Do you believe in magic?

[always_searching]

This may be a strange question to be asking before Easter, but I've been thinking about magic lately. When I say "magic", I don't mean Harry Potter flying around on a broomstick--rather, I mean desiring something to happen, and it happening.

 

As a Catholic, I believe in a kind of magic (though, the church wouldn't call it "magic"): we have novenas asking the saints to intercede for us to do various things; we pray to various saints who are patrons of special causes; we believe in the grace of Jesus, but also His grace through Mary; we believe in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist, etc. So, although it is all done via God's will, there still seems to be some magical elements to the practices.

 

I know other faiths (i.e. Wicca, Druidism, Zoroastrianism, etc.) believe that the individual's will in accordance with the god/goddess/gods' power/will can manifest certain things; and then there's this whole craze of "The Secret" where we can manifest pretty much whatever we desire with our own will/thoughts, because the universe "hears and obeys", so to speak.

 

So, I'm curious as to (1) whether you believe in magic, and (2) if you do believe in magic, is it from God, gods, demons, the individual's will, etc?

[Toki]

As a faithful catholic you should believe in Magic as in Occultism and such, you should also believe it is an evil and vile thing (as magik is supposedly invoked through demons/god-kin). Personally I take a neutral stance on Magik, as do I with Religion and God. There are strange things in the universe that even the atheist or science minded people can't necessarily explain, or fail to understand... magik falls under the paranormal branch of reasoning, and it's heavily criticized, ostracized, or just ignored altogether by the science community, but there is compelling evidence to suggest the possibility that something like magik or the paranormal might exist, and when or if ever there is solid evidence I think it will gain credibility. But until that day comes, I will continue having a very difficult time thinking that magik or the paranormal exist.

[CarrieT]

Well, Toki, for starters, for those of us who practice and work in that realm, it is spelled "magick."

 

And I have been studying and practicing for over 30 years so, yes, I believe in magick; I had a radio show in San Diego 25 years ago and was one of the first "media witches" when there were only a half-a-dozen books on the subject (I personally know four of the six authors of those books and am listed in several of them).

 

For us, the "god" is not a Cecil B. Demille-like, white bearded character who lives in the ethers, but is a "godhead" within us.

 

Ask away.

Edited April 4, 2010 by CarrieT

[Toki]

...Anywho, I am aware of the existence of (magick) as I've personally met with the likes of such Occultist/Wiccan authors as Christopher Penczak, Kala Trobe, and Raven Digitalis. Very interesting stuff as far as the history goes... and even then, can I not remain skeptical?

[always_searching]

As a faithful catholic you should believe in Magic as in Occultism and such, you should also believe it is an evil and vile thing (as magik is supposedly invoked through demons/god-kin). Personally I take a neutral stance on Magik, as do I with Religion and God. There are strange things in the universe that even the atheist or science minded people can't necessarily explain, or fail to understand... magik falls under the paranormal branch of reasoning, and it's heavily criticized, ostracized, or just ignored altogether by the science community, but there is compelling evidence to suggest the possibility that something like magik or the paranormal might exist, and when or if ever there is solid evidence I think it will gain credibility. But until that day comes, I will continue having a very difficult time thinking that magik or the paranormal exist.

 

Hi, Toki--thanks for responding.

 

First of all, it depends on what you mean by "magic." If you mean Occult, then the church tells us that since there is only one God, and we cannot manipulate His will, so to speak, then when we are manipulating powers in order for things to occur, and it is not God's power that is being manipulated (since we don't have the power to do that), then it is the power of another being. The only other beings who don't do the will of God and who would bother to do our will are demonic beings.

 

For one, I am fairly open-minded, so unless a person confides in me that they perform evil actions (i.e. murder, curses, etc.), I try not to make a judgment about the good or evil nature of what he/she religiously practices.

 

As far as magic in the Catholic church: of course the church wouldn't call the things I've described such as novenas "magic." My point is that there are things that Catholics (as well as other Christian denominations) practice and believe in that I would broadly constitute as "magic" in that it is rationally unexplainable, and we've helped to bring it about (even though it is ultimately through God's will) by our praying/asking for it i.e. the transubstantiation, novenas, prayer in general, etc.

[always_searching]

Well, Toki, for starters, for those of us who practice and work in that realm, it is spelled "magick."

 

And I have been studying and practicing for over 30 years so, yes, I believe in magick; I had a radio show in San Diego 25 years ago and was one of the first "media witches" when there were only a half-a-dozen books on the subject (I personally know four of the six authors of those books and am listed in several of them).

 

For us, the "god" is not a Cecil B. Demille-like, white bearded character who lives in the ethers, but is a "godhead" within us.

 

Ask away.

 

Hi, CarrieT--

 

So you are Wiccan? I am curious as to what you mean by "a 'godhead' within us." I am not very knowledgeable in Wicca or the occult. I thought, however, that wiccans believed in a male as well as female god. Are there many gods, just one, or is there not one set rule on the matter in Wicca?

 

As far as any form of paganism is concerned: I've personally always been intrigued by the notion of a goddess. LOL, must be the feminist in me!

Edited April 4, 2010 by always_searching

[CarrieT]

...Anywho, I am aware of the existence of (magick) as I've personally met with the likes of such Occultist/Wiccan authors as Christopher Penczak, Kala Trobe, and Raven Digitalis. Very interesting stuff as far as the history goes... and even then, can I not remain skeptical?

 

Of course you can. We thrive on scepticism as it helps build our core belief system. Just wanted to clarify as "magik" (as you originally spelled it) is a Marvel comics character. We add the "k" to "magic" to differentiate from prestidigitation -- or, stage magic.

 

And I won't start name-dropping, but suffice to say that most of those with whom I have practiced (as well as myself), have been doing this long before those you mentioned were born... I know Raven (he wears some of the jewelry I have made).

 

When/If others start joining in this thread to slam me or "confine me to the fires of [their] Christian hell," I want to clarify that I will answer questions about the religion but will not defend my beliefs. I am bound to be "tried as a witch" and whatnot and as I have been doing for more than thirty years, don't give a rat's ass about what a Christian thinks of my lifestyle. Been there, done that...

 

But I will answer questions about the core belief, to the best of my ability.

[CarrieT]

Hi, CarrieT--

 

So you are Wiccan? I am curious as to what you mean by "a 'godhead' within us." I am not very knowledgeable in Wicca or the occult. I thought, however, that wiccans believed in a male as well as female god. Are there many gods, just one, or is there not one set rule on the matter in Wicca?

 

As far as any form of paganism is concerned: I've personally always been intrigued by the notion of a goddess. LOL, must be the feminist in me!

 

I started off studying Wicca/Paganism when I was 12 (heck, almost 35 years ago). About 15 years ago, I "went to the dark side" (as many Wiccans believe) and started studying Ritual Magick.

 

Most Wiccans believe in the duality of the deity; the male and female sides as well as the Elementals (earth, air, fire, water, spirit -- the five elements that make up the Pentagram). Mythology plays a part so that the historical mythologies of the Greek, Roman, Celtic, etc. are just aspects of the same god/goddess theism. Most believe in a system of balance = there is not just one male god or one female goddess, but that the two rule together (again, this is an ethereal, inner belief that the God/Goddess lie within ourselves). Through rituals, ceremonies, "spells," we tap into those forces -- be it male or female -- to channel those powers within us.

 

As these beliefs cross many cultures, they are extremely complex and involved; some only follow the Celtic path, using Irish or Anglo-Saxon references. Others use Egyptian, Roman, Greek, etc. And then there are the aspects of other studies; astrology, runes, tarot, etc.

[always_searching]

I started off studying Wicca/Paganism when I was 12 (heck, almost 35 years ago). About 15 years ago, I "went to the dark side" (as many Wiccans believe) and started studying Ritual Magick.

 

Most Wiccans believe in the duality of the deity; the male and female sides as well as the Elementals (earth, air, fire, water, spirit -- the five elements that make up the Pentagram). Mythology plays a part so that the historical mythologies of the Greek, Roman, Celtic, etc. are just aspects of the same god/goddess theism. Most believe in a system of balance = there is not just one male god or one female goddess, but that the two rule together (again, this is an ethereal, inner belief that the God/Goddess lie within ourselves). Through rituals, ceremonies, "spells," we tap into those forces -- be it male or female -- to channel those powers within us.

 

As these beliefs cross many cultures, they are extremely complex and involved; some only follow the Celtic path, using Irish or Anglo-Saxon references. Others use Egyptian, Roman, Greek, etc. And then there are the aspects of other studies; astrology, runes, tarot, etc.

 

Very interesting.

 

So, I have a few more questions, if I may:

1. You state that both the male and female deities are within us. So, then, there are no transcendent gods? Like, the male and female deities are both within us, yet outside of us?
   
2. What is "Ritual Magick" and why would some consider it "The Dark Side"?
   
3. And if I may also ask a personal question: you state that the "beliefs cross many cultures" and that "some only follow the Celtic path," etc.. Which do you follow?
   
4. Also, another personal question: have you had experiences with magick working? I'm assuming you have. While on this question, I also wonder: is the whole "whatever you do will come back to you times three" rule true? I assume there's an element of karma involved with the kind of spells you cast, but I remember hearing the whole "three" rule on the movie "The Craft", back in the day.
   

Thanks again for enlightening me on the topic!

[ADF]

No, I don't.

[CarrieT]

You state that both the male and female deities are within us. So, then, there are no trThanks again for enlightening me on the topic!

 

The concept of transcendence is a bit of a slippery slope. Unfortunately, many have a visualization of "transcendence" as separate from us -- again, that Cecil B. DeMille/Michaelangelo, white-bearded old man who exists in a nether region.

 

We tend to believe that, yes, the deity/ies are within us and it is through ceremonies/practice/prayer, that we tap into that "higher power." In that regard, it is similar to other Anglo-Saxon Protestant/Catholic religion with their rosaries, Hail Marys, prayers, etc.

 

What is "Ritual Magick" and why would some consider it "The Dark Side"?

Much of the definitive writings of Ritual Magick were done at the turn of the last century by Aleister Crowley who, coming out of the repressed Victorian culture, was the SELF-ASCRIBED "Wickedest Man in the World." He was, in fact, a hedonist, drug user, and more. Many who only practice Wicca look at Ritual Magick (or "Thelema" as Crowley has named it) as a darker form of study -- I believe because it makes one look within themselves and sometimes experience dark things to succeed.

 

And if I may also ask a personal question: you state that the "beliefs cross many cultures" and that "some only follow the Celtic path," etc.. Which do you follow?

That is a question I am asking myself at this time. I was a heavy practitioner of the Kabbalah and Thelema up until four years ago. I have essentially been isolated for these four years and while my bookshelves are still laden with the books, without a group with whom to practice, I have not been comfortable practices by myself. But, coincidentally, I had some correspondence this very afternoon with a rather well known author about my solitude and some personal difficulties I have been experiencing in being alone. I will probably start practicing some simply rituals tomorrow morning...

 

Also, another personal question: have you had experiences with magick working? I'm assuming you have. While on this question, I also wonder: is the whole "whatever you do will come back to you times three" rule true? I assume there's an element of karma involved with the kind of spells you cast, but I remember hearing the whole "three" rule on the movie "The Craft", back in the day.Thanks again for enlightening me on the topic!

 

Yes, I have had lots and lots and lots of experience with magickal workings; in large groups (I ran a May Day ceremony in San Diego for 400 people) and in very small, intimate groups (just two of us). I have always believed in "the three-fold law" which is the same as Karma.

[2sunny]

channeled energy is very powerful. it tends to be most effective when the energy given out is open to receiving on the other end.

 

the lines of communication work most effectively when the channels are wide open.

[CarrieT]

By the way, I will make a point about today, "Easter."

 

The etymological word, "Easter"is based on the Babylonian goddess "Ishtar" or "Ostara" and for the pagans, an era of renewal from the Vernal Equinox. It is where much of the mythology of the bunny and eggs and the concept of renewal comes from.

 

The Wiccan/pagan "wheel of the year" coincides with the agricultural calendar and after a cold winter, this is the beginning of spring and the renewal of life through the growth of plants and crops.

 

Bear in mind that Christians don't really have a seasonal timeline to their mythos (those things that happened in the Bible). Many Christian holidays coincide with more-ancient pagan holidays; this was done by the early Christian church to get to the factions to coincide. MANY early churches have architectural motifs of pagan deities built into their design with the intent that the church could convert the pagans; "see, you can come to our church because your god is here already" sort of thinking (google Green Man for that info).

 

But Happy Easter to those of you who want to celebrate the Dead Guy On The Cross. A bunch of us are celebrating the fertility and sense of renewal through bunnies and eggs, older symbols hearkening back to the heathens and pagans.

[threebyfate]

I don't believe that magic exists. But human beings have electromagnetic fields. We can attract or repulse, just like magnets.

[wuggle]

I don't believe that magic exists. But human beings have electromagnetic fields. We can attract or repulse, just like magnets.

 

A stone can have a far greater electromagnetic field than a person, aint no way I'm doing it with a rock

 

I really don't believe that humans attract or repulse each other based on electromagnetic influence, manners, yes, personality, yep, intelligence, yep, chemistry, yep, Electromagnetism, Nope. Show me the studies.

[always_searching]

But Happy Easter to those of you who want to celebrate the Dead Guy On The Cross. A bunch of us are celebrating the fertility and sense of renewal through bunnies and eggs, older symbols hearkening back to the heathens and pagans.

 

Thank you, CarrieT for all of your information! However, I have to say that Easter for Christians is not about "the Dead Guy On The Cross." We morn His death on Good Friday, and celebrate His resurrection on Easter. So, today we are celebrating the renewal of life as well--the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

 

I am aware of Easter coinciding with the pagan traditions, as does Christmas. I think it's all very interesting, and if someone tries to deny that fact (viz. that many pagan traditions survived within Christianity), I would question their historical knowledge. However, I get the feeling you have personal issues with Christianity, CarrieT. I realize there are many judgmental people who follow all walks of life, but not all of us Christians are idiotic, narrow-minded, judgmental haters.

 

So, for all of us who are celebrating life (in one form or another) today: Happy Easter!

 

:bunny:

Edited April 4, 2010 by always_searching

[always_searching]

A stone can have a far greater electromagnetic field than a person, aint no way I'm doing it with a rock

 

I really don't believe that humans attract or repulse each other based on electromagnetic influence, manners, yes, personality, yep, intelligence, yep, chemistry, yep, Electromagnetism, Nope. Show me the studies.

 

So, I take it you don't believe in magic, wuggle? Or just not electromagnetism in humans being strong enough to repulse or attract?

Edited April 4, 2010 by always_searching

[wuggle]

So, I take it you don't believe in magic, wuggle? Or just not electromagnetism?

 

As a person of a very scientific bent, of course I believe in electomagnetism. I am very familiar with it's effects (in several materials, not just ferric compounds), cause etc (well at least down to the same level as most scientist, ie just sub-atomic, beyond that who the hell knows).

 

I do NOT however, believe there is any evidence or studies to suggest that it is in any way involved in attraction between two living human beings. That just sounds silly

[threebyfate]

So, I take it you don't believe in magic, wuggle? Or just not electromagnetism in humans being strong enough to repulse or attract?

He's just doing his normal, taking a run at me, no matter if I said the sky is blue.

[wuggle]

He's just doing his normal, taking a run at me, no matter if I said the sky is blue.

 

Untrue, I just hate nonsense put forth as fact with nothing to back it up. If that just happens to apply to you more often than most, there's not much I can do about that.

[threebyfate]

Untrue, I just hate nonsense put forth as fact with nothing to back it up. If that just happens to apply to you more often than most, there's not much I can do about that.

Let's test that assumption, since I know for fact that it's based on emotional bias, rather than steeped in fact.

1. People have electromagnetic fields.
   
2. Magnets attract and repulse through electromagnetic fields.
   

Are both the above true statements?

[wuggle]

Let's test that assumption, since I know for fact that it's based on emotional bias, rather than steeped in fact.

1. People have electromagnetic fields.
   
2. Magnets attract and repulse through electromagnetic fields.
   

Are both the above true statements?

 

Excellent example of what I was talking about, nonsense put forward as fact, which is often taken at face value by those more gullible people on this site, especially if the person stating this has an air of authority granted by the extremely high post count etc.

 

Whilst both of your selective questions are evidently true, this means nothing, as indicated in my initial response to your statement. A rock (especially one high in ferric compounds) can and often does have a much higher electromagnetic field than a living human being, my humourous counter to your statement was that if your statement had any validity then there would be an element of society that found itself irresistably attracted to rocks. your initial statement was:-

 

"We can attract or repulse, just like magnets"

 

The intended implication of this statement was that human interactions, namely attraction and repulsion, are in any way affected by electromagnetic attraction or repulsion. This was very misleading and was either a deliberate confusing of the issues that govern human interactions or a very uneducated one for which I asked you to provide supporting evidence (eg scientific studies).

[always_searching]

As a person of a very scientific bent, of course I believe in electomagnetism.

 

Haha, right. I noticed the error of my statement, which is why I edited it. Apparently, you got to it before I did!

 

 

So, as a "person of a very scientific bent", you believe in nothing supernatural?

 

What about quantum physics? LOL, that area of "science" always seemed rather in the same arena as "supernatural" to me.

[wuggle]

Haha, right. I noticed the error of my statement, which is why I edited it. Apparently, you got to it before I did!

 

 

So, as a "person of a very scientific bent", you believe in nothing supernatural?

 

What about quantum physics? LOL, that area of "science" always seemed rather in the same arena as "supernatural" to me.

 

No problems. I do not believe in anything supernatural, in the sense that most people define the word. I do however believe that there is loads of stuff that we do not understand yet, some of which can appear 'magic' or supernatural'.

 

TV would have appeared magic 200 years ago. The internet and telephone as well at different points in human understanding. Things are only 'supernatural' or 'magic' until we understand them.

 

Re quantum physics, this is one of my favourite personal interests, and yes in this you are quite true. There is a saying in Quantum physics that if you think you understand it you really don't

[threebyfate]

The intended implication of this statement was that human interactions, namely attraction and repulsion, are in any way affected by electromagnetic attraction or repulsion. This was very misleading and was either a deliberate confusing of the issues that govern human interactions or a very uneducated one for which I asked you to provide supporting evidence (eg scientific studies).

Speaking of assumptions of implications, go back to the original post that you had issue with. Where in my post did I state that it had to do with human interactions? The premise of this thread discusses magic, hence my post about electromagnetic fields within human beings being able to attract or repulse, potentially creating the illusion of magic, just like magnets do.