Why did he shut down after discussing children?

[wien7777]

I obviously am ever so daft, for I posted this in another thread and didn't see the Parenting section. My question to all of you is..

 

I'm in a serious, long-term relationship with my (wonderful) boyfriend, and we recently started discussing the topic of children and parenthood in general.

He's been doing more of the talking because of my ..tactfulness to keep the conversation focused on his ideas/opinions/wishes, etc.

It turns out that he really does want to ultimately parent, but only if I were his partner in starting a family. (We aren't really 'children people' hence my surprise when he admitted this). He talked about how pregnant women are beautiful (which I am hesitant to believe), how happy it would make him and how lovely it would be that kind of life together.

[Note: However, he repeatedly stressed that he knows that doesn't seem to what I want, but that he would still be happy sharing a life with just me.]

 

Personally, I'm very.. hesitant. Pregnancy alone changes many things, and I don't want to risk losing any physical or emotional intimacy with my partner. Essentially, the only 'pro' I can think of to the whole ordeal is just that I know he really would make an outstanding father.

 

The problem occurred when somehow, I also got wrapped up in the moment and discussions over the past week or so and (in hindsight) edged on the considerations and the conversations overall-- "how would you feel if this happened.." and even though I said "hypothetically" in about just every second sentence, I admit that I definitely didn't outright dismiss the things he said with a straightforward "I'm sorry, I don't want that", but instead somehow turned every thoughtful pro he listed into something of a con, and continued the conversation.

Today I sensed that something was bothering him while we were talking about it, and finally as I was finishing a sentence, he finished it for me by (almost sarcastically/dejectedly) saying ,.."hypothetically..". And when I asked what the matter was, he said "Forget it, it's alright.", "I get it.", and that kind of thing.

 

...Did I insult him somehow? I don't understand- I never said anything that could be interpreted as criticism for him, but yes, I didn't exactly give the impression that I thought it would all be anything but an unpleasant change.

[Trimmer]

Well a starting point, for me, is that I think I see two things that are possibly at odds here:

 

He's been doing more of the talking because of my ..tactfulness to keep the conversation focused on his ideas/opinions/wishes, etc.

OK, so you invited him to share his feelings on the subject, and it sounds like he opened up, and conditioned having kids to his feelings about you. We can talk about the wisdom of that later, but let's assume he was really sharing inner feelings about having kids.

 

I definitely didn't outright dismiss the things he said with a straightforward "I'm sorry, I don't want that", but instead somehow turned every thoughtful pro he listed into something of a con, and continued the conversation.

Ouch. So instead of hearing him out, then reciprocating and sharing your own feelings as a kind of independent thing, even if they ran counter to his, I'm wondering if this came off as you not so much sharing your feelings, but just shooting his down one by one as he brought them up.

 

Do you have any recollection that you showed empathy or understanding of his positive feelings towards kids, or were you in a kind of a mode of giving a careful counterpoint to each thing he put forward?

 

He may have ended up feeling like you didn't understand his feelings, as if you were so wrapped up in your resistance to having kids that you weren't really even hearing/understanding/empathizing with his feelings - and you did say that's what you intended to keep the focus on.

 

But I wonder if your focus ended up being not so much on hearing and understanding him, but "focusing" your scope for target practice. ( I don't mean that in a glib way, but it may be how he perceived it.)

 

In addition, all your "hypothetically's" (and maybe other things in your speech, tone, etc.) may have sent the message that you were being so super-careful, as if you had your defenses up, when in fact, he was taking a big risk and dropping his own defenses to share some deeper feelings with you.

 

...Did I insult him somehow? I don't understand- I never said anything that could be interpreted as criticism for him...

Maybe you weren't criticizing him, but you may have left him feeling like his feelings were invalidated.

 

It's a tough spot - if you feel very differently from someone else, and you're trying to have a meeting of the minds, it's a delicate maneuver for the "second person" to start talking after the first person has laid out their feelings, without making the first one feel like you are invalidating their position.

 

But there's a difference between listening, understanding, accepting, and empathizing FIRST, followed by stating your case from your own perspective, and shooting the other person's points down one by one as he makes them.

 

Not saying this is exactly what you did, but putting it out there for you as food for thought and maybe a different perspective as you go back over how things went in your talk.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Trimmer

[blind_otter]

The problem occurred when somehow, I also got wrapped up in the moment and discussions over the past week or so and (in hindsight) edged on the considerations and the conversations overall-- "how would you feel if this happened.." and even though I said "hypothetically" in about just every second sentence, I admit that I definitely didn't outright dismiss the things he said with a straightforward "I'm sorry, I don't want that", but instead somehow turned every thoughtful pro he listed into something of a con, and continued the conversation.

 

That's a bit mean, I think, to shoot down every single pro he brings up with a con of your own. When this happens to me, I usually shut down too.

 

When you say "hypothetically" too much it seems a bit weird, like you are fishing for information without being up front as to why you are fishing or what information you are looking for. I think it's good to talk about things in the abstract, but come on. You can sit and think "hypothetically" all day long, but when faced with the real situation, few of us actually do what we would have done "hypothetically" because reality is entirely different from the scenarios we create inside our minds.

 

I applaud you thinking this out so thoroughly, but understand that if you and your lover have vastly different views on your future and different levels of desire for having a child, you MUST end the relationship - regardless of how much you say "but I LOVE HIM".

 

Because this is a huge issue, and if you don't want children, you must allow your partner to fulfill their wish. otherwise, things could get ugly in a few years.

[wien7777]

Firstly, thank you all so much for your thoughtful and helpful replies- even though I could still wait a couple more years before hypothetically having children (I wouldn't really want to before 28), I can't say I've given this much thought before, and it does help to consider a variety of opinion, especially those different from my own.

 

Trimmer: "So instead of hearing him out, then reciprocating and sharing your own feelings as a kind of independent thing, even if they ran counter to his, I'm wondering if this came off as you not so much sharing your feelings, but just shooting his down one by one as he brought them up"

 

The thing is, though I see how it may have seemed as such, ..I wasn't just trying to 'shoot down' whatever he was saying just because I was that set against children. I legitimately believed that perhaps what he was saying was not a completely valid 'pro', because I could still find a 'con' for it. But regardless, yes- a fine line between outright criticism and talking out any worries/fears.

 

I just wanted him to openly and uninhibitedly discuss his opinions with me. However, I noticed that with every "con" I mentioned, he would elaborate significantly less on his next "pro", and he would be overall more hesitant to list one at all. I know no one should have to "convince" their partners of wanting to ultimately take such a huge step, but .. explaining they think it would be a positive thing; why it's something they truly want? .. Or is that moreso a luxury I would have been privy to had he gotten the sense I wanted the same thing as he does?

 

Personally, I wholly agree with what all of you said- children should not, under any circumstances, be brought into the world unless it's a decision both parents agree on, and to the same extent. That's why, during all of our little conversations about this as of late, I have tried to stress that as much as I do love him, I don't want him to feel as if I am taking anything away from him, whether that be now or however many years down the road. I love him, but I respect him just as much, and that does mean considering his right to be with someone would can make him happy in every applicable sense.

 

As for personally not wanting children.. I'm afraid I don't exactly know how to describe it. For those of you who feel differently in the regard, I applaud you, but it certainly isn't something for everyone. I don't like to think it's that I'm.. just that selfish or cold-hearted, but having a child(ren) is just a huge risk, and is daunting in about every sense of the word.

 

Hypothetically- hypothetically,hypothetically, hypothetically,... would it be nice to have children? ..It would, fine, yes. To have little tickle-fights and snuggle-sessions underneath the covers in Mom and Dad's bedroom on weekends? To make pancakes (not without a huge mess, of course) in the kitchen together, listening to some long-forgotten French singer with a velveteen voice on the Saturday morning radio show? To hold them, tell them I love them everyday, even when I'm cross and dangerously close to a nervous breakdown? To be so proud watching them tie their shoes, bring home a good mark, or just be truly happy, for even a moment? Fine, yes, it would be a nice thing, I suppose.

 

But it's.. the risk. How do you know? How do you know you'll make them happy, and safe, and that they'll love you as much as you hypothetically would? There's just.. so much bollocks in the world that it is inevitable they'll have to face sadness, sorrow, and their own unhappiness during a course of a lifetime. That's something no parent can just wish away.. but why risk that you yourself would somehow add to that unhappiness for your child?

 

If you're still reading at this point, I've already notified the Nobel Prize Committee on your behalf, don't worry. I spoke with my boyfriend again about this today, and we both came to the conclusion that it is right to be a bit strict with your child at times, but to be fair and affectionate above all. The thing is.. he said that the 'affectionate' part only is really "crucial" or important until a certain age, after which it is unnecessary for hugging or saying "I love you"s because it's to be assumed. I know that although his family is lovely and stable, that is essentially how he was brought up. There was no question that his parents loved him, but it was not openly discussed or shown.

 

He again reminded me of this just as I was going to attempt to tell him that perhaps we don't have to write off the idea of having children together after all. But that just.. I couldn't say anything after that. Simply because I can't have that, not even hypothetically. I may be reserved and not exactly fond of emotional attachment myself (hardcore Aquarius, basically), but.. in the strange, parallel universe where I do have a child, it would know I loved it every day. Every single day, regardless of what shenanigans it got into or how I felt that day. Regardless of whether it's 3 year old boy, or a 33 year old man.. I just can't see myself ever taking that approach.

 

Do I.. tell him this? How? I don't want to inadvertently insult his family or anything, and I just don't know how to explain to him the obvious benefits to always letting your child know it's loved with hugs and kisses and whatnot, regardless of it's age. He didn't have that, so how am I supposed to explain that I just.. couldn't even hypothetically consider children with someone who felt differently in that respect?

[wien7777]

Literally no one has anything to say?

[doublescorpio]

I have something to say. At first, I wasn't thinking too well of you because it was sounding like you were more concerned about the physical/emotional aspects of pregnancy (which is mostly silly) but after reading your second post I completely understand.

 

But it's.. the risk. How do you know? How do you know you'll make them happy, and safe, and that they'll love you as much as you hypothetically would? There's just.. so much bollocks in the world that it is inevitable they'll have to face sadness, sorrow, and their own unhappiness during a course of a lifetime. That's something no parent can just wish away.. but why risk that you yourself would somehow add to that unhappiness for your child?

 

 

You never know. But that is the thing... it is what every potential parent worries about. Will it be healthy? Stay healthy? Will it be abused by someone else? What happens when you are not around to protect it? These are all valid and common questions. We can't be plagued with the what ifs though- there is no point since we actually control very little and stressing over it won't help.

 

Yes, there are a lot of horrible people and things in the world. And there are many things and people that can hurt a child, and also children are capable of hurting you. But I will be honest, that is actually why I want to have a child. Because I have no doubt that for every horrible person out there, I will raise a child that will not only overcome them but defeat them. My biggest desire to have a child with my partner of 7 years is because if that child turns out to be anything like myself, my partner and our families, it will be a person that only brings light and happiness to others. Knowing that we would make wonderful parents makes me look forward to it someday. You may have doubts that you would make a good or affectionate parent, that could be a sign that you are not yet confident in your parenting abilities. It sounds not that you don't want children one day but more that you are afraid. You mentions your boyfriend would make a good father. Perhaps he knows this, which is why he seems excited about the idea.

 

I think it is important to bring these things up soon in your relationship and tell him your fears and insecurities. They are normal and he will probably be relieved to hear that you are not being shallow about the issue, but rather more insightful. The fact that he was so open about the subject in the first place is a wonderful thing, my boyfriend is still shy in talking about it because he is still at the stage where he is really enjoying the present and quite frankly a child would disrupt that! But there will come a day when we both feel that we really want it to happen then.

 

I know you hear horror stories about couple losing physical or emotional intimacy after a child, but really we often hear about the struggles and rarely about the bliss. When you think of it, having a little (or eventually big) person that you created together is as intimate as it gets, and even if a couple adopts the same rule applies. Raising a child together is pretty magnificent. I would think you would strengthen, not weaken your bond. I am sure if you just speak with him as eloquently as you write he will not be disappointed in you.

[blind_otter]

Although it is good to discuss generalities regarding having children, I think it's a bit silly to make decisions about how you will raise your kids that are set in stone at this point. You don't have any, you don't know what it's really like and the rigors involved, and the temperament of your child will direct the type of interaction and discipline you utilize.

 

Although I understand your reservations - they are not based in reality. You just don't know and you're talking in pure conjecture.

 

I have no problem with people deciding not to have children - applaud the decision and the self knowledge it takes, TBH. I don't think everyone can or SHOULD have children - even if they are intelligent and well educated.

 

TBH, also, I don't really know what the pro of having a child is. The urge and desire to procreate and take part in molding a person is not a logical one and therefore has no logical explanation. If you think realistically and pragmatically, there aren't really many reasons at all to have a child in this day and age.

 

I'm just saying. Raising a child has very little to do with logic, I'm afraid. All you have to do is spend a significant amount of time around a toddler to understand that.

There's just.. so much bollocks in the world that it is inevitable they'll have to face sadness, sorrow, and their own unhappiness during a course of a lifetime. That's something no parent can just wish away.. but why risk that you yourself would somehow add to that unhappiness for your child?

 

According to my personal philosophy, this line of thinking is just silly. I have experienced a lot of pain - physical, emotional, psychological - in my life. I won't go into details but it's been a horrorshow. And yet, I value all of those experiences. They enrich me as an individual

 

A good parent does not and NEVER SHOULD protect their child from experiencing life. A good parent, IMO, teaches self discipline and resilience. This way, you don't have to protect them from every little thing, you are aware that they will suffer - all life is suffering on some level, even attachment leads to suffering when you lose what you are attached to for whatever reason.

 

But you trust that you have given them the psychological and emotional tools to bounce back no matter how heavy the blow.

 

Also regarding affection - well as boys age, especially, they are mostly naturally less inclined to cuddle and hug and kiss parents. It's the way we socialize our children that leads to this attitude. You can't really judge your partner for reflecting what our society strongly promotes.