Unapologetic Married Man

[NoIDidn't]

He feels that his learning was worth your pain? Is that for him to decide?

 

I am only describing his feelings of not condemning himself for what he has done. His learning was worth our pain. I learned a tremendous amount too. I do not feel that he had the right to put me through it, but I accept his feelings as valid for him. He wishes that he'd never done it, but accepts that he did it. And he learned from it.

 

He won't do it again, because the pain was too much. Does that mean he can no longer learn? Of course not. There are many paths to learning, just as there were many paths to learning when he chose a path that betrayed you. He owes no apology for chosing a path of betrayal?

 

I think you misunderstood. I stated in the beginning of my post that it didn't mean that they weren't sorry for the betrayal. It means that they have learned to live with what they have done. Of course, he's sorry for the betrayal. It not only betrayed me, but also betrayed him. Who he was. His sense of self. He never thought he'd be "that" guy. Its made him far more accepting of my flaws, since he now knows he has many as well.

 

At the end of the day, his being apologetic or not is about his own feelings. Not about mine. He will have to live with himself whether married or divorced.

 

I didn't like it initially. It did seem hurtful and dismissive of my pain. Ultimately, being unapologetic is just accepting that "it is what it is". Its part of him now. No point in denying it or wishing it away.

[NoIDidn't]

Think of all the learning you'll miss out on if he doesn't continue to cheat!

 

Seriously, if the ends justify the means in his mind, then what motivation does he have to be honest and faithful, ever?

 

NID's husband says he would NOT do it again, as it was not worth the pain. Doesn't that make him apologetic?

 

I think this is taking it too far. My H is definitely not an "ends justifies the means" person. He would never do it again. But he already did it and it can't be undone. He can't continue to apologize for it. Hence, he's unapologetic now.

 

I do not agree with Jennie's MM that he can reach this point before living with real consequences for his actions - without having ever actually apologized for his actions.

 

 

If a person has peace about their choices, why be "in the closet" so to speak? If you truly have peace regarding your actions, why not expose them to the light?

 

If the peace does not withstand the light, it is truly peace? Or is it denial? Numbness? Personal "peace" can grow as compassion declines.

 

I agree, that's why I said the above.

[donnamaybe]

Except he has been very adamant for a long time about saying he is not going to stay in a marriage where he feels he has to keep apologizing.

 

So if he EVER leaves is wife (after four years ), will you be fine with him taking an OW and not making him apologize for doing so?

[NoIDidn't]

First - I think you are misunderstanding my point of view. Second, I don't like the whole idea of "unapologetic" when someone either has in the past or is continuing in actions that produce pain for someone else. I think an apology is an important part of helping OTHER people recover. I do not, however, think that reaching peace for ONESELF has much (if anything) to do with making amends to the OTHER people. I think it has to do with reaching an acceptance WITHIN yourself for yourself, and forgiving yourself.

 

Exactly what I've been trying to say. You said it much better.

 

As I said before, though, I don't think it is healthy to forgive yourself for something you ARE STILL DOING. That is, IMO just a cop out for giving yourself permission to continue doing whatever it is that you want to do - and hang the rest. I, however, am not everyone. My opinion is just that - my opinion. I don't believe that my opinion is valid for everyone in the entire world, and I don't pretend that my way of life works for everyone else.

 

If you want my personal OPINION - I personally think that anyone who says "this is who I am and what I need now so I'm going to forgive myself for it (therefore I am unapologetic)" is living in a fool's paradise. They haven't yet experienced any real repercussions of their actions (other than the guilt they may or may not be having - and I agree, they have probably made that decision so they no longer need to feel the guilt). They haven't SEEN the results of their actions.

 

LOL. I think I just posted this. I don't agree that Jennie's MM is doing anyone any favors with calling himself unapologetic and still cheating. Its only after he faces the consequences can he say that, IMO.

[xxoo]

. He would never do it again. But he already did it and it can't be undone. He can't continue to apologize for it. Hence' date=' he's unapologetic [i']now[/i].

 

This I can fully understand.

 

At some point, we do have to stop flogging ourselves for past mistakes--but while still betraying is not the time

[donnamaybe]

He never promised me he would divorce his wife. I have chosen to stay with him in spite of that.

 

Yet he has you convinced that he's "working toward a resolution" which, after four years, would seem to me to simply be the proverbial carrot being dangled to keep you hanging around waiting. Sad.

[NoIDidn't]

This I can fully understand.

 

At some point, we do have to stop flogging ourselves for past mistakes--but while still betraying is not the time

 

Exactly.

 

My H would have NEVER said he was unapologetic while still cheating.

 

That is .

[pureinheart]

Think of all the learning you'll miss out on if he doesn't continue to cheat!

 

Seriously, if the ends justify the means in his mind, then what motivation does he have to be honest and faithful, ever?

 

NID's husband says he would NOT do it again, as it was not worth the pain. Doesn't that make him apologetic?

 

 

 

If a person has peace about their choices, why be "in the closet" so to speak? If you truly have peace regarding your actions, why not expose them to the light?

 

If the peace does not withstand the light, it is truly peace? Or is it denial? Numbness? Personal "peace" can grow as compassion declines.

 

No, as there is a place called "forgiveness" and "moving on" that I forgot when I was very young. I have learned that unforgiveness get you nowhere fast. NID's H knows who he is, so why be apologetic?

[donnamaybe]

Not all A's stem from the seedy back alley motels with a needle hanging out of their arm...some are because there is love.

 

I can discern absolutely NO love from this lying MM who has two women at his beck and call for four years. Well, love for himself I guess.

[donnamaybe]

I have a degree in Psychology, and think that most of the split self theories, etc are simply reasons to excuse bad behavior.

Obviously, my opinion differs from others, and that's perfectly ok with me.

 

Spot on here.

[donnamaybe]

It sounds to me as if, over the past 4 years, his compassion and conscience have declined, and his powers of justification have been improved. None of these are positive growth, imo.

 

The same thing happens over time to the child of an enabling parent.

[jennie-jennie]

I'm doing alright, thanks for asking. He's been very good about answering my questions when they pop up and they pop up at the oddest of times. And he's been very good at giving me what I need from him. And while sure he could be playing me, I can't live my life with that fear. And he has done things that have shown where he's at. Things most people wouldn't get, but I do.

If he giving her other types of intimacy, hugs and such? I know that can be done on a non-sexual level. I am not a huge toucher myself, I'm so uncomfortable with most people touching me that its not something I easily accept. I can handle it from my H, and from a very select few friends. Are they sharing that type of thing? SOmething that is soothing to the heart and soul but not sexual or even romantic - because its not romantic when I've done it with the few friends I can handle it from, its just worth and comfort and care. Sorry for the questions, I'm just wondering what if anything aside from financial she is getting from him. I don't think its healthy for humans to live without touching for very long. But then, I'm a cat person and touch is important.

 

He couldn't promise to do something he had already failed to do himself. If he could have ended it without my ever knowing, he surely would have. Oddly enough, its fading now that he doesn't have to fight himself over it. Will it fade completely? I doubt it. But at least he's found some peace with it.

 

And that was the key, when he was torturing himself over what was going on, he was short changing me, her, and himself not to mention work, the kids everything. He couldn't give anyone what was needed because the guilt, the pressure, and uncertainty was all over the place.

 

While I think out in the open has made it easier for him to forgive himself - the first key and really more important then my forgiveness - for screwing up and allowing himself to fully love again. Your MM, Jennie, has managed to do this without going open. I'm not sure exactly how this will play out in the long run, but right now I think its going to let him give more to everyone involved. That is better for all involved.

This is what I believe too, CCL, that the negative emotions take away the ability to do good. It seems to be going in the right direction for you and your husband. I am very glad to see that.

 

I'll be honest, I feel for your MM's wife, Jennie. I hope she is getting what she needs out of this too. Its not a situation where I would get all my needs met which is mostly where my sympathy comes from. But if her needs are met, maybe she could learn to look past the betrayal when dday happens. Probably not, but maybe.

 

CCL

I feel for her too, CCL. From what my MM tells me, she is a really good woman.

 

I know he gives her a kiss on the cheek when they part and such, he hugs her when she is sad. Although lately he has been saying that even those kind of hugs are awkward to him now.

 

I don't think she really is that into touching though. She has never been one to reach out to him in the bed. So when he doesn't initiate it, nothing happens. She is very different from me in that sense, I am a very tactile person. If I were her, I would be all over him wondering what was wrong.

 

He is a very supportive man, and I am certain in that sense she still gets support from him. He hasn't stopped loving her, but I guess it is more on a friendly basis now.

[donnamaybe]

I don't think she really is that into touching though. She has never been one to reach out to him in the bed. So when he doesn't initiate it, nothing happens. She is very different from me in that sense, I am a very tactile person. If I were her, I would be all over him wondering what was wrong.

 

This is kinda sad. I know in my R with my guy, the wanting is always there. I can understand feeling something missing if there is no wanting.

 

Has he said anything to his W about this aspect of their R?

[jennie-jennie]

I guess my real question is why do you really believe that it has taken him FOUR years of cheating/lying to his wife to get to this point, and accept that it's going to take him years more to actually do anything about it?

 

Because I have seen him transform into quite a different person during these years. His entire value system has changed, his world view, his take on religion. This process started before he contacted me, perhaps it was even the reason why he decided to contact me. But since my value system is quite different than his, our relationship has advanced the transformation.

 

It is like he said: he has been watching "his personality burn up". That does not happen overnight.

[Owl]

Because I have seen him transform into quite a different person during these years. His entire value system has changed, his world view, his take on religion. This process started before he contacted me, perhaps it was even the reason why he decided to contact me. But since my value system is quite different than his, our relationship has advanced the transformation.

 

It is like he said: he has been watching "his personality burn up". That does not happen overnight.

 

Interesting...so the reason that you're ok with this is because slowly but surely, his value system is becoming more like yours.

 

Thanks for the response.

[jennie-jennie]

This is kinda sad. I know in my R with my guy, the wanting is always there. I can understand feeling something missing if there is no wanting.

 

Has he said anything to his W about this aspect of their R?

 

He is contemplating bringing up the lack of intimacy to a discussion with her. But he realizes that this might lead to a Dday. How do you ask why she does not seem to want intimacy when he does not either anymore?

 

He is very perplexed that she is not reacting to the lack of sex and intimacy. Sometimes he wonders if she has stopped being attracted to him. We are middle aged you know, and don't look as good as we used to.

[anne1707]

He is very perplexed that she is not reacting to the lack of sex and intimacy. Sometimes he wonders if she has stopped being attracted to him. We are middle aged you know, and don't look as good as we used to.

 

Why should this matter to him if he is supposedly "exclusive" with you?

[jennie-jennie]

Why should this matter to him if he is supposedly "exclusive" with you?

 

Because even though he is exclusive with me since a year back, he has not promised me anything for the future. He is still torn between the marriage and the extramarital relationship.

 

He has however with me seen how much more intimate a relationship you can have, so if he decides to stay with his wife and end our relationship, he wants to achieve the same intimacy with her that he now has with me.

[anne1707]

Wow! He really does want it both ways, doesn't he!

 

Sorry Jennie but the more I hear, the more I think he is a cake eater (and I know you don't like that term but sorry, to me and many others that is exactly what he is)

[donnamaybe]

He is contemplating bringing up the lack of intimacy to a discussion with her. But he realizes that this might lead to a Dday. How do you ask why she does not seem to want intimacy when he does not either anymore?

That's easy to explain. If you're not wanted in that way, it will definitely dull your own wanting. Who wants to feel like they are getting mercy sex? That's why he's not getting intimate with her as much.

 

He is very perplexed that she is not reacting to the lack of sex and intimacy. Sometimes he wonders if she has stopped being attracted to him. We are middle aged you know, and don't look as good as we used to.

 

I think our eyesight starts to get worse as we age is for this very reason.

 

Maybe she just doesn't have that high a sex drive. Maybe she feels unattractive to him. He won't know unless they talk about it.

[pureinheart]

Jennie, I just have to thank you again. In posting on another thread I found how I walked in the "apologetic" realm, and how hard it was to find different words to communicate a simple statement...my statement required no apology per se, yet there I was apologizing for nothing...for the simple sake of apologizing because "I" am programmed to.

 

Wow, I can't even begin to go into how damaging this can be...

 

I see unapologetic as not being controlled by anyone or anything, except for ones own choosing...like I choose to be "controlled" by my God because I trust Him, He will not abuse that control...wow I love your threads Jennie!

[crazycatlady]

This is what I believe too, CCL, that the negative emotions take away the ability to do good. It seems to be going in the right direction for you and your husband. I am very glad to see that.

 

I feel for her too, CCL. From what my MM tells me, she is a really good woman.

 

I know he gives her a kiss on the cheek when they part and such, he hugs her when she is sad. Although lately he has been saying that even those kind of hugs are awkward to him now.

 

I don't think she really is that into touching though. She has never been one to reach out to him in the bed. So when he doesn't initiate it, nothing happens. She is very different from me in that sense, I am a very tactile person. If I were her, I would be all over him wondering what was wrong.

 

He is a very supportive man, and I am certain in that sense she still gets support from him. He hasn't stopped loving her, but I guess it is more on a friendly basis now.

 

It sounds like he's feeling some remorse about not being what she needs but being afraid to ask. 1 to avoid the dday and honestly, 2 because no one wants to know they aren't enough for someone they love.

 

The situation seems very tough...and I do wonder how unapologetic as some have mentioned he can be without it being in the open. I think for true peace in himself it needs to be in the open. Even with changed values given how much he cares for her and how much he loves you, I think in the end he's going to be deluding himself about being at peace without a dday happening.

 

I wish you all the best.

 

CCL

Edited April 5, 2010 by crazycatlady
That quote is from Jennie and not me. Not sure why it says me.

[donnamaybe]

I see unapologetic as not being controlled by anyone or anything, except for ones own choosing...

 

But he already said he knows he's potentially causing a lot of hurt. Unless he doesn't mind hurting people he supposedly cares about, how can you be unapologetic? I just don't get it. I understand the concept of not being controlled by anyone else, but we SHOULD control ourselves based on OUR standards of integrity, and since he knows the hurt being caused... Or does he just not CARE that he is causing the hurt, thus no standards of integrity? IMO, of course, on the no standards thing.

[pureinheart]

That's easy to explain. If you're not wanted in that way, it will definitely dull your own wanting. Who wants to feel like they are getting mercy sex? That's why he's not getting intimate with her as much.

 

 

 

I think our eyesight starts to get worse as we age is for this very reason.

 

Maybe she just doesn't have that high a sex drive. Maybe she feels unattractive to him. He won't know unless they talk about it.

 

This is cute Donna , and I agree....as I still think I look ok...lol

[donnamaybe]

This is cute Donna , and I agree....as I still think I look ok...lol

 

I'm sure you and Jennie are both just fine! lol