Souls

[threebyfate]

Do human beings have souls? If we have souls and are connected in some spiritual way, why would genocide and attempted genocide exist? Why would racism, pedophilia, misogyny and misandry exist? Why would people lie, steal and cheat? Why would people get involved with previously committed others? Why would we begrudge others medical care? Why are there no altruistic human beings?

 

I'm starting to disbelieve in souls. We're no better or worse than evolved animals. Beyond religious text and dogma, prove to me that we have souls. I see no evidence of souls, whatsoever.

[norajane]

Why did you believe in souls to begin with? And what made you think that souls had anything to do with altruism?

 

I don't know what souls are or are supposed to be. If anything, I would think of a soul as that unique core essence or spirit that makes one human different from another. Using animals as an example, one cat is different from another despite being cats and not being as evolved as humans, yes? That difference in them that makes each one unique is what I think of a soul or their spirit. Same for humans.

 

I know religions have different views of what souls are or are supposed to be, but I've never subscribed to them. The only thing I can accept is that the soul or spirit of a person is their unique essence that makes them them. And if it lives on after death, it only lives on in our memories of them.

[ADF]

We are evolved animals. As one writer put it, human beings are risen apes, not fallen angels. There is no such thing as a soul.

[quankanne]

the soul or spirit of a person is their unique essence that makes them them

 

I believe this, too; therefore, I believe people possess souls.

 

If we have souls and are connected in some spiritual way, why would genocide and attempted genocide exist? Why would racism, pedophilia, misogyny and misandry exist? Why would people lie, steal and cheat? Why would people get involved with previously committed others? Why would we begrudge others medical care? Why are there no altruistic human beings?

 

altruistic souls are out there, to some degree, but who is going to pay attention to them when we want to be tittilated by mayhem and hate? And those negative things exist because people give in to those impulses to act that way. Or maybe it's truly a case of "the devil made me do it!"

[Toki]

Your question doesn't really address the need for a soul, it seems more like a free will question. So whether you have a soul or not, and if there truly is a "god(s)" you are pretty much free to loot, rape, and kill too your hearts content. Seems like a rather **** deal if you look at it from that aspect, hence religion's need to remind people that if they do such arbitrary things your soul is in danger. The way I look at it, if you're already the type of person that does these things, you're already in a hell of sorts. Or as Voltaire so eloquently put it "Those who can make you believe in lies, can also make you commit atrocities."

[shadowofman]

Soul is a vague term in the first place. And one person's definition is likely to defer from another's. And everyone seems to have a opinion as to who and what houses a soul. Humans, apes, dogs and cats. Do worms have souls? Does the soul come in a variety of forms based on the varieties in the complexities of organisms. In other words, do we have "greater" souls than apes? Apes souls greater than dogs, and etc down the line? Isn't this just synonymous with varieties in brain structure and chemistry?

 

It's likely that what we call a soul is the unique structure, conductivity and chemical reactivity of any central nervous system. Maybe better described as the unique combination of emotionality and experience that would set one individual apart from another. And variety abounds for better or worse. Even over time in one individual based on the fact that one can learn more, experience more, alter brain chemicals. Any other attributes we might assign to the "true nature" of Being is wishful thinking, most likely delusion, or guesswork (poor and untestable hypothesis if you want scientific credibility).

[Eve]

I view the soul as being our conscience.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Crusoe]

No, I don't believe we have souls. Not because of any evil humans may do, I just don't believe in them. We are animals, a part of nature, we have intelligence and we are aware of our mortality, but all we are is walking, talking worm food. Full circle, back to the bottom of the food chain. We are just a part of the chain, no more, no less. To believe I have a soul means I must believe a dung beetle has a soul.

[threebyfate]

Thanks for your perspectives.

 

What I should have done, was to discuss this with two threads. The first thread would have been to figure out what a soul is, the second to discuss if we have them or not.

 

If a soul is a unique identifier like a Social Security number which dies with human or animal bodies, I can accept this definition. If you want to get technical, it's like a combination of our genetic fingerprint and experiences in life. Nature/nurture.

 

It's the definition of a connection to a greater "good" or transcendental plain/dimension, I have difficulties with. Souls aren't good or pure. Souls aren't what separate us from animals. If they were, we wouldn't have so much evil happening in this world.

[grogster]

The "soul" is a christianized re-branding of Platonic "forms" or "ideas." It cannot be weighed or measured and is not otherwise detectable by machine or human senses. The very concept of a soul is an outdated, theological fiction--one supplanted by neuroscience.

 

I am soulless; we all are.

 

Yet, the "soul" is a useful fiction because it helps us all live together. I wouldn't be surprised if natural selection favored those who believe in the soul.

[shadowofman]

It's the definition of a connection to a greater "good" or transcendental plain/dimension, I have difficulties with. Souls aren't good or pure. Souls aren't what separate us from animals. If they were, we wouldn't have so much evil happening in this world.

 

And on that note. The existence of good and evil is also vague. It seems to me that there is no good and evil, but only the consequences of my actions. Good and evil only exists in the minds of other people that view my actions. In other words how we judge each other and not necessarily a reality of the physical universe. Just as the soul is an abstract or metaphor, and not a physical reality.

[always_searching]

Thanks for your perspectives.

 

What I should have done, was to discuss this with two threads. The first thread would have been to figure out what a soul is, the second to discuss if we have them or not.

 

If a soul is a unique identifier like a Social Security number which dies with human or animal bodies, I can accept this definition. If you want to get technical, it's like a combination of our genetic fingerprint and experiences in life. Nature/nurture.

 

It's the definition of a connection to a greater "good" or transcendental plain/dimension, I have difficulties with. Souls aren't good or pure. Souls aren't what separate us from animals. If they were, we wouldn't have so much evil happening in this world.

 

You are right to bring this point about defining souls up, TBF. I don't usually appeal to Aristotle, as I disagree with him regarding various things, but he does make perfect sense in this regard. (To my way of thinking, anyway, lol, which I'm sure you'll disagree with! )

 

Aristotle claimed all living things have souls--be them plant, animal, or human. To have a soul, for Aristotle, merely means to possess life.

 

The difference between a human soul versus all other forms of life is that the human soul is rational. This, according to Aristotle, is a radically different kind of soul than others. From our previous discussions, I would assume that you disagree with the premise that (1) only human souls are rational, and/or (2) that rationality designates any real importance upon the bearer. So, this explanation probably will not appease you, but I thought I'd give it, nevertheless.

 

 

The issues relating to souls being "good" (I'm assuming here you mean "morally good", since you bring up genocide, misandry, etc.) is a complicated question. I'll give you my Catholic response: we are all born good, but due to original sin, we are corrupt and, as such, tempted by evil. Of course, most people (not "all people", mind you) performing evil actions (i.e. genocide) or holding evil views (i.e. racism) don't believe the actions they perform, or what they hold to be true is "evil"--that would be a problem of defective knowledge, I think. If we are talking about people being able to know that what they are doing/thinking is evil, but continue doing/thinking it: that would be, as was previously mentioned, a question concerning free will. Still, I hold that having a disordered will is a result of original sin.

 

This, I am sure, is probably not a satisfactory answer to your (as I understand it) religiously skeptical mind; regardless, I think your question is two-fold, but more in the direction of (1) what is the soul and (2) why, if the soul is good, are we able to perform evil actions? The latter, again, is concerning the question of free will, I think.

 

[always_searching]

The "soul" is a christianized re-branding of Platonic "forms" or "ideas." It cannot be weighed or measured and is not otherwise detectable by machine or human senses. The very concept of a soul is an outdated, theological fiction--one supplanted by neuroscience.

 

I am soulless; we all are.

 

Yet, the "soul" is a useful fiction because it helps us all live together. I wouldn't be surprised if natural selection favored those who believe in the soul.

 

I'm certainly not soulless, and neither are you! If you're soulless, I wonder: do you possess affections, a sense of morality or duty, a sense of identity, etc.? If you don't: I'm concerned. If you do: can you empirically weigh them? Of course not, but does that mean they do not exist? Or, for you, are all of these examples merely products of the vital sphere--physiological and psychological processes that manifest themselves into various idealized phantom notions?

 

Don't deny your personhood, grogster--your soul not only animates you, but makes you who you are. If you want to claim that it is merely vital, that's fine--just don't deny it all together.

Edited April 7, 2010 by always_searching

[shadowofman]

Sin is in the mind of the judge. Right now you may judge evil based on mainstream Christian concepts (holocaust=bad), ignoring archaic Judeo-Christian concepts (stoning=good), and one day in the future the mainstream might shift further. It is highly likely that future generations will regard our rampant carnivorous diets to be immoral.

 

There are only the consequences of our actions.

And in our tendency to judge, there is only our arbitrary, individual moral compasses based on what you will.

[Trimmer]

It's the definition of a connection to a greater "good" or transcendental plain/dimension, I have difficulties with. Souls aren't good or pure. Souls aren't what separate us from animals. If they were, we wouldn't have so much evil happening in this world.

I would really be interested in your reaction to a book I read, and one I mentioned before in a thread you and I participated in here.

 

It's called I am a Strange Loop, by Douglas Hofstadter (2007, Basic Books, New York) and its first chapter is entitled On Souls and Their Sizes. Check out that other thread for a little description of it, then put it on hold at your local library and at least read the first chapter.

 

Personally, I found the book fascinating and disturbing all at the same time, as it convincingly discards the notion of a "soul" as something that God or the Universe or Mother Nature pours into our physical bodies some time between conception and age 3... Disturbing, because as much as I instinctively would like to believe that after my death I'll go to heaven and spend eternity on Bikini Cloud, next to Choclate Shake Lake with all my favorite friends and loved ones, I've always had the sense that I'm more likely to just "switch off," and this book makes a convincing case for that.

 

I'm certainly not soulless, and neither are you! If you're soulless, I wonder: do you possess affections, a sense of morality or duty, a sense of identity, etc.? If you don't: I'm concerned. If you do: can you empirically weigh them? Of course not, but does that mean they do not exist?

On the other hand, just because, by their definition, you cannot empirically weigh them does not lend any credence to the idea that they DO exist. You can't declare and define something that is unmeasurable, and then use that very feature of it to support its existence, as in "just because it's not observable doesn't mean it doesn't exist..." That statement gets you no further than zero.

 

The difference between a human soul versus all other forms of life is that the human soul is rational. This, according to Aristotle, is a radically different kind of soul than others.

I would wonder what "rational" means in this context. Is there anything more rational than a fox chasing a rabbit through the winter snow, but breaking off an unsuccessful chase before it wastes more energy in the chase than it would gain from actually catching and eating the rabbit? There is little about the behaviors of animals that doesn't seem "rational", and there's certainly a lot about the behavior of humans that seems "irrational", so I don't know that it's as bright and clear and concrete a dividing line ("radically different") as you propose.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Trimmer
oops, misspelled "unsuccessful"!

[pureinheart]

Do human beings have souls? If we have souls and are connected in some spiritual way, why would genocide and attempted genocide exist? Why would racism, pedophilia, misogyny and misandry exist? Why would people lie, steal and cheat? Why would people get involved with previously committed others? Why would we begrudge others medical care? Why are there no altruistic human beings?

 

I'm starting to disbelieve in souls. We're no better or worse than evolved animals. Beyond religious text and dogma, prove to me that we have souls. I see no evidence of souls, whatsoever.

 

Is there anything that can really be said to prove anything to anyone...it's something that one knows in their heart.

 

People do what they want, believe what they want...actually by your post you have already decided.

[Toki]

I rather like the Shinto take on spirits, where most naturally occurring phenomena and elements have souls, and it is not something that only living things happen to have. Actually, a stone, tree, fire, or water spirit are much higher in the hierarchy than a human spirit, because of both their importance, and life span. Humans would have an extremely difficult time living without any of these things, so it's only natural (in a Shinto Buddhist mind) that overall, humans are insignificant, and that life plays a rather small role in the universe.

[Isolde]

To me soul is demonstrated through the human will to be better, but the problem is that people contribute in different ways, and some don't contribute at all, to the mass of human endeavor. So I suppose soul isn't wholly a good thing but it can be.

 

For example, I think great compositions of art and music demonstrate "soul" because they heighten the human experience, but that doesn't necessarily mean the creators were good people.

 

I don't think people who commit genocide have souls but that's an extreme example and perhaps should be ignored for now. I think most everyone has some degree of ambition to improve others' lives or the world, therefore I do see evidence of souls every day.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Isolde

[Toki]

If we're talking ethics, I disagree. Humans are by nature creatures who have the need to belong, in the case of Nazi Germany, most people went along with the genocide because if they disagreed, they themselves would most likely meet a grizzly end. Shameful as it may be, most cultures have experienced genocide, whether it was on the giving or receiving end, Europeans had a knack for it, but it was only until it was on an industrial scale that the west understood what a monstrosity we could become. I don't believe every German who didn't do anything about it, were "soulless" and actually by quietly accepting it, they just proved they were spineless and fearful like most humans are. Traditionally "good" people are capable of doing terrible things, if everyone else is doing it too, a brave person stands against it. If you said everyone who participated in Genocide didn't have souls, you're lambasting tens of millions of Germans who struggle with guilt over the issue, even though they had nothing to do with it, a lot of Americans who still feel guilt over the treatment of the natives some fifty to one hundred years ago, Belgians, Serbians, Turks, Chinese, British, French, I mean the list goes on till the beginning of human civilization and perhaps before. I even daresay Israel, who suffered one of the biggest genocides in human history, are they themselves committing a genocide against the Palestinians, who would likewise be perfectly fine with the idea if all Israelis were wiped off the face of the earth. It's a natural human inclination to want to exterminate your enemies...

[threebyfate]

Just more proof that people have no souls if they justify or rationalize genocide or attempted genocide.

[Toki]

Well, I'm not arguing for against the idea of a soul. I don't think it really matters, but I do think Human behavior has relatively little to do with the existence of a soul. That was my point.

[Ms. Joolie]

It's the definition of a connection to a greater "good" or transcendental plain/dimension, I have difficulties with. Souls aren't good or pure. Souls aren't what separate us from animals. If they were, we wouldn't have so much evil happening in this world.

 

In Kabbalah, the soul is to say a 'vessel'. So while humans have this soul, or vessel, it is up to each one of us on what kind of energy we are going to fill ourselves with.

 

We each choose (or blindly follow) the path in front of us. Bad/evil/negative things happen when we choose poorly. If we seek to be positive and proactive in our life, that is a different kind of energy, and good things will follow.

 

It is our choice to choose the greater good, to make that connection.

[Trimmer]

Just more proof that people have no souls if they justify or rationalize genocide or attempted genocide.

Well, as I think you pointed out yourself, earlier, there are really two things under question here. You put it as (1) what is a soul, and then (2) do we have them or not?

 

I would say that the discussions here seem to characterize a soul in two slightly different ways: (1) a "soul" as a source of good, positive, humanity, or (2) a "soul" as a spirit that inhabits an entity that gives it reason, thought, free will, etc.

 

If you use the existence of genocide to determine the existence of a soul, then it sounds to me that you are looking at the first case: if there is evil, then there is "no soul."

 

I am discussing along the second case - the soul as a spirit, neither inherently good, bad, or neutral, which may manifest itself as good, bad, or neutral, as a result of its development, environment, etc., but which by definition, simply represents the essence, the consciousness of a human being.

 

I might pose an interesting question, which challenges your point above (about genocide = no soul.) If a soul is required for our consciousness and humanity, couldn't I then argue that a soul is necessary for evil?

 

Isn't pretty much all "soulless" animal behavior we see based in survival? And yet, it takes a human being, with that thing that separates us from the animals - the soul, if you want to call it that - to visit true evil upon another.

 

I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree here, because I don't personally believe in a soul that is ascendant to heaven or the universe, or whatever, separate from its physical being, but in the context of this discussion, couldn't the existence of evil actually provide evidence of a soul?

Edited April 8, 2010 by Trimmer

[threebyfate]

I am discussing along the second case - the soul as a spirit, neither inherently good, bad, or neutral, which may manifest itself as good, bad, or neutral, as a result of its development, environment, etc., but which by definition, simply represents the essence, the consciousness of a human being.

 

I might pose an interesting question, which challenges your point above (about genocide = no soul.) If a soul is required for our consciousness and humanity, couldn't I then argue that a soul is necessary for evil?

 

Isn't pretty much all "soulless" animal behavior we see based in survival? And yet, it takes a human being, with that thing that separates us from the animals - the soul, if you want to call it that - to visit true evil upon another.

 

I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree here, because I don't personally believe in a soul that is ascendant to heaven or the universe, or whatever, separate from its physical being, but in the context of this discussion, couldn't the existence of evil actually provide evidence of a soul?

You missed something that always searching and I have discussed in the past. She claimed that the difference between animals and humans is the ability to be rational. What she didn`t mention is my rebuttal to her original claim which is supported by the attached article about chimpanzees being rational beings:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071005104104.htm

 

The test chimps were shown a paired down version of the Economics Game. Each time, the chimps reacted in a rational fashion whereby if they received raisins even if the tester received more, they would accept the offer. But consistently, the chimps rejected any offers where they received nothing, regardless if the tester received anything.

 

Human beings consistently reject offers where the share isn`t close to being equal. Now how rational is that when this means they receive nothing? Human beings would rather be spiteful and get nothing, than not receive relatively equal shares.

 

While the above rebutts the rationale that the difference between humans and animals, is the ability to be rational, it does reinforce your devil`s advocate position that souls are necessary to perform evil.

[SaintDragon]

I truly believe that everything has a soul and a purpose in life including plants. Some are very simple and some extremely advanced, but I believe we do have souls. Something just has to be left over when our bodies die(Our vessel) that makes our souls into a physical existence.

 

I believe also that the more advanced souls(humans) are A LOT more intimidated by factors around us such as being yelled at or something bad happening..we get hurt more easily rather than an animal that really isn't effected that bad. In saying that, advanced souls can turn evil or good and I believe, depending on your surroundings or experiences, ANYONE can turn evil or good. Using myself as an example...deep down I believe I have a good soul, I love people and like to try and make them happy..I'm very curious and I don't like to get into trouble..I try to abide the law ect ect. However I am a very sensitive soul.

 

Things bother me a lot more than they should..an insult is taken very hard by me and I still get very frustrated when people step on the core of my soul, mainly about my looks and not having a girlfriend..things like that. Also events I never talk about that have twisted my soul a bit. What I am saying here is that deep inside I am a nice guy, but due to some events around me that happened, I do have a very short temper, I don't tolerate BS crap that well and I can be very mean at times.

 

In conclusion, I believe we have souls, but they can be manipulated either to evil or good with things that happen to our souls...more advanced souls like humans are more opt to suffer because our perception of what we are told and concept of emotion are FAR more advanced than lesser souls and that leaves us vulnerable to being hurt and more opt to turn evil or whatever..

Edited April 8, 2010 by SaintDragon