I think we might be over

[shadowplay]

The last women I was talking to and had developed some feelings for, told me that staying in touch with me would negatively affect her life.

 

Previously, she had told me that talking to me was the sole bright spot in her life while said life seemed to fall apart. To be honest, I still don't understand that and it still makes me sad. And I felt that way even though I knew that day might come.

 

It's so much more difficult for you, since you were in a relationship, in love and those feelings were reciprocated. Those are the times when you don't expect that and the impact is so much worse when it does happen.

 

Everything seems so unnecessary and cruel. It's just that sometimes there are things that you might never be able to make sense of. Accepting that is not easy.

 

Even IF your bf has been negatively affected because he worried so much, that doesn't make it your fault. You said he never shared his doubts with you. Which means that when he crumbled under the pressure, the responsibility for this was his also. Not being aware that he was so preoccupied, you never had a chance to actually help him or make him feel relaxed so he didn't have to worry as much as he supposedly did.

 

You are not a mind reader. And it would also be unfair to expect you to have noticed that he was worried or feeling stressed. For one, it sounds like he hid it very well and you also don't have the advantage of knowing him as long as his brother does.

 

I totally get what you're saying, and yet the little dark voice inside me says, "but it is your fault, because he only worried since you have anxiety, and a girl who didn't have anxiety he wouldn't do this to (this is what he told me)."

 

This is sort of off topic, but I remember you gave me a lot of helpful advice when I first started dating my boyfriend and was concerned that he was too ardent too fast. Do you think there might be some relation between that and what he's doing now?

 

I guess I'm trying to figure out if there were red flags that I missed/ignored, aside from the obvious fact that he's young and inexperienced which you can't hold against someone since everyone is at some point. At this point I'm having a hard time believing I'll ever be able to trust someone again, and I feel like that will only happen if I feel confident that I've really improved my people-picking skills. I know there are no guarantees, but given the terrible luck I've had with all of my boyfriends, something in my people detector is wrong.

 

I have this combination of real distrust of most people and blind trust of people who give me any sort of affection. Like it's remarkable to think about now, but I felt that I trusted my terrible ex almost every time he took me back and proclaimed his love for me again.

 

Right now I feel as though my faith in humanity is completely shattered. I do this thing where I have negative first impressions of a lot of people, and then later I get to know them a bit better and decide I was being unfair and to give them the benefit of the doubt...and then...almost on cue...they screw me over and my first impression is entirely confirmed. That's what happened with his brother. Just recently I was thinking he's actually a pretty nice, decent person and I misjudged him. Because I'm right time and time again about this, I really trust my gut when it comes to people, when it tells me that somebody isn't well-intentioned. So if I consider that there's a huge portion of humanity that appears negative to me upon first impression, and my accuracy rate is really high, and then you look at those left over, and even people I thought were good from the outset betrayed me...what's left?

 

There are only two people in this world that I can say with absolute certainty are good: my first boyfriend and my mother. And I'm not saying they're saints, just very decent individuals who are truly altruistic. Of course there are more good people than that, but from the pool of people I've been close to those are the only two who have proven themselves as good individuals. That's a small fraction of the people I've been close to. What does this say about people? Will most betray you if push comes to shove?

[shadowplay]

Ha, I'm going to reveal this tidbit because a good laugh sort of cuts through some of the pain.

 

He really wanted me to take him up the ass, and kept trying to convince me to buy a strap on so I could totally "possess" him and have complete "control" over him. And he also liked to be spanked.

[alphamale]

He really wanted me to take him up the ass, and kept trying to convince me to buy a strap on so I could totally "possess" him and have complete "control" over him. And he also liked to be spanked.

[Star Gazer]

This is sort of off topic, but I remember you gave me a lot of helpful advice when I first started dating my boyfriend and was concerned that he was too ardent too fast. Do you think there might be some relation between that and what he's doing now?

 

Absolutely. He's a blowtorch. On SUPER FAST and HOT, and suddenly - nothing. In the future you have to keep in mind that almost anything that takes off like a rocket grenade is sure as hell going to come crashing down like one.

 

I guess I'm trying to figure out if there were red flags that I missed/ignored, aside from the obvious fact that he's young and inexperienced which you can't hold against someone since everyone is at some point.

 

But you're 26, right? I think that's really too old to be dating someone who has literally NO relationship experience whatsoever. You need someone who knows how to handle a real-life, breathing, fallible human being. Couple his immaturity with his blow-torching, and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

The only misstep you made here, Shadow, was not take it slowly...and that effort would have only been to protect yourself to see what you were getting yourself into. There wasn't anything you did "wrong" within the relationship itself.

 

You had faith and hope and belief in love. That in and of itself is a beautiful thing. If this relationship taught you anything, it's that despite everything you've experienced thus far, you can and will love and be loved again.

 

And that won't be the last time either.

 

I have this combination of real distrust of most people and blind trust of people who give me any sort of affection.

 

I can totally relate. Is there not a lot of affection in your family?

[Star Gazer]

He really wanted me to take him up the ass, and kept trying to convince me to buy a strap on so I could totally "possess" him and have complete "control" over him. And he also liked to be spanked.

 

That's so awesome!

 

But damnit, I wish you had shared THIS earlier! Again, we can't help without full disclosure... this tells us SO much.

 

This guy wanted to be dominated by a strong, confident, almost raging b*tch of a woman, Shadow. Any sign of weakness in a woman - however NORMAL - is unattractive to him. You're sensitive, and wore your heart on your sleeve with this guy.

[melodymatters]

Ha, I'm going to reveal this tidbit because a good laugh sort of cuts through some of the pain.

 

He really wanted me to take him up the ass, and kept trying to convince me to buy a strap on so I could totally "possess" him and have complete "control" over him. And he also liked to be spanked.

 

Good for you sugar !

 

This is a...cough..man who needs to be dominated : either by you or his family.

 

I'd say let them win this one...

[Star Gazer]

I'd say let them win this one...

 

You mean let him have his way right? By letting Shadow give it to him up the ARSE?

 

Shadow, go buy a version of Ron Jeremy and give it to him until he bleeds.

[shadowplay]

That's so awesome!

 

But damnit, I wish you had shared THIS earlier! Again, we can't help without full disclosure... this tells us SO much.

 

This guy wanted to be dominated by a strong, confident, almost raging b*tch of a woman, Shadow. Any sign of weakness in a woman - however NORMAL - is unattractive to him. You're sensitive, and wore your heart on your sleeve with this guy.

 

Yeah, I guess I should have, but I was honestly pretty embarrassed that he was into that stuff.

 

Your theory makes sense, but I'm not sure if it's true...and I kind of wish it were. He didn't seem to have a detectable type, but I noticed he was really off-put by women he considered bitchy, really loud or obnoxious. Not just that but once I was mildly drunk (which I almost never am), and this made me considerably more outgoing and confident but not to the point of being out of control. He didn't respond well.

 

I do agree that he wanted to be totally dominated and controlled in some respects, though, because he felt weak inside.

[shadowplay]

You mean let him have his way right? By letting Shadow give it to him up the ARSE?

 

Shadow, go buy a version of Ron Jeremy and give it to him until he bleeds.

 

Haha...

 

I took melody's comment as letting his whole family take him up the ass. Quite a visual.

[melodymatters]

Shadow,

 

I had a fellow in his FORTIES, who put his famly and their (ignorant, white trash opinions) above his or my best interests.

 

The irony ? ( actually one of the many in this situation) His TWIN, who was so lonely and bored and resentful is now getting married and wants to sell the family business and property out from under him.

 

His loyalty to " family" is being duly rewarded.

 

It's one thing to put your kids first, but if I ever even SMELL a grown up man putting his nuclear family of origin above a possible future for himself ( and therefore me) I will promptly vomit !!!

 

This situation was NOT going to go away, I remember your threads about how ALL holidays were required to be spent at his families house, all the time, forever.

 

Now, he WILL come back, and what you do then is up to you, but in the meantime hold on to your dignity. You shouldn't be begging, you should be SCORNFUL and angry at the little tittie sucking child who needs mama and papa and bro to tell him how to live his life !

 

This too shall pass and you WILL have the last laugh !

[Hot Carl]

Ha, I'm going to reveal this tidbit because a good laugh sort of cuts through some of the pain.

 

He really wanted me to take him up the ass, and kept trying to convince me to buy a strap on so I could totally "possess" him and have complete "control" over him. And he also liked to be spanked.

 

Isn't that normal?

[shadowplay]

Shadow,

 

I had a fellow in his FORTIES, who put his famly and their (ignorant, white trash opinions) above his or my best interests.

 

The irony ? ( actually one of the many in this situation) His TWIN, who was so lonely and bored and resentful is now getting married and wants to sell the family business and property out from under him.

 

His loyalty to " family" is being duly rewarded.

 

It's one thing to put your kids first, but if I ever even SMELL a grown up man putting his nuclear family of origin above a possible future for himself ( and therefore me) I will promptly vomit !!!

 

This situation was NOT going to go away, I remember your threads about how ALL holidays were required to be spent at his families house, all the time, forever.

 

Now, he WILL come back, and what you do then is up to you, but in the meantime hold on to your dignity. You shouldn't be begging, you should be SCORNFUL and angry at the little tittie sucking child who needs mama and papa and bro to tell him how to live his life !

 

This too shall pass and you WILL have the last laugh !

 

Thanks, MM. I really admire your strength considering all the shiat you've been through.

 

In terms of him coming back, though, I feel like he'll totally swallow his rationalizations and his family will further solidify his resolve. I can't imagine him going back on that. He even said to me that he knows himself, and when he has a feeling like he does there's no going back.

[Kamille]

Why is it that I feel now like it's me and not him? Somehow after talking to him I felt that I am a totally messed up person and his treatment and response was justified. I can't seem to shake that feeling now.

 

I only got this far in the thread, so sorry if this is redundant or if you're way past this.

 

You felt like it was you and not him because, in that conversation, you were still hoping to change his mind. You were negotiating, and that meant putting yourself in a vulnerable position. He had the strong hand: he had nothing to lose.

 

He was in a position where it was easy to dismiss what you were saying. In the meantime, you were trying to reach a common ground and that involved rationalizing his actions and trying to understand his points. Instead of calling him out on all the **** that was going on and that he was telling you, you were hoping to change his mind.

 

In my dream scenario, the moment he handed you the phone and said "talk to my dad", you would have got up and walked away with a look of dismay and disgust.

[Pink Cupcakes]

I think he might be gay. Sorry.

[SadandConfusedWA]

I am so sorry shadow, I can feel your pain through this thread.

 

I am truly puzzled by what happened. I have followed all your threads on this guy and nothing adds up. I also know how intuitive you are and if you couldn't sense that anything was off until the 2 days ago - then noone could. This means that this guy was either

 

i) perfect at prentending making him basically a sociopath or

 

ii) his feelings truly switched off in a day which makes him.. well very F ed up indeed.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that his family played a very heavy hand in this but even taking that into account, things are still not making sense.

[Kamille]

He sounded like he was genuinely going to try and told me he would be open to it happening, but he said it's not going to work at all unless we do it this way because we would just have to totally start over and there would have to be zero pressure.

:sick:

 

argh just reread this bit.

 

Shadow, this is a bad idea because he's already putting conditions on everything. This attempts at a reconciliation would be him totally in control, feeling no pressure, with you left totally vulnerable, feeling the pressure to prove to him you two should be in a relationship.

 

And, SP, remember how long it took you to break up with your ex? You would only be doing the same thing by hanging on to these crumbs with hope.

Here's your chance to stand up for yourself: say Enough, I won't take bs, and walk away.

_____________________________________________________________

 

Shadow, I think the idea of focusing on your people picker is great.

 

I had to learn to do that and it helped me a lot. Where it helped me the most is that it taught that there is one reliable person who will always have my best interest at heart: ME.

 

As I learned (and continue to learn) to trust myself and my judgement, it became easier for me to draw boundaries with partners. I also stopped relying on them to dispel insecurities.

 

I think your mistrust of people makes you vulnerable to fast-burning passions. Right now, you likely require an intense commitment and passion upfront from anyone you’ll open your heart to. In the relationship with S, for instance, the commitment wasn’t built over a long period of time. You two fell madly in love really fast… When really, there was no real trust and commitment to rely on. Just the illusion of security.

 

Basically, what I’m trying to say is that learning to trust your own judgement will definitely help you to stop needing a fast intense commitment. From now on, focus on providing your own balance at the beginning of relationships. That way the rhythm will be less intense and the trust will be real, earned trust.

[Kamille]

Question: does he know you post on LS? I'm a bit surprised at the angle he took for the conversation this afternoon. In particular that it wasn't his family's decision but his own.

[Mattock5656]

Don't know if this is much help or that you like trance music but the lyrics of song go so well with what your going through.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU3-Ea1EA4s

 

Biggest thing Shadowplay its a "Big Sky" out there and there are so many options. Don't let this is guy take you down...Breathe....enjoy the infinite nature of the universe and ride forward.

[sweetjasmine]

Before I get to the rest, I just want to say that during our conversation he texted his dad and his brother. Then, when his dad called him back, he gave the phone to me and said, "talk to my dad." I refused, and told him he was being totally inappropriate and to leave them out of it. What do you guys make of that? It was so weird. Then his brother called him and S told his brother to come to the house because I was over. Meanwhile his dad kept buzzing him. His brother came by and yelled at S that their dad was trying to call him and to call the dad. His brother kept loudly walking by S's room during the conversation (S's room was wide open). At another point he yelled to S that he was invited to dinner that night with the brother, the brother's girlfriend and all of the roommates. This seemed like a jab at me because in the past I've always gone to those things, and I obviously wasn't invited.

 

OMG.

 

Wow. Just wow. That is unbelievable and absolutely and horrifyingly cruel.

 

Holy s-, talk about lack of boundaries. Now, I'm close to my family and was also "raised that way", so I kind of get where he's coming from to some extent. My parents hating the people my brothers and I bring home has always been an issue in our family. BUT. As I got older, I started pushing back and asserting my right to make my own decisions, and right now, I refuse to let their guilt trips and pressure destroy my relationship. If I'm happy and not dating a serial killer, it's none of their business to butt in and tell me what to do with my life.

 

Your S has absolutely no spine if he's willing to let his family manipulate him like that.

 

Telling you to talk to his dad and texting dad and his brother? SERIOUSLY? The relationship is between you and S, and no one else should be butting in. If he can't understand how that's totally out there and unhealthy, then you're better off without him. If he's 22 and still hasn't begun to grow a spine and act like an individual, an adult, then he's not going to start any time soon and this will always, always be an issue.

 

OK, that makes sense. It's good to know, because after talking to him, he almost convinced me that he was being reasonable in letting his family dictate who he was with. He kept saying "that's just the way I was raised," as if nothing about the way one was raised could possibly be wrong or questioned.

 

ARRRRGGGHH.

 

It is definitely not reasonable. Letting your family control your life isn't a healthy dynamic and it doesn't allow you to have healthy relationships of your own. That "it's just the way I was raised" cop-out is so infuriating and just allows him to totally dismiss the actual issues and avoid taking responsibility for his own actions (seeing a pattern yet?).

 

This guy suddenly turned on you and started treating you like garbage, and his family has either been enabling the behavior or manipulating him into it. And he doesn't have the strength to tell them "no" and would rather decide to be CRUEL to you than upset his parents or brother. That's so ridiculous.

 

Please, run and forget about him, sweetie. You don't deserve to be treated that way.

 

It's something about me that sucks away happiness from people. I mean if he's visibly less happy or not doing as well in school, I'm the most likely culprit. I'm really struggling to not believe that.

 

No, no, no, a thousand times no - it's not you. Of course he's going to shift the blame onto you - he's incapable of taking responsibility for his actions like an adult. This guy is still a child.

 

I'm so sorry you're hurting like this. He's a spineless jerk, and the whole family thing is just twisting the knife the other way. You sound like a very caring person and you really do deserve so much better than what you're getting now. *hugs*

[Pink Cupcakes]

I still am totally getting a gay vibe from this guy.

[shadowplay]

I was reflecting on all this last night, and it dawned on me that I really, really didn't know him before. I used to think he was very straightforward, but I now realize he's much more complex/conflicted than I originally assumed (and not in a good way) . I'm really surprised at myself for being blindsided, since I'm usually so good at picking up "off" personality traits, but all I can say is he's extremely repressed and disguises his weaknesses very well, even to himself. If there was one thing about him that seemed off, it was that he was almost too perfect and too good to be true. As my father pointed out, he was very hard to read in that he had almost no detectable flaws or limits, and everyone does. He was too eager to please. My mother (a psychologist) also picked up on him being repressed when they first met.

 

I'm just now putting the pieces together, but here's what I've come to so far. As others have said he's weak, but I'd take it further. I think he has a serious identity problem. I'm remembering all these things now that seemed innocuous at the time, but suddenly fit together. He's told me many times that his brain is "jumbled," "doesn't work," and he often doesn't know what he's thinking. One of the first things he always mentioned that he loved about me is that I'm able to articulate my thoughts so well, and, he claimed, his thoughts as well. It's not that I ever tried to speak for him, but apparently I would voice my own observations on the world that would make sense to him or would jive with him and somehow, he felt, clear up the confusion in his brain.

 

He kept saying I improved his life so much because I made his "brain work better." In fact, he would often tell me he didn't know what he was thinking, and then turn to me and say "do you know?" I never quite got that until now. I realize that all this jumble and confusion is that he didn't have a clear identity and he was so removed from who he was and what he wanted. He desired somebody with more strength to come in and fill in who he was. One thing I will say about myself is I've always had a very strong identity. It seemed that he picked up on that and wanted to absorb some of it. This also explains his frequent desire to have me take control of and possess him, both in and out of the bedroom. It explains why he continually told me he needed me so much, that he'd be totally devastated if he lost me and wouldn't be able to go on, etc.

 

I think it's the same thing with his family. Before I came along, he totally relied on them to fill in who he was. And I'm sure the way he was raised, where he could never assert his own needs, was partly responsible for turning him into this weak creature. He was attached to his family in a sick way, which explains why his attachment to me was so immediate and extreme. Most people's identities become separate from their families as they mature from children into adolescents, but apparently that never happened with him.

 

He also viewed me as somebody who could finally fulfill his needs, which had never been met or expressed. I wonder if at the first sign of weakness in me, he freaked, because he was so dependent on me to give him what he needed.

 

Also, there was an internal conflict where he felt he couldn't meet the needs of both his family and me. I'm sure he was used to thinking of his family in the way he did me, in that he was always worrying about their needs and suppressing his. In reality, I demanded very little from him, but I think he just naturally slipped into this mode because he associated love with totally accommodating to the other person's needs. His family probably sent him the message that their love for him was dependent on him behaving like that. Then he totally transferred this needs preoccupation over to me, but he started to realize that he couldn't meet the needs of both his family and me, mostly because his family demands so very much from him.

 

I think at some point he chose to put me ahead of them, and then when I showed weakness and unreliability he freaked because he realized that I couldn't totally provide what he needed...and he felt he needed a lot because of his inner weakness. So he reflexively flipped back to putting his family above all else, and letting them think for him.

 

I'm reevaluating everything. Maybe that look inside his eyes that I loved so much, that I interpreted as some deep, soulful connection between us, was actually a look of weakness and submission...that he was totally handing himself over to me, but not in a healthy way. Unfortunately I'm somebody who loves to take care of guys I perceive as vulnerable, like it really gets me deep down in my heart, but I didn't realize how his vulnerability could suddenly turn on me.

 

Another random thing. He had a habit of being totally devoted to something for awhile and then letting it go. Like he was originally a music major and did that intensively for a year or two, and then just suddenly gave it up and switched to something totally different when he felt it became too much work. Even the thing with his hair might fit into that, as funny as that is to think about. He was so attached to his hair, it was such an important piece of his personality, it was almost weird, but then when he cut it he instantly totally detached. He said it was one of the best decisions he had ever made, he had no regrets, etc. I just find that a bit odd that he'd be so attached and then not miss it at all.

 

Anyway, this is just my working theory. I feel pretty confident in my analysis until I get to what he did in the end...something about it still doesn't make total sense to me. I'm really hoping this will help me detach, but my emotions haven't caught up with my head. I still love him. It takes forever for this stuff to sink in on a deep level, and I'm worried it never will because I love him so much. Like it took long enough with my ex who was so obviously fcked up.

 

Part of the problem is I just have a weakness for vulnerable guys, and whenever I detect vulnerability I immediately want to hold and love them. Perhaps this is my own desire to feel wanted and needed? I don't know.

[shadowplay]

And despite everything I wrote earlier, it still doesn't make sense to me, that he would suddenly throw away everything we had given how much he loved me. I keep thinking of how often he told me that he couldn't live his life without me and if he ever lost me how it would take him a few years to get over it, and how he started sobbing once when he thought about losing me (I saw it). It's just...weird.

[shadowplay]

I feel sick.

[melodymatters]

I feel sick.

 

 

I understand, t's very much like a death.

 

One day, there you are, living and lovng another person, and the next day.....they are GONE !!!

 

 

The shock is what f*cks with our head so badly. And again like a death, there is guilt : did we do something wrong ? If this or that other thing had or hadn't happened would everything be ok right now ?

 

What you are feeling is one of the worst feelings in the world. All you can do is try to live through it. On the widow boards the first few months are just getting each other through the shock and disbelief and incredible pain.

 

We just tell each other to breathe, to take one minute at a time, and to hang on because the pain will lessen in time.

 

{hugs}

[Kamille]

I know you think that if only you could understand what happened you would feel better, but you will never find a satisfactory explanation.

 

Nor can we.

 

As much as I think his actions were very immature, they're all pretty normal actions for a 22 year old.

 

He thought he was madly in love and suddenly one day, woke up, and was tired of it all.

 

He likely meant every loving word he said when he was saying them but Shadow... Telling you he couldn't live without you? Red flag. Either speaks to him being co-dependent or him still seeing love in idealized terms.

 

What you need to work on is why him telling you he couldn't live without you made you feel loved. What was it about hearing that that made you feel like "here's a man I can build a relationship with"?

 

(There's also a huge difference, IMO, between I can't live without you and I want you in my life).

 

Because I'll tell you, I would run (and have) run for the hills if someone said something like that too early (or even at any point) in the relationship. Trust is build over time and my ability to trust someone is grounded on my perception that we will be able and capable to build a healthy relationship together. "Can't live without you" puts way too much pressure on the relationship. It stiffles it. There's no room for growth, misunderstandings and communication, just the necessity that you always infallibly be exactly the person "he can't live without".

 

I'll conclude by repeating the question above, because I think it is what you can actually control right now and key to helping you understand yourself and grow:

 

What was it about hearing that that made you feel like "here's a man I can build a relationship with"? Did it reassure you? Make you feel loved? Do you need co-depency to allow yourself to trust someone in a relationship? And do you see how that can lead you to choose the partners you have?