Religion is the work of the devil

[amerikajin]

I'm sorry, but it just is. There is no way that a just God would ever want people to kill each other in his name or oppress the liberty of people of free will. There is no way a just God would ever agree with spreading "His word" through violence. I don't believe a just God hates gays or lesbians. I don't believe God wants us to fear him. I believe God wants people to help each other out and quit being so damned greedy. And yet people by the millions are taught that God wants all of the above.

[taiko]

So you would be a Quaker except... except what exactly:confused:

[dreamingoftigers]

I think you mean hypocrisy is of the devil. Because all of those things sound like hypocrisy to me.

[Disillusioned]

IMO Europeans stole God from Middle Easterners and lorded him over on other peoples. The Greeks and Romans should have let the Middle Easterners mind their own business.

[threebyfate]

I sincerely have difficulties with organized religion. It's impossible to believe religious dogma since it's interpretation of the thoughts, wants and desires of a purportedly omnipotent being by a group of small-minded men.

 

How can mankind have the sheer audacity to believe they understand someone like this? Most people don't even understand themselves, nevermind other people.

[amerikajin]

So you would be a Quaker except... except what exactly:confused:

 

I can find God on my own. Anyone else can, too. There is absolutely no need for religious dogma or traditions. If people want to go to a Church to find community, that's all fine but do not -- I mean do NOT -- start proselytizing to me or show up at my door. People should mind their own damned business when it comes to spirituality.

[dazzle22]

I find it amusing when people define God in a narrow minded way, because I think to myself, "well the God of the universeif there is one, has got to be more loving, forgiving, tolerant, less jealous than me, so if you are telling me about a god more flawed than I am (like the God of the Old Testament), sorry, can't believe that!

[deux ex machina]

I'm sorry, but it just is. There is no way that a just God would ever want people to kill each other in his name or oppress the liberty of people of free will. There is no way a just God would ever agree with spreading "His word" through violence. I don't believe a just God hates gays or lesbians. I don't believe God wants us to fear him. I believe God wants people to help each other out and quit being so damned greedy. And yet people by the millions are taught that God wants all of the above.

 

I know.

 

I do believe in God; I do have faith. It's important and beautiful to me, and something I will not deny, if asked. I'm happy to talk about it, and find conversations about it with some, whether a believer or not, can be enlightening, fun, and nuturing to me.

 

However, my conception of God isn't one that would have anything to do with hatred, violence, oppression, ignorance, and fear. Humans are responsible for that.

 

 

I can find God on my own. Anyone else can, too. There is absolutely no need for religious dogma or traditions. If people want to go to a Church to find community, that's all fine but do not -- I mean do NOT -- start proselytizing to me or show up at my door. People should mind their own damned business when it comes to spirituality.

 

...or lack thereof. Or, tarring everyone with the same brush before getting to know precisely what that individual believes or does not believe.

 

Funny that you bring up church. I go to one for the reason you brought up: community. I don't agree with everything brought up in church (most things, actually). When asked, I tell people where I go...and there have been times I've been told I don't go to a real church, with the implication that my faith is 'wrong' because of that...then another person will say I'm [insert negative assumption here] for having faith to begin with. When really, I don't tell people how to live their spiritual life, or make assumptions about them because of it - and I do not believe that a person needs to subscribe to any faith to be a moral person.

 

Fundamentalists of any stripe are frightening to me. All of that hatred, and with the rationalization that god wants it that way...they can justify anything. So I do think that religion can be is evil, in that evil to me, is a lack of light.

[deux ex machina]

In my city, Raleigh North Carolina, most who say they believe in god are fundamentalist Christians.

 

Heh. Good timing! I was just coming back to edit that to clarify that I mean "by fundamentalist, I mean judgmental religious zealots"...I think we know what I'm referring to, but I did want to make it clear.

 

Religious hate has been used against me when I explain that I'm an atheist. Seriously this Jesus being the son of god thing is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard.

 

That's it - you're evil! You can't have any morals, values, or worth at all, and there's something very wrong with you, since you are not one of us!

 

I get it from both sides.

[Toki]

The "god" conundrum. How could a good god let bad things happen? since I subscribe to deism, the only thing I can figure is that god is neither good nor evil, or not in the sense that we think or can comprehend. The problem with religion is that it tries to contain an infinite incomprehensible force in a box. What you get is an individual interpretation based on the notion that you yourself actually know who or what god is on a personal level. Personally I find comfort in the cold hard truths both in science and life, because the answer is obvious, I don't have to look beyond the veil to search for something that very well may not be there. I leave god to being god, and look no further. Which doesn't by any means make me less moral than any other upstanding person, I just believe that society does better when you act on kindness and compassion, rather than belief that if you don't do good you're going to end up in hell. My two cents, anyways.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Toki

[Engadget]

Believing in a deity is one thing, but following organized religion is just silly to me.

[pureinheart]

I can find God on my own. Anyone else can, too. There is absolutely no need for religious dogma or traditions. If people want to go to a Church to find community, that's all fine but do not -- I mean do NOT -- start proselytizing to me or show up at my door. People should mind their own damned business when it comes to spirituality.

 

Even in the Spirituality Forum?????? Sorry amerikajin, couldn't help myself....

[pureinheart]

I know.

 

I do believe in God; I do have faith. It's important and beautiful to me, and something I will not deny, if asked. I'm happy to talk about it, and find conversations about it with some, whether a believer or not, can be enlightening, fun, and nuturing to me.

 

However, my conception of God isn't one that would have anything to do with hatred, violence, oppression, ignorance, and fear. Humans are responsible for that.

 

 

 

 

...or lack thereof. Or, tarring everyone with the same brush before getting to know precisely what that individual believes or does not believe.

 

Funny that you bring up church. I go to one for the reason you brought up: community. I don't agree with everything brought up in church (most things, actually). When asked, I tell people where I go...and there have been times I've been told I don't go to a real church, with the implication that my faith is 'wrong' because of that...then another person will say I'm [insert negative assumption here] for having faith to begin with. When really, I don't tell people how to live their spiritual life, or make assumptions about them because of it - and I do not believe that a person needs to subscribe to any faith to be a moral person.

 

Fundamentalists of any stripe are frightening to me. All of that hatred, and with the rationalization that god wants it that way...they can justify anything. So I do think that religion can be is evil, in that evil to me, is a lack of light.

 

Hey DEM...my idea of church is right here and now, talking to you about it....

[grogster]

I'm with you, Amerikajin. Organized Religion, as practiced by most, not all, is the bane of mankind. Just look at Easter: a minor jewish prophet gets tortured to death and then comes back from the dead for a few days to hang out. That's both grisly and a zombie fantasy that strains credulity.

 

As for the Catholic Church: a racketeering enterprise that allowed its all male executives(ie, priests) and some female subordinates (ie, nuns) to physically and/or sexually abuse children for years. Like any Organization, upper management (ie, the bishops, papacy) was more concerned about protecting its Orgainization's reputation and predatory managers (ie, priests) than its most vulnerable and helpless consumers (the children or orphans).

 

I'm an atheist and proud.

 

Not in my name.

 

I won't even bother discussing Islamists or fundamentalist christians. Why bother.

 

Unfortunately, some evolutionary biologists predict that religious types will out-reproduce the non-religious. So we may win the argument, but lose genetically. Sometimes it pays not to be right, but to believe that you are.

Edited April 5, 2010 by grogster

[TaraMaiden]

I take it you're not clubbing Buddhism under "Religion" as we have no God.

 

But then, Buddhism IS a religion, so I gather you're specifying Theistic religions.

 

Yes?

[grogster]

I take it you're not clubbing Buddhism under "Religion" as we have no God.

 

But then, Buddhism IS a religion, so I gather you're specifying Theistic religions.

 

Yes?

 

I said most, not all, organized religions. As for buddhists, I lump them in with the liberal, protestant denominations like Quakers, most Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc., who are not irrationally obnoxious and dangerous to non-believers or the vulnerable and helpless.

 

But if buddhist priests abuse and exploit their charges, they too deserve censure.

 

My point is this: moral and legal accountability. Subscribing to a mass delusion (sorry, I mean religion) in an organized heirarchal corporate structure does not entitle one to a "get out of jail free" card. That bad people do very bad things as part of organizations nominally dedicated to doing "good" should surprise no one.

 

For many, membership in an organized religion is a license to harm.

Edited April 5, 2010 by grogster

[quankanne]

I leave god to being god

 

nice idea – I like it.

 

as for organized religion, it's really what you personally make of it. For instance, Grogster has a valid rant about the Church's problems with hiding sexual abuse, something that we're finally starting to address and (hopefully) find the right response for when dealing with both victim and abused. Meanwhile, his anger at the Catholic Church as a whole – to me – is unwarranted. Yes, our leaders fooked up, but the Church isn't just the clergy and religious, it's the collective Body of Christ who make possible the need for clergy/religious.

 

and I think this is where people are mistaken when they knock religion: They loose sight of the trees for the forest ...

[swansong519]

"Then why did God plague us with the capacity to think? Mr. Brady, why do you deny the one thing that sets us above the other animals? What other merit have we? The elephant is larger, the horse stronger and swifter, the butterfly more beautiful, the mosquito more prolific, even the sponge is more durable. Or does a sponge think?"

 

Spencer Tracy as Henry Drummond in Inherit the Wind.

 

When I take my dogs for a walk in the woods on a warm spring day and watch them revel in the utter simplicity of being alive and being allowed to run free...and then use my "god" given capacity to think...I can't help but wonder if all I see, hear and smell could really be just some cosmic accident.

 

As I stand there feeling the sun on my face, listening to the miriad songs of the many birds around me, feeling my heart beating in my chest and admiring the almost magical complexity of my hands and fingers...(ok...I may have had a lil puff first I find it hard to believe it all happened by random chance.

 

But...then I think of Christianity and remember that the stories of the bible are as old as the Egyptians. And I remember the mutitude of abuses that have been committed in the name of that book.

 

Then I think of Mormonism and laugh as I recall the story of Joseph Smith and his magical plates (that no one else ever saw), Native American/Israelites and an Eden in Missouri...none of which has science been able to find evidence...much like the exodus.

 

Then I think of Scientology...and my dogs come running back because they are wondering why I'm laughing so hard.

 

In the end, I think..."Of course it's laughable. It was all created by humans. Does it really matter from where all this has come? Is my puny brain even capable of grasping the complexity of the concept of, what ultimately amounts to, the alternate realities/dimensions where some god-like entity would exist?"

 

As I lay back in the grass, my dogs beside me, contemplating these ideas, it occurs to me that it doesn't really matter if there is a grander plan at work or not because for this moment, at this place in time, I'm in heaven.

Edited April 8, 2010 by swansong519

[TaraMaiden]

But there are gods in Buddhism, just no creator god... and Mahayana Buddhism does seem to regard Tathagata as a sort of eternal supreme being.

Yes, granted. But these 'Gods' are as impermanent and mortal as humans. They are not deities in the sense we cite God as being a creator - they are more manifestations of specific properties or energies, benevolent, magnificent, terrifying. But impermanent and ephemeral just the same. They reside within a 'God realm' which one day, when they die, they may well have to leave.

In Buddhism, the most favourable realm to be re-born into - is the Human one.

 

"Tathagata" is the name the Buddha used when referring to himself. it means both one who has gone, and one who has come. It is said by some that the name simply means 'one who has awakened to the truth'.

The Buddha in the scriptures is always reported as referring to himself as the Tathagata instead of using the pronouns 'me', 'I' or ''myself. This is to imply and convey that the words he speaks, are uttered by one who has transcended the human condition, and who is beyond the endless cycle of rebirth, death and dying, and beyond all suffering.

The word is also used as a synonym for an arahant.

It refers to someone who has attained the highest goal of the religious life.

 

By the way: I do not adhere to Mahayana Buddhism. I am of the Theravada tradition.

[TaraMaiden]

(. . .)

 

But if buddhist priests abuse and exploit their charges, they too deserve censure.

(. . .)

 

I would completely agree with you.

[grogster]

I leave god to being god

 

nice idea – I like it.

 

as for organized religion, it's really what you personally make of it. For instance, Grogster has a valid rant about the Church's problems with hiding sexual abuse, something that we're finally starting to address and (hopefully) find the right response for when dealing with both victim and abused. Meanwhile, his anger at the Catholic Church as a whole – to me – is unwarranted. Yes, our leaders fooked up, but the Church isn't just the clergy and religious, it's the collective Body of Christ who make possible the need for clergy/religious.

 

and I think this is where people are mistaken when they knock religion: They loose sight of the trees for the forest ...

 

I don't know what the "collective body of Christ" means. I judge belief systems by real world impact. For example, marxism is an idea system whose implementation by governing elites is such vacation spots as Albania, North Korea, Cambodia and the Soviet Union resulted in horrorific loss of life. I don't care about marxist utopianism when killing fields abound.

 

As for the Catholic Church, the steady drumbeat of news shows that the Church, at the highest levels, was more concerned about protecting its reputation and pederast priests than it was the care, protection and well-being of its most vulnerable flock: the children. When priests sexually assault kids and are treated with impunity by their superiors, expressions like "collective body of Christ" are drained of all meaning.

 

Harm is harm and evil is evil whether done in the name of a "workers' paradise" or the "collective body of Christ."

[quankanne]

I don't know what the "collective body of Christ" means. I judge belief systems by real world impact.

 

"Somos el cuerpo de Cristo ... we are the body of Christ. The people in the pews themselves, not the mechanism, which was merely designed to give direction, or the high profile leaders, or even the religious. *We* are the ones who have real impact on the world with our actions – consider the people who give up vacation time to help someone in need simply because that need exists (Katrina volunteers in NOLA, helping to clean up). We tend to forget the good that the Catholic Church provides the community because we're being whipped into a frenzy about the latest scandal. Those very things are soul-sickening, because as leaders of a faith, they should be healing the community by taking proper action, not hiding it. However, those people alone do not make up the community of believers – in any faith tradition.

[sxyNYCcpl]

How could a good god let bad things happen? since I subscribe to deism, the only thing I can figure is that god is neither good nor evil, or not in the sense that we think or can comprehend.

 

Indeed.

 

Us humans usually perceive murder to be the most vile, evil act imaginable. However, if you really think about it, that's only true if there is no afterlife, if we are but walking, talking, self-aware chemical reactions. If an afterlife exists, whether or not there is a God, multiple Gods, or no God, killing someone causes no actual harm to the underlying reality, just changes it's form.

[threebyfate]

Indeed.

 

Us humans usually perceive murder to be the most vile, evil act imaginable. However, if you really think about it, that's only true if there is no afterlife, if we are but walking, talking, self-aware chemical reactions. If an afterlife exists, whether or not there is a God, multiple Gods, or no God, killing someone causes no actual harm to the underlying reality, just changes it's form.

Actually, it improves good peoples' lives since if they've followed the tenets of the organized religion they follow, they'll get into Heaven/Eden/Paradise/Nirvana/better turn on the wheel, etc.

[OpenBook]

No. It's the TWISTING of religion that is the work of the devil. He is very good at what he does, the master of disguise and deception. It's up to us to use our discernment skills to detect his abominable work. I'm brushing up on my discernment skills by going to church regularly, reading the Bible more often... and praying like crazy. I hope it works. My faith in God is completely based on hope. And gratefulness... for all the times He has pulled me out of the abyss. He has been faithful, even when I was not.

 

Anyway, one discernment skill (I'm learning) is to look for signs of the Fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. It has to be present in the end works, or it is not of God.