Unapologetic Married Man

[pureinheart]

...which would imply that a MM could only be unapologetic post-Dday. I for one don't think that's true - I think that the way one conducts oneself prior to Dday can be apologetic or unapologetic, or both (ie, conflicted). I think those who've made peace with their status are unapologetic - which is not necessarily the same as the serial "cake-eater" type MM who relishes being a WS and doesn't care (or, doesn't care enough) about those "victims" of his behaviour who may get hurt along the way. The unapologetic MM accepts that this is the best he can do under the circumstances, he stops hating himself for what he is doing, accepts responsibilty for his actions (and does not try to pass them off on someone else, like the "evil OW who lured him in against his will", or the "nasty BS who drove him to it"...) and does not try to hide what he is - either from himself or those in whom he may confide.

 

Post-Dday, how would an unapologetic MM manifest? Some here seem to think it equates with an uncaring MM - one who would laugh in the face of his BW and tell her to deal with it, shrug his shoulders and walk off to shag the OW; or who would sell the OW down the river without a moment's hesitation, shrugging her off to his W as a "meaningless dalliance" and then proving the point by not sparing her a minute's further thought as he set about "hysterical bonding" with the BW. Again, I don't think that's the case.

 

To become unapologetic, self-reflectivity and introspection are needed - and the FYou-type of MM isn't the type for that. That kind of behaviour doesn't mesh well with reflection and consideration.

 

Hi OWoman...I believe this would manifest in his heart and mind, and this could be pre- or post D-Day.

[pureinheart]

Wow. So now "coping" is the new acceptable term for cake eating.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

Nobody cares if you explore the mind of the WS. But most of us don't see you "exploring" his mind. We see you making excuses for him.

If you want to make excuses, great. But to hide behind some psychological theory isn't helpful to anyone. Most of all, you.

And knowing why someone behaves as they do, doesn't make their behavior acceptable.

A psychologist may know why a heroin addict takes heroin. That doesn't mean the addict should continue to shoot up.

 

Hi JT,

 

Having an EMR is sending out a message, whether it be large or small, and there are many reasons. Yes, it can be used as a coping mechanism...A's are not a one size fits all (I really like that term...who said that here first? Anyway, thank you for that term, it saves a lot of typing.)

 

Not all A's stem from the seedy back alley motels with a needle hanging out of their arm...some are because there is love.

[crazycatlady]

What an interesting thread. Jennie - all of yours tend to be interesting.

 

I have to agree, that you can be sorry and unapologentic about the situation which I take to mean more that things aren't going to change. Not that you can't make a choice or don't want to make a choice, but the fact that you like things as they are, wife and ow.

 

Which I think is basically what my H told me on our D-day.

 

But...sometimes I wonder Jennie, is your MM being totally honest about the lack of everything but a financial responsibility at home? Surely love must still be there - or else why talk about it? some type of sex, or else why isn't she wondering why he isn't at least pestering her about it.... It does seem strange and makes me wonder how much truth you are getting in that reguard. But that doesn't change the fact that I always see your point that you are tring to make...might not agree, but I fully understand it.

 

CCL

[anne1707]

I have a degree in Psychology, and think that most of the split self theories, etc are simply reasons to excuse bad behavior.

 

Ditto and ditto

[bentnotbroken]

Ditto and ditto

 

Here here.

[pureinheart]

Uh yeah. I think I'd know that. Not too long ago, I ended an affair that went off and on for darn near 20 years.

While I appreciate you thoughts, I stand by my statement. I have a degree in Psychology, and think that most of the split self theories, etc are simply reasons to excuse bad behavior.

Obviously, my opinion differs from others, and that's perfectly ok with me.

 

You have a degree in Psychology and stayed in an A for 20 yrs, of which you now hate....I find that interesting.

 

I might have missed it, although I didn't mention anything about Split Self Personalities.

[jennie-jennie]

Frankly I don't get the impression that FA is happier, more liberated or whatever.

 

But in any case isn't it the unapologetic MM we're talking about in this thread? FA may style herself "unapologetic", but I haven't noticed anything FA has said about her MM having been cured from his previous status as "not honest", "selfish", "cruel" (her words not mine).

 

At best all that's happened is that FA may have learned to become more content with him being this way. If she expects less than she did before, then I suppose it is likely that her (lessened) needs will be met.

 

I don't think it is about lesser expectations, I think it is about different interpretations. A lot lies in the eyes of the beholder.

[jennie-jennie]

...which would imply that a MM could only be unapologetic post-Dday. I for one don't think that's true - I think that the way one conducts oneself prior to Dday can be apologetic or unapologetic, or both (ie, conflicted). I think those who've made peace with their status are unapologetic - which is not necessarily the same as the serial "cake-eater" type MM who relishes being a WS and doesn't care (or, doesn't care enough) about those "victims" of his behaviour who may get hurt along the way. The unapologetic MM accepts that this is the best he can do under the circumstances, he stops hating himself for what he is doing, accepts responsibilty for his actions (and does not try to pass them off on someone else, like the "evil OW who lured him in against his will", or the "nasty BS who drove him to it"...) and does not try to hide what he is - either from himself or those in whom he may confide.

 

Post-Dday, how would an unapologetic MM manifest? Some here seem to think it equates with an uncaring MM - one who would laugh in the face of his BW and tell her to deal with it, shrug his shoulders and walk off to shag the OW; or who would sell the OW down the river without a moment's hesitation, shrugging her off to his W as a "meaningless dalliance" and then proving the point by not sparing her a minute's further thought as he set about "hysterical bonding" with the BW. Again, I don't think that's the case.

 

To become unapologetic, self-reflectivity and introspection are needed - and the FYou-type of MM isn't the type for that. That kind of behaviour doesn't mesh well with reflection and consideration.

 

Great post, OWoman. This is exactly what I am getting at.

[jennie-jennie]

Wow. So now "coping" is the new acceptable term for cake eating.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

Nobody cares if you explore the mind of the WS. But most of us don't see you "exploring" his mind. We see you making excuses for him.

If you want to make excuses, great. But to hide behind some psychological theory isn't helpful to anyone. Most of all, you.

And knowing why someone behaves as they do, doesn't make their behavior acceptable.

A psychologist may know why a heroin addict takes heroin. That doesn't mean the addict should continue to shoot up.

 

As I said, different interpretations of the same behavior. Much lies in the eyes of the beholder.

[jennie-jennie]

...which would imply that a MM could only be unapologetic post-Dday. I for one don't think that's true - I think that the way one conducts oneself prior to Dday can be apologetic or unapologetic, or both (ie, conflicted). I think those who've made peace with their status are unapologetic - which is not necessarily the same as the serial "cake-eater" type MM who relishes being a WS and doesn't care (or, doesn't care enough) about those "victims" of his behaviour who may get hurt along the way. The unapologetic MM accepts that this is the best he can do under the circumstances, he stops hating himself for what he is doing, accepts responsibilty for his actions (and does not try to pass them off on someone else, like the "evil OW who lured him in against his will", or the "nasty BS who drove him to it"...) and does not try to hide what he is - either from himself or those in whom he may confide.

 

Post-Dday, how would an unapologetic MM manifest? Some here seem to think it equates with an uncaring MM - one who would laugh in the face of his BW and tell her to deal with it, shrug his shoulders and walk off to shag the OW; or who would sell the OW down the river without a moment's hesitation, shrugging her off to his W as a "meaningless dalliance" and then proving the point by not sparing her a minute's further thought as he set about "hysterical bonding" with the BW. Again, I don't think that's the case.

 

To become unapologetic, self-reflectivity and introspection are needed - and the FYou-type of MM isn't the type for that. That kind of behaviour doesn't mesh well with reflection and consideration.

 

Let me just say as a FBS who posted in this thread...I am not angry about the idea of a UMM, not afraid of it, not even fighting against it.

 

I disagree with it as a positive goal. Not just because it further harms the wife. IMO since the MM is already cheating, this further harm to the wife due to a change in H internal stance about it is not that big of a consideration. It bothered me because of what it says about the UMM as a man. It says to me that MM is a man who is just OK with lying. It says he is a man who is ok within himself with betraying the people around him while he actively encourages their trust. I am floored that anybody would see his ability to do this as a good thing.

 

In fact, I think this stance only works in an OW favor if she is willing to be the OW forever if need be, and for as long as the MM stays married and never seeks an open, full time relationship with her. If MM ever does divorce and seek the open relationship with his FOW, FOW would WANT him not to be the kind of man who would be ok with betraying her.

 

Phoenix, the post OWoman wrote above answers your misgivings pretty well in my opinion.

 

I believe it is better for the BS as well if her husband is unapologetic. It makes him more in contact with his inner emotions and more able to make a real decision about what he wants come Dday. Don't we both benefit, OW and BS, of a man who has matured and accepts himself for what he is and then strives to become a better man?

 

It is the apologetic MM who is likely to suck up on Dday and then go off and shag his OW at the first opportunity.

 

As for betraying the OW/fOW, the MM in a sense is doing that already by staying married. He already has practice of telling the OW that he is having sex with another woman. Hopefully this makes for a more open communication once/if the OW/MM become a couple.

 

By accepting that the MM has a right to be unapologetic about his behaviour, the OW has to look at the MM's betrayal of her by staying married in a different way. It is not so much about betraying her as of staying true to himself.

Edited April 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

What an interesting thread. Jennie - all of yours tend to be interesting.

 

I have to agree, that you can be sorry and unapologentic about the situation which I take to mean more that things aren't going to change. Not that you can't make a choice or don't want to make a choice, but the fact that you like things as they are, wife and ow.

 

Which I think is basically what my H told me on our D-day.

 

But...sometimes I wonder Jennie, is your MM being totally honest about the lack of everything but a financial responsibility at home? Surely love must still be there - or else why talk about it? some type of sex, or else why isn't she wondering why he isn't at least pestering her about it.... It does seem strange and makes me wonder how much truth you are getting in that reguard. But that doesn't change the fact that I always see your point that you are tring to make...might not agree, but I fully understand it.

 

CCL

 

My MM loves his wife. I believe he always will, just like I will always love my exSOs. But he has moved on when it comes to romance and sex, and who in that sense is his primary partner.

 

It is indeed very strange that his wife does not question the lack of sex. Maybe she does not want to rock the boat? She might very well be on to something. Maybe she is kind of grateful since she already many years before her husband's extramarital affair had problems with her libido? Perhaps she is thinking it has to do with the ED he experienced in the beginning of our relationship when he was the most torn by guilt?

 

I am glad you are enjoying my threads. And don't worry, I trust my MM totally and I have good reason to do so.

 

Interesting what you said about your husband. That is yet another kind of unapologetic MM in my opinion. I hope you are doing okay now after Dday.

[jennie-jennie]

The statement about not giving her up...I understand where that was coming from. Its hard to explain but it basically stems from his being tired of fighting and lying about it all. He's already tried to give her up repeatedly on his own and couldn't do it.

 

I borrowed this quote from your thread, CCL. I think it is telling: the MM who repeatedly tried to end the affair but unsuccessfully. There comes a time when he decides to make peace with this. That is when he can become unapologetic. For your husband this carried through Dday, he is not prepared to give up the OW.

Edited April 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[NoIDidn't]

Based on the definition of UMM in this thread, I'd say my H was/is an unapologetic MM. I get that unapologetic doesn't mean that they aren't sorry for the pain caused, but that they accept who and what was revealed in the process. My H is sorry that I got hurt, but feels that what came after - and what he learned during - was worth it. He feels that I didn't deserve the pain, but that it still was a part of a learning experience that we may have needed to go through (on some level). Everyone that we know, knows about his A. Some even know the OW. But he's not hiding in shame over what he did. He's not reveling in it, as Jennie's MM appears to be doing (but only with her and her family/friends). It was part of a process for him. Something that should not have to feel guilt about for the rest of his life.

 

Sure, he wouldn't do it again as the lies and deceit hurt him and his loved ones. But he will not apologize for it being a part of his past. And he would feel that way even if we divorced.

 

The way the UMM is being presented in the OP is one-sided. Its about a guy that is still cheating, hasn't and likely won't be making a choice (W or OW), and is saying that he's not going to apologize for being in the position he's in. There is another side to being a UMM. I don't think this state only applies to the currently (and secretly) cheating.

[pureinheart]

What an interesting thread. Jennie - all of yours tend to be interesting.

 

I have to agree, that you can be sorry and unapologentic about the situation which I take to mean more that things aren't going to change. Not that you can't make a choice or don't want to make a choice, but the fact that you like things as they are, wife and ow.

 

Which I think is basically what my H told me on our D-day.

 

But...sometimes I wonder Jennie, is your MM being totally honest about the lack of everything but a financial responsibility at home? Surely love must still be there - or else why talk about it? some type of sex, or else why isn't she wondering why he isn't at least pestering her about it.... It does seem strange and makes me wonder how much truth you are getting in that reguard. But that doesn't change the fact that I always see your point that you are tring to make...might not agree, but I fully understand it.

 

CCL

 

Hey CCL, yes I agree, every single thread she has started I have been freed from something...lol...I receive much freedom from this particular board of which I am in desparate need of.

 

I agree with the "rock the boat" thing that Jennie brought up, and also I lived in a M that was kinda, I do my thing and you do yours, so this is a possibility also....as she might not care, hell she might be having an A....exDM'd W did many times!

[jennie-jennie]

Based on the definition of UMM in this thread' date=' I'd say my H was/is an unapologetic MM. I get that unapologetic doesn't mean that they aren't sorry for the pain caused, but that they accept who and what was revealed in the process. My H is sorry that I got hurt, but feels that what came after - and what he learned during - was worth it. He feels that I didn't deserve the pain, but that it still was a part of a learning experience that we may have needed to go through (on some level). Everyone that we know, knows about his A. Some even know the OW. But he's not hiding in shame over what he did. [/quote']This is exactly what I am talking about.

He's not reveling in it, as Jennie's MM appears to be doing (but only with her and her family/friends).

Where did you get this from?

It was part of a process for him. Something that should not have to feel guilt about for the rest of his life.

 

Sure, he wouldn't do it again as the lies and deceit hurt him and his loved ones. But he will not apologize for it being a part of his past. And he would feel that way even if we divorced.

I totally agree with this. And hopefully when/if our relationship ends one way or the other my MM will be in the same position as your husband, having learnt something from the process.

The way the UMM is being presented in the OP is one-sided. Its about a guy that is still cheating, hasn't and likely won't be making a choice (W or OW), and is saying that he's not going to apologize for being in the position he's in.

My MM is still in the affair, yes, the process is not over. Some affairs are longer than others.

 

My MM once said that being with me he has had to "watch his personality burn up". There has been such fundamental changes deep inside him.

There is another side to being a UMM. I don't think this state only applies to the currently (and secretly) cheating.

I agree. You can be unapologetic both during and post an affair.

 

NID, do you consider your husband being an unapologetic MM being a good or bad thing in your case? For you? For him? For your relationship as a whole?

 

Thank you for your post, NID, I find it very interesting to hear a BS share her experience of a UMM.

Edited April 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[xxoo]

My H is sorry that I got hurt' date=' but feels that what came after - and what he learned during - was worth it. [/quote']

 

He feels that his learning was worth your pain? Is that for him to decide?

 

He won't do it again, because the pain was too much. Does that mean he can no longer learn? Of course not. There are many paths to learning, just as there were many paths to learning when he chose a path that betrayed you. He owes no apology for chosing a path of betrayal?

 

I agree that, ideally, a WS will come to a place of peace after the affair has resolved (however it resolves), and not carry guilt forever and always. But that peace is the result of coming clean and making amends to those you've deliberately betrayed for weeks, months, years. Having peace while actively betraying your family isn't unapologetic; it's numbing yourself to their pain.

[silktricks]

He feels that his learning was worth your pain? Is that for him to decide?

 

He won't do it again, because the pain was too much. Does that mean he can no longer learn? Of course not. There are many paths to learning, just as there were many paths to learning when he chose a path that betrayed you. He owes no apology for chosing a path of betrayal?

This is a true statement, of course. However, (speaking for me and my husband, not NID and her's...) sometimes only the "worst" path is the only one that actually gives you the life lessons that initiate the learning.

 

My husband doesn't feel/say the things that NID's does, in that he has often said that he wishes he could undo what was done. But, we both know that's an impossibility. We both learned an immense amount, though, and one of the most important lessons we both learned was the importance of forgiveness - and the fact is that I doubt either of us would now have as healthy an outlook on life if he had not cheated.

 

People err. It's part of the human condition.

 

I agree that, ideally, a WS will come to a place of peace after the affair has resolved (however it resolves), and not carry guilt forever and always. But that peace is the result of coming clean and making amends to those you've deliberately betrayed for weeks, months, years. Having peace while actively betraying your family isn't unapologetic; it's numbing yourself to their pain.

 

I don't know that you are right here. I don't think it is a result of making amends. I think the peace is a result of realizing and accepting that we are all human and all make sometimes wickedly disastrous "mistakes". I think the peace comes from inside. For some coming clean and making amends may help them find peace, but accepting yourself is IMO the key - and that acceptance may be found without ever coming clean in the traditional sense. I (personally) don't think that it's particularly healthy to be accepting of yourself while continuing an affair, but that is my opinion, and undoubtedly isn't the same for everyone.

[crazycatlady]

My MM loves his wife. I believe he always will, just like I will always love my exSOs. But he has moved on when it comes to romance and sex, and who in that sense is his primary partner.

 

It is indeed very strange that his wife does not question the lack of sex. Maybe she does not want to rock the boat? She might very well be on to something. Maybe she is kind of grateful since she already many years before her husband's extramarital affair had problems with her libido? Perhaps she is thinking it has to do with the ED he experienced in the beginning of our relationship when he was the most torn by guilt?

 

I am glad you are enjoying my threads. And don't worry, I trust my MM totally and I have good reason to do so.

 

Interesting what you said about your husband. That is yet another kind of unapologetic MM in my opinion. I hope you are doing okay now after Dday.

 

I'm doing alright, thanks for asking. He's been very good about answering my questions when they pop up and they pop up at the oddest of times. And he's been very good at giving me what I need from him. And while sure he could be playing me, I can't live my life with that fear. And he has done things that have shown where he's at. Things most people wouldn't get, but I do.

 

If he giving her other types of intimacy, hugs and such? I know that can be done on a non-sexual level. I am not a huge toucher myself, I'm so uncomfortable with most people touching me that its not something I easily accept. I can handle it from my H, and from a very select few friends. Are they sharing that type of thing? SOmething that is soothing to the heart and soul but not sexual or even romantic - because its not romantic when I've done it with the few friends I can handle it from, its just worth and comfort and care. Sorry for the questions, I'm just wondering what if anything aside from financial she is getting from him. I don't think its healthy for humans to live without touching for very long. But then, I'm a cat person and touch is important.

 

I borrowed this quote from your thread, CCL. I think it is telling: the MM who repeatedly tried to end the affair but unsuccessfully. There comes a time when he decides to make peace with this. That is when he can become unapologetic. For your husband this carried through Dday, he is not prepared to give up the OW.

 

He couldn't promise to do something he had already failed to do himself. If he could have ended it without my ever knowing, he surely would have. Oddly enough, its fading now that he doesn't have to fight himself over it. Will it fade completely? I doubt it. But at least he's found some peace with it.

 

And that was the key, when he was torturing himself over what was going on, he was short changing me, her, and himself not to mention work, the kids everything. He couldn't give anyone what was needed because the guilt, the pressure, and uncertainty was all over the place.

 

While I think out in the open has made it easier for him to forgive himself - the first key and really more important then my forgiveness - for screwing up and allowing himself to fully love again. Your MM, Jennie, has managed to do this without going open. I'm not sure exactly how this will play out in the long run, but right now I think its going to let him give more to everyone involved. That is better for all involved.

 

I'll be honest, I feel for your MM's wife, Jennie. I hope she is getting what she needs out of this too. Its not a situation where I would get all my needs met which is mostly where my sympathy comes from. But if her needs are met, maybe she could learn to look past the betrayal when dday happens. Probably not, but maybe.

 

CCL

[Owl]

How does this:

 

The unapologetic MM accepts that this is the best he can do under the circumstances, he stops hating himself for what he is doing, accepts responsibilty for his actions (and does not try to pass them off on someone else, like the "evil OW who lured him in against his will", or the "nasty BS who drove him to it"...) and does not try to hide what he is - either from himself or those in whom he may confide.

 

Coincide with continuing to deceive his wife and family about his actions, and his feelings?

 

I get that he may not regret cheating, but still regret hurting hose around him...but how does he stop hating himself for hurting others if he still keeps doing the behavior that he knows will hurt them? How does he "not try to hide what he is"...and still not tell his wife the truth of what's going on in their lives and marriage?

 

Doesn't add up for me.

 

I can see how someone could look back on an affair that ended their marriage and decide that it was the best thing for them to do...but somehow deciding that what they're doing is the right thing four years into the affair and STILL no closer to actually doing anything to resolve the situation...and claim that it was the right thing to do. That's just rationalization and justification...its an excuse to let themselves keep doing what they're doing with no regard for those that will actually be hurt by their actions.

 

I'd also like to add in the thought that you need to stop blaming society for his 'situation' at the moment.

 

Society never held him at gunpoint and forced him to swear to his wife that he would be faithful...and then turn around and break that promise for four years, all the while compounding that broken promise with years of deceit and lies.

 

He chose to take that path.

 

He COULD have opted to not get into a relationship with her in the first place. He COULD have asked for an open/polygamous relationship from the start.

 

Instead, he broke promises that he made...plain and simple.

 

And then proceeded to lie to her for four (and who knows how many more to come) years about it...so that he could maintain the situation so that he could have her AND you simultaneously.

 

He's getting some needs met by you...and still getting some needs met by her. Again, pretty cut and dry.

 

I get that he doesn't owe you an apology. I can accept that he's decided that he's doing the right thing for himself...but none of that negates the "apology" owed to his wife and family for both his broken promises and deceit for years.

 

If he truly was unapologetic...he'd take action already. If he felt it was best for everyone, he would have long since fixed the situation. But the reality is, he knows that what he's doing ISN'T best for everyone...and besides, taking action would cut half the women out of his life. He's not willing to do so...hasn't been for four years, and probably won't ever be is my guess.

[xxoo]

This is a true statement, of course. However, (speaking for me and my husband, not NID and her's...) sometimes only the "worst" path is the only one that actually gives you the life lessons that initiate the learning.

 

Think of all the learning you'll miss out on if he doesn't continue to cheat!

 

Seriously, if the ends justify the means in his mind, then what motivation does he have to be honest and faithful, ever?

 

NID's husband says he would NOT do it again, as it was not worth the pain. Doesn't that make him apologetic?

 

I don't know that you are right here. I don't think it is a result of making amends. I think the peace is a result of realizing and accepting that we are all human and all make sometimes wickedly disastrous "mistakes". I think the peace comes from inside. For some coming clean and making amends may help them find peace, but accepting yourself is IMO the key - and that acceptance may be found without ever coming clean in the traditional sense. I (personally) don't think that it's particularly healthy to be accepting of yourself while continuing an affair, but that is my opinion, and undoubtedly isn't the same for everyone.

 

If a person has peace about their choices, why be "in the closet" so to speak? If you truly have peace regarding your actions, why not expose them to the light?

 

If the peace does not withstand the light, it is truly peace? Or is it denial? Numbness? Personal "peace" can grow as compassion declines.

[Owl]

Wait, I get it!

 

He's not sorry he had an affair. He's not sorry he cheated on his wife. He's not sorry that he's lied to her for the past four years.

 

He is sorry that it's going to hurt her, but not enough to want to do anything to resolve that situation.

 

It's not that he's "unapologetic"...it's just that he's not unhappy enough to do something to change the situation.

 

I guess my real question is why do you really believe that it has taken him FOUR years of cheating/lying to his wife to get to this point, and accept that it's going to take him years more to actually do anything about it?

[xxoo]

He is sorry that it's going to hurt her, but not enough to want to do anything to resolve that situation.

 

Right. While previously he was sorry about the other things, he no longer is, and is now more comfortable hurting her.

 

It sounds to me as if, over the past 4 years, his compassion and conscience have declined, and his powers of justification have been improved. None of these are positive growth, imo.

[2sure]

This is mind boggling JJ.

 

I understand that affairs, infidelity, being MM or OW all vary from circumstance to circumstance, life to life. I believe that although I can indisputably say what is right and wrong for me and those around me...that I really cannot say what is right or wrong blindly for everyone.

 

But unapologetic, the way you use it , says: I'm not sorry. I understand other people think I am wrong, but I do not and I am not sorry.

 

And thats fine, especially because if either one of you were being eaten up by guilt, then you would be living in self inflicted pain...which I dont understand.

 

But at the same time you have to add that this type of "unapologetic" also means that the other people that are entwined in your lives do not know they may be being hurt, do not know the facts of their lives ...and YOU DONT CARE.

 

Thats fine too I guess, but you have to at least acknowledge that any affair is not simply about the 2 people having it. If that were the case it wouldnt be an "affair."

 

You can make it about you but you have to add that you just dont care about anyone else involved.

[silktricks]

Think of all the learning you'll miss out on if he doesn't continue to cheat!

 

Seriously, if the ends justify the means in his mind, then what motivation does he have to be honest and faithful, ever?

Whatever in the world did I say that made you think in any way that the ends justified the means in his mind????

 

As for the learning, if he would choose to cheat again, all he'd learn is how fast a divorce can happen .

 

I didn't say the ends justified the means, I said that sometimes you learn a lesson that possibly you need to learn because you've made a really bad error.

 

NID's husband says he would NOT do it again, as it was not worth the pain. Doesn't that make him apologetic?

I can't answer for someone I don't know. NID said no. That's that as far as I'm concerned. My husband was definitely apologetic. Otherwise we wouldn't still be together. However, he's also aware of the lessons we both learned, and there's no reason to continue to berate yourself over something that happened a long time ago. At some point you say - the lessons are valuable - I'll keep those. The guilt is only affecting me badly now - it's time to let that go.

 

If a person has peace about their choices, why be "in the closet" so to speak? If you truly have peace regarding your actions, why not expose them to the light?

 

If the peace does not withstand the light, it is truly peace? Or is it denial? Numbness? Personal "peace" can grow as compassion declines.

First - I think you are misunderstanding my point of view. Second, I don't like the whole idea of "unapologetic" when someone either has in the past or is continuing in actions that produce pain for someone else. I think an apology is an important part of helping OTHER people recover. I do not, however, think that reaching peace for ONESELF has much (if anything) to do with making amends to the OTHER people. I think it has to do with reaching an acceptance WITHIN yourself for yourself, and forgiving yourself.

 

As I said before, though, I don't think it is healthy to forgive yourself for something you ARE STILL DOING. That is, IMO just a cop out for giving yourself permission to continue doing whatever it is that you want to do - and hang the rest. I, however, am not everyone. My opinion is just that - my opinion. I don't believe that my opinion is valid for everyone in the entire world, and I don't pretend that my way of life works for everyone else.

 

If you want my personal OPINION - I personally think that anyone who says "this is who I am and what I need now so I'm going to forgive myself for it (therefore I am unapologetic)" is living in a fool's paradise. They haven't yet experienced any real repercussions of their actions (other than the guilt they may or may not be having - and I agree, they have probably made that decision so they no longer need to feel the guilt). They haven't SEEN the results of their actions.

 

And while I'm on a roll, I also agree with jthorne about the "split-self". But, like I said (a whole bunch of time) these are MY OPINIONs.

[donnamaybe]

He is not faring well at all having us both.

 

Um, yeah. Okay. Whatever you say.

 

Seems to me he is faring QUITE well, being completely unapologetic and still getting his way.