Unapologetic Married Man

[jennie-jennie]

It's just accepting reality the way it is and not how you want it to be - and being grateful for what you have.

 

I like that.

[White Flower]

Everything is relative. If someone has low expectations, wouldn't it be easier to meet and/or exceed them?

It's just accepting reality the way it is and not how you want it to be - and being grateful for what you have.

 

I could have high expectations about my first love re entering my life - and expect him to now leave his wife and kids, and move over continents and seas to be with me - or I could have realistic expectations and accept and enjoy the fact that one of my best friends is back in my life.

I agree. Whether high or low, the expectations are ours as we see fit for our own needs. I can waste years crying over the fact MM isn't living with me, M to me, but I would rather enjoy what I CAN have and not waste any energy suffering over the rest.

 

I think there is so much pressure in society to 'shoot for the best' (excluding what is best for US) and if we don't 'stand up and get it' (what everybody else expects) then we are deemed to a place of condemnation, insults, and an overall feeling of loathing. Pop culture is what it is. Yet, we really are getting most of our needs met otherwise we wouldn't do it. I must say that MM has given me more from an A than I got in my M.

[Hazyhead]

As I have pointed out earlier, I don't see a discrepance between being unapologetic and feeling sorrow, between being unapologetic and having inner turmoil.

 

Ie I have inner turmoil but I choose to stay in both relationships while I figure out how to deal with it, thus I can still be unapologetic about my choice.

 

Unapologetic is about taking a stand that I will not be ashamed of my choice to be an OW or a MM today - even if for some of us OW/MM we do hope we will not be the OW/MM forever.

 

Thank you Jennie; I do get what you mean. I admire your understanding nature where he is concerned; you're an incredibly patient woman (even though I don't think you fully realise this), not saying that he doesn't deserve your patience, exactly, just that you deserve to have your dreams fulfilled as much by him for you as you do for him (if that makes sense - it does to me but, y'know, the wine...). My opinion was never that you should b apologetic as this thread was about him, but you know him best.

[norajane]

My MM is staying married because he is being true to himself. Why would I want him to apologize for that?

 

He never promised me he would divorce his wife. I have chosen to stay with him in spite of that. Why would I then want an apology for that?

 

That's where this whole thing started. I did feel that he was doing wrong by me, but now I am starting to realize that what he is doing is being true to himself.

 

Why do you try so hard and bend your mind and emotions into a pretzel to accommodate him?

 

When will you be true to yourself and admit hanging onto the fringe of this guy's marriage isn't really it? When will you stop spending your free time researching the psychology of a cheater, and the split-self explanations for why he won't change anything about his marriage, and when will you stop rationalizing and making excuses for him?

 

When will it be time for Jennie to unapologetically tell MM to f*ck off and get a life of her own?

[jj33]

Interesting question Jen. I think it makes a lot of sense. I know xMM was unapologetic.

 

For many men its a coping mechanism. They feel for whatever reason that they cant leave or shouldnt leave and having an A is their best way of coping with the situation.

 

In some situations its selfish, in some its not. I suspect the wives who know but prefer to turn a blind eye than to say something or to divorce, because they dont really want to upset the status quo arent posting on these boards. But I dont think its that unusual.

 

Lots of women know their husbands are unfaithful but feel in the bigger scheme of things that it isnt what is important in their marriage.

 

I have a friend from a non Western culture who thinks its unrealistic to expect men to be faithful and accepts the fact that her H is with other women when they are apart. I know I couldnt do that but everyone is different.

 

I think the responses we get on the board are skewed. Wives who dont feel betrayed probably arent posting. Im not saying they are a majority, but everyone sees things differently.

[turnstone]

No, that is not it. He doesn't have much problems with guilt. He did initially, in the beginning of our relationship, but he pretty much overcame that. It is about being seen as the bad guy.

But apparently no one actually *does* see him as the bad guy. So surely he needs to save his unapology for when his family and friends *do* know he's been unfaithful to his wife and *do* start seeing him as the bad guy.

 

You are not unapologetic "to someone", you are unapologetic "about something".

For an apology to be effective, the person it relates to needs to be aware of its existence, it would seem the same needs to be true of an unapology. Unless its only for his benefit.

 

He is unapologetic about being married and at the same time having an extramarital relationship, about not ending one relationship before starting the other. There are reasons why he has chosen to do it this way.

Yes, its obvious that's what he's unapologetic about even when there's no one to be unapologetic too, yet. And if that doesn't smack of guilt up to the ying yang, I don't know what does!

[jennie-jennie]

He can only claim a state of "disapology" because his wife and kids don't even know he has anything to apologize for. It would be very different if they knew. He is stringing you along Jennie Jennie, even has you so convinced of his sincerity that you try to convince the jaded citizens of loveshack. He is good. Does he read loveshack?

 

"Disapology" - is that a made up word?

 

Unapologetic is a stand within yourself, that's where all emotions start.

 

I don't know how unapologetic my MM manages to be in reality, I believe it is a goal to strive towards though. I probably believe in it stronger than he does.

 

My MM does not read LS. He did during our NC period, so in that sense he was never truly in NC, but otherwise never. I don't write on LS to convince anyone, I write to share my thoughts, the thoughts that prove to be helpful to him and me, and to stand up for the rights of OW and MM, two groups of people who are generally loathed by society.

[jennie-jennie]

What a horrible thing to say (in bold). Is this your opinion or his?

 

Mine.

 

(10 characters necessary)

[jennie-jennie]

 

Wrong! You can be both.

 

You are unapologetic about something, then you can show that emotion to someone. Or are you saying that you should just be apologetic in general about your very existance to your spouse?

[jennie-jennie]

Can you say please how far away he lives and how often you see him in person. If you don't mostly email then do you use phone, IM and skype.

 

You sorta seem reluctant to answer these sorts of questions even where your country is.

 

It is up to us posters on LS to decide how much personal information to share about our relationships. It is not exactly like the other posters on LS have proved themselves to be trustworthy. :laugh:

 

It is a long distance relationship where we meet as often as we can, which varies throughout the year. In between we use of course the means available to us.

 

I don't see why it matters, it is clear to me that the patterns are obviously the same as in other extramarital relationships.

[jennie-jennie]

Why do you try so hard and bend your mind and emotions into a pretzel to accommodate him?

 

When will you be true to yourself and admit hanging onto the fringe of this guy's marriage isn't really it? When will you stop spending your free time researching the psychology of a cheater, and the split-self explanations for why he won't change anything about his marriage, and when will you stop rationalizing and making excuses for him?

 

When will it be time for Jennie to unapologetically tell MM to f*ck off and get a life of her own?

 

I actually enjoy exploring the mind of a WS. Does that bother you?

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting question Jen. I think it makes a lot of sense. I know xMM was unapologetic.

 

For many men its a coping mechanism. They feel for whatever reason that they cant leave or shouldnt leave and having an A is their best way of coping with the situation.

 

In some situations its selfish, in some its not.

 

Exactly. Glad to hear you share my view.

[jennie-jennie]

But apparently no one actually *does* see him as the bad guy. So surely he needs to save his unapology for when his family and friends *do* know he's been unfaithful to his wife and *do* start seeing him as the bad guy.

 

 

For an apology to be effective, the person it relates to needs to be aware of its existence, it would seem the same needs to be true of an unapology. Unless its only for his benefit.

 

 

Yes, its obvious that's what he's unapologetic about even when there's no one to be unapologetic too, yet. And if that doesn't smack of guilt up to the ying yang, I don't know what does!

 

It's interesting to me that just about everyone seems to feel the emotion of being apologetic or unapologetic has to do with the wife's knowledge of the affair. Whether the wife knows or not, the MM knows, and when he interacts with her it is with this knowledge.

 

Just think of all the times TV programs contain stories of infidelity. Imagine my MM and his wife watching one of these shows. Hear her clearly state her view of condemning the act of infidelity. This is a very clear example in my opinion of how it matters whether the MM feels unapologetic or not whether the wife knows or not. If he has come to terms with his infidelity and is unapologetic about it, his interaction with his wife in this case will be much easier for him to handle. To the detriment of all BSs, I bet, which is probably why you are fighting the idea so hard.

[pureinheart]

Tell me about it! That is why so many remarry after D or being widowed--they just can't handle the change of being alone. Women handle change ever so much better. At least most women.

 

That is why women tend to file for D more often than men do.

 

Oh most definitely WF, this is why men will swing from one vine to the other, although before they do this they must be sure that the vine they are swinging to is totally stable for them....it takes them awhile to figure this out, meaning the woman in waiting could be the most stable and sound person in the world yet if they have lived in confusion it could take a very long time for them to understand that it is "ok".

 

This is why it is so frustrating for many women who are ready to commit...some of them I am quite surprized some M'ed even the first time!

[pureinheart]

Hey is there something going on with LS or is it my pc...the things I quote from others are saying it's coming from the one quoting.

[pureinheart]

There are two people on here who claim to be happy with their OW status. I'm pretty sure they aren't. Here's one example. I'm sure she she will discount her feelings and say that things are all rosy now, but I'm sure they aren't.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215241&page=2

 

I'm sure she will rationalize her words. But no matter now she paints her relationship now, I believe she feels this way most of the time. Her "sweetheart" chooses to stay with his wife, and I believe he will stay there indefinitely.

 

Hi TM,

 

This was brought up in another thread and FA explained what was going on...FA please correct me if needed...she was going through a rough time and has changed her mind, it was a rant more than anything...we all do that.

 

I too have been sooooo upset with exDM, although had I handled things a bit more mature, I possible could have helped both of us a bit better. I was going through so much during his D...he was going to IC and many things were being pulled out from his childhood as he was severely abused...I am not saying this is an excuse, although when things are first being discovered it is quite devasting.

 

I am disappointed in myself as I scream compassion everywhere, yet I had little at the time for those who were closest to me...possibly I found the lack thereof ugly and found myself ugly.

 

I really want to say this to all...I am really glad that most of the posters on LS promote and encourage councelling.

[pureinheart]

I have seen FA's journey from being an apologetic OW to becoming an unapologetic OW. She is a perfect example of how liberating this change of inner stand is!

 

I totally agree that the first step comes from within, if it doesn't start there, then I would seriously question if it is truely real.

 

I can understand completely where your MM is coming from...this is a difficult step...to be free when we have been put in a box all of our lives because we thought we had to be there.

 

Then someone comes along and communicates a different way...freedom...hummm, we have heard this term yet do we really understand it true meaning.

 

Being a sixties child (and you too Jennie...lol), I fought for freedom, fought against the "establishment" as a teenager and felt good about that, then I ended up a part of it, although still remained "unplugged"....Jennie, they could never fully get me.

 

We are rebels with a cause...the cause of freedom.

[White Flower]

I actually enjoy exploring the mind of a WS. Does that bother you?

FWIW, I validate your hobby. It really is interesting, isn't it?

 

By the way, a lot of people with diabetes write books on diabetes just as knitters write books on knitting. I see no problem is studying your MM's mind at all. You want to understand him. I'm sure his W doesn't know him as much as you do about him, but that is not a slant against Ws. Yet, I'm sure he becomes more self-aware as you become more aware about him. That's got to be a good thing.

[White Flower]

I have seen FA's journey from being an apologetic OW to becoming an unapologetic OW. She is a perfect example of how liberating this change of inner stand is!

I have noticed this too. She is much happier and stronger. Most of her needs are being met as well and like I said before, I didn't get half of that in my M.

[turnstone]

It's interesting to me that just about everyone seems to feel the emotion of being apologetic or unapologetic has to do with the wife's knowledge of the affair. Whether the wife knows or not, the MM knows, and when he interacts with her it is with this knowledge.

 

Just think of all the times TV programs contain stories of infidelity. Imagine my MM and his wife watching one of these shows. Hear her clearly state her view of condemning the act of infidelity. This is a very clear example in my opinion of how it matters whether the MM feels unapologetic or not whether the wife knows or not. If he has come to terms with his infidelity and is unapologetic about it, his interaction with his wife in this case will be much easier for him to handle. To the detriment of all BSs, I bet, which is probably why you are fighting the idea so hard.

 

I'm not a BS, lets get that straight right now. Secondly, it seems that its more you who's fighting and defending. I know what the situation is, its obvious, therefore there's no need for me to try to prove or fight for anything

 

If I were his wife I wouldn't give two flying hoohas about his apology or his lack of apology, all I would care about would be knowing he was playing with my life without my consent or knowledge.

[jennie-jennie]

It's interesting to me that just about everyone seems to feel the emotion of being apologetic or unapologetic has to do with the wife's knowledge of the affair. Whether the wife knows or not, the MM knows, and when he interacts with her it is with this knowledge.

 

Just think of all the times TV programs contain stories of infidelity. Imagine my MM and his wife watching one of these shows. Hear her clearly state her view of condemning the act of infidelity. This is a very clear example in my opinion of how it matters whether the MM feels unapologetic or not whether the wife knows or not. If he has come to terms with his infidelity and is unapologetic about it, his interaction with his wife in this case will be much easier for him to handle. To the detriment of all BSs, I bet, which is probably why you are fighting the idea so hard.

 

I'm not a BS, lets get that straight right now. Secondly, it seems that its more you who's fighting and defending. I know what the situation is, its obvious, therefore there's no need for me to try to prove or fight for anything

 

If I were his wife I wouldn't give two flying hoohas about his apology or his lack of apology, all I would care about would be knowing he was playing with my life without my consent or knowledge.

 

Sorry, for putting you in the wrong box. The last sentence of my post above should then read:

"To the detriment of all BSs, I bet, which is probably why they are fighting the idea so hard."

[moaningmyrtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jennie-jennie

I have seen FA's journey from being an apologetic OW to becoming an unapologetic OW. She is a perfect example of how liberating this change of inner stand is!

 

 

 

I have noticed this too. She is much happier and stronger. Most of her needs are being met as well and like I said before, I didn't get half of that in my M.

 

Frankly I don't get the impression that FA is happier, more liberated or whatever.

 

But in any case isn't it the unapologetic MM we're talking about in this thread? FA may style herself "unapologetic", but I haven't noticed anything FA has said about her MM having been cured from his previous status as "not honest", "selfish", "cruel" (her words not mine).

 

At best all that's happened is that FA may have learned to become more content with him being this way. If she expects less than she did before, then I suppose it is likely that her (lessened) needs will be met.

[OWoman]

It's interesting to me that just about everyone seems to feel the emotion of being apologetic or unapologetic has to do with the wife's knowledge of the affair.

 

...which would imply that a MM could only be unapologetic post-Dday. I for one don't think that's true - I think that the way one conducts oneself prior to Dday can be apologetic or unapologetic, or both (ie, conflicted). I think those who've made peace with their status are unapologetic - which is not necessarily the same as the serial "cake-eater" type MM who relishes being a WS and doesn't care (or, doesn't care enough) about those "victims" of his behaviour who may get hurt along the way. The unapologetic MM accepts that this is the best he can do under the circumstances, he stops hating himself for what he is doing, accepts responsibilty for his actions (and does not try to pass them off on someone else, like the "evil OW who lured him in against his will", or the "nasty BS who drove him to it"...) and does not try to hide what he is - either from himself or those in whom he may confide.

 

Post-Dday, how would an unapologetic MM manifest? Some here seem to think it equates with an uncaring MM - one who would laugh in the face of his BW and tell her to deal with it, shrug his shoulders and walk off to shag the OW; or who would sell the OW down the river without a moment's hesitation, shrugging her off to his W as a "meaningless dalliance" and then proving the point by not sparing her a minute's further thought as he set about "hysterical bonding" with the BW. Again, I don't think that's the case.

 

To become unapologetic, self-reflectivity and introspection are needed - and the FYou-type of MM isn't the type for that. That kind of behaviour doesn't mesh well with reflection and consideration.

[PhoenixRise]

Let me just say as a FBS who posted in this thread...I am not angry about the idea of a UMM, not afraid of it, not even fighting against it.

 

I disagree with it as a positive goal. Not just because it further harms the wife. IMO since the MM is already cheating, this further harm to the wife due to a change in H internal stance about it is not that big of a consideration. It bothered me because of what it says about the UMM as a man. It says to me that MM is a man who is just OK with lying. It says he is a man who is ok within himself with betraying the people around him while he actively encourages their trust. I am floored that anybody would see his ability to do this as a good thing.

 

In fact, I think this stance only works in an OW favor if she is willing to be the OW forever if need be, and for as long as the MM stays married and never seeks an open, full time relationship with her. If MM ever does divorce and seek the open relationship with his FOW, FOW would WANT him not to be the kind of man who would be ok with betraying her.

[OWoman]

Wow. So now "coping" is the new acceptable term for cake eating.

 

The term "cake eating" makes me pretty sick to my stomach TBH

 

Sometimes "cheating" is a coping device. I'd hazard a guess that this was so in my H's case. He could spend the rest of his life being abused, losing more of his self-esteem and soul every day, watching his kids implode and being powerless to do anything about it - or he could claim some space for himself, start to assert a presence, a sense of self, and use that space to develop a healthy ego, proper boundaries and healthy perspectives - and ultimately cast off the oppression and abuse, break free from the shackles of that unhealthy way of living and seeing, and become a whole, healthy person again.

 

Was the "cheating" a laudable behaviour? perhaps not. But was it pathological? OTC - the pathology was already there, because of the M. The "cheating" helped to break out of the pathology.

 

I enjoy cake, but too much can make you