Need advice badly... (Long)

[Meiso]

First of all let me apologize. This is a really long post. I did my best to keep it to the point, but I didn’t want to leave out any points. I think I’ve done my best to keep to present both sides of this story. Thanks in advance to all that read through this and offer me their advice.

 

About a year and a half ago a new girl got hired at work. I thought she was cute and shy, but didn’t really notice her much. I was in one of those points in my life where I was pretty much caught up in my own thing and not worried about romancing any special ladies. To be honest I was flirting with another girl at work at the time, and really couldn’t be bothered with this new girl we’ll call Tanya. Time went on and things were great. The months rolled by and Tanya started to come out of her shell. I was eventually approached by a few female co-workers who said that I should ask Tanya out. I was surprised to hear this and asked them why. They explained it was painfully obvious she had a thing for me. I’ll be the first to admit I can be very clueless with signals… But the more I thought about it I started to realize that perhaps they were right. She was a fairly outgoing girl with her friends, but the co-workers said it was clear she treated me differently than others. She was always walking up to me out of the blue, hugging me, touching me and play fighting. At the time I was NOT attracted to her at all. That in consideration, I had also figured it wasn’t worth pursuing since we worked together and I didn’t want to make things awkward in the workplace. So I began actively resisting the urging of my friends to “hook up” with her. However, I figured I could be her friend since there was no attraction there. She eventually asked me to a movie and I went. That started the ball rolling. I found that we were able to spend time away from our social group and be happy with each other’s company. We started messaging each other on the computer once in awhile, and occasionally we would call each other on the phone to catch up things. Many nights after work we’d go out clubbing with the staff and we got to know each other better. The first time I started to think that maybe she did have feelings for me in some capacity beyond co-worker was when I had mentioned to her that I might go overseas with the military. She almost came to tears, and told me not to or she would start to cry. I think she was serious. Anyway… Time rolled on and something odd started to happen. The girl that I wasn’t attracted to started to become VERY beautiful to me. The more we spent time together, the more I wanted to be with her. So not only was she this great friend to start with, she became very attractive to me and I wanted to be closer to her in romantic kind of way. I was cautious though. I learned she had turbulent teenage years growing up in a small town. She had regularly abused alcohol, pot, mushrooms and ecstasy. She had toned most of the drugs down since then. She had also said she had a very pessimistic view of men and was a feminist. She had walked in on her long term boyfriend sleeping with her best friend. Since then she had remained single and very untrusting.

 

Eventually I felt that maybe there was something between us after all and I’d be wise not to let it get away. I was dumb about it though. Tanya and I were online one night chatting on the IM. I basically said I have feelings for you but you don’t need to say anything because I already know you don’t. She didn’t. She asked if things were going to change between us and I said no. Afterwards I was left feeling really dumb and confused. While Tanya was an outgoing and friendly girl, she couldn’t really be classified a flirt by people who saw her. It was the opinion of me and those around us regularly that she did like me in a different kind of way. Nevertheless, she told me she didn’t feel the same way. I respected her words for what they were and stopped trying to analyze everything. In her explanation she said that she had thought about it, but it was just be weird, and she wouldn’t want to risk the friendship that we had. My instincts told me she had been more than “friendly” in the past, and a part of me went off inside that said FORGET her. I stopped calling her for two weeks. While I saw her at work and did talk to her for the purposes of getting the job done, she was very hurt and upset. She started saying that apparently I never really cared about her and was only interested in sex. The more I thought about it I realized that’s exactly how it looked. I had taken the time to sort my feelings out, and felt ready to approach the friendship with a clear head. After writing her a letter explaining what had been going on, she accepted. For most people this would have been the last page of the drama. In my case this is where it was just beginning. It was only after this point that we really started spending serious time together. While I called her occasionally, she started to call me more often. She had an open invitation to call me, and would often do so late at night between 10PM and 2AM. We started talking a lot more online AND on the phone. Some of our phone calls lasted three and four hours. Maybe I’m wrong, but this kind of confused me. I thought those late night long phone calls were the kinds of things boyfriends and girlfriends did. We also started spending more time alone outside of work. We’d go out to dinner and movies and had a great time all together. It’s kind of pathetic to say, but whenever we went out for drinks she was much more open with me. Who isn’t though I guess? She would touch me like she used to, play around, compliment on things about me that were sexy, and pull my chair closer to hers so our legs were touching. Also, it was around this time that she started accusing me of having secret girlfriends that I didn’t tell her about. I was confused. She explained that she thought I was seeing girls that I didn’t want to tell her about. Maybe I’m wrong but I took this as a sign of insecurity and interest on her part. If she was just my friend I can see why she might want to know what’s going in my life, but I couldn’t see why she would accuse me of things. There was even a night when she had drove me home from a night out, and I commented that it was odd a light was on in my house. She immediately started asking who the girl was waiting for me, and whether she was the secret girlfriend. I explained she was making something out of nothing, and she shouldn’t even care. She then said she was just kidding. I felt that was a really unfair thing to say as in my mind it made me think she was getting jealous over me. The entire time I never asked her about any guys she may have been seeing. I figured it was her business. She volunteered it though, saying she was single and not seeing anyone. Things kind of continued on. They were awkward on my part but she apparently felt very happy with what she getting out of the friendship. I was a good friend to her. Always paying for nights out, dinners, and would occasionally buy her gifts. This wasn’t just because I like her, I have many good female friends who I don’t want and I do the same things for them. I was ALWAYS available… Putting things off, taking her calls late at night and talking as long as she wanted. I was never the one to end the conversations or nights out. The weeks went on, and people would constantly approach us in public saying we were a cute couple. Then, one night after drinking we were eating some Taco Bell in her car late at night. She started to feed me nachos with her hand. To top it off she put some hot food between my legs and said “Here have something hot for between your legs”. I was in shock. I didn’t know what to say… Perhaps I’m the most clueless person in the world but I took that as a come on, but I let it go.

 

This went on for awhile and I started thinking that maybe her feelings had changed now that she had got to know me more. She was always saying how I really made her remember that not all guys are bad. She had been out of town and came over to my place at 1 or so in the morning. She was telling me how she missed me and whatnot. The next day we were on the phone and I asked her if her feelings had changed given the way she had been acting in the past while. She explained no things were just the same. She could never see her feelings changing. She actually became a bit angry, saying that she was just friendly. She said that I was no different than any of her other guy friends, and that it felt like she could never win with me because no matter what she did I would think she was having feelings for me. I reminded her of all the behavior that confused me, and she denied any of it was flirting, and even claimed she didn’t remember doing half the things. Once again I took her words and respected them. We talked about things, and despite feeling a little lead on I still considered her one of my best friends and said things didn’t have to change. We ended up going out the next night together and stayed out until 3 or so in the morning. It was sort of nice.

 

In keeping with the pattern, we started hanging out more after this point. She would call late and night and we talked for hours. Full credit to her, she backed off quite a bit with the physical touching and the accusations of having a secret girlfriend. However any time I’d back off a bit, see other girls and not be so available to her she would say things like “Oh so you’re too cool for me now or something?” and that sort of thing. We did have some weird conversations though. She would ask me what kind of boyfriend I am… Whether I like to touch and be touched, how many people I’ve slept with, and how I felt about casual sex. We even had a talk about what things would be like if either of us started to date. We both acknowledged that we’d still be friends, but it would be impossible to be the same kind of friends because a significant other would take priority over the friend eventually in the end. Time went on and I saw other people away from her. We still talked all the time, and occasionally got together alone to do our normal hang out thing. Maybe it was me, maybe it was her… But things still remained confusing. She would act odd sometimes and disappear, and of course me being the predictable nice guy would call. She’d pick up the phone and say things like “Oh well maybe I did that because I knew you would call me”. The friend’s that had originally told me to pursue her were changing their tunes now. Everyone who had a chance to view our friendship from the outside start to form the opinion she was a girl with major issues, and for whatever reasons liked to keep me chasing after her. More or less she was being labeled people were started to look at her as a tease. The same people apologized to me for ever telling me to pursue her. It was now clearly a question of keep the friendship but change the rules myself, or drop her completely. I approached her on this to see what she thought about being friends but not so close. She reminded me ONCE again I was just a friend (Fine I knew that already) but she couldn’t picture us not being close. She said that what we had was unique and the fact that she had always been willing to hear me out should show me that she cares. What???? Hear me out? It came across as if I was the one being difficult. She explained she still wasn’t seeing anyone (I didn’t ask), and the thought of not having me in her life was sad, but in the end the choice was up to me.

 

That’s the point I really lost my energy. I talked to her if she called, but I never called her or made plans with her. I still thought the world of her but I lost the enthusiasm. I really started to get the impression she was taking my efforts at friendship for granted. There were nights out after work at the clubs were she’d let me buy her a drink, only to take off to the other side of the room to talk to another guy. Fair enough do what you want. But it’s when I started walking out while she was gone that she got odd. She would call me the next day asking why I left and that she was looking for me. I told her I wasn’t mad, but if she wanted to leave to do her own thing I should be allowed to do my own thing. After that I really stopped trying so hard. I wouldn’t buy her drinks like I used to. I started being the guy I was when we first met – The kind of guy caught up in my own world. The less I paid attention it seemed the more she tried to talk to me and make plans to be together alone with me. The bitterness grew the more I realized how our dynamics worked. Her birthday came around and it seemed like an ideal time to put the past behind me, treat her like gold, and make a quiet exit out the back door if you will, not to come back. The night went very well. She had called me like 5 times that night making sure I was coming out to celebrate with her. And the end of the night I got the longest tightest hug from her ever. Whatever. It was a nice memory to have and at this point I started backing off a lot more. I guess the only weakness I had was the phone calls. I always answered for her and always indulged in the 2 and 3 hour chats.

 

My birthday eventually rolled around and she started calling more. She wanted to get together with me. I was pretty resistant to it, but she kept pushing. She even showed up at the bar I was at without having me telling her. She ended up staying with me the entire night even after everyone else had left. We talked and she took me home. The next day she was asking for pictures of me. A few weeks later I lost the job I shared with her. She said she was going to quit since I lost the job. I told her not to. Luckily I got a new job right around the same time. It was great. It was a huge moral boost and offered me some prestige that I didn’t have before. No longer did we have the guaranteed time together each week. I figured it would be for the best because I could start moving on easier now that I didn’t have to see her. Time rolled on and she kept calling me. The thing that blew my mind was there were three instances where she asked me if I wanted to go out with her. Each time she cancelled on me for being sick or for family reasons, or so she said. I finally snapped in a good way. I think that for so long I had been a b*tch. I think in some ways she thought so too… At least she described me as being my old bosses b*tch. Well… For months she had some of my belongings at her house. She never bothered to return them. My other female friends told me that she never returned them was so she would have an excuse to see me if things cooled off. She called after the 3rd time she stood me up, and the only thing I said was that I wanted my things bad. She clued in quick I was mad. I explained why and she had no excuses and apologized telling me how important I was to her, and hopefully we could work through things. She said we had something that she never had in a relationship, the ability to talk through problems consistently and work them out. I told her I was tired of this crap. First it was what I saw as mixed signals, and she only wanted to be friends. I told her fine… I was YOUR friend and it was hard as hell, but I cared enough about you as a person to do it, but in the end this is how I get treated? I told her she got all the benefits of a loving boyfriend with me without ever having to make an investment. She had nothing to say to that. Out of interest she did remember for the first time how she put the food between my legs. She said she was just kidding around and she’s like that with all her friends. WHAT???? I said it didn’t matter anymore because I really didn’t care. She told me obviously I do. I told her no not really I was tired of trying to figure her out. She changed her tune from before. I reminded her she said I was no different than any of her guy friends, and she felt like she could never win with me. She said no no no you ARE different than my other guy friends. We do the same things when we hang out, but I spend way more of my time with you and talk to you more than even my best girlfriends. As far as never being able to win with me, she said the friendship has been “weird” that way, but a good weird. Yap yap yap. I just wanted my things back. I got drunk that night and she came over. She FORGOT my things. She eventually came back a few days later and returned all the items but one. All my friends said she did this on purpose since it was insurance or whatever. She kept saying that actions speak louder than words and she was going to make it up to me. She then said something that really came across as a mixed signal. She was going to a resort town 7 hours away for the holidays. She said if I “happened” to be up there at the same time we could get together and party. Oh… So if I just happen to be 7 hours away up there huh? It’d be one thing if she asked me… but this came across as really odd. I told her I was still mad and she disappeared off the radar for the holidays.

 

After the holidays I got a call from her. She told me how her trip to the resort went. Without me asking she was telling me how much it bugged her because her trip mates were checking out guys and she wasn’t interested in looking for guys. Like I needed to hear that? I was dumb. I let the phone call go on for a long time and we ended up talking for about 2 hours. She said if she didn’t have to work on the weekend she would call me and see what’s up. Fair enough. After the call I realized I forgot how mad I was and it’d probably be best that I didn’t bother. Well the weekend came around and I bumped into her. When she saw me in person she made a little bit of convo commenting on how I looked good and what not, and she went home early. I came to the conclusion that going to the old stomping grounds was probably a not so hot idea as I might bump into her. Through a common friend I heard that the next night she was out with another guy. That’s fine… But this friend told me she thinks he is the ex-bf or something, and that they may have been on a date. However, the description I got was of a guy who was just a friend and former room mate of hers, nothing more. Either way it doesn’t really matter I guess… She made it sound like she wanted to spend time together on the weekend so we could finish our talk, but she was with another guy. He ended up leaving and she went home.

 

She tried messaging me a few nights ago online but I just turned the IM off. For all she knew I was just going to bed for the night. I was tired and didn’t really want to talk to her being angry and a bit jealous. About 10 minutes later the phone started to ring. I saw the call display and it was Tanya. I let the machine pick it up. That was the first time I’ve done that to her in the entire year and a half I’ve known her… So it was a pretty big deal although it may not sound like it. She left a message in sulky voice saying “I know you’re home… But I guess you’re mad at me for something else I don’t know I did”… She continued on like that and asked me to call her. Otherwise she’d just assume I was angry and not interested in talking to her.

 

So that’s where we are. It feels good to stand up for myself. For the longest time I felt so weak for this girl. I feel more like myself now that I’m taking a stand. The good guy side of me worries that I’m being a prick for resorting to this. I just don’t know what else to do. We keep going through the same cycle all the time where I approach, she backs off. I back off and she starts calling again. I think I invested too much emotionally in her and I care way too much. I want to be her friend, but I’m not sure I can be after getting treated like crap for the past while. On the other hand she’s had her moments were she’s been golden to me. I’m not sure if I’d be comfortable watching her date another guy either. I can be honest about that. I guess the biggest thing is not who she’s with… She’s told me she’s not interested. My biggest fear is that I’ve imagined all the signals. If I have, then I’m a crappy friend for avoiding her. On the other hand, if it’s true she’s been inconsistent in her behavior with me I can take comfort in knowing that and continue on this path. I want to be good to her… But it’s just killing me with the ups and downs. The longer I’m away from her the more ease I feel in my heart. All of my friends and those around us feel I got the bad end of the deal in this. Tanya knows people think this too, and said all she really cares about is the opinion I have about her. Nobody else matters to her, or so she said. So here I am. I know she’s upset. I’m upset. Does it sound like I was being unreasonable thinking I was getting signals? Should I continue down this path? Am I better not talking to her? Should I explain to her why, or does she even deserve the explanation at this point? After all, I told her several weeks ago I wanted to have one last face to face and she disappeared for almost two weeks (some suggested this was her plan in hopes that I’d calm down and start to miss her). Does it sound like maybe she does have some kind of non friendship feelings for me? Is she just a headcase or too afraid of her feelings? What can I expect if I continue to avoid her?

 

Any advice and suggestions would be appreciated. This is very important to me. Thank you very much to all who have read this.

[Reckless]

Okay, first of all I read it! I read all the way through... I wouldn't usually but I have no life.

 

Right well, bottom line your friend either has no idea of the reasonable boundaries to set for 'friendships' with the opposite sex or is mixed up, issue ladened game playing commitment phobic head case. My money's on the latter.

 

Your life will be miserable with her and you are too involved emotionally to 'just be friends'. She's dying for you, absolutely desperate to have you (no you did not misread the signals) but terrified to take the leap and that screams 'head case' to me.

 

Stop contacting her, stop the 4 hour telephone conversations; if you want a headcase woman, tell her that you are looking to have a romantic/(I presume)sexual relationship with her and she should call you if she feels the same way. Explain that you find it too painful to be 'just friends' at this stage and need to distance yourself for a bit and she should stop calling you.

 

I will add that it sounds like she has had some kind of trauma in her life, maybe as a result of physical or sexual abuse (dunno, just a feeling I got..) but you are not responsible for her future, she has to take responsibility for it herself and you will be doing her a favor in forcing her to brave romantic involvement or see what she faces losing.

 

Remember love is not supposed to be that painful. Friendship is also supposed to feel pretty good. Avoid people that make you believe otherwise.

 

R.

[Meiso]

Thanks so much for the response. I've found that going online for impartial advice has helped me out a lot. It seems like everyone is telling me the same thing... Run. It's just hard for me to make good judgement sometimes when I obviously care about her and have a predisposition to trust her no matter what. Either way I'm finally making the right steps.

 

It was just really painful to see certain things that I saw as flirtation or connecting... Only to have her tell me that I imagined it all and should really learn to figure out the difference. It was a smack in the face, and until recently has made me feel like I'm the most clueless person in the world. I'm not saying she ever really wanted me, I'm just saying I prolly shouldn't beat myself for being confused, as most guys would.

 

As far as being damaged goods... It's quite highly possible. What I do know for a face is that in her teen years growing up in a small town she abused a lot of drugs and alcohol. In more recent times she's claimed to have lightened up on things and matured. I know she was in a long term relationship with a man of another race, and a lot of her friends began gossiping about her. The race thing is no issue to me, but knowing these other girl it almost came across as a misguided status symbol or something. Either way, she dated this guy for a very long time only to walk into him having sex with her best friend. Since then she's been focusing on friendships and dealing with her mistrust of men in general. Or so she told me. I know she still recreationally uses drugs. I won't pass any judgement on that but I know she's done more than a few hits of extasy.. So that might even have played a role in her emotional state.

 

I guess in the end I can say she LIKES to come across as a very fiesty tough girl. One of my good female friends and I were talking one night and she said she could totally see this girl being the kind who curls up in a ball and cries at night when the door is closed. She's always been very calm and collected in the past when I confronted her about the mixed signals... She said she cared but it almost felt like there was little emotion involved. It wasn't until recently, when I finally started standing up for myself that I caught a very small peak at another side. I actually yelled at her and called her out for standing me up and I heard her sulky quiet voice for the first time. Same thing with the message she left on my machine. She sounded very quiet... Almost half asleep and whiney if that makes any sense.

 

Ah well... I'm just curious if she's even noticing I'm not available to her anymore. I've ALWAYS been there for this year and a half. I've ALWAYS taken her calls and always let her finish them. I made this mistake of making everything on her timetable. I hate to sound bitter, but I hope she can't get this out of her head. I've been warned by mutual girl friends that this girl might end up at my door step trying to continue the drama... but who knows. I haven't answered her calls and blocked her online. It's been exactly one week since we last talked. I'll go the length... I'm just so damn curious as to what she's thinking...

 

Once again thanks!

[jmargel]

Hi Meiso,

 

Glad I read your post, becuase it sounded like the same exactly situation I was in. I'll tell you mine and tell you what I did & you then can compare.

 

I met a gorgeous woman (I'm 29 & she's 26) and we ended up going out. She told me upfront she had a bf, but then quickly started telling me about her problems with him. They've been on & off for 8 years, and he totally neglected her. 'Brandy' and me would always go out together, and do things like bf/gf do. She moved an hour away to go back to school, but I would always see her at least twice a week. She even spent time w/ me & my family on xmas eve. Needless to say 6 months from the first time we went out we started kissing and my feelings grew big time. All this time though she was still with him. She would come up to see him maybe once every two weeks. It just killed me. It got to the point that another 2 months go by & I had to let her know that I was in love with her. She was kinda shocked, but I told her not to tell me it back unless she feels the same way. Well, she didn't. About 3 months previous I was so frustrated with this situation that I met someone else. 'Michelle' & me only lasted a month due to some issues involving her, but it probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway cause of my feelings for Brandy. Brandy got upset with me, because I did tell her I slept with her. But I also told her she had no right to be mad, because she was still w/ her bf.

 

I mean Brandy & me did 'everything' together, yet we didn't have sex. We would talk about it, but I told her that I cared about her too much to have her as a f*ck buddy, or a fling. In the mean time her bf was still treating her bad.

 

One night I told her 'Look Brandy, I can't continue this. Us being this way, being so close yet you won't commit to me. I don't think I should see you again'. She first thought I was joking, but then realized how serious I was. She first got really upset saying 'You are going to give up what we have, this isn't my fault'. I then walked out, and thought about this the next two days. I came to the conclusion that I would be acting selfish if I just ran out on her. She had no one else in her life that she was close too but me. And me running out because either she wasn't ready or didn't want to pursue anything further wouldn't be right. I came back & we did the usual things together, but it hurt like hell just KNOWING this wasn't going to go any further. I lost all faith. I failed to mention I was engaged before, and she hurt me bad. So feelings of rejection, hurt, sadness really hit home again. The only person I could open upto now is shooting me down, but I was at least grateful for what I had with her. It was upto her to make the choices, and I didn't want to have to talk her into anything with me.

 

Well with that being said, one night she told me she was going out with a 'female' friend, which I didn't care. She called me up around 1am that night asking what I did. She expected me to say I just stayed home (it was a Sat. night), but I surprised her a little (told a little fib) that I went out with a female friend to a particular club & had a nice time. She didn't say much and ended the call the usual way. Two days later when I saw her, the questions began. Like 'who is she, what does she look like, etc..' I'm thinking this is kinda weird for someone who's not romantically interested in me. Over the course of the next two weeks she would continue to ask questions now & then about her.

 

Another week or so later, we went to a fair, but told me not to show any affection because we are going to her dad's first to meet up with him & then goto the fair w/ them. I never met them before, but she told me her dad & her bf were close. So I met her there at her dad's and didnt show no affection at all.. Just a simple hello & smile, and then was playing w/ his dog (im an animal lover). I got along great w/ her family as well. Her & me drove, while her dad was in his own car. During the trip there she put her head on my shoulder & said 'I wish you were my bf'. Im thinking, whoa.. All I said was 'What's stopping you? You know I want to be with you'. She didnt' say anything.

 

At the fair she was very affectionate and at one point we kissed each other romantically. I just knew something good was gonna happen. Just that feeling, you know? Anyway we met up with her dad, and she clung onto me so tight. I think both me & her dad was surprised. She stayed at my place and slept with me. No sex tho. The next morning she looked at me & told me she was in love with me! I was on cloud nine. Its been 4 1/2 months now & were VERY happy..

 

I'll continue my story.. have to leave work now.. I'll post back in another 30 mins.. Sorry!!

[Meiso]

Interesting... I'm looking forward to the rest of your story.

 

Also looking forward to your observations/advice on my situation.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write!