructive, I took no pleasure in their pain either. OMG WF, of the stuff I personally saw just sickened me concerning the dysfunction...quite literally it was worse than mine, and that IMO was BAD!

 

Also just to make clear, as it could sound like I wanted exDM's M to end...I wanted to see him happy...just like if I saw someone, anyone do something or was in something destructive, I say my opinion if they are close to me, meaning there is an established R. After that, I'm done and will continue the friendship if I can handle the type of destruction...if not I bail...there is no desire to change anyone because I am not God and don't want to be

 

Hey WF, my thoughts and prayers are with all of you guys, it's certainly not easy for any of you, and I am so sorry for what you are going through right now....