Do you believe in magic?

[always_searching]

I don't know--I know of some pretty fine-looking rocks.

 

Wuggle, what about people with pica? LOL, maybe they are indeed "drawn" to the rocks, dirt, etc. that they eat?

 

Seriously, though: there are studies that rocks, magnets, etc. can alter human health, appearance, desires, etc., which is why there is alternative medicine that utilizes rocks for various kinds of massage therapy as well as wearing magnates, rocks, gemstones, etc. So, there may be something to it…?

 

I take it you and TBF go way back in your posting disagreements? Come on, you two! Love and friendship!

 

:bunny:*hugs*:bunny:

[wuggle]

I take it you and TBF go way back in your posting disagreements?

 

No idea who she is

 

Wuggle, what about people with pica? LOL, maybe they are indeed "drawn" to the rocks, dirt, etc. that they eat?

 

Seriously, though: there are studies that rocks, magnets, etc. can alter human health, appearance, desires, etc., which is why there is alternative medicine that utilizes rocks for various kinds of massage therapy as well as wearing magnates, rocks, gemstones, etc. So, there may be something to it…?

 

As a good scientist I have to concede that anything is possible, until we know for sure that it isn't. BUT whilst we allow that anything may be possible we also balance out the evidence for and against, usually in the west in the form of scientic studies, performed objectively using good practice guidelines.

 

Whilst there have been studies which suggest that low level magnetic fields have an influence on humans at a genetic, and physical level, there are just as many studies done to say that they don't, so I would say that the jury is out on that one. I have never seen a study that implies that electromagnetic fields affect human relationships though.

 

re the crystals, personal opinion, probably not much influence one way or another, but ready to be proved wrong.

 

re the Massage, I know for a fact that they are brilliant and DO affect my relationships.

[threebyfate]

Seriously, though: there are studies that rocks, magnets, etc. can alter human health, appearance, desires, etc., which is why there is alternative medicine that utilizes rocks for various kinds of massage therapy as well as wearing magnates, rocks, gemstones, etc. So, there may be something to it…?

I'm not certain I would take it that far in belief, since human health and wellbeing needs a lot more research before relying on rocks, to make people better.

 

But as electromagnetic fields relate to magic, it's possible that it can create the illusion of magic.

 

I take it you and TBF go way back in your posting disagreements? Come on, you two! Love and friendship!

 

:bunny:*hugs*:bunny:

I've tried to make peace with wuggle more than once. It's pretty futile since he's too emotional.

[CarrieT]

Thank you, CarrieT for all of your information! However, I have to say that Easter for Christians is not about "the Dead Guy On The Cross." We morn His death on Good Friday, and celebrate His resurrection on Easter. So, today we are celebrating the renewal of life as well--the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I appreciate the semantics of the timing that for Christians, Easter is about renewal and resurrection, but for many non-Christians, the entire religion as a whole is based on "the dead guy on the cross," be it his so-called birthday, his resurrection, or the party that he catered with the fish and wine.

 

However, I get the feeling you have personal issues with Christianity, CarrieT. I realize there are many judgmental people who follow all walks of life, but not all of us Christians are idiotic, narrow-minded, judgmental haters.

I confess many issues with the Christian church (a religion, by the way, in which I was raised), as have many of my friends (I can't tell you how many of my GayBoys were abused altar boys!)

 

Yes, people are extremely judgmental regardless of their religion. And I wish it were not so, but I have had more negative experiences with Christians than almost every other religion combined. As with most any extreme sects (including Islam, Buddhist, Judaism, etc), it is those hard-core fundamentalists who make a bad name for the rest of the religion. But living in a mostly Christian country, I tend to have to deal with the vehemence of the fundamentalist Christians moreso than a fundamentalist Islamic.

[pureinheart]

Sorry for the tj...I am the Queen of tj'ing...anyway back to my tj...Wuggle and Always Searching ....I just love your avatars! Beautiful.

 

TBF....I love the emotional bias, as this happens quite often in the forum I frequent. I have been looking for a term to communicate this, and now I got it...(but not Got it...lol...more LS humor)...oh and BTW, I have not a clue as to what you and Wuggle are discussing, so Wuggle I am not agreeing, just love the statement as I have no brain left what so ever after having all three of my very busy grand children today..another BTW, TBF you have a great sense of humor, I like how you word certain things, it's like I can hear you saying it...you know?

[pureinheart]

Sorry for the tj...I am the Queen of tj'ing...anyway back to my tj...Wuggle and Always Searching ....I just love your avatars! Beautiful.

 

TBF....I love the emotional bias, as this happens quite often in the forum I frequent. I have been looking for a term to communicate this, and now I got it...(but not Got it...lol...more LS humor)...oh and BTW, I have not a clue as to what you and Wuggle are discussing, so Wuggle I am not agreeing, just love the statement as I have no brain left what so ever after having all three of my very busy grand children today..another BTW, TBF you have a great sense of humor, I like how you word certain things, it's like I can hear you saying it...you know?

 

Pure

 

I would just like to point out that Wuggle does not actually demonstrate the emotional bias that TBF refers to. It is an attempt to undermine his credibility because she does not like him. He does not just agree with her as quickly as some do on here which does not go down well with some. He has more backbone than that.

 

And yes, I am now showing bias because Wuggle is my husband and I know him whereas TBF has not got a clue on this subject.

 

First bold...Just wanted to make sure you saw this Anne (I love your avatar too BTW). Second bold... For those who agree for the sake of agreeing is not good, it's much better to be your own person and grow...it's cool to be a nice person, but a yes person -nahhhhhh

[Eve]

So, I'm curious as to (1) whether you believe in magic, and (2) if you do believe in magic, is it from God, gods, demons, the individual's will, etc?

 

1. I see magic as creative illusions which are entertaining.

 

'Magick', I see as a means of calling on spirits etc. This is generally frowned upon within many many branches of Christianity because The Holy Spirit is often not regarded as being central to the practice/s being observed.

 

Within my own searching I have found that King Solomon, (within Scripture) had a very interesting take on binding and releasing spirits. For further info look up 'The Key of Solomon'. So, in this respect I do not fear those who try and use spells, I just dont have such an interest in trying this out personally but use of the grimoires are of interest to me in some respects.

 

2. I follow the first commandment, 'I will have only one God' and so only call on The Holy Spirit in line with my own will. I do believe that people call on demons etc but often call it something else. The rule I follow is to care about the individual and not idolise any material or symbolic entity.

 

I suppose this essence of calling on ancient spirits kind of binds all religions and I like that because I do see sense in many of them and I can only assume that they (the ancients) like myself have come across the same spirits and entities over the centuries regardless of culture or religion. Its just putting it all within a time line and seeing how one religion influenced the other..

 

For me, this also includes not idolising Jesus but instead being one with Him. Hence my sense of association to Christian Mysticism and not orthodox Christianity, which I see as serving Western Capitalist leanings over the last hundred or so years and not much else.

 

Interestingly I have found that many who do not follow the typical line of Christianity and lean towards magick or developing their natural psychic abilities are often more interesting and loving than the average Christian and so I dont scorn them..

 

Oh, I quite like 'The Secret'.. At the end of the day I do think that there is something inherently truthful in the idea that you get what you give out. I would say that this matches my life experiences and observations of others.

 

All in all I am equally careful within how I view the religious zealot and the outright heathen because I see them as being one and the same in many respects.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Enema]

Carrie - Can you give us some examples of real magick you have worked and the results?

 

Specifically, I'm interested to know if you can provide examples of something that couldn't have just happened naturally.

 

ie. I worked magick and got that promotion I always wanted. *yawn*

[threebyfate]

First bold...Just wanted to make sure you saw this Anne (I love your avatar too BTW). Second bold... For those who agree for the sake of agreeing is not good, it's much better to be your own person and grow...it's cool to be a nice person, but a yes person -nahhhhhh

Do you recognize manipulation? Consider it a form of social magic!

[SaintDragon]

David Copperfield made me a believer a long time ago.

 

I wish he would make Joan Rivers disappear.

[always_searching]

I confess many issues with the Christian church (a religion, by the way, in which I was raised), as have many of my friends (I can't tell you how many of my GayBoys were abused altar boys!)

 

Yes, people are extremely judgmental regardless of their religion. And I wish it were not so, but I have had more negative experiences with Christians than almost every other religion combined. As with most any extreme sects (including Islam, Buddhist, Judaism, etc), it is those hard-core fundamentalists who make a bad name for the rest of the religion. But living in a mostly Christian country, I tend to have to deal with the vehemence of the fundamentalist Christians moreso than a fundamentalist Islamic.

 

I am sorry to hear about your friends having been abused as altar boys--it is a grave and disturbingly all too common occurrence.

 

I am also sorry that you've had so many personal attacks by Christians. Before I converted, I too was attacked (which had nothing to do with my deciding to convert). One woman who was my 40 year old roommate a little over a year ago found out I was unbaptized went around telling people that she was living with a pagan and that she felt the house needed blessed because of it. She thought I had evil demons and that I was going to hell. Haha, she even questioned me about what I do in my room, implying that I was doing some kind of devil worship, or something. It was absurd, but kind of hilarious at the same time. I thought about pouring fake blood all over me, getting naked, and chanting outside her window during a full moon...

 

...I restrained myself, as I could have gotten kicked-out of school.

 

Speaking of which, she also tried to get me kicked-out, but that's a different story.

 

 

Anyway, my suggestion is not to allow a few idiots ruin a whole religion for you. If I would have based my notion of Catholicism off of her, or the men whom I've spoken with who claim women have a place and it's at home with the kids, etc.: I would never have become Catholic. There are ignorant people in every faith, and, since Christianity is the leading faith in the West as far as numbers go, there are bound to be more ignorant Christians than any other faith.

 

Let Christ and His actions, words, teachings, etc. inform your views regarding Christianity--He's the best example of a "good Christian", after all.

[always_searching]

I enjoy our interactions, as stated many a time.

 

:D

 

I thought so, but didn't want to make any assumptions. The feeling is entirely mutual!

 

I find it's in debate and disagreements that the greatest knowledge is formed and understanding is cultivated. It's like purifying gold--one needs fire!

[CarrieT]

Let Christ and His actions, words, teachings, etc. inform your views regarding Christianity--He's the best example of a "good Christian", after all.

 

I'm sorry, but for me there can be no worse charlatan than "Christ." His "words, teachings, etc" upon which the church is based came about from writings that have been edited and re-edited over the millennium.

 

To me, Christ is akin to Buddha, Mohamed, and any other enlightened student of the various paths; no better and no worse, but certainly NOT divine and most certainly flawed, as any other man is flawed.

 

The "Christ" that probably did exist has had his existence manipulated and mythologized by the likes of Paul and the other "gospels" who re-wrote the stories to meld into that dogma which they themselves wanted to promote.

 

I know you mean well by wishing I and others would embrace "Christ," but for me, that part of the church is the biggest aspect of the Grand Lie which we despise.

[always_searching]

Well, I don't quite agree with Jesus being a charlatan since his intentions were not to deceive people into thinking he was God.

 

As for the quote from always_searching about Jesus being the best example of a "good christian"... I am sorry, but he was Jewish, 100% wholeheartedly devoted to Judaism.

 

I'd agree that He was the best Jew as well as the best Christian; yet, though He was devoted to Judaism, He and His teachings were not supported by most Jews, nor was He only interested in teaching and saving merely the Jews, but the Gentiles (and everyone else) as well. He came with a very different message than Judaism (forget customs i.e. ritual baths, etc.) that centered around love and a particular kind of living rather than sets of customs or rules.

 

So, yes, He was Jewish and He was the best example of a Jew, but as Christian etymologically only means "Follower of Christ" (Christ meaning "messiah" and specifically applying to Jesus of Nazareth), and Christ gave a different variation and understanding of the Jewish tradition: I would say He was the best Christian, as He was "Christ."

[always_searching]

I'm sorry, but for me there can be no worse charlatan than "Christ." His "words, teachings, etc" upon which the church is based came about from writings that have been edited and re-edited over the millennium.

 

To me, Christ is akin to Buddha, Mohamed, and any other enlightened student of the various paths; no better and no worse, but certainly NOT divine and most certainly flawed, as any other man is flawed.

 

The "Christ" that probably did exist has had his existence manipulated and mythologized by the likes of Paul and the other "gospels" who re-wrote the stories to meld into that dogma which they themselves wanted to promote.

 

I know you mean well by wishing I and others would embrace "Christ," but for me, that part of the church is the biggest aspect of the Grand Lie which we despise.

 

I have much to say on the matter, but have to get ready for class!

 

I will say this: I do wish everyone would embrace Christ, but that wasn't the point of my post--I was just relating my own experience with Christianity. The only point I was trying to relate is that one should read what Christ had to say, and not base his/her views of Christianity upon flawed individuals who happen to be Christian.

 

Plus, I would never suggest one read St. Paul to gather his/her information about Christ--read the gospels. Even if you don't believe Christ is God, you cannot deny that His teachings are sound and good--that He is, at the very least, an enlightened person.

 

He had a good message. Of course, I won't deny that some people have distorted it and used it to their own advantage...

[Tony]

Let's please kindly keep this thread on topic without having conversations about other members that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Use this forum for which it was intended. Many thanks to all of you!

[CarrieT]

Plus, I would never suggest one read St. Paul to gather his/her information about Christ--read the gospels.

Well, like many touting a specific religion, one has to take all of the writing on that subject in their context so embracing one and dismissing others is a fairly standard practice.

 

Even if you don't believe Christ is God, you cannot deny that His teachings are sound and good--that He is, at the very least, an enlightened person.

Suffice to say, I have read ALL the gospels -- as I have read the Torah, the Talmud, the Qur'an, the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita, the Gnostic Gospels, and more.

 

I do not deny that the core teachings of Christianity aren't good -- in fact, they are remarkably similar to those I have already mentioned.

 

That is the point I am trying to make about those of us who study various occult paths; we read and study EVERYTHING involving various religions and acknowledge that there are aspects of truth in almost all of them. We study those parallels and correspondences at great length.

 

My angst against many Christians are those who do not bother reading any other sacred texts while touting only their own as "the only true religion." Now, Always Searching, I am not saying that you are one of those people at all, but it is a very prevalent practice for many in ANY religion to have a myopic view of their faith because it is all they know and study.

 

I'll go back to the beginning; for those of us who are involved in occult and magickal practices, we tend to hold that the divinity is within us and that men like Buddha and Mohammed and Jesus were no more divine that we are; they were flawed and human, as we all are. They were simply more adept at acknowledging and tapping into those forces within us -- which many of us who practice the occult -- are also working to tap into; some with more success than others.

[always_searching]

Well, like many touting a specific religion, one has to take all of the writing on that subject in their context so embracing one and dismissing others is a fairly standard practice.

 

I wasn't suggesting that we should accept some and dismiss others, I was just saying that if you want to know about the life of Christ, it is better to read about it via the Gospels than to read St. Paul's letters. All are good and needed for the historical context, as has been mentioned--I was just making a suggestion as far as the life of Christ is concerned.

 

 

Suffice to say, I have read ALL the gospels -- as I have read the Torah, the Talmud, the Qur'an, the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita, the Gnostic Gospels, and more.

 

As have I, with the exception of Vedas and Bhagavad Gita (I've been meaning to get around to them...).

 

I do not deny that the core teachings of Christianity aren't good -- in fact, they are remarkably similar to those I have already mentioned.

 

That is the point I am trying to make about those of us who study various occult paths; we read and study EVERYTHING involving various religions and acknowledge that there are aspects of truth in almost all of them. We study those parallels and correspondences at great length.

 

I don't think that religious study only applies to those who study the occult. I have attempted to read as much as I possibly could on various religions in order to make the best choice when converting--I too find positive teachings in all of them. Of course, the one commonality seems to be the Golden Rule viz. "Do unto others...", but there are many others, such as love. I was agnostic for eight years, deist for one, theist for three, and a Catholic for one and a half. I thought Christianity would be the last religion for me--it seemed oppressive and to involve a group mentality that was frighteningly ignorant to my way of thinking. It wasn't until I had a conversion of faith via an experience I couldn't rationally explain that I decided to convert. I still can't believe it happened, but it did. That, of course, doesn't mean that I don't find worth in other religions--I believe God can manifest Himself differently in different times to different people, cultures, etc. I am certainly not going to judge anyone or to worry about the speck in my neighbor's eye when I have a whole forest in my own.

 

Conversely, I don't think it's right to judge all Christians based upon one negative experience, nor do I think it's right to assume that only those studying the occult are well-rounded in their religious historicity. I would never make broad assumptions about Wiccans, Pagans, Jews, Muslims, etc.

 

My angst against many Christians are those who do not bother reading any other sacred texts while touting only their own as "the only true religion." Now, Always Searching, I am not saying that you are one of those people at all, but it is a very prevalent practice for many in ANY religion to have a myopic view of their faith because it is all they know and study.

 

I agree. And I think it's unfortunate and shows a great ignorance on their part that they wouldn't desire to be more educated regarding other faiths.

 

I'll go back to the beginning; for those of us who are involved in occult and magickal practices, we tend to hold that the divinity is within us and that men like Buddha and Mohammed and Jesus were no more divine that we are; they were flawed and human, as we all are. They were simply more adept at acknowledging and tapping into those forces within us -- which many of us who practice the occult -- are also working to tap into; some with more success than others.

 

Right. Many other religions agree with you--some branches of philosophy do as well e.g. Platonism.

 

So, to stay on topic, since my threads are currently being slammed by the moderators: may I ask what kinds of experiences you've had in your magical dealings? What kinds of spells have you performed? If you perform a spell and it doesn't work, why is that? Are you just not concentrating hard enough? Are the gods not working with you? Or, do they always work if performed correctly?

[CarrieT]

So, to stay on topic, since my threads are currently being slammed by the moderators: may I ask what kinds of experiences you've had in your magical dealings? What kinds of spells have you performed? If you perform a spell and it doesn't work, why is that? Are you just not concentrating hard enough? Are the gods not working with you? Or, do they always work if performed correctly?

 

Here are a few examples of "spells" I have done; when I first began studying Wicca, I hated my apartment and I hated my job. I did a very elaborate spell to get a new place to live and a new job. Within 48 hours, I was fired AND evicted. Guess what? I had to get a new job and a new place to live teaching me the adage, "be careful what you wish for."

 

25 years later, I thought I had learned my lesson when I did a very elaborate spell to get me a new man; I wanted well-read, worldly, intelligent, "tall, dark, and handsome," etc. I wanted someone who would bring me places I never had gone -- physically, emotionally, sexually -- the typical Prince Charming scenario. And, yes, I got everything I asked for; my last Ex was the son and grandson of casino owners who was Pepperdine educated, spoke five languages, and incredibly charismatic and handsome. And the first 18 months of our relationship was straight out of a Disney movie in that I got my Prince Charming.

 

I also got a raving, bi-polar alcoholic with more personal demons than anyone else I ever knew. Although it took more more than two decades to re-learn the lesson, I won't use magick again to procure a relationship. I am, however, using some magickal practices to rid myself of the demons which still exist from the messy break-up and those do seem to be working.

[always_searching]

LisaLee,

 

I understand what you are saying in relation to the confusion regarding Christ as the first Christian. I wasn't meaning to use the term in an ambiguous or misleading manner.

 

All I'm saying is that in so far as the etymology of the word means "Follower of Christ" and Christ started the movement--even if he didn't intend to: He was the first Christian. It's like talking about Thomists, Aristotelians, Platonists, Buddhists, etc. The terms themselves delegate the person to whom the tradition is ascribed within their very etymology. So, Thomas Aquinas, in so far as he is followed, understood, and studied by the Thomists is the first Thomist. Of course he wouldn't consider himself a Thomist--he'd consider himself a Christian who wrote defending Christianity and Aristotelianism with a Platonic undertone. Haha, he probably would have laughed at his followers calling themselves "Thomists", or have been concerned that they were too busy following him and not Christ. So, again, I am only referencing the etymology of the words themselves, not what the word may designate to the founder of a particular school of thought.

 

So, again to keep this post on topic: as a Religious Studies major, what are your thoughts on magic, LisaLee?

[always_searching]

Here are a few examples of "spells" I have done; when I first began studying Wicca, I hated my apartment and I hated my job. I did a very elaborate spell to get a new place to live and a new job. Within 48 hours, I was fired AND evicted. Guess what? I had to get a new job and a new place to live teaching me the adage, "be careful what you wish for."

 

I also got a raving, bi-polar alcoholic with more personal demons than anyone else I ever knew. Although it took more more than two decades to re-learn the lesson, I won't use magick again to procure a relationship.

 

Oh my word! So, do casting spells usually have that kind of adverse affect? Like, if you aren't specific enough that you end up getting what you asked for, but not what you necessarily intended? Have you heard of happy endings to magical dealings? Also, why is it, do you think, that they work in that manner?

 

I am, however, using some magickal practices to rid myself of the demons which still exist from the messy break-up and those do seem to be working.

 

Well, that is good!

Edited April 8, 2010 by always_searching
Clarification

[Enema]

I guess that answers my question too.

 

Nothing real that couldn't have just happened anyway. Ahh well, it's fun to think magick could exist.

[lilymusiq]

For some reason, magic has forever lost its credibility especially after watching Gob in Arrested Development. I know it's a show, but I forever associate his antics with the tricks

[bluewolf17]

Carrie,

 

I find you fascinating!! Great post's and responses.

[Disillusioned]

Belief in magic defies empirical evidence. There are a few things science can't fully explain (why we're sentient and our dogs and cats are not, for example), but believing in magic is to chuck Einstein's Theory of Relativity out the window. It's possible to turn matter into energy and vice versa, but it isn't possible to create either one out of nothing or to make it disappear.

 

Re God, and other beings of spirit... to believe in these is to believe it's possible for a disembodied mind to float through air (and that requires energy) and do real things (which requires matter). A real stretch of the imagination.

 

But Kant, the philosopher, essentially said it's all in the perception, when the question was put to him. Nowadays, neurologists have scanning machines which can tell us what's going on in the temporal lobes of the brains of people who swear up and down that they can see or hear God, the BVM, or other beings of spirit. It's now believed that Muhammad, Joan of Arc, and Fyodor Dostoyevsky had temporal lobe epilepsy, which was responsible for their visions and perceived voices.

 

If you think I'm full of crap, look it up for yourself.