Unapologetic Married Man

[jennie-jennie]

JJ, this is sensational! My daughter and I used to "apologize" for everything...being born even I think.

 

I do a lot of things I don't like and I'm tired of beating myself up over it...my daughter is a nervous wreck.

 

Both of us have always tried to be what everyone else thought we should be...I even did it to her at times.

 

I have to say, your threads ALWAYS liberate me, they free me...hey home girl, who always can write a book on anything is a bit speechless. I will speak more when this has had a chance to be internalized. The opression is leaving, thanks Jennie ((((((((hugggs)))))))

 

:D You get it, Pure! We must have a similar way of thinking, you and I!

[anne1707]

I still claim it is not pointless, because contemplating whether a man like my MM could have been happy in a different society is helpful to both him and me in understanding his character and the situation at hand.

 

Has he suggested that he would be happy if it was possible to have a polygamous relationship with both his wife and you then? If so, then surely that would provide no resolution to the situation for you or his wife. It would be just carrying on with exactly the same scenario as the affair. This to me would suggest that he does not want to leave his wife and wants to stay married to her. That does not sound much like him having an exclusive relationship with you.

 

Jennie - I am not out to bash. You have a good heart and I just worry that he is taking advantage of you just as he is taking advantage of his wife.

[jennie-jennie]

So he's actually fed up with feeling guilty.

 

No, that is not it. He doesn't have much problems with guilt. He did initially, in the beginning of our relationship, but he pretty much overcame that. It is about being seen as the bad guy.

BTW, did you answer LB question about who he's being unapologetic *to*?

 

You are not unapologetic "to someone", you are unapologetic "about something".

 

His wife for cheating/lying/playing with her life/blah or to you for keeping you on the side?

 

He is unapologetic about being married and at the same time having an extramarital relationship, about not ending one relationship before starting the other. There are reasons why he has chosen to do it this way.

[pureinheart]

:D You get it, Pure! We must have a similar way of thinking, you and I!

 

Oh yes...and thank God for you...I have lived/worked/loved in a world with countless "rules". I feel like I have been "ruled" to death. I have always hated feeling/being controlled.

 

The last two years has been a journey of which I am learning how much I have let everyone elses views/opinions/expectations control me. at 15 yrs old I fell off the pedestal, I was deemed many things at this point, mainly unacceptable...no matter what I did, it was not good enouph, thus people pleasing is perfected.

 

I worked in an environment where perfection was the only option, thus many, many rules...ridiculous rules...rules to justify jobs as the lay-offs began. I literally wanted to tie my arms to my side to give supervision a visual concerning what was actually happening. A five minute job literally took 4 or 5 days to accomplish.

 

I smoked ciggs for several years, everybody made comments...said I'd never quit..whatever. Although was my "outward sin" that you could see and smell much different than the sin that they hid, that you couldn't see.

 

I do things right, and I do things wrong and will not apologize any longer...I am going to be who I am as no malice is ever intended.

 

Jennie, look out world, because here we come!

[jennie-jennie]

Has he suggested that he would be happy if it was possible to have a polygamous relationship with both his wife and you then? If so, then surely that would provide no resolution to the situation for you or his wife. It would be just carrying on with exactly the same scenario as the affair. This to me would suggest that he does not want to leave his wife and wants to stay married to her. That does not sound much like him having an exclusive relationship with you.

 

Jennie - I am not out to bash. You have a good heart and I just worry that he is taking advantage of you just as he is taking advantage of his wife.

 

Thanks, Anne, that is sweet of you. I truly appreciate your kind comment about me.

 

He wants to care for her, he is a provider. It is very difficult for him to let go of that. The question is, of course, if she knew would she accept that that is the only role he is still fulfilling?

 

I am the one who brought up polygamy by the way. We had a discussion on LS in one of my threads which brought on a discussion between MM and me. It is not something he has suggested, just something we talked about just like we love to discuss everything under the sun.

[jennie-jennie]

Oh yes...and thank God for you...I have lived/worked/loved in a world with countless "rules". I feel like I have been "ruled" to death. I have always hated feeling/being controlled.

 

The last two years has been a journey of which I am learning how much I have let everyone elses views/opinions/expectations control me. at 15 yrs old I fell off the pedestal, I was deemed many things at this point, mainly unacceptable...no matter what I did, it was not good enouph, thus people pleasing is perfected.

 

I worked in an environment where perfection was the only option, thus many, many rules...ridiculous rules...rules to justify jobs as the lay-offs began. I literally wanted to tie my arms to my side to give supervision a visual concerning what was actually happening. A five minute job literally took 4 or 5 days to accomplish.

 

I smoked ciggs for several years, everybody made comments...said I'd never quit..whatever. Although was my "outward sin" that you could see and smell much different than the sin that they hid, that you couldn't see.

 

I do things right, and I do things wrong and will not apologize any longer...I am going to be who I am as no malice is ever intended.

 

Jennie, look out world, because here we come!

 

Thanks for my new signature line!

[LucreziaBorgia]

He is unapologetic about being married and at the same time having an extramarital relationship, about not ending one relationship before starting the other. There are reasons why he has chosen to do it this way.

 

What about to you though? Does he feel guilt for putting you in this position of 'wait and see'? Does he feel the need to apologize to you for making the choice every day that goes by to stay married?

 

I don't ask as someone on the BS side, more or less as a general curiosity of how you feel about it yourself. What about you? Do you want him to be apologetic for his refusal to divorce and be with you full time? I know you say he is going to, but nearly all of them do at some point or other (unless they were pretty up front like myself and just made it clear from the get-go that breaking up/divorce was not an option). They all say they 'can't' divorce, but let me tell you: they can. They just won't for whatever reason. Do OW in general feel they want an apology for that?

 

Does that 'unapologetic' attitude work for both OW and BS?

 

I was always in the MM position in cases like this and I always maintained the 'wait and see' (if it was necessary to give that impression to keep the affair going) until I no longer wanted to be in the affair and ended it. I don't say 'chose to stay married' to be snarky, I say it because with nearly every single OM I was with regardless of how long/passionate/'real' the relationship was, I was making a daily and conscious decision to stay in the primary relationship for a variety of reasons depending on the relationship I was in at the time.

 

I never really considered it from the OW POV, since generally speaking as OW I wasn't really interested in a full time R either.

[SoleMate]

Surely only a complete sociopath has no guilt or level of "sorriness" for betraying his life partner for so long.

Let's all just read the sentence above 3 or 4 times, and think about what it implies. Then I think this thread could be put to rest.

 

P.S. Have you ever noticed how on LS, OW really "own the market" on starting threads where they claim their life is great, and effectively challenging others to disagree them, then getting irate when others point out the problem with their thinking? From this I deduce:

 

* OW have lots of time on their hands (alone)

 

* OW do not (truly) feel good about the lives they're living (and need to defend against the critical voices in their head)

 

I guess I'll start a new thread on this.

[OWoman]

We had a discussion yesterday, MM and I, in which we talked about how everyone, including the OW, puts guilt on the MM. I too am guilty of this.

 

Since I came to LS I have claimed the right to be an Unapologetic OW. The consensus of our discussion yesterday is that a MM has the right to claim himself to be an Unapologetic Married Man.

 

A man who is doing the best he can under the circumstances he is in, why should he be apologetic?

 

I realise I'm coming late to this discussion, but...

 

I agree with the principle, that it's certainly conceivable, and possible, for there to be unapologetic MMs.

 

However, from what's been described here, I wouldn't describe Jen's MM as unapologetic - I would say he aspires to be an unapologetic MM (perhaps); or he aspires to be a resolved MM. Right now, I don't think he's either. Because...

 

Being unapologetic is claiming a political space. It's demanding to be recognised and acknowledged for who and what you are. It says - look at me! See me for what I REALLY am - and deal with that! That is me, and I havve a right to be that!

 

While not confrontational, it is open and upfront. I think - AFAIK, based on what's been presented here, and I apologise in advance if I'm missing crucial information that makes my assessment wrong on this - Jen's MM is open and upfront about his MM/WS status with Jen ONLY. I don't know if he's open with his friends, his colleagues, his family, his neighbours, about the status of his R with Jen. Sure, the LDR aspect does confound things, in that it's more difficult to peg "normality" - but unless he's a totally private person, who doesn't speak about his private life to anyone else at all, the omission to those with whom he does share discussions about his private life would signal that he's "hiding" it - that he's not totally upfront and open about it, and thus that he's not as unapologetic as he'd like to lay claim to.

 

If I compare, say, my H during the A - being a MM/WS was not a status he aspired to. It wasn't something of his conscious choosing, that he sought to become. It wasn't a status he relished. Yes, he was open and upfront about it, and yes, everyone (except the BW) knew that we were a couple... but even so, I wouldn't describe him as an unapologetic MM. It wasn't a status he was proud to embrace. It wasn't an identity he he chose, or one that affirmed him. He sought to be a resolved MM - and became one when he dumped his xW.

 

Jen's MM neither seeks to be a MM - from the description, he's uncomfortable in that position, and seeks resolution - nor is he an upfront and open MM, AFAIK. He's a conflicted MM, seeking resolution. I think he aspires to be an unapologetic MM to allow him greater ease with the conflicts he's clearly feeling - but I don't feel he's actually there yet.

 

That's my reading, anyway.

[OWoman]

Let's all just read the sentence above 3 or 4 times, and think about what it implies. Then I think this thread could be put to rest.

 

P.S. Have you ever noticed how on LS, OW really "own the market" on starting threads where they claim their life is great, and effectively challenging others to disagree them, then getting irate when others point out the problem with their thinking? From this I deduce:

 

* OW have lots of time on their hands (alone)

 

* OW do not (truly) feel good about the lives they're living (and need to defend against the critical voices in their head)

 

I guess I'll start a new thread on this.

 

Actually, if you look at statistics (posts per day), you'll notice that:

 

* the highest posting rates (average posts per day) are Ws.

 

* most of the threads started by OWs are looking for support dealing with NC / Dday / the downsides of being an OW (as experienced by those OWs).

 

Sure, some OWs (of the unapologetic persuasion) do post about how great things are going - and why not, if things are going great? - but then, so do many ROW, to show current OWs just how much better their lives could be if they dumped that worthless piece of MM; so too do fBSs, who've either reconciled their Ms and feel their lives are back on track; so too do fBSs who've dumped the WS and moved on - to show other BSs how much better their lives could be if they dumped that worthless piece of WS....

 

...And why not? If someone feels that their life is great, and that there are lessons that could be shared from it for others who may be experiencing problems that they have aced in their past, why not share those? Sure, those who disagree are free to do so - and many do (those who've reconciled, for example, are free to point out to those who dumped the WS that reconciliation and a recovered M is possible, and that D is not inevitable; those who Md their MMs are free to point out to those who walked away that a happy future with a MM is possible, and that not ALL As end up on the scrapheap; etc)

 

This is the OW board. Statistically, MOST of the threads should be by / for OMs or OWs. "My life is great" threads from BSs are probably more appropriate in the infidelity, or the M (if they recovered the M) or the D / coping (if they dumped the WS) sections. So this observation strikes me as a little... missing the point?

[norajane]

Being unapologetic is claiming a political space. It's demanding to be recognised and acknowledged for who and what you are. It says - look at me! See me for what I REALLY am - and deal with that! That is me, and I havve a right to be that!

 

While not confrontational, it is open and upfront.

 

...he's "hiding" it - that he's not totally upfront and open about it, and thus that he's not as unapologetic as he'd like to lay claim to.

 

I agree. To be unapologetic about your behavior and choices, you have to be open about it, not hiding it. If you hide it and don't want people to know what you're doing, you're not really standing up and saying you are ok with your choices and others need to accept you as you are.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Being unapologetic can cut both ways though -

 

1. a MM can be unapologetic for having an OW

 

2. a MM can be unapologetic for choosing to stay married

 

I guess it depends on the perspective in terms of who that 'unapologetic attitude' works best for and in which context. I tend to think it only really works best for MM.

[White Flower]

Being unapologetic can cut both ways though -

 

1. a MM can be unapologetic for having an OW

 

2. a MM can be unapologetic for choosing to stay married

 

I guess it depends on the perspective in terms of who that 'unapologetic attitude' works best for and in which context. I tend to think it only really works best for MM.

And while he may be unapologetic he may not take that stance in front of his W. We (both BS and OW) know inside he does though.

[Hazyhead]

Jennie - I think to struggle with inner turmoil, as you've discussed with him, he must feel some form of sorrow for the situation... whether it be for you, his children, his wife or even just himself. If he was comfortable with it, ie. feeling truly unapologetic, he would not have that inner turmoil, that I can see anyway.

[pureinheart]

 

He is unapologetic about being married and at the same time having an extramarital relationship, about not ending one relationship before starting the other. There are reasons why he has chosen to do it this way.

 

Actually, this is not so unusual. From what I have seen, men have a difficult time with change of any sort...even if it is good change...change that is needed.

[White Flower]

 

Actually, this is not so unusual. From what I have seen, men have a difficult time with change of any sort...even if it is good change...change that is needed.

Tell me about it! That is why so many remarry after D or being widowed--they just can't handle the change of being alone. Women handle change ever so much better. At least most women.

 

That is why women tend to file for D more often than men do.

[jennie-jennie]

What about to you though? Does he feel guilt for putting you in this position of 'wait and see'? Does he feel the need to apologize to you for making the choice every day that goes by to stay married?

 

I certainly hope not. for apologies.

 

I don't ask as someone on the BS side, more or less as a general curiosity of how you feel about it yourself. What about you? Do you want him to be apologetic for his refusal to divorce and be with you full time?

 

No, I have hated guilt since I grew up in a family which my mother ruled by imposing guilt on everyone. My father has spent a lifetime apologizing and making up for supposed wrongs he has done to my mother.

 

My MM is staying married because he is being true to himself. Why would I want him to apologize for that?

 

I know you say he is going to, but nearly all of them do at some point or other (unless they were pretty up front like myself and just made it clear from the get-go that breaking up/divorce was not an option). They all say they 'can't' divorce, but let me tell you: they can. They just won't for whatever reason. Do OW in general feel they want an apology for that?

 

He never promised me he would divorce his wife. I have chosen to stay with him in spite of that. Why would I then want an apology for that?

 

Does that 'unapologetic' attitude work for both OW and BS?

 

That's where this whole thing started. I did feel that he was doing wrong by me, but now I am starting to realize that what he is doing is being true to himself.

 

I was always in the MM position in cases like this and I always maintained the 'wait and see' (if it was necessary to give that impression to keep the affair going) until I no longer wanted to be in the affair and ended it. I don't say 'chose to stay married' to be snarky, I say it because with nearly every single OM I was with regardless of how long/passionate/'real' the relationship was, I was making a daily and conscious decision to stay in the primary relationship for a variety of reasons depending on the relationship I was in at the time.

 

Concerning the bolded above, I too have realized this is true.

Edited April 3, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[pureinheart]

P.S. Have you ever noticed how on LS, OW really "own the market" on starting threads where they claim their life is great, and effectively challenging others to disagree them, then getting irate when others point out the problem with their thinking? .

 

This is the OW board. Statistically, MOST of the threads should be by / for OMs or OWs. "My life is great" threads from BSs are probably more appropriate in the infidelity, or the M (if they recovered the M) or the D / coping (if they dumped the WS) sections. So this observation strikes me as a little... missing the point?

 

Hi SoleMate,

 

This is a board to communicate whatever is going on in an EMR, the good, the bad, and the ugly (of which I would like to interject that all R's fall under the catagory of good, bad and ugly).

 

It has been sooo difficult for me to understand why there is a problem with OW and FOW having a decent discussion with each other or FBS's.

[jennie-jennie]

I realise I'm coming late to this discussion, but...

 

I agree with the principle, that it's certainly conceivable, and possible, for there to be unapologetic MMs.

 

However, from what's been described here, I wouldn't describe Jen's MM as unapologetic - I would say he aspires to be an unapologetic MM (perhaps); or he aspires to be a resolved MM. Right now, I don't think he's either. Because...

 

Being unapologetic is claiming a political space. It's demanding to be recognised and acknowledged for who and what you are. It says - look at me! See me for what I REALLY am - and deal with that! That is me, and I havve a right to be that!

 

While not confrontational, it is open and upfront. I think - AFAIK, based on what's been presented here, and I apologise in advance if I'm missing crucial information that makes my assessment wrong on this - Jen's MM is open and upfront about his MM/WS status with Jen ONLY. I don't know if he's open with his friends, his colleagues, his family, his neighbours, about the status of his R with Jen. Sure, the LDR aspect does confound things, in that it's more difficult to peg "normality" - but unless he's a totally private person, who doesn't speak about his private life to anyone else at all, the omission to those with whom he does share discussions about his private life would signal that he's "hiding" it - that he's not totally upfront and open about it, and thus that he's not as unapologetic as he'd like to lay claim to.

 

If I compare, say, my H during the A - being a MM/WS was not a status he aspired to. It wasn't something of his conscious choosing, that he sought to become. It wasn't a status he relished. Yes, he was open and upfront about it, and yes, everyone (except the BW) knew that we were a couple... but even so, I wouldn't describe him as an unapologetic MM. It wasn't a status he was proud to embrace. It wasn't an identity he he chose, or one that affirmed him. He sought to be a resolved MM - and became one when he dumped his xW.

 

Jen's MM neither seeks to be a MM - from the description, he's uncomfortable in that position, and seeks resolution - nor is he an upfront and open MM, AFAIK. He's a conflicted MM, seeking resolution. I think he aspires to be an unapologetic MM to allow him greater ease with the conflicts he's clearly feeling - but I don't feel he's actually there yet.

 

That's my reading, anyway.

 

But I believe you can be unapologetic about being a conflicted MM seeking resolution. I too could call myself a conflicted OW seeking resolution, yet I am also a happy OW and an unapologetic OW.

 

I believe you can be unapologetic about being a MM who hides his OW. Being unapologetic starts within yourself.

 

Neither I nor my MM sought to be OW/MM, but yet we are, and by our own choosing, and you can be unapologetic about that. We choose every day to continue being OW/MM, and we want to own that choice.

 

I very seldom disagree with your take, OWoman, but this time I do. I believe it is because you consciously sought to be the OW. Therefore the dynamics in a relationship like that of my MM and I are different from the dynamics you have experienced.

 

We are claiming a political space, and we are starting on LS. :bunny:

 

(My MM is very private, and has very few if any real friends. This is actually typical for a split self, not to have anyone (except the OW) to share his inner emotions with.)

Edited April 3, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

What's this guy looking for, anyway? Brownie points? So he says he's doing the best he can. Are we supposed to give him a pat on the head? He's still a man leading a double life, and not doing anything to change it.

Who cares if he's upapologetic?

 

He does and I do. Like OWoman said I am posting to share with other OW/MM something I feel is helping him and me. If there are any other OW/MM who are helped by this approach, that's great!

[jennie-jennie]

I agree. To be unapologetic about your behavior and choices, you have to be open about it, not hiding it. If you hide it and don't want people to know what you're doing, you're not really standing up and saying you are ok with your choices and others need to accept you as you are.

 

For this to be true noone could be unapologetic about hiding something. Hiding is also a behavior and a choice. Just like a thief would not flaunt with his stolen goods in front of everyone, so can a MM choose not to flaunt with his OW in front of everyone. The thief can still be unapologetic, and so can the MM. Both are doing something that by many is considered to be morally wrong, still both can consider what they are doing not to be morally wrong.

 

My MM is unapologetic towards my family. They know he is married and in a relationship with me. He can not share his relationship with his friends and family, because they are all friends and family of his wife as well, and sharing our relationship with them would mean a Dday

[jennie-jennie]

Being unapologetic can cut both ways though -

 

1. a MM can be unapologetic for having an OW

 

2. a MM can be unapologetic for choosing to stay married

 

I guess it depends on the perspective in terms of who that 'unapologetic attitude' works best for and in which context. I tend to think it only really works best for MM.

 

Of course. It is about being true to himself.

[jennie-jennie]

And while he may be unapologetic he may not take that stance in front of his W. We (both BS and OW) know inside he does though.

 

Exactly.

 

(10 characters necessary)

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie - I think to struggle with inner turmoil, as you've discussed with him, he must feel some form of sorrow for the situation... whether it be for you, his children, his wife or even just himself. If he was comfortable with it, ie. feeling truly unapologetic, he would not have that inner turmoil, that I can see anyway.

 

As I have pointed out earlier, I don't see a discrepance between being unapologetic and feeling sorrow, between being unapologetic and having inner turmoil.

 

Ie I have inner turmoil but I choose to stay in both relationships while I figure out how to deal with it, thus I can still be unapologetic about my choice.

 

Unapologetic is about taking a stand that I will not be ashamed of my choice to be an OW or a MM today - even if for some of us OW/MM we do hope we will not be the OW/MM forever.

Edited April 3, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[JoyDevine]

 

Jennie, you are one of my favorite posters. I really identify with your situation. You were my cautionary tale!

I still can relate to you. I think with you, it's a case of managing expectations. You're in a situation that meets your needs and you don't have very high expectations.

That might be the key - adjusting what you expect to get out of the relationship.

 

Wow. I'm not sure what to make of this.

 

I don't know whether to be insulted for Jennie or what?

 

Is anyone really getting their needs met when they don't have very high expectations?

 

Everything is relative. If someone has low expectations, wouldn't it be easier to meet and/or exceed them?

It's just accepting reality the way it is and not how you want it to be - and being grateful for what you have.

 

I could have high expectations about my first love re entering my life - and expect him to now leave his wife and kids, and move over continents and seas to be with me - or I could have realistic expectations and accept and enjoy the fact that one of my best friends is back in my life.